Hey gaise,
bc of the release of the new Liliana (and the liquidation of my 5cStaxx) I was tempted to build an Oath deck but not just pure Oath so here is just a quick "help me I am so lazy right now" attempt.
If you would build a RGBU-Oath-deck with some staxx elements and heavy planeswalker support (smokestack, deathcloud, wildfire, tanglewire and stuff)which creatures would you add nowadays (they must be castable in the deck)
-Grave Titan
-Inferno Titan
-Primeval Titan (not sure)
-Demonic Tutor Demon
-Emrakul (just because)
-Frost Titan (This poor guy need a home maybe a Wildfire deck?)
-Trench Gorger (for the lulz?)
-Fact or Fiction Sphinx
go on make some suggestions even pet cards
Don't know why white is excluded? White would have very sweet oath targets... But why oathing something else than Emrakul?
hmmmm Terastodon, Blightsteel Colossus, Jin-Gitaxias Core Augur
For the fun: Rasputin Dreamweaver
Demonic tutor demon
Sundering titan
sharuum (if the deck supports it)
witness
Quote from: Tabris on 23-09-2011, 01:35:39 PM
Hey gaise,
bc of the release of the new Liliana (and the liquidation of my 5cStaxx) I was tempted to build an Oath deck but not just pure Oath so here is just a quick "help me I am so lazy right now" attempt.
If you would build a RGBU-Oath-deck with some staxx elements and heavy planeswalker support (smokestack, deathcloud, wildfire, tanglewire and stuff)which creatures would you add nowadays (they must be castable in the deck)
-Grave Titan
-Inferno Titan
-Primeval Titan (not sure)
-Demonic Tutor Demon
-Emrakul (just because)
-Frost Titan (This poor guy need a home maybe a Wildfire deck?)
-Trench Gorger (for the lulz?)
-Fact or Fiction Sphinx
go on make some suggestions even pet cards
Competive: Primeval titan, demonic tutor demon, Baneslayer Angel, Wurmcoil engine
Semi-Competive: Inferno titan, pelakka wurm
Uncastable: BS Colossus, Emrakul, empyrial archangel
not competive/fun: fof sphinx, frost titan, trench gorger, hellkite overlord, akroma, spirit of the night, all other creatures/mythics > 7cc
Grave titan u never wanna oath into.
There are no really good choices atm, because all other creatures are overcosted and not cost efficient compared to "spells on legs". U kinda wanna have stuff like emrakul but u dont wanna draw it. It makes the deck kinda not stable enough, you have to be able to cast all your choices turn 4 or 5. Just my opinion...hf
Maybe I didnt make myself clear its not a pure oath deck it is a 4c heavy Control/Staxx/Planeswalker/Wildfire deck. The exclusion of white is on purpose since I dont want to play my 5c Staxx deck anymore which would be similar to this build if I implement white again. Again I want to cast things like deathcloud, Sorin and stuff. Its a Grixis Wildfire deck with Green if you want.
It should be competitive thats why I dont think I will add stuff which dosent require an immediate answer from the opponent. The Archangel though is very good so maybe I could make an exception for this (with some of my mana artifacts I could even hard cast him) Maybe I will post the list and you get a better impression.
Sharuum would be indeed very sweet with a lot of stuff oathed in the graveyard...maybe
I was allways wondering how good a witness is in an Oath deck. She simply draws the best card from your graveyard which is huge but the question is...is this enough vs a strong board.
Why not only emrakul? Well I tried a pure Oath deck and it wasnt very good nor was it fun to play. This time I want to add Wildfire and heavy black spells and splash green for some cards (Sylvan Library etc.)
thx anyway so far
Quote from: TabrisMaybe I didnt make myself clear its not a pure oath deck it is a 4c heavy Control/Staxx/Planeswalker/Wildfire deck.
Here's my approach, maybe you'll get some ideas out of it: http://iki.fi/~pyyhttu/magic/highlander/planeswalker-staxx.txt
Quote from: pyyhttu on 23-09-2011, 10:17:06 PM
Quote from: TabrisMaybe I didnt make myself clear its not a pure oath deck it is a 4c heavy Control/Staxx/Planeswalker/Wildfire deck.
Here's my approach, maybe you'll get some ideas out of it: http://iki.fi/~pyyhttu/magic/highlander/planeswalker-staxx.txt
I actually play the exact deck you describe there. Here is my list:
Quote from: LasH on 12-08-2011, 06:17:00 PM
First my new decklist, its not 5c anymore.
Artifacts:
1 Mox Opal
1 Mox Diamond
1 Gilded Lotus
1 Thran Dynamo
1 Worn Powerstone
1 Manalith
1 Coalition Relic
1 Spectral Searchlight
1 Everflowing Chalice
1 Dimir Signet
1 Prismatic Lens
1 Grim Monolith
1 Fellwar Stone
1 Talisman of Dominance
1 Rakdos Signet
1 Darksteel Ingot
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Expedition Map
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Winter Orb
1 Batterskull
1 Crumbling Sanctuary
Sorcery:
1 Transmute Artifact
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Compulsive Research
1 Diabolic Tutor
1 Mind Spring
1 Fabricate
1 Rhystic Tutor
1 Firespout
1 Wildfire
1 Burning of Xinye
1 Devastation
1 Death Cloud
1 Upheaval
1 Black Sun's Zenith
1 Destructive Force
1 Damnation
1 Bribery
1 Duress
1 Thoughtseize
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
Lands:
1 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Taiga
1 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
1 Polluted Delta
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Wasteland
1 Flooded Strand
1 Misty Rainforest
5 Island
2 Mountain
3 Swamp
1 Tolaria West
1 Ancient Tomb
1 City of Traitors
1 Academy Ruins
1 Mishra's Workshop
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Glimmervoid
1 Seat of the Synod
1 Great Furnace
1 Vault of Whispers
1 Darksteele Citadel
1 The tabernacle at Pendrelle Vale
1 Maze of Ith
Instant:
1 Mana Drain
1 Pact of Negation
1 Muddle the Mixture
1 Daze
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Into the Roil
Planeswalker:
1 Karn, Planeswalker
1 Liliana Vess
1 Sorin Markov
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker
1 Tezzeret the Seeker
1 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
(1 Garruk Wildspeaker)
Enchantments:
1 Oath of Druids
Creatures:
1 Pelakka Wurm
1 Inferno Titan
1 Rune-Scarred Demon
1 Primeval Titan
1 Wurmcoil Engine
Its better than the 5c staxx variant because its much more stable. Its even a pretty good deck in my opinion, but since goodstuff is so much better in every aspect and has not a single bad matchup, i doubt it makes sense to pilot a deck like this at a competive tournament.
Btw why is the new Liliana bringing you to this deck? I kinda dont get that (Control deck's dont wanna drop a own handcard - deathcloud is a different story). Futhermore cards like smokestack are actually much to slow and much to less effective to be played (Sadface :( )
I dont know if u wanna just build a fun deck or something more competive?
For good measure, my current stax build:
Lands:
Underground Sea
Watery Grave
Polluted Delta
Verdant Catacombs
Misty Rainforest
Bloodstained Mire
Marsh Flats
Flooded Strand
Scalding Tarn
Creeping Tar Pit
Mishra's Workshop
City of Traitors
Ancient Tomb
Academy Ruins
Wooded Foothills
Arid Mesa
Badlands
Volcanic Island
Steam Vents
Blood Crypt
Mishra's Factory
Darksteel Citadel
Wasteland
Island
Swamp
Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
Mountain
The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
Buried Ruin
Dust Bowl
Rishadan Port
Vault of Whispers
Seat of the Synod
Artifact Mana:
Chrome Mox
Dimir Signet
Talisman of Dominance
Mox Diamond
Mox Opal
Grim Monolith
Rakdos Signet
Izzet Signet
Fellwar Stone
Worn Powerstone
Coalition Relic
Thran Dynamo
Gilded Lotus
Talisman of Indulgence
Darksteel Ingot
Mind Stone
Planeswalkers:
Liliana Vess
Sorin Markov
Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
Tezzeret the Seeker
Jace Beleren
Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Karn Liberated
Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker
Chandra, the Firebrand
Disruption:
Smokestack
Sphere of Resistance
Tangle Wire
Winter Orb
Mana Drain
Duress
Thoughtseize
Inquisition of Kozilek
Library Manipulation:
Gifts Ungiven
Fact or Fiction
Demonic Tutor
Brainstorm
Ponder
Preordain
Fabricate
Transmute Artifact
Thirst for Knowledge
Compulsive Research
Intuition
Memory Jar
Tainted Pact
Impulse
Sensei's Divining Top
Rhystic Tutor
Concentrate
Various Artifact Goodies:
Crumbling Sanctuary
Thopter Foundry
Sword of the Meek
Crucible of Worlds
Ensnaring Bridge
Expedition Map
Sweepers:
Upheaval
Starstorm
Damnation
Wildfire
Burning of Xinye
Devastation
Destructive Force
Firespout
Slagstorm
Black Sun's Zenith
Death Cloud
No creatures + Oath, I want to blank their removal, also I didn't want to add green. If you do sylv. library and oath, witness, garruk are logical.
1 Mana discard + more than usual library manipulation. I wanted to have a greater chance to do something relevant in the first turn than betting on a sol land. Also adds consistency.
No enchantments. Imho, The Abyss and nether void doesn't cut it anymore, they work only if you already hit the board with a sweeper and do nothing vs fast aggro. If you play white, humility is great since it stops all the etb-creatures.
Of course it has the usual stax problem vs RDW, you have to mulligan aggressively to find an explosive hand.
PS: I formatted it somehwat. Also I have no idea if the emphasis on lib mainuplation is justified, I only wanted to combat the gripe I had with stax decks: if you topdeck your artifact mana / wrong antiaggro tools when you don't really need them.
Here is my list. Unfinished.
Lots of maybe especially the creatures to include:
metamorph ?
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/4c-oathstaxx/
Lash: How good is Crumbling Sanctuary? I haven't played it in my Staxx deck for over 15 months.
How good is Death Cloud? I've heard it should be amazing, but I couldn't get it to work twice during a two months playtesting.
How good is Mind Spring? Do you think you should also play Braingeyser?
Which is best: Inquisition or Duress? I think In. of Kozilek.
Coldcrow: How good is Crumbling Sanctuary. I haven't played it in my Staxx deck for over 15 months.
How good is Death Cloud? I've heard it should be amazing, but I couldn't get it to work twice during a two months playtesting.
Tell me about Slagstorm and Starstorm please. If you were to cut one of those, which would it be?
How good is Ensnaring Bridge in your deck? Which is better: Crumbling or Ensnaring?
Thx guys
Patrick Kassow
I am not asked but I will answer anyway :D
Sanctuary is still awesome. So often I wish Tezz could fetch it right away. The opponent have to find an answer. It protects even PW from burn. Additionaly I highly recommend adding propaganda. Most decks cant afford the extra mana nowadays. Might give you the edge to get to turn 5-7.
Deathcloud...is the single reason I cutted white (sure you can make it work in 5c Oath/Staxx) to have more black cards in my decks (Sorin is the 2nd main reason) and support tripple black. I absolutely love that card and its most of the time the 2nd target for a tutor after Upheaval.
Mindspring I think you have to add big fat spells again in the control decks. Future Sight might be a better card. Depends on the board.
Slagstorm is a neccesary piece i think. Firespout is allways welcome to hit a random jace is also nice. (I see a lot of ppl playing rolling earthquake...which is similiar to slagstorm but maybe can be difficult if you are behind and just want to clear the board)
Crumbling sanctuary is necessary against rdw. It usually gives time. All you need to finish aggressive decks.
I cut deathcloud bc i didnt like the discard on me. I went into topdeck mode too, something i try to avoid.
Mind Spring is not a good card. But there is nothing better out there. Its much better than future sight in my opinion. 5 mana is alrdy 3 cards for mind spring, which you can play for sure! To abuse future sight you need a lot of cheap spells/lands/top and turns to get the maximum out of it. I dont think stax is the best deck for future sight. (I played it on my gp version but i never draw it. I would not play it without academy rector anyway)
Kozilek is better than duress atm, because of the aggro meta.
eh that list is outdated, right now I'd play alot more creatures like inferno titan, wurmcoil etc.
If you want a creatureless build, humility, the abyss and such are essential.
Thx U guys all 3 of U for the very fast answers!!
That's appreciated!
Tabris: "Sanctuary is still awesome. So often I wish Tezz could fetch it right away. The opponent have to find an answer. It protects even PW from burn. Additionaly I highly recommend adding propaganda. Most decks cant afford the extra mana nowadays. Might give you the edge to get to turn 5-7."
Oh okay I think I'll try it again. I remember I cut it back 15 months ago due to the inefficiency against my control meta, so I think you're SO right: It should have another go in my deck. I'm not sure I'll play Propaganda though. I might try Collective Restraint but I really dislike the fact that it don't protect my PW's. I think Moat, Humility and The Abyss are enough. Won't you agree? Do you think I should play Propaganda over Collective Restraint? Do you think I need 2x Propaganda (Ghostly Prison)? I did play Firespout but I'm trying Barter in Blood instead. Which would you play first if you had a choice to include only one of these: Firespout, Slagstorm or Rolling Earthquake? I have all 3 available in my collection. The only one I've never tried is Slagstorm, but it actually looks really interesting.
Lash do you think Concentrade would work instead of Mind Spring? I mean we both know the upsides and downsides of those cards so the way I see it: You would never want to cast Mind Spring for 4 (x=2) and you rarely cast it for 7 (x=5), so is Concentrade not just the right middle ground? I used Deep Analysis a few months ago and it was actually pretty good. After Oathing you rarely needed it for the win but I always felt like it was a decent card at all times and never a dead draw, which I fear Mind Spring could be. It's been two years since I've had Mind Spring in my Staxx deck, so I feel pretty rusty about my info on this card, so don't take my words for any good :) "Kozilek is better than duress atm, because of the aggro meta." I totally agree :)
Once again, thx for answering this quick.
Quote from: Kassow-Rossing on 23-01-2012, 03:18:38 AMOh okay I think I'll try it again. I remember I cut it back 15 months ago due to the inefficiency against my control meta, so I think you're SO right: It should have another go in my deck. I'm not sure I'll play Propaganda though. I might try Collective Restraint but I really dislike the fact that it don't protect my PW's. I think Moat, Humility and The Abyss are enough. Won't you agree? Do you think I should play Propaganda over Collective Restraint? Do you think I need 2x Propaganda (Ghostly Prison)? I did play Firespout but I'm trying Barter in Blood instead. Which would you play first if you had a choice to include only one of these: Firespout, Slagstorm or Rolling Earthquake? I have all 3 available in my collection. The only one I've never tried is Slagstorm, but it actually looks really interesting.
Lash do you think Concentrade would work instead of Mind Spring? I mean we both know the upsides and downsides of those cards so the way I see it: You would never want to cast Mind Spring for 4 (x=2) and you rarely cast it for 7 (x=5), so is Concentrade not just the right middle ground? I used Deep Analysis a few months ago and it was actually pretty good. After Oathing you rarely needed it for the win but I always felt like it was a decent card at all times and never a dead draw, which I fear Mind Spring could be. It's been two years since I've had Mind Spring in my Staxx deck, so I feel pretty rusty about my info on this card, so don't take my words for any good :) "Kozilek is better than duress atm, because of the aggro meta." I totally agree :)
It's about the casting cost and not the effect by itself why you should/may play Propaganda and Firespout. CC3 is so important because you want to survive the early turns to reach midgame and with CC4 spells like barter moat abyss and friends you won't have enough cheap game stretchers imo. Another issue why I always recommend enough <cc4 removal is Geddock Teek. He's just nuts against Staxx.
You should try Tiding and/or Breakthrough as carddraw. Concentrate never made the cut for me tbh but I think Breakthrough can be quite good because of it theoretical low cost.
Quote from: MarcMagic on 23-01-2012, 03:39:56 PM
It's about the casting cost and not the effect by itself why you should/may play Propaganda and Firespout. CC3 is so important because you want to survive the early turns to reach midgame and with CC4 spells like barter moat abyss and friends you won't have enough cheap game stretchers imo. Another issue why I always recommend enough <cc4 removal is Geddock Teek. He's just nuts against Staxx.
That is of course a very valid point. I thank you for the answer :) My version plays Swords to Plowshares, Lightning Bolt, Mana Drain, Liliana of the Veil, Vindicate and Maelstrom Pulse of the removal with mana cost < 3 besides Thoughtseize, Inquisition and few other stuff that also may prevent me from being attacked early on. Do you think I should try one or both (Ghostly)?
Well I don't think Propaganda and friends are needed atm because 1.) they don't protect your PW and 2.) except very fast Aggrodecks most decks can easily handle them either by removal or by just paying colorless mana. TBH i don't think Oath is the best Strategy at all and playing good creatures is the real deal. The best way to counter Creature based decks are.. creatures : ). At leats nowadays.
I know what the best is :) If I wanted to play the best I would not play Staxx :)
I wish to play Staxx and I wish to play Staxx with Oath of Druids with either a package of 5-8 creatures in Titan-size or 3 creatures in Ulamog-size.
From there my deck is build :)
Hi everybody.
I'm sorry for necroing this thread, but OP's question got relevant again (for me at least :P).
What's the current consenus on Oath creatures these days? Since Loam got unbanned, I'm shifting back from Staxx oriented builds to more reactive control oriented ones (something like Tabris' (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m-CLHw5dZ0A&feature=plcp)).
The problem I currently have is to find the balance between the following three criteria. The oath creature should be
a) hardcastable (I found CC 6/7 to be the very end)
b) threatening (the impact the creature has must be big enough to pressure the opponent so he has to react immediately)
c) handable in case the enemy uses it against me (Bribery, Phantasmal Image, Metamoprh, random reanimation etc.)
When I run a package of 4-7 moderate creatures (e. g. Titans, Baneslayer, Wurmcoil Engine, Pelakka Wurm etc.) I don't feel like I am rewarded for setting up Oath and could rather play a generic Ux control list (Then oath is just a nice anti aggro gimmick to 'cheat' the creatures into play).
When I run 2-3 big & mean fatties (Sundering Titan, Empyrial Archangel or really uncastable ones like Ezrakul or Augur) I don't have anything I could hardcast to throw on the board in case of emergency and I feel betrayed when the enemy just copies it for a mere 1U with Image.
I hope you get my question and can help me out. Thanks in advance.
Well it seems the criteria for "my opponent dont get so much value by copying my creature" you exclude a lot of creatures. In my last Oath build I used
the demonic tutor demon, Primeval titan, pelakka wurm and the Fact or Fiction Sphinx. I think it depends on your meta. As you can see all three creatures are against certain deck types. The titan is a universal one (searching maze, tabernacle, man lands, volraths).
Okay, maybe I didn't express myself well.
What I tried to say was that I'd rather have my opponent copy / steal / control a Titan, Wurm or Engine than let's say an Emrakul or Empyrial Archangel just because I can handle these much much easier. There is not much that feels worse than losing to your own creatures.
But at the same time, I want the few creatures that I play to end the game reliably and from my experience these 'moderate' ones fail at it too often for my taste.
I guess it's just a natural dilemma choice Oath players have to solve with their own preferences. I hope it is understandable now.
Looking at your requirements, you can cover 2 of 3 at any time, but you can't have it all.
If you don't know what to deploy, stick with only Emrakul and Progenitus, then tweak your list to support this selection. That is,
a) find the necessary cheats to get the critters into play (tutors into Show and Tell & Oath)
b) protect the combo from anything else (counters)
Okay, thanks for your input you two.
After several games against a wide variety of decks I found the approach to run moderate creatures to minize the value for my opponent not to be worth it.
As an oath player I already take certain risks like a pretty light threat density, so if I finally manage to get my creatures onto the table (be it hardcast or via Oath) they should be big and either hard to handle (shroud / hexproof) or have an immediate impact on the game (strong etb effects).
Now I am searching for alternative options vs. certain deck types.
What do you think about good old Sundering Titan against control and 5c decks? It's not uncommon to hit 3+ enemy lands while only losing 0-1 myself. He synergizes witz LftL + Wasteland and optional hate like B2B.
If you run white, Empyrial Archangel and Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite should be devastating against aggro, correct?
And will Elderscale Wurm (M13) replace Pelakka Wurm?