Banned List - Comparison different HL formats

[God_of_War]

There's another option nobody mentioned yet: Proxies. Being able to prox those uber-expensive cards means that everyone can play them.

[Sturmgott]

In my opinion proxies should NEVER be allowed. If you can neither afford, nor borrow a card - so what? You simply don't play it! This is how our world works... almost. You can still play EVERY legal card e.g. in our online league.

If you want to play a game that's completely fair, go play chess. Those who have struggled hard and worked for their set of expensive cards should NEVER be punished by having to play vs. proxies.

Allowing proxies is nothing less than the beginning of the end of the game.

[so_not]

In my opinion proxies should NEVER be allowed. If you can neither afford, nor borrow a card - so what? You simply don't play it! This is how our world works... almost. You can still play EVERY legal card e.g. in our online league.

If you want to play a game that's completely fair, go play chess. Those who have struggled hard and worked for their set of expensive cards should NEVER be punished by having to play vs. proxies.

Allowing proxies is nothing less than the beginning of the end of the game.

And yet you do allow proxies in the form of CE and other non tournament legal -sets. (These are not allowed by organizers in Finland any more)


I consider Highlander as eternal format by heart so in my opinion it would make no sense to ban Portal sets. In that manner I agree with Sturmgott that you should not punish players for making the investment.
I also strongly think that all legality and banning policies should somehow relate to the DCI's procedures. Of course not all banlists should be alike but if a card is banned in Legacy and/or Singleton or restricted in Vintage it's effect on this format should be continuously re-evalued. I'm actually quite happy with the banlist right now but also think that Will and Jar would not have very deep impact. Combo decks nowadays (like hightide, pattern-hulk, aluren or even ub-thopterdepths) are much better than those old TPS versions and still they don't produce any kind of problem whatsoever. Mystical and Imperial Seal should stay banned anyway, LED is a bit so-so, Enlightened might actually be a bit dangerous since it fetches Thopter-combo pieces.

[LasH]

The instant tutor's are broken. I think they all should stay banned. I also dont like worldy tutor in the format, since it does nearly the same as the other tutors in specific decks. Since creatures get better and better in every set, you can tutor winoptions like staxx tutored win options with mystical and enlightned (gaddock, MagusofMoon, etb effects which turn the bord or just the last dmg you need).

About yawgmoth's will..Gesus..How can ppl even talk about that card. It should stay in the deepest room of the banhouse. There is a reason why the card got reprinted for 8cc in the most recent set. YW is still broken in highlander. Regrowth trades 1:1, YW will ALWAYS trade at least 2:1 (Land + Spell) or in most cases..even better or even straight win the game.

I would love to see Portal 3 cards banned. The reduced redundancy is what makes highlander special to me, too. Futhermore its ridiculous to force ppl to buy an armageddon for 120 euro, Wildfire for 40 Euro or Earthquake for 70 Euro. (Yes force. thats the argument on the Library ban-since u always wanna run the best cards for your deck, and armageddon is for example a option in every aggro deck, staxx, firesgeddon, so u wanna run 2 copies there).

But on the other hand, we have a pretty stable meta right now. Its kinda healthy thanks to the lftl ban.

I agree on putting memory jar on the "watch list" at least.

So conclusion:

Stay banned/ban: YW, MT, ET, P3 Cards
Unban: Memory Jar

[Sturmgott]

And yet you do allow proxies in the form of CE and other non tournament legal -sets. (These are not allowed by organizers in Finland any more)

In my opinion it makes a huge difference whether you have a clearly defined list of proxies - which have all been PRODUCED by WotC! - or whether you open the box of "How does a proxy have to be made?" - "Written with a soft felt pen all over it, or printed?" - "How does a tournament organizer make sure proxies cannot be 'felt' because it is thicker/thinner/, more/less bendable...?"

Apart from that - IE/CE have been legal from the very beginning of this HL 'movement' as well as all Portal sets - long before WotC allowed the latter for tournament play in Eternal Formats, even long before these were even called so. This is an absolute CORE rule of HL and in my opinion absolutely not a matter of discussion at any point in time.

[MMD]

BANNING/WATCHLIST:
Mana Drain - Having this on turn two is too often good game.
Demonic Tutor - Imperial Seal is banned and this one is allowed? Best card in your deck, always.
Gifts Ungiven - giving you 2/4 of your best cards in your deck on instant speed cannot be fair. Having Witness/Regrowth in the pile is unfair.
Natural Order - 3 turn "win" way too often
Sensei, DT - just because this card needs too much time and Highlander already has time issues.  Fetchlands are annoying enough...

I have very seldomly lost a game where I resolved one of the first four cards mentioned. Yes, all cards are Combo/Control and would create an even more creature focused metagame but they are overpowered and often unfun. ...and I am a Control player 4 Life...

UNBAN:

Trinisphere? - Just broken with Workshop IMO. But I am also fine with it on the list.

I would NEVER EVER unban Yawgoth´s Win as I am too experienced with it and know what can be done with this card (former Vintage player).

I don´t know for Memory Jar but it will be another "good game" card for Staxx. Is this requested? Perhaps we should give it a try, but is it necessary for the format?

P3K:
Banning cards because of price reasons is not what I would like to see. The Library was banned because of winning the Control Mirror by itself.

CE Proxies:
These cards are still proxies for me. I would like to see the ban of all CE Cards but can life with the current situation. Its just another factor where people laugh at our format.

[so_not]

I would NEVER EVER unban Yawgoth´s Win as I am too experienced with it and know what can be done with this card (former Vintage player).

I don´t know for Memory Jar but it will be another "good game" card for Staxx. Is this requested? Perhaps we should give it a try, but is it necessary for the format?

About yawgmoth's will..Gesus..How can ppl even talk about that card. It should stay in the deepest room of the banhouse. There is a reason why the card got reprinted for 8cc in the most recent set. YW is still broken in highlander. Regrowth trades 1:1, YW will ALWAYS trade at least 2:1 (Land + Spell) or in most cases..even better or even straight win the game.

These are not valid arguments against Will. Why do you think the card is bonkers? What does it actually do in any existing or non-existing deck that is considered so utterly broken? If your argument was something like: "IMO Gifts for Grim Discovery, Will, Vampire Hexmage and Dark Depths will break the format" -for example then you would at least have some substance to support your opinion.

On top of that Staxx is pretty awful deck so that should not be a deciding factor.

[Tiggupiru]

Enlightened might actually be a bit dangerous since it fetches Thopter-combo pieces.

If we are making Thopter-combo part of the reason not to unban ET, I'd like to point out that Gifts finds the whole combo by itself.


And to those who are scared shitless by the Will: It's sick in vintage because of absurd powerlevel of certain cards, and easy access to fast mana. No lotuses, moxen, Recall, multiple Dark Rituals and GushGushGush/Fastbond in HL.

[coldcrow]

I don't get the fuss over Will neither. You should really play a bit of Vintage to see why it is named Yawgwin there.
Tiggu said it: fast mana, cheap tutors, recall, gush.

Now examine what we ahev in our format:
- 2 black rits, a few red ones, petal, 3 bad moxen (which have to get into the grave before)
- DT, worldly, call, fabricate, idyllic, grim
- BS, ideas unbound, meditate, whisper and so on.

mana is the limiting factor there, so the only deck which can really abuse YW will be TPS. And please, TPS is hardly good at this time.
The other deck would be MBC, and yes mbc is not tier 1.

Imho the real reason why it is dangerous would be that the manaramp decks will get another huge CA / I win button card.

[so_not]

If we are making Thopter-combo part of the reason not to unban ET, I'd like to point out that Gifts finds the whole combo by itself.

Gifts is a one card combo by itself and obviously the best tutor of all time. I can't think of any better reasons for ET to be banned and thopter-combo is already quite easy to get online.

[MMD]

Enlightenend Tutor - is at least another 2nd turn Oath of Druids. Who wants that?
Yawgmoth´s Will - I will not participate on a discussion about the power level of this card because it is O B V I O U S , also in Highlander

[Nastaboi]

Mana Drain - Having this on turn two is too often good game.
Demonic Tutor - Imperial Seal is banned and this one is allowed? Best card in your deck, always.
Gifts Ungiven - giving you 2/4 of your best cards in your deck on instant speed cannot be fair. Having Witness/Regrowth in the pile is unfair.
Natural Order - 3 turn "win" way too often
Sensei, DT - just because this card needs too much time and Highlander already has time issues.  Fetchlands are annoying enough...

I have very seldomly lost a game where I resolved one of the first four cards mentioned.

Just FYI, I've kept some record and Gifts has won thus far roughly 80 % games where it's resolved while Demonic has won barely over 60 %. (Jace, the Mind Sculptor has impressive 100 % win percentage, but that's only ten sample games.) I can keep record for NO also if you want to.

And honestly, I dare anyone to construct a deck that abuses Will and is even remotely good. Just tossing Will in some top tier deck does not count, it has to be a bomb in that deck, and better wincon than e.g. planeswalkers.

And people, please please stop being so absolute, especially you who write in caps.

[LasH]

And honestly, I dare anyone to construct a deck that abuses Will and is even remotely good. Just tossing Will in some top tier deck does not count, it has to be a bomb in that deck, and better wincon than e.g. planeswalkers.

Why would you construct a deck around will? You auto-include it in every black deck. I think its comparebale to mind-twist. Its simply always good, simply to splash.And lets dont start the discussion about counter or grave removal). You dont build a deck around certain cards, they are simply set, because they are so good that they win by itself no matter what your deck goes for. Any blue deck without Gifts? Do u need to build around gifts? Do u need to build around Ancestral in Vintage? Do u need to build around Jace 2.0? And after those, again: Do u need to build around YW?

And its even better than the named ones, bc it can bring back them all at once. No we dont need another "i win alone" card. Rather ban jace2.0 and gifts, too.

[kasta]

I have been playing HL now for several years. I think that the target of any format is to have it as stabile as possible. In that sense I feel that the banning of cards should take into account real situations and decks. The format changes at least a bit 4 times a year, this means every time a new set comes out. Just because some card was broken in 1999, 2006 or 2009 does not mean that it still is. I would like to see some fact to support the fact that will should not be banned. Of course the effect is a powerful one but I feel that this format has other effects that are at least as broken as the effect of Will.

My opinion is to unban it. I feel that a MBC deck would be much better then and that it still would not make the deck "the deck to beat". I also feel that Jace 2.0 or Mana Drain on the same power level as Will. Natural Order and Wasteland are in my opinion far better cards than Will, but I still would not ban them.

I am sure that there are situations where Will will win you the game, but that's the situation with other cards as well. I hate the fact that some people only talk using words like ALWAYS and NEVER. Magic as a game and HL as a format is constantly changing and that should be taken into account. If Will is too broken in this format then so be it, but I will not belive it until I see some decklists/playtest results. Just because it was broken in the past or other formats is no excuse. Facts count.

What comes to proxies in general, I feel that CE and the likes are fine. I really don't care if you have proxied your deck and I have spent some hundred euros on mine. I obtain my cards for myself and not because of others. In tournaments though I would prefer people playing with genuine cards.

[Nastaboi]

LasH: Although I appreciate that you too see the problem with Gifts, most time Will does not win the game by itself like it. Usually it's just bad Regrowth.

But don't take my word on it, I will toss Will in every deck I have right now and see if it wins every time. (Yes they all play black already splashing Demonic.)

BTW, you DO need to build around Ancestral in Vintage. If you don't, you won't be the one drawing extra cards during the game.