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In this deck, you really want to play cheap instant carddrawers rather than expensive sorceries. Try Opt, Impulse, Telling Time. Standstill also works very well with aggro, because you will most likely be the one playing the first creature, meaning that your opponent has no choice but to break the Standstill.

Sorry for the dumb question, but how exactly does this deck work; I mean, if you hear about WW or RDW, it's really easy to imagine, but this is slightly harder, due to the higher mana curve. Basically, you want to play a lot of Mana creatures - but what for, I still don't get, because WW doesn't have this kind of Mana Acceleration either. Why not just play the deck with a very, very low curve but no Mana Accel? What point am I missing here?

After testing this archetype I can give you a pretty clear scoop on the issue: It doesn't work. RDW beats MBC very easily, MUC does too due to the enhanced ability of card draw and pretty much every other decktype does as well. B/W control doesn't work as well (again, no draw). Stick with Suicide and add Stuff like Winter Orb and Tangle Wire.

You should really, really try it, especially if you are playing vs lots of control decks.
Vs aggro, you get 2 things: A dead enemy creature and a potentially dangerous card less.
I don't find Venser very useful in most matches; 4 mana is just too much for his effect imo. I like to play one more counter spell instead (e.g. Absorb, which normally would be a bit expensive, but, if it replaces Venser, is actually one step towards a lower mana curve as well as one more sure counterspell and some lifegain, a very important thing when dealing with RDW).

Hey again, I'm sorry it took me so long to reply, I just had a lot to do lately lol.

First of all; i have taken some of your suggestions into consideration; i have added a slight bit of Mana acceleration and I have replaced the following few cards:

Holistic Wisdom: You are right about this one; in the early game, it really isn't much of a help and in later stages of the game, you usually just don't have enough stuff to discard.

Desolation Giant: I have had great times with this one, but your input about my mana curve (more on that one later, btw) made me think a bit so I replaced it with Stoic Angel, which I really can't see not being played in this deck, if I chose to play it's equivalent with red instead of green, Lightning Angel as well - I actually find Stoic Angel better suited to the control theme of the deck and very helpful vs RDW matchups (think about those Piledrivers, Siege - Gang Commanders and Chieftains on the other side of the battle field...).

Faith's Fetters: Usually liked to pull this one out with the Rector, when playing vs Aggro decks, as it is very, very annoying to them. However, I find Hide/Seek a better, cheaper, as well as a more versatile option, especially in Control Mirrors, where Seek can really give you quite a nice LP boost.

Seal of Cleansing: Another pick for the Rector... oh well, Quasali Pridemage is just cooler (and a creature, which is always a great thing in Aggro matchups).

Venser, Shaper Savant: Just don't like him, say what you will; I just really prefer plaing the Baneslayer Angel instead ^^...

Sower of Temptation: I realized, that I hadn't actually added Treachery lol! So, there goes the Sower... Bohoo

Vision Fetchs have been replaced by enemy fetchs (yes, I am now playing roughly 35 proxies lol).


So, now that you have seen, what I got rid of, let's look at my deck list, before I say anything more...:


5CC:

Lands: 39
Reflecting Pool
Forest
Swamp
Island
Mountain
Plains
Bayou
Underground Sea
Volcanic Island
Plateau
Savannah
Tropical Island
Taiga
Tundra
Badlands
Scrubland
Overgrown Tomb
Watery Grave
Steamvents
Temple Garden
Hallowed Fountain
Godless Shrine
G/B Fetch (Name Still unknown to me, sorry lol)
Polluted Delta
Scalding Tharn
Arid Mesa
Windswept Heath
Mystic Rainforest
Wooded Foothills
Flooded Strand
Bloodstained Mire
Marsh Flats
Krosan Verge
Kor Haven
Maze of Ith
The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
Wasteland
Mishras Factory
Mutavault

Mana Acceleration: 2
Mox Diamond
Darksteel Ingot

Hand Control: 3
Thoughtseize
Duress
Mind Twist

Card Draw/Tutors/Card Quality: 8
D - Top
Demonic Tutor
Intuition
Gifts Ungiven
Impulse
Worldly Counsel
Fact or Fiction
Tithe

Removal: 15
Putrefy
Mortify
Diabolic Edict
Path to Exile
Swords to Plowshares
Wrath of God
Damnation
Day of Judgement
Pernicious Deed
Oblivion Ring
Lightning Helix
Vindicate
Fire/Ice
Starstorm
Pyroclasm

Nice Enchantments: 4
Moat
Collective Restraint
Necromancy
Treachery

Counterspells: 8
Mana Drain
Mana Leak
Counterspell
Dissipate
Absorb
Dromar's Charm
Force of Will
Force Spike
Evasive Action

Creatures: 16
Twisted Abomination
Quasali Pridemage
Solemn Simulacrum
Wall of Blossoms
Baneslayer Angel
Exalted Angel
Lightning Angel
Loxodon Hierarch
Kitchen Finks
Rhox Warmonk
Dimir Houseguard
Doran, The Siege Tower
Eternal Dragon
Vendillion Clique
Academy Rector
Eternal Witness
Shadowmage Infiltrator

Planeswalkers: 1
Liliana Vess

Recursion: 1
Regrowth

Hate: 2
Hide/Seek
Tormod's Cypt


Arguably replaceable cards: Twisted Abomination (do i really need another one of the kind?), Mind Twist (good sometimes, but other times a wasted card slot).


As you can see, my deck is quite concerned with the matchups against RDW.
Tell me what you think and let's discuss about what the best possible card choices are.


Thanks in advance, Loessli

Ok, I am working on a 5CC as well; in fact, my decklist is quite similar to yours.
Here are the things, that "bother" me most about your version.


I really don't see how LftL helps in this deck - sure, it's a great card, but cycle lands generally make this deck too slow for the RDW matchup. I have tried to play with it, but every time I start dredging, i find myself flushing vital options down the toilet... But that's just me and i could be wrong^^

Secondly, you are playing too many non basic lands and too few basics. You should definitely be playing each basic land card once in this deck; here is why: Since Magus of the Moon came out, you have 3 really, really bad kills to your deck being Back to Basics, Magus of the Moon and Bloodmoon; what I like to do for this reason, is to fetch a couple of basics really early, to avoid this sort of screw.
Cut things like Urborg and Vesuva and add the Basics.
I would also suggest playing the 5 new fetchs; they can make this deck faster in a way you can't even imagine if you haven't tried them out - they are a really good mana fix, they get you those basic lands AND they improve your card quality (less lands = better draw). If you don't know how to add those new fetchs, go for the Cycle lands first (this is, if you will follow my oppinion on the LftL).

Thirdly, you are not stretching the "more creatures with positive effects instead of spells" - part. Now, let me go into this one in a slight more detailed manner: I see you are playing the Archmage, Pridemage and the Predator. Also, there is Figure of Destiny, Venser. I like the Pridemage idea - i haven't actually played it yet, but i will most certainly try it out now. Where i would differ from your choices are here:
Cut the Archmage - it sucks vs RDW (too expensive) and vs RG Beats (no creature spells) and these are definitely your toughest matchups imo. Instead, add Sower of Temptation; it works great vs Aggro and Burn, because they will have to waste a spell to get rid of him. If you can manage to keep him in for one turn, you can usually really deal some nice damage with him as well. Great play in this deck.
Cut the Predator and add Wall of Blossoms - I know, two different purposes, but the wall is really the better choice, especially vs ugly first turn drops such as lackeys and kird apes or even Wild Nacs...
Lose the Figure and add Rhox Warmonk. Don't even ask me, why. I can't believe, the Monk hasn't come up yet; he is one of the best 3 - drops in the game and he gives you what you need the most: Life and a good blocker as well as a resistance of 4, which is immune to most burn spells.
Next: Lose Jace and add Liliana. She is really a bad bitch - if you can put her on the table, in almost 85 to even 90% you are sure to win the game. Force him to play instants or just get rid of expensive spells he couldn't use the other turn and then get whatever you need with her second ability.
I also would suggest you cut the Flametounge Kavu and add Desolation Giant; yeah, i get the extra cost is a bit harsh, but he can really come in handy sometimes.
Lose the Doran and add another 5cc god creature - the Baneslayer Angel. Works. Every time i play it. Etched Oracle is nice, keep it.
Then... where the hell is the Academy Rector?? Moat, Restraint, Treachery, Deed - need i say more??
Solemn is also a must, especially if you take my advice on the basic land issue.
I'll probably remember another load of creatures i forgot to put here, right when i post this, but so far so good i suppose...

Proceeding... Let's take a look at the main build; spells etc.
Cut Crop Rotation (no need at all - you have 10 fetchs and loads of other land searching options) and add Diabolic Edict - helps vs anything from Superman to the Ascetic to that lame ass Oath Akroma/Spirit of the Night or even vs a tinkered Colossus.
Treachery - a MUST in this deck. Get it with the Rector or just have fun taking over that Boggart Ram Gang or whatever annoys you the most for FREEEEEEE
Why play Sudden Shock over Path to Exile? The alternative is cheaper and works every time.
Reduce your Mana Acceleration to 3 rather than 5: I would say Ingot, Relic and Mindstone are the best picks here.
Then: Demonfire... Not a good pick. The reason the older builds by Jan Ludwig used Star storm rather than Earthquake is so simple: In Control Mirros, the Manlands always win the game. Every goddamn time. Especially lame to play vs Mono Blue Control, that uses Urza's Factory... Ouch; if you don't have moat or restraint, you are royally f*cked.
With Star storm, just kill his little manlands or, if he doesn't have any, draw a card instead.
If you add the Rector, go for the Seal instead of the Krosan Grip.
I'm glad to see, that you agree with my secret choice to not play the Decree of Justice in this deck - it's sooo expensive and you hardly ever get more than two angels if even. Again, rather add a nice Lifelinker instead.
Too much Graveyard Hate. Yes, by too much, i mean 2 cards. Reduce to one and add Holistic Wisdom instead. Great card in this deck.

Hmm, ok, so far, that's all i can really think of... if I have some other ideas, I'll let you know.


Take care, Loessli

Hey, i would like to enter competitive HL playing so I was wondering about what deck to chose.
As I tend to find Controldecks more interesting than Aggrodecks, i was thinking about a G/B rock deck.
I've been trying out some matchups vs white weenies and and R/G beats with very good results but i haven't tried to play vs 5c control or even Staxx dekcs (because none of my buddies have any of those decks ), so could you maybe help me on this matchup and tell me, if i should stick with a more traditional control build or go for a rather recursion based version of the deck?
thx, Loessli

I added baneslayer angel, divinity of pride and tidehollow sculler as well as tithe and ravens crime.
Any other suggestions?

C'mon, reply guys, i really need a second opinion on this...

Lands: 38
19 Swamps
5 Plains
Flooded Plain
Rocky Tar Pit
Bad River
Caves of Koilos
Scrubland
Godless Shrine
Polluted Delta
Flooded Strand
Bloodstained Mire
Windswept Heath
Fetid Heath
Mishras Factory
Mutavault
Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth


Manaboost: 3
Mox Diamond
Chromemox
Wayfarer's Bauble

Removal Spells: 22
Black: 12
Diabolic Edict
Chainers Edict
Imperial Edict
Ghastly Demise
Terror
Barter in Blood
Damnation
Mutilate
Infest
Devour in Shadow
Innocent Blood
Slaughter Pact

White: 6
Swords to Plowshares
Path to Exile
Wrath of God
Akroma's Vengeance
Seal of Cleansing
Disenchant

Artifact: 2
Powderkeg
Nevinyrral's Disk

Multicolored: 2
Mortify
Vindicate


Discard: 18
Black: 16
Hymn to Tourach
Duress
Addle
Mind Twist
Mind Rot
Deception
Mind Sludge
Thought Seize
Stupor
Bog Down
Wrench Mind
Distress
Coercion
Unburden
Persecute
Blackmail

Multicolor: 2
Gerrard's Verdict
Castigate


Creatures:15
Nezumi Shortfang
Okiba-Gang Shinobi
Exalted Angel
Silent Specter
Bane of the Living
Kokusho, the Eveningstar
Dark Confident
Dimir House Guard
Withered Wretch
Nightmare
Hypnotic Specter
Twisted Abomination
Nyxathid
Tombstalker
Yukora the Prisoner

Tutors/Draw:4
Night's Whisper
Phyrexian Arena
Demonic Tutor
Cruel Tutor