The Buried Alive challenge

[Tiggupiru]

Since I don't have the time test drive this beast in the upcoming weeks, I ask for the whole community to take a stab at it, and report results. Alternatively, try a different approach on the combo. The goal is to create a deck that is broken enough to justify banning of buried alive.

Here is the deck list that malz77 gave me. It's NOT a list that eventually influenced the ban, nor was the list was entirely finished, so this is probably not the 100% optimal build, but a list that seems solid enough to provide enough info of the combo.




// Lands
   1 [IA] Snow-Covered Plains
   1 [EX] City of Traitors
   1 [MI] Crystal Vein
   1 [IN] Geothermal Crevice
   1 [IN] Island
   1 [IN] Swamp
   1 [IN] Plains
   1 [IA] Snow-Covered Island
   1 [TE] Ancient Tomb
   1 [IA] Snow-Covered Swamp
   1 [SHM] Sunken Ruins
   1 [FUT] River of Tears
   1 [IA] Underground River
   1 [TSP] Gemstone Caverns
   1 [FE] Ebon Stronghold
   1 [PLC] Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
   1 [ON] Polluted Delta
   1 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
   1 [ON] Flooded Strand
   1 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
   1 [ON] Windswept Heath
   1 [ZEN] Arid Mesa
   1 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
   1 [ZEN] Marsh Flats
   1 [IN] Ancient Spring
   1 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
   1 [R] Underground Sea
   1 [R] Tundra
   1 [R] Scrubland
   1 [DIS] Hallowed Fountain
   1 [GP] Godless Shrine
   1 [RAV] Watery Grave

// Creatures
   1 [TSP] Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir
   1 [CHK] Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
   1 [UL] Karmic Guide
   1 [LRW] Pestermite
   1 [DIS] Sky Hussar
   1 [MOR] Reveillark
   1 [RAV] Drift of Phantasms

// Spells
   1 [MR] Thirst for Knowledge
   1 [MR] Chrome Mox
   1 [TO] Breakthrough
   1 [AL] Lat-Nam's Legacy
   1 [TO] Insidious Dreams
   1 [OD] Careful Study
   1 [OD] Buried Alive
   1 [CHK] Gifts Ungiven
   1 [A] Timetwister
   1 [IN] Fact or Fiction
   1 [MI] Shallow Grave
   1 [RAV] Compulsive Research
   1 [IA] Diabolic Vision
   1 [SOK] Footsteps of the Goryo
   1 [RAV] Perplex
   1 [RAV] Dimir Machinations
   1 [PS] Orim's Chant
   1 [M10] Silence
   1 [WL] Abeyance
   1 [TE] Intuition
   1 [AP] Life/Death
   1 [R] Animate Dead
   1 [IA] Dance of the Dead
   1 [VI] Necromancy
   1 [TE] Reanimate
   1 [MM] Dark Ritual
   1 [MM] Misdirection
   1 [PT] Cruel Tutor
   1 [R] Demonic Tutor
   1 [PT] Personal Tutor
   1 [FUT] Pact of Negation
   1 [RAV] Remand
   1 [ST] Grim Tutor
   1 [LG] Mana Drain
   1 [AL] Force of Will
   1 [M10] Duress
   1 [LRW] Thoughtseize
   1 [SH] Mox Diamond
   1 [OD] Tainted Pact
   1 [P2] Sleight of Hand
   1 [VI] Impulse
   1 [M10] Ponder
   1 [OD] Peek
   1 [IA] Brainstorm
   1 [IN] Opt
   1 [PY] Rhystic Tutor
   1 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
   1 [AL] Lim-Dul's Vault
   1 [TSP] Mystical Teachings
   1 [HL] Merchant Scroll
   1 [M10] Diabolic Tutor




The list was missing 10 cards, so I added these:

- Sorcerous Sight (Worse than Peek, but Peek seems really good in this deck)
- Makeshift Mannequin
- Bazaar of Baghdad (Could be really bad, but it's a way to get rid of unwanted cards.)
- Library of Alexandria
- Pithing Needle
- Trinket Mage
- Portent (Seems like a safe filler. Just as good as Ponder in the first couple of turns)
- Mulldrifter (Evoke cost makes this a great reanimator target)
- Shriekmaw (See above. This also gets those problematic creatures like Grim Lavamancer, Ronom Unicorn...)
- Peer Through Depths (should be self-explanatory, probably not that great though)


Cards I consider cutting:

- Mystical Teachings (seems so slow, great against control though)
- Pestermite/sky Hussar (It's nice to have a backup in the deck, in case you draw either one, but I rather draw some action)


I took this one for a spin, but not often enough for me to claim this is absolute truth or anything. Here is what I think:

At a first glance, it looks like your typical combo deck with a faster kill, only with an more easily disrupted combo. But don't let that fool you, it's not that fast.

Most of the time aggro decks just run over you and while you sometimes have the opportunity to go off before that, you don't have the luxury to protect your kill in any way, you just need to try it. And especially after the opponent knows the deal, they will leave instant burn spell just for this occasion.

Against midrange decks with no counters or effective disruption, this deck is good. Once they tap out to play whatever, just go for it. As long as they have only instant speed removal and no pressure, you can get around that in no time. White Weenie is another decent matchup as they rarely have an instant answer, and they are generally slow enough for you kill you, before you go off. They, however tend do play some annoying permanents that will cause problems and worst case scenarios (relic of progenitus, karakas) will usually delay the kill for several turns.

Against blue-based control, you should be able to accumulate enough disruption to force through a wall of counters, but any permanent that gives you trouble, is a serious problem. You can't go off against an active relic of progenitus, vedalken shackles or the like and finding answers to something like that AND trying to get that through a sea of counterspells, before control finds their finisher or locks the game down, is incredibly hard.

There were games where I wished this deck had huge monsters instead of a fragile combo kill. Buried Aliving something along the lines of Iona, Empyrial and Bogardan Hellkite would have been usually better than crossing your fingers. Especially against fast aggro decks, you are better off playing a regular reanimator deck.

Now, a hybrid BA-combo and reanimator deck could theoretically work, but there are not that many MUs where this combo is good enough to justify putting three to four, essentially dead draws in the deck. Also you would have to seriously cut down the protective department, so the combo isn't probably doing that much either.


My verdict (although only with limited testing and probably not an optimal deck list):

I would not take this deck, in it's current form, to a tournament in which I try to succeed. The deck seems like it's a weaker than Aluren or Dream Halls - combos. The latter is a great example, as it does not need to dodge nearly as much problematic cardboard and essentially costs about the same as BA + reanimation spell. It's a fun little deck that has some hands that can win out of nowhere if and when the opponent taps out. It's a great pick against field full of midrange and slow aggro, but so is every other combo deck as well. I would take Aluren (http://www.trader-online.de/turniere/Decks/2009-8-1.jpg) over this any day.

It's kinda fun to play and whenever your opponent has a card(s) you don't know of, you need to figure out wheater you can combo off and if you do, what can you play around. In the hands of a good player, this deck could provide constant positive record, but tournament winner this is not.


I challenged my goldfish in ten quick games, just to give you some data. Sample size is small, but so is my lunch break.

In all of these, I mulliganed away all my protective spells and just tried to combo off as fast as humanly possible without playing around of anything)

First I list the turn I was able to successfully reanimating (does not always mean the turn when won), then some notes about the game.

- 5 (no protection when buried aliving, on the next turn reanimaion spell with silence backup.)
- 4 (no protection when buried aliving, or on the next turn when reanimating.)
- 5 (duressing on the same turn when buried aliving, but no protection when reanimating. insidious dreamed two turns before, leaving no cards in hand. Good thing it was not countered)
- 3 (played both on the same turn with BA + reanimate. no protection before or when comboing. Still, a very nice draw. Demonic tutor and reanimate on the opening hand, drew chrome mox right away.)
- 4 (played both on the same turn, misdirection back up. Glad Wanda was unable to deal my first turn ancient spring.)
- 6 (played both on the same turn, remand back up. had to assume my opponent could not have paid for the rhystic tutor in turn 5.)
- 5 (played BA without protection. Next turn Pact of Negation back up. Since I drew Karmic Guide, I was forced to go off with reveillark, which puts the actual combo turn in turn 6. This also makes the pact of negation protection irrelevant since I only hand three lands.)
- 4 (played both on the same turn, no protection. Drew karmic guide, so actual kill was on turn 5.)
- 7 (played both on the same turn, peeked on the first turn, otherwise no protection.)
- 5 (no protection when buried aliving, and no protection turn after when reanimating.)

Average: 5.0, when calculating with the actual kill turn. 4.8, otherwise.

In all of these games, I would have been 2-3 turns slower if opponent would have wastelanded on turn 1 or 2. You can probably dodge this by optimizing your mana. You an get away playin more basics anyway, since you need to stop tainted pacting, if you hit Kiki-Jiki or something. Most of these games (8 out of 10), I tapped out (or had no protection) when playing a tutor before the combo turn, meaning I was very vulnerable to a discard spell.

EDIT -- You can find the deck in MWS format here: http://myy.haaga-helia.fi/~a0800628/

Click with right mouse button, choose "save as" and open in Magic Workstation.

[Sturmgott]

Thank you for the effort. Nonetheless I'm afraid I have to deeply disappoint you probably. Neither will we start conveying deck lists, nor "prove" that a decision we made was correct due to brokenness in a certain deck. This would simply be impossible in terms of available time.

We banned Buried Alive because we simply do not want a two-card-combo to exist in our format that wins the game on the spot without requiring any special kind of previous setup for just FOUR mana, especially if the mana needed is solely black so that a ritual COULD enable a turn 2 victory, no matter how improbable that may seem.

I guess we rather should reconsider Aluren in that context. Combos should require "more" setup or cost quite some more mana imo.

[Tiggupiru]

Fair enough. There are numerous improbable two card combos out there that can potentially win on turn two.

I mean, I've actually goldfished a turn two kill with channel and dragonstorm. This basically costs three mana. Channel can also power several other turn two kills with Fireball etc. Metalworker can also go off with numerous ways on turn two. Most common being staff of domination. Again this costs only three mana.

Tireless Tribe + About Face costs only two.

[Sturmgott]

Metalworker can also go off with numerous ways on turn two. Most common being staff of domination. Again this costs only three mana.

Tireless Tribe + About Face costs only two.

Both combos require setup since you have to play the creature and have it survive a turn. They don't come "out of nowhere", which is what makes all the difference here.

PLUS: The secondary combo part, the reanimation, is redundant.

[Tiggupiru]

How about channel + dstorm/fireball/kaervek's torch etc?

[Sturmgott]

So, how do you survive paying 20 life? Or is it a three-card combo you suggest? Maybe you're talking that "out of nowhere"-thing - it's not out of nowhere. It requires your available colorless mana plus your life total to be greater than the opponents life total by at least one. Plus, if it gets countered - you're dead next turn, if not instantly in response.

You don't really want to compare these combos, do you? It's just a little terrorist in your head that says "DISAGREE, BY ALL MEANS!!". Many of your comments look that way.

We owe the community a healthy, balanced and diverse format. We DO NOT owe anyone justification in the form Nastaboi requested it and you're obviously expecting it, too.

[Tiggupiru]

So, how do you survive paying 20 life? Or is it a three-card combo you suggest?

You pay 19 and use it as a four mana combo, or take advantage of opponent fetching on the first turn.

[pyyhttu]

I like this challenge. I mean, I'd love to take this deck out for a spin and really see how fast & dangerous or slow & vulnerable (or combination of those two) this deck really is.

Because the mana cost ratio and color (B & 2B) don't alone really tell how dangerous a combo is.

There aren't many people who are willing nor capable of doing this sort of documented testing Tiggupiru suggests, but if there were, our job would be a whole lotta easier.

P.S. I wouldn't have that forum tag of "German Open Champion 2010" without him; he designed my Hanau's Zoo deck to beat the estimated field.

[Nastaboi]

I'd just throw in couple of reanimate targets and upgrade my win percentage just randomly animating a fatty.

I'll try green-based "Survival" style build with dozens of small combos or synergies. It might as well be the best Buried Alive deck, but it can't be broken by any means. I'll try it anyway when I have time.