Highlander Magic

this is currentlu my deck. i´ve already looked at some decks at magicplayer.org, and took some ideas..

Creatures
  1 Loxodon Hierarch
  1 Shadowmage Infiltrator
  1 Eternal Witness
  1 Etched Oracle
  1 Solemn Simulacrum
  1 Exalted Angel
  1 Flametongue Kavu
  1 Eternal Dragon
  1 Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir
  1 Venser, Shaper Savant
  1 Trygon Predator
  1 Academy Rector
  1 Mystic Snake

Spells
  1 Sensei's Divining Top
  1 Regrowth
  1 Dissipate
  1 Mortify
  1 Chainer's Edict
  1 Swords to Plowshares
  1 Fire/Ice
  1 Dromar's Charm
  1 Lightning Helix
  1 Brainstorm
  1 Vindicate
  1 Demonic Tutor
  1 All Suns' Dawn
  1 Dismiss
  1 Impulse
  1 Decree of Justice
  1 Lim-Dul's Vault
  1 Gifts Ungiven
  1 Concentrate
  1 Allied Strategies
  1 Collective Restraint
  1 Pernicious Deed
  1 Darksteel Ingot
  1 Tithe
  1 Evasive Action
  1 Starstorm
  1 Voidslime
  1 Gilded Lotus
  1 Fact or Fiction
  1 Debtors' Knell
  1 Mystical Teachings
  1 Future Sight
  1 Undermine
  1 Absorb
  1 Worldly Counsel
  1 Enlightened Tutor
  1 Eladamri's Call
  1 Damnation
  1 Moat
  1 Sylvan Scrying
  1 Mana Drain
  1 Krosan Grip
  1 Pact of Negation
  1 Personal Tutor
  1 Phyrexian Furnace
  1 Holistic Wisdom
  1 Wrath of God
  1 Counterspell

Lands
  1 Bayou
  1 Reflecting Pool
  1 Forest
  1 Mountain
  1 Savannah
  1 Tundra
  1 Scrubland
  1 Coastal Tower
  1 Nantuko Monastery
  1 Kor Haven
  1 Island
  1 Tropical Island
  1 Volrath's Stronghold
  1 Wasteland
  1 Swamp
  1 Plains
  1 Taiga
  1 Underground Sea
  1 Volcanic Island
  1 Hallowed Fountain
  1 Temple Garden
  1 Watery Grave
  1 Maze of Ith
  1 Krosan Verge
  1 Rishadan Port
  1 Badlands
  1 Plateau
  1 Karakas
  1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
  1 Flooded Strand
  1 Wooded Foothills
  1 Mountain Valley
  1 Rocky Tar Pit
  1 Bloodstained Mire
  1 Grasslands
  1 Bad River
  1 Polluted Delta
  1 Flood Plain
  1 Windswept Heath

comments and suggestions are welcomed :)
some points to consider:
debtor knell VS trechery
intuition VS all sun dawns
chainer edict VS diabolict edict
few winnning conditions -> i some times feel i lack some wining conditions (palynchron?)

p.s how do i put his on mws file?

thks

// Edit by Admin: I have converted it to MWS format and attached it to your post.

First of all: Your deck looks good already, but maybe a bit "old-fashioned". Where is Life from the Loam? This card is simply too good not to be played in control decks that have access to green mana.

And with Life, Intuition vs. All Sun's Dawn is no longer a question. The downside of this is of course that your deck will likely mutate to a LftL.deck once you have access to its power. And that is also the downside of LftL being permitted at all in the format.

If you want to play it in this classic style, I personally think that Venser is not good enough. Replace it by the ever-notorious Withered Wretch which is invaluably strong in the current format.

Also, Undermine is not a very good counter in this deck. Its bonus ability just is not very valuable in a control deck. I'd suggest you play Hinder instead which is a) easier to cast and b) generates a more useful side-effect in alot of matchups.

Next, where is Isochron Scepter? You have 13 imprintable spells in your deck (sure not all make sense on the Scepter).

Although we slowed the environment alot with our last banning decisions, he format is still fast enough to suggest you play more cheap spells like Mana Leak >> Dismiss. Also Concentrate and Allied Strategies should be replaced. In my opionion you don't have enough early answers to creatures; I'd suggest adding Lighning Bolt and Sudden Shock here.

just my 2 cents for today :)

ok, i dont know a lot about the current metagame, so its kind of hard to change my deck according to it, however some of your points are correct, sometimes i lack early answers.

i´ll test the lftl, i´ve already thought about it. venser is both a counter or a bouncer, plus if u have karakas in play its a nice combo. withered wrethc i´ve played it, but it was usually killed (like i said before, i dont know the metagame, so withered depends on this...)

i´m a bit unlucky with the scepter.. early versions of this deck, runned it, however it was usually countered/disechanted.. or i would end up with a scepter in my hand and no 2 mana instants =/

for teh concentrate/allied strategies i think you´re right.. especially allied strategies, its only good mid/late game, but it's always fun drawing 5 :D, but i think i'll change it to a sudden shock

another question is tolaria west VS sylvan scrying? sylvan is only 2 mana, but the tolaria can be a land if i´m mana screw and it can also fetch pact of negation.

well. i´m going to make some changes considering the things you´ve said, and then i´ll see.. :)

I play a 5C Control deck myself and hope I can help you a bit.
First of all I like your decklist and think it is pretty good, but according to Frank I think some important cards are missing. Especially Life from the Loam is such a powerful card that I think it is a "must play".

Below I'll post my decklist and try to give some reasons for the cardchoices:

Lands:     Underground Sea     Volcanic Island     Tundra     Tropical Island     Plateau     Scrubland     Savannah     Taiga     Bayou     Badlands     Windsweapt Heath     Polluted Delta     Flooded Strand     Wooded Foothills     Bloodstaind Mire     Watery Grave     Hallowed Fountain     Breeding Pool     Stean Vents     Godless Shrine     Karakas     Flagstones of Trokair     Tolaria West     Rishadan Port     Wasteland     Volrath's Stronghold     Academy Ruins     Maze of Ith     Kor Haven     Mishra's Factory     Fairy Conclave     Nantuko Monestary     Secluded Steppe     Lonely Sandbar     Plains     Island     Snow-Convered Island

Creatures:     Loxodon Hierarch     Shadowmage Infiltrator     Trygon Predator     Lightning Angel     Etched Oracle     Wall of Blossoms     Eternal Witness     Flametongue Kavu     Eternal Dragon     Academy Rector     Exalted Angel     Tinket Mage     Meloku the Clouded Mirror     Spells:     Demonfire     Rolling Earthquake     Life from the Loam     Crop Rotation     Vindicate     Fire // Ice     Hide // Seek     Lightning Helix     Pernicious Deed     Absorb     Darkblast     Diabolic Edict     Damnation     Demonic Tutor     Tainted Pact

Brainstorm     Intuition     Deep Analysis     Mana Leak     Evasive Action     Worldly Counsel     Stroke of Genius     Force of Will     Decree of Silence     Muddle the Mixture     Counterbalance     Remand     Repulse     Impuls     Mana Servance     Fact or Fiction        Mana Drain                       Gifts Ungiven     Counterspell     Enlighted Tutor     Tithe     Swords to Plowshares     Seal of Cleansing     Decree of Justice     Moat     Wrath of God     Gilded Lotus     Goblin Charbelcher     Zuran Orb     Scroll Rack     Isochron Scepter     Mox Diamond     Senseis Divining Top     Phyrexian Furnace     Engineered Explosives

Ok this is the complete list. There are some cards in the deck for testing . I hope some of you can give me some advice or feedback on me list (and I know there are 102 cards in the deck J I could not decide which one to cut). I’d like to some reasons for my cardchoices and try to point out some critical cards.

Lands:

• I think two cycle lands are enough but I consider playing Horizon Canopy to support Life from the Loam.
• I’m just testing Academy Ruis and so far I like it a lot in Control vs. Cntrol matchups. But I did not play against aggro decks enough to say whether the fact that it produces colorless mana is a problm or not.
• Furthermore I’m thinking about adding Treetop Village, but I don’t like the fact that it comes into play tapped and producing green mana.
• Tolaria West is also in the “testing phase”. I try to find out whether it is good enough to search cards like Maze, Engineered Explosives, Zuran Orb and Volrath's Stronghold or not. I would appreciate if someone could post his results of testig here.

In your list Mythrandir I don’t really like the Mirage "Fetchlands" and Costal Tower because sometimes they are too slow. And I played Tabernacle for a long time and then decided to cut it, but I’m not sure about it. With Crop Rotation, Life from the Loam, Gifs and Intuiton it may be goog enough to get into the deck. Maybe you can tell me something about your results of testing it in different matchups.

Creatures:

• In my opinion Trinket Mage is a very powerful creature. It can fetch graveyardremoval, lifegain, Sensei's Diving Top or Explosives. You can also think about playing Pithing Needle against Survival, Penoptic MIrror or Seat of the Synod to fix your mana. But I don't think these two options are good enough
• Against aggro decks I like Wall of Blossoms but I think it’s more personal preferences.
• I don’t really like Solemn, but maybe it is good. It also supports the Academy Ruins quiet well so i should consider adding it again.
  

Also I think there are not enough creatures in the deck to make Teferi really powerful. My experience is that he cost too much and it’s not really worth protecing it when he hits the board. But again I’d like to hear your results on testing.
Last but not least I think Mystic Snake is not quiet good. For a creature it is too expensive and does not bring that much advantage against aggro decks and for a counter it’s too expenive. But I've also heard other opinons and think it depends on personal preferences.

Spells:
Here I'd like to discuss the differences and some cards I’m not sure about.

• Counterbalance is one those cards that I’m not sure about. Sometimes it performs quiet well and sometimes it sucks. I think it is just playable with a lot of “support cards” like Scroll Rack, Brainstorm, Top and Muddle the Mixture. I would be happy about other opinions and some help here. Thanks
• Card draw is another problem I think. I discussed it Frank via ICQ and I drew the conclusion to play Stroke of Genius, Fact or Fiction and Deep Analysis. I also considered playing Careful Consideration. What do you thins is best?
• The combo (Mana Servance and Goblin Charbelcher) got into the deck after I read the results of the tournament in Düsseldorf where a 5CC deck finished first playing these cards. I like the cards so far, but I’ll go on testing against aggro. Also Academy Ruins got into the deck because I’d like to support the combo a bit.
• Darkblast also got into the deck after Frank and I discussed it via ICQ. He thinks it’s very powerul against RDW and UG-Aggrocontrol versions. I tested against RG Beatz and  now I'm convinced that Darkblast ist really good.
• Zuran Orb is another card I’m testing. It’s not that powerful anymore after Balance has been banned. But the possibility to fetch it with Trinked Mage and Tolaria West seems good enough.

If there are other cards I forgot just ask me and I’ll try to give reasons for playing it.

I also agree with Frank that cards like Concentrate and Allied Strategies are not good enough to be in the deck. But I’m going to test All Suns Dawn. I also support Franks opinion that you better play some “cheap” counters like Mana Leak and Evasive Action in stead of  Dismiss and Undermine. Also Force of Will is missing in your deck.
I think Holistic Wisdom seems very powerful. But my experience showed that it’s not. Sometimes it’s just too slow or too hard to cast. The same thing is true for Debtors' Knell as well I think. Even though it can be really good with Academy Rector.
In times of massive Land Destruciton in decks like Stax or even in White Weenie decks Collective Restraint is a card I don’t like that much any more. I played it just some time ago and Frank conviced me to cut it.

Ok that was loooong post. I hope someone read it.
I look forward to your replies and hope for a good discussion about this decktype.

Thanks Markus

first of all, thanks for the post and opnions, i´ll try to cover all the points u mentioned :)well, lets start :)

1) the coastal tower in my deck is a mistake... i must have loaded an old MWS file and forgot to replace that :)

2)solemn in your case is not that good, because you only play 3 basic lands, so perhaps there are better things :)

3) treetop i tested and its not that good and neither is faerie.. every time i turn these lands they are killed =/ the only one i seem to keep alive ist monastery.

4) tolaria west im testing it VS sylvan scrying. i think its important to have a tutor for lands, because of maze, tabernacle, volrath, monastery, etc... i think the tolaria might be better especially if you play zuran, explosives, pact of negation

5) FoW i´ve tested and i either i was very unlucky or my dck was good for it.. i changed it to pact of negation and the pact is way better, at least for me :)

6)trinket is good if u have things to fetch, and i really dont have that many 1 artefacts. but wall of blossom is great, but i dont really know how to fit that one in my deck...

7) the mirage fetchs are great in my opinin, they avoid a lot of color screw problems and they bring a lot of card advantage in midgames, avoiding too many land draw.

8) tabernacle is very good especially in WW decks or similar.. u really should keep it in, especially if, like me, u play urborg tomb.. :)
intuition, LFTL, gifts.. tolaria west make it easy to put it into play. By the way i´ve already put LFTL and its great.. :)

9) teferi is great.. the flash ability and the "denial" effect for the oponent is great, and also with the mystical teachings (which is a powerfu instant tutor) i thinkteferi is quite good. also legendary creatres are great in these decks because of karakas, which protects them. i also play venser because of karakas.

10) mystic snake i´ve never had that many problemas casting it.. and it gives a blocker, i might be willing to trade it for another counter, but i had good experiences with it.

11)i really dont like counterbalance... it think is a very random based effect, unless u have a top in play. i dont like the scroll rack, i´ve played.. and sometimes it really doesnt do anything.. =/

12) draw.. i prefer concentrate VS deep analysis. deep, that 3 life flashback against aggro is really bad =/

13) u should also have starstorm (perhaps instead of rolling earthquake).. its mass removal at instant speed, and its has cycling, which is good in case of control deck.

14) severance and charbelcher seems a good combo, but i dont like it personally because i think it goes agaistn the philosophy of my deck :P

15) darkblast seems quite strong against aggro decks. :) i might consider putting it in, instead of mortify.

16) u should play krosan grip, the split second ability is a killer :)

17) collective is great agaisnt aggro decks. its like a second moat, the chances of getting one of theses is better than only having one :P

18) debtor knell is one of my winning conditions, but sometimes its just a dead card in my hand, í´m thinking of replacing it by treachery or take possession. holistic wisdom is very good and it not that hard to cast, the fact that u can play the ability at instant speed is very, very good.

well, i think i´ve covered all the points.. now i´ll talk abou your deck a little more.

Lands:
nothing to say here... do u have color screw problems?

creatures:
almost identical to mine... except the lightning angel (never tested it). meloku seems good.
i´m thinking of testing aeon the chronicler, what do you think?

spells:
i´ve talked about starstorm VS roling, u should try it.. the instant factor is great. tainted pact is very good card, i´m also thinking of replacing it, instead of lim dul vault.

........................i´ve got to go now........ but i´ll finished this later.......... sorry...

but i´ll gladly keep discussing cards and options for 5C control :)

Hi
Here are some new points on your thoughts:

• I also thought about Aeon Cronicler. He can make the Control vs Control matchups much better but seems to be a dead card against aggro decks. Maybe I'll try it instead of L. Angel.
• I don't think Starstorm is better than R. Earthquake. The only card that comes into my mind which starstorm could be better against is Decree of Justice. But in Control vs. Control you'll cycle Starstorm and don't keep it because you fear the decre I think.
• Maybe I should cut Faery Conclave but I like the Manlands a lot because if you take the boardcontrol you want to have fast damage. There's not always a good creature in your hand to kill the opponent, so the lands do a very good job.
• 3 basic lands are enough with solemn. I just wanted to say that L. Angel for example is a much better Turn 4 drop than Solemn. Even Aeon Cronicler is better than Solemn I think.
• I don't agree with your opinion on Force of Will. It's just always a really powerful card. Pact is worse than Force because it's impossible to cast Pact in the early game and in later turns you can also hardcast FoW.
• Yeah the Mage is powerful with some artifact. I think if you play Tolaria west you should test Zuran Orb/Ivory Tower/E. Explosives and Phyrexian Furnace or at least some of them. I'm sure you'll like that guy.
• f you play Gifts and Intuition I can't understand why you like Concentrate more than Deep Analysis. It's just a cards you can search with gifts beside Life and some lands. I like it a lot. And even the 3 lives for Flashback are not that bad against aggro. The risk of not flashbacking it is worth drawing only two instead of 3 cards.
• And last but not least Collective Restaint is really good against RG. But against WW sometimes it just sucks against Armageddon, Ravages of War or Cataclysm. Furthermore it's not that good against other creature based control decks because in the late game your opponent can afford it paying 5 to attack with Hierarch for example.

Thanks
Markus

hey,

i´ve run deep analysis on earlier versions of my deck and it just didnt seem that good. there were lots of times when i couldn flashback.. and deep isnt that good with intuition, there are far better cards to search, that that :)

FoW i know its very powerful, but i actually prefer pact, i had better results with it, but i know it jus my preference.

i´m also thinking of replacing solemn, the only advantage VS l. angel is the cost.. solemn is colorless and can fetch me a land.. perhaps i´ll replace it with wall of blossoms

collective restraint is by far worse than moat, but i like to have those 2 to increase the odds of getting 1 th a game.

by the way, u should put eladmri call, its a very powerful tutor, and also mystical teachings which is quite good fetched via intuition or gifts.

i´ll change my deck a little bit, and then have a little go at MWS games.

if you play MWS, i would gladly play against you :)

Is it useful to play the Decree of Silence just for the Acedemy Rector? ...i mean if you draw the decree its the 6cc cantrip counter or you will need to hardcast it for 8 mana  :o ..is that realy useful?

Quote from: Lotus on 27-08-2007, 11:25:10 AM
Is it useful to play the Decree of Silence just for the Acedemy Rector? ...i mean if you draw the decree its the 6cc cantrip counter or you will need to hardcast it for 8 mana  :o ..is that realy useful?

In my opinion you should have at least some (~2 or 3) good aims for Academy Rector and Decree of Silence is of course a very good one. But there are alternatives as well, e. g. Debtor's Knell, Mirari's Wake, Future Sight, Treachery, or even Privileged Position - i would play maximum two of them (cc5+), it depends which fits best.

In a 5C Control i would play following Enchantments:

Moat
Pernicious Deed
Animate Dead and/or Necromancy
Treachery

maybe Holistic Wisdom, Decree of Silence, Solitary Confinement, Counterbalance, Sterling Grove

Quote from: Vazdru on 27-08-2007, 01:06:49 PM

Quote from: Lotus on 27-08-2007, 11:25:10 AM
Is it useful to play the Decree of Silence just for the Acedemy Rector? ...i mean if you draw the decree its the 6cc cantrip counter or you will need to hardcast it for 8 mana  :o ..is that realy useful?

In my opinion you should have at least some (~2 or 3) good aims for Academy Rector and Decree of Silence is of course a very good one. But there are alternatives as well, e. g. Debtor's Knell, Mirari's Wake, Future Sight, Treachery, or even Privileged Position - i would play maximum two of them (cc5+), it depends which fits best.

In a 5C Control i would play following Enchantments:

Moat
Pernicious Deed
Animate Dead and/or Necromancy
Treachery

maybe Holistic Wisdom, Decree of Silence, Solitary Confinement, Counterbalance, Sterling Grove

i already play debtor and future sight.. privilegd position i just dont think is that good. it doesn actually win me a game =/

as for Decree of silence, i´ve been considering it a long time, but i was avoiding it for it CMC, but once it hits the board, its quite powerful, i´ll have to test it out. i´m currently modifying my deck, so i´ll see if i can fit into the list.

as for counterbalance i think it has very random effect to be included
sterling grove i dont have that many enchantments to include it in, i already have enlightned tutor to search for enchantaments.

as for necromancy i havent tested it, but tha ability to cast it instant and target any graveyard makes it probably a good card...

What about the folloeing cards? :

1. Putrefy and Mortify (both excellent target removel)
2. Regrowth (good alrounder, also good with intuition and gifts)
3. Hinder, Forbid, Dissipate and Droma's Charm (in my opinion all better then absorb)
4. Abeyence (Good cantrip, very very good with sceptar)
5. Disentchant (better then seal, its instant and you can imprint it)
6. Lightning bolt (very good direct damage)
7. Stifle (also an alrounder, that it helpfull against nearly ervery deck

...aren't they worth playing?

Quote from: Lotus on 27-08-2007, 02:35:12 PM
What about the folloeing cards? :

1. Putrefy and Mortify (both excellent target removel)
2. Regrowth (good alrounder, also good with intuition and gifts)
3. Hinder, Forbid, Dissipate and Droma's Charm (in my opinion all better then absorb)
4. Abeyence (Good cantrip, very very good with sceptar)
5. Disentchant (better then seal, its instant and you can imprint it)
6. Lightning bolt (very good direct damage)
7. Stifle (also an alrounder, that it helpfull against nearly ervery deck

...aren't they worth playing?

- my decklist has mortify, regrowth, dissipate, dromar charm and absorb.
- i prefer krosan grip over disenchant.. the split second is awesome.
- there are better direct damage than lightning bolt.. i prefer sudden shock or even incinerate.
- on early verison of my deck i played stifle.. and it was a killer against decrees, storms, deeds, and that kind of stuff.. but against aggro decks it wasnt that good..
- abeyance i never tested it..

I think you should test Abeyence its realy good with the sceptar.

There is one more card i forgot: Repeal. I think its a good card with cantrip, it is able to save your own permanents and to protect you against a pumpt up weene creatures at the start of the game..

• Maybe you are right with Abeyance. I made some changes in my deck yesterday. I added Electrolyze, Mind Stone and Mystical Teachings for Counterbalance, Scroll Rack an Demonfire.
• I cutted Kor Haven cause it's just ot good enough against aggro. I prefer a colored land instead.
• Furthermore I think Necromany is a good idea. I'll test it and then give some more feedback.
• Lightningbolt maybe better than Electrolyse cause it works with scepter. But the cardsdraw is really good.
• I don't like Putrify and Mortify that much. I can't really tell why but I think tehy are not necessary in the deck.

Thanks
Markus

Quote from: MarkusMagic on 27-08-2007, 05:09:44 PM

• Lightningbolt maybe better than Electrolyse cause it works with scepter. But the cardsdraw is really good.

Thanks
Markus

so why not use incinerate? or sudden shock? lightning bolt is not that good in a control deck, there are far better options :) even if you want to imprint it. i havent try electrolyze cause i think its weak =/

by the way, if you like abeyance, why not put that plus orim chant... for the scepter, its not my favourite move.. but its quite good at locking the other guy

I think that Abeyence is far better then Chant. On the one hand it doesn't need double W and on the other hand, if you dont need it, you can just cycle it for 1W.

I still dont understand why incinerate and suddenshock should be better then Lightning Bolt. Tey cost one more to play and their advantage is not that big. I also think that even magma jet is better then sudden shock, because the scry ability is very good.

I play Lightning Bolt, Lightning Helix and Sudden Shock in my 5c Oath.

Lightning Bolt is just plain invaluable, because it it so cheap and does so much damage for just one mana. Lightning Helix is the perfect spell to imprint on a Scepter vs. aggro decks, as it combines two of the most important abilities in that matchup: Removal AND Lifegain. On a Scepter, it also provides the win condition.

Sudden Shock' split second ability just make it so much better than e.g. Incinerate. Sure, it can't kill an elephant token, but: It does kill Psychatog, Wild Mongrel, Mother of Runes (or another creature on the board with her), and like Incinerate, also almost all creatures able to regenerate otherwise. It can also kill a Mishra's Factory that wants to block before it does so.

Sure, the scrying makes Magma Jet also quite desirable, but imho it is simply the next best card to play AFTER these three.

And for that Chant/Abeyance-Discussion: I would't play either of the two any longer atm. They both are best if you are the combo guy (which you aren't) or if you play vs. that combo guy (which after the last banning season you probably won't). The better alternatives atm imho are Shadow of Doubt, or Gilded Light, both being able to "counter" Intuition/Gifts. Besides, Shadow of Doubt can also "counter" fetching lands, rebels, and Survival-activation. Gilded Light provides the advantage of countering burn and discard spells and the like.

Is it possible that you post your 5C-Oath? (I am just interested how you've build it) ..or is it the same one that Frank has already posted?

I have attached my current version to this post. And besides, it may be a bit confusing, but FrankT and Sturmgott are the same person - me :)

Quote from: Lotus on 28-08-2007, 10:46:37 AM
I think that Abeyence is far better then Chant. On the one hand it doesn't need double W and on the other hand, if you dont need it, you can just cycle it for 1W.

I still dont understand why incinerate and suddenshock should be better then Lightning Bolt. Tey cost one more to play and their advantage is not that big. I also think that even magma jet is better then sudden shock, because the scry ability is very good.

i didnt say that chant was better than abeyance.. i said you should probably play the 2 to increase  the odds of drawing it.

as for the "fire" discussion. i´m still convinced that lightning bolt isnt better than incinerate, sudden, and (perhaps?) magma jet. you´re playin a control deck, if you dont have the extra colorless mana to pay for these spells you´re probably having a bad game.. =/
they are all instant, so no diference there, i dont think that 1R instead of R is that important in a control deck, and lightning hasnt any ability. the only way i can see the bolt being better is having it on your opening hand and killing a creature on its first attack..

but that's just my 2cents  :)

Quote from: Sturmgott on 28-08-2007, 01:32:39 PM
I have attached my current version to this post. And besides, it may be a bit confusing, but FrankT and Sturmgott are the same person - me :)

I have looked through it and iam a bit confused about the Wake and the Exploration. What are these two cards important for?
And is Memory Lapse not better then Hinder?
Is Cremate not better then Coffin Purge? Or is that because you can search for the purge with Gifts and Intuition?

And one last thing which I already asked before (but nobody answered  ::)): Isn't Repeal worth playing?

Wake + Decree / Stroke / Disintegrate is very strong, that's why it's included. Exploration is very important for the main plan of the deck, which is rather LftL than Oath.

Memory Lapse is just not good in a pure control deck, and 5c Oath is such a pure control deck. Memory Laps shows its power primarily in aggro-control decks, often being a timewalk in those decks and delaying e.g. a Wrath of God or a Moat for one turn, so the aggrocontrol player has an additional turn in which he can attack with his critters and possibly take evasive action for the upcoming spell which is now known.

As for your question "Cremate vs. Coffing Purge": Cremate surely has the huge advantage of being a cantrip, and as such, being a great Imprint for the Scepter. The advantage of Coffin Purge in this deck is, that the deck plan is either to get Oath running (in which case a Coffin Purge being "milled" into the graveyard in the process is helpful, a Cremate is not), or to get the LftL-engine online. In that case a Coffin Purge dredged into the graveyard... you get the point. In addition to that, it is indeed sometimes helpful to be able to tutor for yard removal with Gifts/Intuition in a simple way. These advantages for me outweighed the Cantrip/Scepter argument.

a few things about the 5c oath..

isnt demonfire better than desintegrate?
whye dont u include krosan reclmation, petriefied field, sterling grove?

and is just 1 fattie enough?

well, these are the questions of player who doesnt know the metagame :P

Quote from: Sturmgott on 28-08-2007, 03:58:53 PM
Exploration is very important for the main plan of the deck, which is rather LftL than Oath.

Ah okay this is also why you play the merchant scroll it also supports the LftL plan.  ;)

Some more questions  ;D :

Is it realy useful to play 4 Basic Lands in a 5 color Deck? I would prefer to play 2 basics (Plains and Island). Or is this so important against the Wasteland-lock? But I think you also have the mox diamond, the Darksteel Ingot and the Gilded Lotus.

You told that Shadow of Doubt is good, but you don't even play it. Wouldn't it be worth playing? It is very strong in the Control Mirror!

Is the Pulse realy better then a simple massremoval like Damnation?

regarding 5c control..

what do you think is best? Court hussar ou Wall of blossoms?

I like Wall of Blosoms more than Court Husar because it has 4 toughness ans is just 2 mana. I think in the three mana slot are better cards. Furthermore there are few burnspells to handle Wall. So ist most often the 2:1 Trade vs RG Beatz for example.

But what do you think about Tarmogyf. It's such a good creature so I think it belongs in here. Or?

Thanks
Markus

I think so too, thamogoyf is a mighty creature even in control decks: It will be big enough to block a lot of creature, as well as it puts a fast clock on the opponent if he can't handel it.

Is the Crucible not good enough to be played? ...I mean you play a lot of fetchies and a Wasteland (with crop rotation to search for it)

Quote from: Lotus on 30-08-2007, 12:55:51 PM
I think so too, thamogoyf is a mighty creature even in control decks: It will be big enough to block a lot of creature, as well as it puts a fast clock on the opponent if he can't handel it.

Is the Crucible not good enough to be played? ...I mean you play a lot of fetchies and a Wasteland (with crop rotation to search for it)

goyf is a possibility, but i´m more inclined to test skyshroud warbeast. it will probably be as big as a goyf, especially against multicolored decks.

as for crucible, i´ve tested and its okay, but i think the combo crucible + wasteland isnt that good in general.. so LTFL is a better option. crucible was easily destroyed.. =/

yeap, i think the wall is better, the court hussar is just slower and gets killed more often.

I think Goyf is much better than War Beast. There are some Decks like WW/WWu/RDW/UG that don't play many nonbasics. So War Beast will be a dead cards agaist these decks. And even in Control Mirrors Creatures are not that important. So I don't see a good reason to play it.

Thanks
Markus

Quote from: Mythrandir on 20-08-2007, 09:39:32 PM
this is currentlu my deck. i´ve already looked at some decks at magicplayer.org, and took some ideas..

Creatures
  1 Loxodon Hierarch
  1 Shadowmage Infiltrator
  1 Eternal Witness
  1 Etched Oracle
  1 Solemn Simulacrum
  1 Exalted Angel
  1 Flametongue Kavu
  1 Eternal Dragon
  1 Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir
  1 Venser, Shaper Savant
  1 Trygon Predator
  1 Academy Rector
  1 Mystic Snake

Spells
  1 Sensei's Divining Top
  1 Regrowth
  1 Dissipate
  1 Mortify
  1 Chainer's Edict
  1 Swords to Plowshares
  1 Fire/Ice
  1 Dromar's Charm
  1 Lightning Helix
  1 Brainstorm
  1 Vindicate
  1 Demonic Tutor
  1 All Suns' Dawn
  1 Dismiss
  1 Impulse
  1 Decree of Justice
  1 Lim-Dul's Vault
  1 Gifts Ungiven
  1 Concentrate
  1 Allied Strategies
  1 Collective Restraint
  1 Pernicious Deed
  1 Darksteel Ingot
  1 Tithe
  1 Evasive Action
  1 Starstorm
  1 Voidslime
  1 Gilded Lotus
  1 Fact or Fiction
  1 Debtors' Knell
  1 Mystical Teachings
  1 Future Sight
  1 Undermine
  1 Absorb
  1 Worldly Counsel
  1 Enlightened Tutor
  1 Eladamri's Call
  1 Damnation
  1 Moat
  1 Sylvan Scrying
  1 Mana Drain
  1 Krosan Grip
  1 Pact of Negation
  1 Personal Tutor
  1 Phyrexian Furnace
  1 Holistic Wisdom
  1 Wrath of God
  1 Counterspell

Lands
  1 Bayou
  1 Reflecting Pool
  1 Forest
  1 Mountain
  1 Savannah
  1 Tundra
  1 Scrubland
  1 Coastal Tower
  1 Nantuko Monastery
  1 Kor Haven
  1 Island
  1 Tropical Island
  1 Volrath's Stronghold
  1 Wasteland
  1 Swamp
  1 Plains
  1 Taiga
  1 Underground Sea
  1 Volcanic Island
  1 Hallowed Fountain
  1 Temple Garden
  1 Watery Grave
  1 Maze of Ith
  1 Krosan Verge
  1 Rishadan Port
  1 Badlands
  1 Plateau
  1 Karakas
  1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
  1 Flooded Strand
  1 Wooded Foothills
  1 Mountain Valley
  1 Rocky Tar Pit
  1 Bloodstained Mire
  1 Grasslands
  1 Bad River
  1 Polluted Delta
  1 Flood Plain
  1 Windswept Heath



thks

-1 mountain
-1 coastal tower
-1 holistic widosm
-1 debtor knell
-1 allied strategies
-1 concentrate       
-1 all suns dawn     
-1 solemn simulacrum 
-1 mortify
-1 undermine
+1 intuition
+1 sudden shock
+1 hide//seek
+1 wall of blossom
+1 mishra factory
+1 lonely sandbar
+1 shred memory
+1 treachery
+1 LFTL
+1 hinder

well, after some matches, and some opinions, i´ve changed these cards.

what about guided passage?

URG
sorcery
Reveal the cards in your library.  An opponent chooses from among them a creature card, a land card, and a noncreature, nonland card.  You put the chosen cards into your hand.  Then shuffle your library.

3 mana, 4 cards, not too bad.. even if its him picking them... the fact that he sees my library is kind of bad, but...

too bad of a card? or should i test it?

what are your opinions of the best drawing card for my deck?
thks

You get only three cards with guided passage. ^^

The best card drawing spells in my opinion are:

1. Fact or Fiction
2. Deep Analysis
3. Skeletal Scrying
4. Stroke of Genius (depending on whether you play Mirari's Wake/Gilded Lotus)

Notabene, we're speaking of card drawing spells here, not card drawing engines. The probably best card drawing engine for 5c Control is Life from the Loam + Cycling Lands.

Quote from: Sturmgott on 13-09-2007, 03:13:15 AM
You get only three cards with guided passage. ^^

The best card drawing spells in my opinion are:

1. Fact or Fiction
2. Deep Analysis
3. Skeletal Scrying
4. Stroke of Genius (depending on whether you play Mirari's Wake/Gilded Lotus)

Notabene, we're speaking of card drawing spells here, not card drawing engines. The probably best card drawing engine for 5c Control is Life from the Loam + Cycling Lands.

hmm.. misread the card..
i already play LFTL + cycle and FOF.
deep analysis i´ve already try it, and really dont like it, but his was before gifts and LFTL..
stroke is good because of instant, perhaps i´ll try this one.

how about ring of oblivion and sower of temptation.. are they worth playing in a 5c control?

Ring of Oblivion is worth playing i think.

Sower ? I would still even prefer Control Magic.

ok, i´ll test the ring then... its just because planeswalkers are annoying.. and i dont have that many options against them..
sower (instead of auras like control magic) was mainly because of volrtah, and eladmari call..

what do you think of horde of nations? you can bring back mulldrifter, shriekmaw, offalsnout, crib swap.
even if you dont get any elemental card in the graveyard, it's still a 5/5 with vigilance, haste, trample. the biggest problem is the 5 colored cost.

well, i havent updated my deck in a long time, so here goes the 5cc post-Alara:

Lands:
Bayou
Reflecting Pool
Forest
Savannah
Tundra
Scrubland
Nantuko Monastery
Tolaria west
Island
Tropical Island
Volrath's Stronghold
Wasteland
Plains
Taiga
Underground Sea
Volcanic Island
Hallowed Fountain
Temple Garden
Watery Grave
Maze of Ith
Krosan Verge
Rishadan Port
Badlands
Plateau
Karakas
The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
Flooded Strand
Wooded Foothills
Bloodstained Mire
Polluted Delta
Windswept Heath
Mishra's Factory (1)
Lonely Sandbar
Vesuva
Secluded Steppe
Breeding Pool
Steam Vents
Flagstones of Trokair
Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

Spells:
Sensei's Divining Top
Regrowth
Dissipate
Swords to Plowshares
Fire/Ice
Dromar's Charm
Lightning Helix
Vindicate
Demonic Tutor
Impulse
Decree of Justice
Gifts Ungiven
Collective Restraint
Pernicious Deed
Darksteel Ingot
Tithe
Evasive Action
Fact or Fiction
Mystical Teachings
Worldly Counsel
Enlightened Tutor
Eladamri's Call
Damnation
Moat
Mana Drain
Krosan Grip
Pact of Negation
Phyrexian Furnace
Wrath of God
Counterspell
Sudden Shock
Intuition
Life from the Loam
Hide/Seek
Shred Memory (jund charm??)
Brainstorm
Crop Rotation
Putrefy
Necromancy
Mortify
Demonfire
Call of the Herd
Engineered Explosives

Creatures:/Planeswalkers:
Tarmogoyf (i´ve accepted that is a must...)
Loxodon Hierarch
Shadowmage Infiltrator
Eternal Witness
Etched Oracle
Exalted Angel
Flametongue Kavu
Eternal Dragon
Venser, Shaper Savant
Trygon Predator
Garruk Wildspeaker
Doran, the Siege Tower
Shriekmaw
Figure of Destiny
Stoic Angel (testing, but almost sure it will stay)
Jace Beleren
Battlegrace Angel (testing)
Glen Elendra Archmage

Green means testing
Red means cards that might get cut

Once again the main problem is aggro, specially things that run btb, pop, blood moon (magus) etc..
Most of you already know (kind of) my deck.. any opinions? suggestions?

First, sorry for the bump, but i had some big (not huge) changes in the deck and a fellow player wanted to see my list.


Lands (38):
Bayou
Reflecting Pool
Forest
Savannah
Tundra
Scrubland
Nantuko Monastery
Tolaria west
Island
Tropical Island
Volrath's Stronghold
Wasteland
Plains
Taiga
Underground Sea
Volcanic Island
Hallowed Fountain
Temple Garden
Maze of Ith
Krosan Verge
Rishadan Port
Badlands
Plateau
Karakas
The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
Flooded Strand
Wooded Foothills
Bloodstained Mire
Polluted Delta
Windswept Heath
Mishra's Factory (1)
Lonely Sandbar
Vesuva
Secluded Steppe
Breeding Pool
Steam Vents
Flagstones of Trokair
Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

mana accel: (5)
darksteel ingot
coalition relic
3x signets (currently figuring out which)

Spells: (40)
Sensei's Divining Top
Regrowth
Dissipate
Swords to Plowshares
Fire/Ice
Dromar's Charm
Lightning Helix
Vindicate
Demonic Tutor
Impulse
Gifts Ungiven
Collective Restraint
Pernicious Deed
Tithe
Evasive Action
Fact or Fiction
Mystical Teachings
Worldly Counsel
Eladamri's Call
Damnation
Moat
Mana Drain
Krosan Grip
Pact of Negation
Phyrexian Furnace
Wrath of God
Counterspell
Sudden Shock
Intuition
Life from the Loam
Hide/Seek
Shred Memory
Brainstorm
Crop Rotation
Putrefy
Necromancy
Mortify
Demonfire
Engineered Explosives

Creatures:/Planeswalkers (17):
Tarmogoyf
Loxodon Hierarch
Eternal Witness
Etched Oracle
Exalted Angel
Flametongue Kavu
Eternal Dragon
Venser, Shaper Savant
Trygon Predator
Garruk Wildspeaker
Doran, the Siege Tower
Shriekmaw
Figure of Destiny
Jace Beleren
Glen Elendra Archmage
Quasali pridemage
kitchen finks

Green = new additions

Since the new Fetchlands are confirmed, you could plan with them too.
Furthermore I would play Baneslayer Angel. In Control it should be better than Exalted. I don't know if you should play both, but I think one should be enough.
As you surely know, I am playing the Dimir and the Azorious Signet and the UB and the UW Talisman.

Quote from: Georg B on 10-09-2009, 06:25:53 PM
Since the new Fetchlands are confirmed, you could plan with them too.
Furthermore I would play Baneslayer Angel. In Control it should be better than Exalted. I don't know if you should play both, but I think one should be enough.
As you surely know, I am playing the Dimir and the Azorious Signet and the UB and the UW Talisman.

Yeap, i've been thinking of the fetchs.. but 10 seem a bit too much, i think i'll add 1/2 (probably change some).
Baneslayer in my opinion is worse. Exalted is easily cast turn 3 and unmoprhed and attacking on turn 4, baneslayer only attacks on the 6th turn. But it think these are two very situational cards. I think i'll stick with exalted, but i was very tempted at adding that angel, but i'm trying to avoid high CMC, for know.
I was thinking of azoriuis (definitely) simic and selesnya

I'd play all of them!
They provide each color of mana and the possibility to fetch for basics.
I think they will push 5c.

Quote from: Georg B on 11-09-2009, 01:14:37 PM
I'd play all of them!
They provide each color of mana and the possibility to fetch for basics.
I think they will push 5c.

really don't know. i´ll have to test with 10 and then see. 10 fetchs = 10 damage, qhich vs aggro isn't that great.
Also it cuts out lands and i have sometimes difficult to drop 4-5 lands in a row.. =/ which is terrible. I'll have to test them, but with no hurry, because they will be quite expensive, i'll have to get them slowly :P

Anyone else has an opinion on this? All 10 fetchs?

I would play 10 fetchlands in a heartbeat. In fact, I will play 10 fetchen in almost every one of my decks. I would try to include some SHM-EVE filters as well, they are IMO better than RGD shock duals. They also help to manage difficult mana costs like that of Cryptic Command's.

Quote from: Nastaboi on 11-09-2009, 05:58:51 PM
I would play 10 fetchlands in a heartbeat. In fact, I will play 10 fetchen in almost every one of my decks. I would try to include some SHM-EVE filters as well, they are IMO better than RGD shock duals. They also help to manage difficult mana costs like that of Cryptic Command's.

ok, interesting. I'll give it a definitive test on all 10 fetchs. Filters i test them and prefered shocks for the sake of being fetched (tithe, eternal dragon ,fetchs, krosan.. etc)

Ok, I am working on a 5CC as well; in fact, my decklist is quite similar to yours.
Here are the things, that "bother" me most about your version.


I really don't see how LftL helps in this deck - sure, it's a great card, but cycle lands generally make this deck too slow for the RDW matchup. I have tried to play with it, but every time I start dredging, i find myself flushing vital options down the toilet... But that's just me and i could be wrong^^

Secondly, you are playing too many non basic lands and too few basics. You should definitely be playing each basic land card once in this deck; here is why: Since Magus of the Moon came out, you have 3 really, really bad kills to your deck being Back to Basics, Magus of the Moon and Bloodmoon; what I like to do for this reason, is to fetch a couple of basics really early, to avoid this sort of screw.
Cut things like Urborg and Vesuva and add the Basics.
I would also suggest playing the 5 new fetchs; they can make this deck faster in a way you can't even imagine if you haven't tried them out - they are a really good mana fix, they get you those basic lands AND they improve your card quality (less lands = better draw). If you don't know how to add those new fetchs, go for the Cycle lands first (this is, if you will follow my oppinion on the LftL).

Thirdly, you are not stretching the "more creatures with positive effects instead of spells" - part. Now, let me go into this one in a slight more detailed manner: I see you are playing the Archmage, Pridemage and the Predator. Also, there is Figure of Destiny, Venser. I like the Pridemage idea - i haven't actually played it yet, but i will most certainly try it out now. Where i would differ from your choices are here:
Cut the Archmage - it sucks vs RDW (too expensive) and vs RG Beats (no creature spells) and these are definitely your toughest matchups imo. Instead, add Sower of Temptation; it works great vs Aggro and Burn, because they will have to waste a spell to get rid of him. If you can manage to keep him in for one turn, you can usually really deal some nice damage with him as well. Great play in this deck.
Cut the Predator and add Wall of Blossoms - I know, two different purposes, but the wall is really the better choice, especially vs ugly first turn drops such as lackeys and kird apes or even Wild Nacs...
Lose the Figure and add Rhox Warmonk. Don't even ask me, why. I can't believe, the Monk hasn't come up yet; he is one of the best 3 - drops in the game and he gives you what you need the most: Life and a good blocker as well as a resistance of 4, which is immune to most burn spells.
Next: Lose Jace and add Liliana. She is really a bad bitch - if you can put her on the table, in almost 85 to even 90% you are sure to win the game. Force him to play instants or just get rid of expensive spells he couldn't use the other turn and then get whatever you need with her second ability.
I also would suggest you cut the Flametounge Kavu and add Desolation Giant; yeah, i get the extra cost is a bit harsh, but he can really come in handy sometimes.
Lose the Doran and add another 5cc god creature - the Baneslayer Angel. Works. Every time i play it. Etched Oracle is nice, keep it.
Then... where the hell is the Academy Rector?? Moat, Restraint, Treachery, Deed - need i say more??
Solemn is also a must, especially if you take my advice on the basic land issue.
I'll probably remember another load of creatures i forgot to put here, right when i post this, but so far so good i suppose...

Proceeding... Let's take a look at the main build; spells etc.
Cut Crop Rotation (no need at all - you have 10 fetchs and loads of other land searching options) and add Diabolic Edict - helps vs anything from Superman to the Ascetic to that lame ass Oath Akroma/Spirit of the Night or even vs a tinkered Colossus.
Treachery - a MUST in this deck. Get it with the Rector or just have fun taking over that Boggart Ram Gang or whatever annoys you the most for FREEEEEEE :D
Why play Sudden Shock over Path to Exile? The alternative is cheaper and works every time.
Reduce your Mana Acceleration to 3 rather than 5: I would say Ingot, Relic and Mindstone are the best picks here.
Then: Demonfire... Not a good pick. The reason the older builds by Jan Ludwig used Star storm rather than Earthquake is so simple: In Control Mirros, the Manlands always win the game. Every goddamn time. Especially lame to play vs Mono Blue Control, that uses Urza's Factory... Ouch; if you don't have moat or restraint, you are royally f*cked.
With Star storm, just kill his little manlands or, if he doesn't have any, draw a card instead.
If you add the Rector, go for the Seal instead of the Krosan Grip.
I'm glad to see, that you agree with my secret choice to not play the Decree of Justice in this deck - it's sooo expensive and you hardly ever get more than two angels if even. Again, rather add a nice Lifelinker instead.
Too much Graveyard Hate. Yes, by too much, i mean 2 cards. Reduce to one and add Holistic Wisdom instead. Great card in this deck.

Hmm, ok, so far, that's all i can really think of... if I have some other ideas, I'll let you know.


Take care, Loessli

Ok, thanks for the input, it's always nice to discuss different build/experiences, heres goes my comments on your comments
I wanted to leave the quote wrap, but my browser was possessed... keep going up and down on it's own on th scroll... well. here goes:

As for LFTL: basically LFTl is one of the greatest draw engines available. yeah you could lose 3 vital options when you dredge, but you can also dredge way 3 lands when your board has enough (and then just picked them up later with LFTL). LFTL has won me many games by returning dead manlands, by recurring wastelanded lands (maze, etc.)
Yeap, vs aggro it ain't that good, because it's too slow but vs mid-range /control decks this one probably wins you the game. And i'm still in a meta where these kind of decks/matches are plentiful.


Indeed the lack of basic lands has annoyed me a bit, but i really don't see where to cut (cycle lands are staying) the ones i could see cutting down would be urborg (i like this one mainly because i play tabernacle, maze, etc) krosan verge. As for vesuva, i love this card, it's mana, it's a legendary wasteland, it's a double maze (saved me plenty of times), it's a double factory or monastery. But i was going to try and switch the urbog + krosan for +2 new enemy fetches.
Concerning mana accell, 3 is too few IMO and by having this, things like magus/BTB ain't that afwul. Actually these 5 mana artifacts are quite a recent addition, and i'm liking the results.
By the way, how many lands/mana artifasct you're using. As you can see i´m using 38 lands + 5 and in MWS i'm still a lot of time mana screw in there... =/

Pridemage is actually a very powerful card! one of the best early drops, also it helps vs such problems like btb, moon, orb. you should definitely try it out.
As for sower, it's just too killable IMO, if it had flash it could be a bomb with nice tricks, this way, i probably see it dropping on turn 4 and eot dying, without any significant effect on the game/board.
Like you can see on my "history" with this deck, i played wall of blossoms for  plenty of time, and i like it, but one thing that i noticed, in this format, you're better off with "aggro" creatures early on. Let me explain, this is the reason i play FoD. It's such an early pressure, in the initial hands few counters can touch it, if it gets bounced back, it's cheap enough to cast it again. killable? yeah a lot, but it probably dealt some damage along the way. So cutting wall for trygon, not only does it lose the flying but i lose the aggro part of it. that's why i cut blossoms, and don't play those new control walls that wotc printed. But yes, wall of blossoms, even in late game, because of its cantrip ain't as bad.
Rhox is one cards that i would like to play, but instead of FoD?! NO, rhox is way harder to cast (the same reason i put aside stoic angel), doesn't have an immediate impact on the game. I think i have plenty of lifegainers on my deck, and actually aggro, at least here, isn't being played so much.
Desolation giant was left out because of the double R, like starstorm and other interesting spells, my deck can't really support double R that much, and 6 mana for a wog, seems a bit too much, the only reason i'd play it would be for it's searchability with eladarmi call, other than that FTK is just faster IMO.
Really don't understand, because you seem to have lots of trouble VS RDW and RG and you´re saying to UP my mana curve... 6 turn wog  is a bit too late vs those decks, IMO.

Baneslayer angel i really wanted to add it, but it's quite â,¬â,¬ expensive and i really don't know what to cut. Doran is easier to cast. turn 3 to turn 5 makes a huge difference, especially being black it isn't affected by shriekmaw and others. As for exalted, exalted once again is faster. But it's one of those that is definetely on my watch list.

Well, i playe jace, mainly because it's a 3rd drop draw/shield, unlike liliana, i think i'd play ajani vengaent, or elspeth before this one. I even thought of making a 5CC with "all" PW, ebcause they are that great. But most of them are just a bit over ideal mana curve, especially in turns where you need  to play more than 1 thing. But yes, if you can pull her off quite often, seh's very powerful indeed.

Academy was cut because, it really hand't that huge impact on the game, vs control there isn't much things i'd like to fetch, vs aggro, yes, but it's usually a bit slow, at least this was my experience with it, it got STPed, tormod crytped, etc too many times, and i would end up with, IMO, a dead card.
Solemn if i went with more basic lands, it would be a definitely YES.

Crop, i can see being cut. But this one is very different from fetches. it fetches you maze, tabernacle, etc. Also cropping a targeted wasteland is very amusing :P
Well, sudden shock is there because of tricks, it can kill a pridemage, waterfron bouncer, it passes through counterspells and it even kills a magus of the moon even if i haven't a single original R source in play. And PtE is bad, IMO. i'd never hit a turn 1 bop, or noble with a PtE, but i'd indeed kill them wih a sudden shock
Treachery is just too expensive, i tried, had a lot of fun with it, but it was a bit suboptimal, IMO.

Superman? you mean morphling? well, morphling, IMO, isn't a very competitive creature in this format, even in mono U builds. As for tinkered colossus? well, let's just say if i was in a tournament and a person played tinker, i'd win without any difficulty  ::) (see here http://www.magicplayer.org/forum/index.php?topic=2.0) So diabolic edict isn't as good as a targeted removal here, IMO. Great card, but i think there are better ones, IMO to play in a 5CC.

well, i already talked about the mana artifacts, and i´m quite happy, although signets aren't the much efficient (but still trying to figure out which colors are better).


Demonfire is both removal and winning condition. My use for this is way different than a starstorm or earthquake. i use this as removal (literally, since it RFG, which is quite important) or as a winning condition, dealing those final points of damage sometimes is hard and this helps a lot. it also kills magus of the moon without any R (original) source in play. That's why i still play with some burn (demonfire, fire/ice, sudden,), for that and to deal those final damage points.

Krosan grip is so powerful, no matter what your opponent has ,it gets through: stifle, counterspell, misdirection, etc, etc. It kills sensei divining top, the extra mana totally makes for it. you should give it a try.

Too much grave hate? well, perhaps you play a in a different meta, indeed. As i see it, i really don't play with any grave hate :P i play a cheap cantrip artifact, i play a limited tutor for CMC 2 and i play instant mass removal or pumper for finks/glen/other creature. i don't have any dedicated spell for removal, so these don't worry me, although jund charm is a bit hard to cast sometimes. =/
Holistic wisdom was a great card which you could pull lots of tricks, but early on, it isn't good, too late in the game you might not have anything good to discard/return. it was one of those cards that was excellent in some cases but it was also very bad in other cases. and IMO, it's important to have a balanced deck.

Once again thanks for the input, feel free to post your decklist here so i can compare it better, and talk a bit about your meta. because i´m a bit confused, you talk about RDW and RG like they were some kinds of demons and then you make so many suggestion to UP my mana curve that i have a hard time figuring that out. In my meta, even vs control you're better off with a low mana curve, unless you play loads of mana accel (artifacts and non artifacts).

Cheers,
Mythrandir

Quote from: Loessli on 17-09-2009, 12:43:04 PM
Cut the Archmage - it sucks vs RDW (too expensive) and vs RG Beats (no creature spells) and these are definitely your toughest matchups imo.

Archmage is The Best Creature in the highlander format. He who gets one down first wins in control mirror, no expections. Even against dreaded RDW he blocks twice (not like Sower who just eats one otherwise dead removal spell).

Hey again, I'm sorry it took me so long to reply, I just had a lot to do lately lol.

First of all; i have taken some of your suggestions into consideration; i have added a slight bit of Mana acceleration and I have replaced the following few cards:

Holistic Wisdom: You are right about this one; in the early game, it really isn't much of a help and in later stages of the game, you usually just don't have enough stuff to discard.

Desolation Giant: I have had great times with this one, but your input about my mana curve (more on that one later, btw) made me think a bit so I replaced it with Stoic Angel, which I really can't see not being played in this deck, if I chose to play it's equivalent with red instead of green, Lightning Angel as well - I actually find Stoic Angel better suited to the control theme of the deck and very helpful vs RDW matchups (think about those Piledrivers, Siege - Gang Commanders and Chieftains on the other side of the battle field...).

Faith's Fetters: Usually liked to pull this one out with the Rector, when playing vs Aggro decks, as it is very, very annoying to them. However, I find Hide/Seek a better, cheaper, as well as a more versatile option, especially in Control Mirrors, where Seek can really give you quite a nice LP boost.

Seal of Cleansing: Another pick for the Rector... oh well, Quasali Pridemage is just cooler (and a creature, which is always a great thing in Aggro matchups).

Venser, Shaper Savant: Just don't like him, say what you will; I just really prefer plaing the Baneslayer Angel instead ^^...

Sower of Temptation: I realized, that I hadn't actually added Treachery lol! So, there goes the Sower... Bohoo :(

Vision Fetchs have been replaced by enemy fetchs (yes, I am now playing roughly 35 proxies lol).


So, now that you have seen, what I got rid of, let's look at my deck list, before I say anything more...:


5CC:

Lands: 39
Reflecting Pool
Forest
Swamp
Island
Mountain
Plains
Bayou
Underground Sea
Volcanic Island
Plateau
Savannah
Tropical Island
Taiga
Tundra
Badlands
Scrubland
Overgrown Tomb
Watery Grave
Steamvents
Temple Garden
Hallowed Fountain
Godless Shrine
G/B Fetch (Name Still unknown to me, sorry lol)
Polluted Delta
Scalding Tharn
Arid Mesa
Windswept Heath
Mystic Rainforest
Wooded Foothills
Flooded Strand
Bloodstained Mire
Marsh Flats
Krosan Verge
Kor Haven
Maze of Ith
The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
Wasteland
Mishras Factory
Mutavault

Mana Acceleration: 2
Mox Diamond
Darksteel Ingot

Hand Control: 3
Thoughtseize
Duress
Mind Twist

Card Draw/Tutors/Card Quality: 8
D - Top
Demonic Tutor
Intuition
Gifts Ungiven
Impulse
Worldly Counsel
Fact or Fiction
Tithe

Removal: 15
Putrefy
Mortify
Diabolic Edict
Path to Exile
Swords to Plowshares
Wrath of God
Damnation
Day of Judgement
Pernicious Deed
Oblivion Ring
Lightning Helix
Vindicate
Fire/Ice
Starstorm
Pyroclasm

Nice Enchantments: 4
Moat
Collective Restraint
Necromancy
Treachery

Counterspells: 8
Mana Drain
Mana Leak
Counterspell
Dissipate
Absorb
Dromar's Charm
Force of Will
Force Spike
Evasive Action

Creatures: 16
Twisted Abomination
Quasali Pridemage
Solemn Simulacrum
Wall of Blossoms
Baneslayer Angel
Exalted Angel
Lightning Angel
Loxodon Hierarch
Kitchen Finks
Rhox Warmonk
Dimir Houseguard
Doran, The Siege Tower
Eternal Dragon
Vendillion Clique
Academy Rector
Eternal Witness
Shadowmage Infiltrator

Planeswalkers: 1
Liliana Vess

Recursion: 1
Regrowth

Hate: 2
Hide/Seek
Tormod's Cypt


Arguably replaceable cards: Twisted Abomination (do i really need another one of the kind?), Mind Twist (good sometimes, but other times a wasted card slot).


As you can see, my deck is quite concerned with the matchups against RDW.
Tell me what you think and let's discuss about what the best possible card choices are.


Thanks in advance, Loessli

Hey again.

Well, stoic angel was a bit underwhelminh.. when he usually hits the board its a bit too late, specially because it has no immediate impact and is highly susceptible to removal, so i cutted. But i'd prefer stoic over lightning angel.

I'd prefer venser over vendilion clique. venser + karakas is very powerful. Also it's niecer vs aggro, since you can bounce 1 creature and block another. But u play some disprution, so perhaps this goes better with that part.

Would'nt you prefer to play firespout over pyroclasm?

twisted abomination i don't like it. eternal is good because it can be recurred, and it's way better to spend necromancy on a dragon than that azombie.
I would switch tormod crypt to a phyrexian furnace... but this is very situational.

Everything else looks ok, i didn't look very good at manabase...
I think you have enough stuff vs RDW, perhaps faith fetter VS oblivion ring.

Quote from: Mythrandir on 20-09-2009, 08:52:16 PM
I'd prefer venser over vendilion clique. venser + karakas is very powerful.

Well actually Vendilion Clique is fighting with Archmage for the title of the best creature in this format. Venser should definately be played also. On the other hand I wouldn't play Karakas since non-basic lands tend to screw your mana base against hate and you have to compensate that with bad mana artifacts like Darksteel Ingot.

Quote from: so_not on 20-09-2009, 10:50:08 PM

Quote from: Mythrandir on 20-09-2009, 08:52:16 PM
I'd prefer venser over vendilion clique. venser + karakas is very powerful.

Well actually Vendilion Clique is fighting with Archmage for the title of the best creature in this format. Venser should definately be played also. On the other hand I wouldn't play Karakas since non-basic lands tend to screw your mana base against hate and you have to compensate that with bad mana artifacts like Darksteel Ingot.

well, for me this is highly discussable. Karakas + venser led, many times, my opponents concending. I think venser is more versatile, IMO. vendilion doesnt seem very powerful vs aggro, but i must confess, never tried it.

You should really, really try it, especially if you are playing vs lots of control decks.
Vs aggro, you get 2 things: A dead enemy creature and a potentially dangerous card less.
I don't find Venser very useful in most matches; 4 mana is just too much for his effect imo. I like to play one more counter spell instead (e.g. Absorb, which normally would be a bit expensive, but, if it replaces Venser, is actually one step towards a lower mana curve as well as one more sure counterspell and some lifegain, a very important thing when dealing with RDW).

Well, again, some minor changes, but that i consider important. I tried making spoilers tags, but it didn't work, sorry for the long post. Overall changes and comments at the bottom. Any critics and opinions are welcome as always.

Quote from: Mythrandir on 08-09-2009, 09:57:02 PM
First, sorry for the bump, but i had some big (not huge) changes in the deck and a fellow player wanted to see my list.


Lands (38):
Bayou
Reflecting Pool
2x Forest
Savannah
Tundra
Scrubland
Nantuko Monastery
Stirring wildwood
Tolaria west
Island
Tropical Island
Volrath's Stronghold
Wasteland
Plains
Taiga
Underground Sea
Volcanic Island
Hallowed Fountain
Temple Garden
Swamp
Maze of Ith
Krosan Verge
Verdant catacombs
Rishadan Port
Badlands
Plateau
Karakas
The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
Flooded Strand
Wooded Foothills
Bloodstained Mire
Polluted Delta
Windswept Heath
Mishra's Factory (1)
Lonely Sandbar
Vesuva
Secluded Steppe
Breeding Pool
Steam Vents
Flagstones of Trokair
Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
Misty rainforest

mana accel: (5)
darksteel ingot
coalition relic
3x signets[/color] (currently figuring out which)
3x Talismans (UB, WU, GW)

Spells: (37)
jund charm
Sensei's Divining Top
Regrowth
Dissipate
Mana leak
Swords to Plowshares
Fire/Ice
Dromar's Charm
Lightning Helix
Vindicate
Demonic Tutor
Impulse
Gifts Ungiven
Collective Restraint
Pernicious Deed
Tithe
Evasive Action
Fact or Fiction
Mystical Teachings
Worldly Counsel
Eladamri's Call
Damnation
Moat
Mana Drain
Krosan Grip
Pact of Negation
Phyrexian Furnace
Wrath of God
Counterspell
Sudden Shock
Intuition
Life from the Loam
Hide/Seek
Shred Memory
Brainstorm
Crop Rotation
Putrefy
Pithing needle
Necromancy
Mortify
Demonfire
Engineered Explosives

Creatures:/Planeswalkers (19):
Ajani vengeant
Trinket mage
Tarmogoyf
Loxodon Hierarch
Eternal Witness
Etched Oracle
Exalted Angel
Flametongue Kavu
Eternal Dragon
Venser, Shaper Savant
Trygon Predator
Garruk Wildspeaker
Doran, the Siege Tower
Shriekmaw
Figure of Destiny
Aven mindcensor
Jace Beleren
Jace mindsculptor
Glen Elendra Archmage
Quasali pridemage
kitchen finks

Cards that went away
Green: Added cards

Some comments:
Pithing needle IMO was necessary due to the amount of PW out there, so trinket mage was no-brainer, after that.
Collective restraint (and possibly even moat  :'( in the near future) was switch for ajani, mainly because PW are so powerful and collective was getting wasted every time (pridemage, unicorns, etc, etc)
Stirring is still in testing mode, but i prefer it better to nantuko mainly becauee it produces colors
Aven mindcensor is very powerful and cheap and efficient (like most creature nowadays). Highly recommend it for those still not using it.

cut:
-temple garden
-nantuko monastery
-krosan verge
-3x signet
-collective restraint
-jace beleren
-flagstone of trokair
-urborg
-mortify
-putrefy
-figure of destiny
-dissipate

added:
+ jace mind sculptor (better than old jace, seriously, way better)
+ ajani the vengeant
+ trinket mage
+ pithing needle
+3x talisman (WU, BU, GW)
+ aven mindcensor
+ stirring wildwood (still testing phase)
+ verdant catacombs
+ misty rainforest
+ swamp
+ forest
+ mana leak

something to look at: http://blog.magicplayer.org/2010/06/13/hl-gp-7-place-3-4-patrick-richter-5c-goodstuff/

Quote from: malz77 on 13-06-2010, 03:33:26 PM
something to look at: http://blog.magicplayer.org/2010/06/13/hl-gp-7-place-3-4-patrick-richter-5c-goodstuff/

ok, thks a lot.

i've been looking at the list and it seems the only similarity is the use of the 5c. He plays a lot more (more than 2x my current list creatures and his design is a lot more agressive (stoneforge/SoFI is something i don't feel quite right in a control deck, IMHO).

However one cannot deny that creatures right now are so powerful and efficient and that a low creature deck (even control) might be suboptimal. Despite that, i still would like for 5CC to be viable and a different deck from 5c good stuuf or 5c creatures.

This past league i wasn't able ot finish all my games, so my current list (post-RoE) is still open to some (minor) changes. Let's see how it fairs on my next games.

Thks for the info.

P.s. to self: Must start going more often to the blog. :)

I've considered playing Shred Memory in my own 5cc, though I favor Suffer the Past more due to the life gain. However, Suffer the Past lacks transmute. How often do transmute Shred Memory?

I think you often transmute Shred Memory, since you don't play often against any kind of Reanimation  or Recursion Deck.
So the best usage for Shred Memory is in a deck with Oath of Druids and Life from the Loam. So you simply wait till the right in play and mana situation or you see there is spontanius application for Shred Meomory itself.
The same is true for Muddle the Mixture and there you need 2 blue mana which you more often have than 2 black, and you need more often to counter a sorcery or instant than there is need to remove a genesis or a card targeted by eternal witness.

Quote from: GoblinPiledriver on 14-06-2010, 08:51:50 AM
I think you often transmute Shred Memory, since you don't play often against any kind of Reanimation  or Recursion Deck.
So the best usage for Shred Memory is in a deck with Oath of Druids and Life from the Loam. So you simply wait till the right in play and mana situation or you see there is spontanius application for Shred Meomory itself.
The same is true for Muddle the Mixture and there you need 2 blue mana which you more often have than 2 black, and you need more often to counter a sorcery or instant than there is need to remove a genesis or a card targeted by eternal witness.

While that is true, I play in a meta with alot of (and I do mean alot) recurrence. That also means that Shred Memory could be effective and perhaps even both of them could be played.

Quote from: Kristian on 14-06-2010, 08:21:14 AM
I've considered playing Shred Memory in my own 5cc, though I favor Suffer the Past more due to the life gain. However, Suffer the Past lacks transmute. How often do transmute Shred Memory?

Quite often: it's really versatile, although it's double black: it can fetch counterspells (counterspell, mana drain, mana leak..), creature removal (fire/ice, helix), disenchant effects: (hide/seek, pridemage). so i'ts quite good.

@goblinpiledriver. there are quite few decks that use reanimations and recurrence. And if i cut shred memory, it would be for another grave removal, since i only play shred and furnace.

So i think it's a matter of personal choice (and meta) shred vs suffer the past. I like it and for the meanwhile i'm sticking with a furnace + a instant grave removal (because of mystical teachings and of course strategy)

This HL started as 5C Planeswalker FUNHL, with almost every Planeswalker and Cards like Doubling Season. It was fun to play but very slow. I wanted to build a Deck for Tournament, so there was a realy, realy long process to this final list (states of this for example: cuttet almost all exensive spells, added Baneslayer, Goyf, Spiritmonger and added tons of counterspells. It worked but mostly it takes nearly an hour for ONE game)

// Lands
   1 [AN] City of Brass
   1 [A] Tundra
   1 [A] Tropical Island
   1 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
   1 [ZEN] Marsh Flats
   1 Volcanic Island
   1 [GP] Steam Vents
   1 [NE] Kor Haven
   1 [DK] Maze of Ith
   1 [TE] Reflecting Pool
   1 [R] Savannah
   1 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
   1 [R] Taiga
   1 [DIS] Breeding Pool
   1 [MR] Seat of the Synod
   1 [DIS] Hallowed Fountain
   1 [TE] Wasteland
   1 [LG] The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
   1 [WWK] Celestial Colonnade
   1 Badlands
   1 [RAV] Watery Grave
   1 [LG] Karakas
   1 [WWK] Raging Ravine
   1 Scrubland
   1 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
   1 [CHK] Forbidden Orchard
   1 [R] Underground Sea
   1 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
   1 [R] Bayou
   1 Plateau
   1 [ZEN] Arid Mesa
   1 [ON] Flooded Strand
   3 [ZEN] Island (2a)
   1 [ON] Polluted Delta

// Creatures
   1 [CFX] Progenitus
   1 [ZEN] Iona, Shield of Emeria
   1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
   1 [ROE] Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre

// Spells
   1 [BD] Lightning Bolt
   1 [CHK] Ghostly Prison
   1 [AL] Force of Will
   1 [LRW] Faerie Trickery
   1 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
   1 [FNM] Brainstorm
   1 [OV] Swords to Plowshares
   1 [PT] Personal Tutor
   1 [FNM] Impulse
   1 [M11] Negate
   1 [10E] Recollect
   1 [RAV] Muddle the Mixture
   1 [10E] Crucible of Worlds
   1 [NE] Daze
   1 [ARB] Maelstrom Pulse
   1 [FNM] Forbid
   1 [JGC] Pernicious Deed
   1 [TE] Propaganda
   1 [ARE] Mana Leak
   1 [SH] Mox Diamond
   1 [IN] Collective Restraint
   1 [MM] Thwart
   1 [JGC] Stroke of Genius
   1 [ARE] Dismiss
   1 [PLC] Damnation
   1 [M11] Crystal Ball
   1 [ARE] Gaea's Blessing
   1 [UL] Crop Rotation
   1 [GP] Mortify
   1 [6E] Counterspell
   1 [IN] Fact or Fiction
   1 [LG] Mana Drain
   1 [JGC] Oath of Druids
   1 [UD] Replenish
   1 [JGC] Demonic Tutor
   1 [LG] Moat
   1 [FNM] Dissipate
   1 [MOR] Idyllic Tutor
   1 [JGC] Vindicate
   1 [RAV] Farseek
   1 [IN] Absorb
   1 [TE] Intuition
   1 [MR] Chalice of the Void
   1 Regrowth
   1 [IN] Dueling Grounds
   1 [ALA] Tezzeret the Seeker
   1 [CS] Counterbalance
   1 [ALA] Ajani Vengeant
   1 [10E] Wrath of God
   1 [CFX] Path to Exile
   1 [TSP] Ancestral Vision
   1 [MR] Sylvan Scrying
   1 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
   1 [IN] Sterling Grove
   1 [M11] Leyline of Sanctity
   1 [AP] Evasive Action
   1 [CHK] Gifts Ungiven
   1 [RAV] Lightning Helix
   1 [MR] Isochron Scepter
   1 [JU] Mirari's Wake

So I wanna ask, if sbdy has a better idea for some cards ;)

The newest version:
Cut Recollect for Argivian Find

I would suggest:

- Geas Blessing             +  Wargate
- Ulamog the Infinte Gyre   + Gifts Ungiven
- Counterbalance         + Firespout
- Tezzeret, the Seeker    + Vedalken Shackles
- Leyline of Sanctity    + Garruk Wildpeaker
- Isochron Scepter       + Miscalculation
- Iona, Shield of Emeria  + Empyrial Archangel
- Chalice of the Void     + Mirri's Guile

Explanation:
- Gea's Blessing: With 3-4 Creatures you don't risk much getting killed by your own Oath.
- Ulamog,t.I.G.: Indestructible is not the perfect shroud ability like Progenitus and Emp.Archangel and you only need 3creatures.
-Counterbalance: In Legacy is this card much better, you can't guaranted having Sensei's Diving Top next to this.
- Tezzeret: You don't have much Targets for him in Deck.
-Leyline: This sounds like a Sideboard Card, can't believe it's good if not onj starting Hand.
- Isochron Scepter: To less Targets in Deck.
- Iona, Shield of Emeria: Could be perfect, but against a multicolored deck you need to guess too much.
- Chalice of the Void: Another Legacy card. In Highlander there aren't decks that consist to 50% of 1.Drops, like in Legacy.


+ Wargate: Wargate is infinite flexible. X = 0: Maze,Karakas,Tabernacle; X=1: Pithing Needle; X=2: Oath of Druids.
+ Pithing Needle:  Cheap and flexible.
+ Firespout: Clears the board very cheap and effective
+ Vedalken Shackles: Good for Defense and for taking the complete controll of the Game
+ Garruk Wildspeaker: Makes 3/3 defensive creatures and provides 2 Mana.
+ Miscalculation: Cheap counter, with cycling even in Midgame not useless.
+ Empyrial Archangel: Absorbs many damages and has shroud.
+ Mirri's Guile: Like Sensei's Divining Top only cheaper

Quote from: GoblinPiledriver on 17-11-2010, 07:10:16 PM

+ Wargate: Wargate is infinite flexible. X = 0: Maze,Karakas,Tabernacle; X=1: Pithing Needle; X=2: Oath of Druids.
+ Pithing Needle:  Cheap and flexible.
+ Firespout: Clears the board very cheap and effective
+ Vedalken Shackles: Good for Defense and for taking the complete controll of the Game
+ Garruk Wildspeaker: Makes 3/3 defensive creatures and provides 2 Mana.
+ Miscalculation: Cheap counter, with cycling even in Midgame not useless.
+ Empyrial Archangel: Absorbs many damages and has shroud.
+ Mirri's Guile: Like Sensei's Divining Top only cheaper

I wouldn't play wargate, nor shackles in this deck. Everything else is a thumps up

I think you need to rebalance your manabase. You don't need city of brass, nor seat of synod. Try adding more basics and switch farseek stuff for mana artifact to avoid btb/moons effects.

Unless you're playing in a very aggroish meta, i would cut some moat/propaganda/prison/etc effetcs. Specially because you have idylic tutor. Other (besides Goblinpiledriver's) cards to cut:
- thwart
- faerie trickery
- forbid
- dismiss
- crystal ball
- absorb


cards to consider:
Engineered explosives
Pact of negation
with these two: tolaria west
dromar charm
hide/seek
grave hate: furnace/claws/shred memory/coffin purge/etc

Hope i helped, because i just gave it a quick glance at the list...

First of all, big thanks for the tipps.

@Piledriver:

Gifts already in there ;)

I wanted creatures, that end matches in 2 turns (ulamog, emrakul, progenitus). My first tests were with Emp. Archangel, but in my testgames, Iona worked much better. Most Decks i played again, played only 1 Colour to destroy/remove creatures and against a monocoloured Deck she is nearly a autowin.

But u`re right with Blessing, Tezzeret, Balance, Scepter (good, but often dead card...) i'm gonna cut them.

My decisions for Leyline and Chalice is following (not yet tested so far...):

Leyline: In opening hand it is much better sure. But I had the problem, that some decks easily burn me away... I have to test that card, but I think you're right here too^^

Chalice: Sure, in HL it isn't nearly as effective like in Legacy, but, the problem of this HL is speed... And a Chalice with 1 counter takes the speed (and burn) from many aggro HL.


@Mythrandir:

Seat of Synod was in there for Tezzeret to search it ;) But i'm going to cut Tezzeret so i don't need Synod.
I play in an aggro meta, that's why all these stuff is in there ;)

Farseek/Crop Rotation/Sylvan Scrying -> These cards are in there for fixing mana and searching stuff like Tabernacle... Farseek cut be cuttet against Darksteel Ingot..

I don't like Pact.. In oppening hand it is long time a dead card. Even if u wanna/must counter a spell, u can't because of the upkeep costs... (opponents 4th turn, he plays Blood Moon, u have Pact and 3 Lands...) So i prefer Thwart. But the other cards i'm going to implement.

Btw: Price of Progress is besides btb/moon a card, that killed me often..
I'm going to add more basic lands :)

Quote from: b. on 18-11-2010, 07:49:35 AM

Btw: Price of Progress is besides btb/moon a card, that killed me often..
I'm going to add more basic lands :)

then cut the sorcery fixers and add talismans/signets.. they also fix your mana. ;)

First, hello everyone i'm new in this forum :)


I'd like to post my Highlander, because it needs some workover, and i think this is the best place to ask for some advice



My Deck looks like this:


1x Bloodstained Mire
1x Mysty Rainforest
1x Marsh Flats
1x Polluted Delta
1x Flooded Strand
1x Arid Mesa
1x Verdant Catacombs
1x Wooded Foothills
1x Scalding Tarn
1x Windsweapt Heath

1x Plateau
1x Badlands
1x Taiga
1x Tundra
1x Underground Sea
1x Tropical Island
1x Bayou
1x Scrubland
1x Brushland
1x Savannah
(Volcanic fehlt mir..)

1x Steam Vents
1x Watery Grave

1x Wooded Bastion

1x Stirring Wildwood
1x Celestial Colonnade
1x Raging Ravine
1x Nantuko Monastery
1x Mishra's Factory
1x Treetop Village

1x Wasteland
1x Diamond Valley
1x Tectonic Edge
1x Maze of Ith
1x City of Brass
1x Gemstone Mine
1x Exotic Orchard
1x Ancient Tomb
1x Volrats Stronghold

1x Snow covered Mountain
1x Snow covered Forest
1x Snow covered Island




CC 1

1x Bird of Paradise
1x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Tithe
1x Berserk
1x Noble Hierarch
1x Innocent Blood
1x Path to exile
1x Swords to plowshares
1x Llawnowarelfen

9

CC2

1x Diabolic Edict
1x Sakura Tribe Elder
1x Lightning Helix
1x Khalni Heart Expedition
1x Mana Drain
1x Lotus Cobra
1x Wall of Blossoms
1x Qasali Pridemage
1x Demonic Tutor
1x Farseek

11

CC3

1x Kodama's Reach
1x Eternal Witness
1x Bone Shredder
1x Mortify
1x Putrefy
1x Oblivion Ring
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Rhox War Monk
1x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Vindicate
1x Crucible of Worlds
1x Knight of the reliquary
1x Jace Beleren
1x Forcefield
1x Wall of denial

15

CC4

1x Solemn Simulacrum
1x Flametongue Kavu
1x Sarkhan Vol
1x Elspeth, Knight Errant
1x Jace the Mind Sculptor
1x Ajani Vengeant
1x Bloodbraid Elf
1x Loxodon Hierarch
1x Wrath of God
1x Day of Judgement
1x Tawnos coffin
1x Kor Cartographer
1x Parallax Tide
1x Garruk
1x Avalanche Rider


15

CC5

1x Mulldrifter
1x Reveillark
1x Child of Alara
1x Liliana Vess
1x Genesis
1x Acidic Slime
1x Venser the sojourner
1x Chandra Nalaar
1x Baneslayer Angel

9

CC6

1x Sun Titan
1x Akromas Vengeance
1x Wurmcoil Engine


Its a mixture of fun cards, which are all very strong even alone. Some Cards are in because of the sinergy with Sun Titan (For example Bone shredder).

I'm considering to cut all basic lands. But i can't avoid Fetchspells. I'm no considering Three Visits and Spoils of Victory from Portal three Kingdoms, because they let you search duals, and bring them directly (and untapped) into play.

I had Natural Order and Progenitus in my deck, but everytime i lose against my own progenitus because of Bribery, which is played by almost every blue player in our community. 




I hope you can provide me with some nice advice :)


greetings from switzerland

Greetings,
there is Highlander tournament in my town being held this Sunday and I've decided to play 5C.
However, I'm not sure about all cards so I came here for advice.

Here is decklist:
Lands 38:
10x Fetch
10x Dual Lands
5x Basic lands
1x Murmuring Bosk
1x Vesuva??
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Reflecting Pool
1x Stirring Wildwood
1x Treetop Village
1x Celestial Colonnade
1x Creeping Tar Pit
1x Volrath's Stronghold
1x Wasteland
1x Karakas
1x Maze of Ith
1x High Market
1CC (3) :
Path to Exile
Swords to Plowshares
Sensei's Divining Top
2CC(14):
Chainer's Edict
Wall of Roots
Wall of Omens
Demonic Tutor
Sakura-Tribe Elder
Momentary Blink
Nature's Lore
Lightning Helix??
Eladamri's Call
Farseek
Animate Dead
Wall of Blossoms
Go for the Throat/Diabolic Edict ??
Regrowth
3CC(16):
Wood Elves
Oblivion Ring
Rhox War Monk??
Compulsive Research
Doran, Siege Tower??
Putrefy
Firespout
Eternal Witness
Vindicate
Knight of the Reliquary
Trygon Predator??
Pernicious Deed??
Coalition Relic??
Maelstrom Pulse
Kitchen Finks
Aven Mindcensor
4CC(12):
Gifts Ungiven
Etched Oracle??
Mystical Teachings
Venser, Shaper Servant
Ajani Vengeant
Fact or Fiction
Wrath of God
Solemn Simulacrum
Damnation/Day of Judgement??
Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Obstinate Baloth/Loxodon Hierarch??
Parallax Wave
5CC(13):
Shriekmaw
Liliana Vess
All Suns' Dawn??
Acidic Slime
Reveillark
Karmic Guide
Gideon Jura
Body Double??
Venser, the Sojourner
Baneslayer Angel
Mulldrifter
Time Warp
Primal Command
6CC(3):
Grave Titan
Primeval Titan
Austere Command
7CC(1):
Eternal Dragon??

Our Highlander field is rather aggro oriented, last top8s consisted of R goblins, RB goblins, Zoo variants, WW, Bant, some kind of mono U control and some random combo decks. I want to be able to withstand pressure in first few turns and control the game if I would play against aggro and on the other hand be able to play against control decks.
I'm mainly curious about cards with "??" and also there are few options I'm also considering (Crop Rotation/Sylvan Scrying, Mortify/Krosan Grip so I would be able to tutor something against Ench with Teachings, Sliver/Qasali Pridemage against Arti/Ench to be able to fetch with Eladamri's Call or maybe something even bigger, Worldy Tutor, Foresee, Angel of Despair, Mystic Snake, something else to get creatures out of graveyard, Ghostway, Avalanche Riders, something that can deal damage to creatures and players with comes into play effect, Impulse...)
Your advise is welcomed, so please rate my deck, criticize, make card suggestions...
Thank you in advance.

I would for sure play these:
Go for the Throat/Diabolic Edict ?? (Go for the Throat)
Trygon Predator??
Pernicious Deed??
Coalition Relic??
Damnation/Day of Judgement?? (Damnation)
Obstinate Baloth/Loxodon Hierarch?? (Both)

I would for sure not play these:
All Suns' Dawn??
Eternal Dragon??

If you really need me to go detailed, I can.

Your 1GW Knight of the Reliquary won't be of much use unless you want to put Plains and Forests into your 5 color deck (Along with Savannah and Temple Garden).  I'd suggest replacing it with the 1GW Dauntless Escort  [http://magiccards.info/arb/en/67.html], which can be sacked when you play: Wrath of God, Day of Judgment, Akroma's Vengeance, or when your Child of Alara dies to save all of your creatures.

You mentioned Progenitus, and the problem of opponents stealing him.  I personally like the 5-color creature Cromat  http://magiccards.info/ap/en/94.html with its abilities:

[{W}{B}: Destroy target creature blocking or blocked by Cromat.

{U}{R}: Cromat gains flying until end of turn.

{B}{G}: Regenerate Cromat.

{R}{W}: Cromat gets +1/+1 until end of turn.

{G}{U}: Put Cromat on top of its owner's library.]

The abilities are all very useful, and your opponents can't use them unless they have the correct colors of mana.  Its nice each turn to leave enough mana untapped that you can use two or more of the abilities if you need them, especially regenerate and return Cromat to the top of your library.

With 5 colors I also like the Fifth Dawn Bringer of the Black Dawn http://magiccards.info/5dn/en/43.html (demonic tutor on your upkeep for 2 life) and the Bringer of the Blue Dawn  http://magiccards.info/5dn/en/26.html (drawing 3 cards per turn isn't bad).

I'm not sure you have enough cards to protect all of your Planeswalkers from aggro damage, so I'd suggest that you substitute one of these CMC 5's for one of your CMC 4 or CMC 5 Planeswalkers.  You won't be losing very much by substituting one of these creatures for a Planeswalker - take the Blue Bringer, who lets you draw 2 cards on your upkeep.  Very nice ability.



I also like to have a reusable creature kill source such as Roy or Darkblast.  I might substitute in a Ethersworn Adjudicator  http://magiccards.info/cfx/en/26.html for the Acidic Slime.  The Slime is a 2/2 Deathtouch which destroys a artifact, enchantment, or land when it enters play.  While the Adjudicator is more mana-intensive with its activation cost, it can destroy a creature or an enchantment  (2+ if you have sufficient mana) a turn (though it can't destroy an artifact or a land).  It doesn't have the Slime's deathtouch, but the Adjudicator is a 4/4 Flier, a much more offensive creature.



These are just a few random thoughts, should you have the available cards.

it looks decent, but there are many things you can do to make it better:

Lands: you are to vulnerable to nonbasic hate.

You don't need diamond valley, city of brass, exotic orchard, gemstone mine

reflecting pool is better, consider karakas, rishadan port, dust bowl (since you run crucible)

1 cmc
i don't think you play that many creatures for berserk, IMO. Add brainstorm instead.

2 cmc
two words: STONEFORGE MYSTIC.
would definitely cut sakura since you only play with 3 basics.
no goyf?

3 cmc

+ intuition
+kithcne finks
-wall of denial

4 cmc
+ gifts ungiven (seriously, best card for 4 CMC)
- solemn simulacrum (not enough basics)


hope it helps, there are tons of 5c and 4c goodstuff decks out there, make a search here in our forum...

A couple edits in addition to Mythrandir's:

Khalni Heart Expedition => Mana stone. Either a Talisman from Mirrodin or a suitable Signet from Ravnica. With only three basics, Khalni just isn't reliable.

Forcefield => Bitterblossom (just better)

Tawnos' Coffin just seems bad and clunky, and could be replaced with something more solid. Shriekmaw or something if you want to kill creatures.