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Really great post! Thanks for all the work you've done.
Did you consider publishing it as an article?
I doubt it will see print. Mainly because the writing is self-repeating a little bit but also because Highlander isn't really that interesting on the big screen outside this forum. I have previously published an article for Starcitygames for an Extended deck I called Wake some years ago before the two previous rules changes for the format. This article is quite less interesting reading :) But thx for the comment!
Again,
I absolutly appreciate your work here. As I mentioned I was building my own staxx deck but with more creatures and some pet cards (clock of omens e.g.) etc.
I like the idea to cheat emrakul in the game but I am also eager to know how many times did you cross bribery, sower, o-ring, karakas, and stuff ?
In my local meta I am always confronted with two briberys at least. And as you wrote before, counter-heavy builds are very hard to handle (defense grid ? city of solitude ?)
Also how good is the new Elspeth ? (I guess she´s much like the old one. Good vs aggro, better vs control but bit more expensive)
What about Dispeller's Capsule ? ( I see you dont play trinket mage bc of oath, but in this deck he´s strong (voltaic key, top, nihil spellbomb, needle, capsule, explosives) and you can reccur it) beceaus most of the time, I realy need to ged rid of enchantments and artifacts (O-ring, B2B etc.) or Hide/Seek ?
Swords to plowshares, I think you underestimate the power of the card (mana costs). Sometimes you simply have get rid of things after you spend all your mana or simply couldnt stop your opponent from casting a steel hellkite, trygon predator etc.
there´s more stuff I want to talk about maybe we could speak in icq about some tweaks and can wrote it down here if ppl are interested.
Hi Kassow,
nice to see your new decklist. I've played oath staxx for a while now and i have to credit, that this is the most solid version i've seen so far. Good job!
About your "watch list". I think all cards there are playable for sure. Maybe its all a question about metagame.
The question for the watch list should be: Which cards in the maindeck can you remove? I think its really hard to cut cards in this deck, exspecially because alot of cards are simply set.
One Question stays for me: You play now alot of token generators, did u never got problems with your own tabernacle?
About the article.
magicplayer.org has a new site, a blog-site where some people write about decks like you did here.
I've never read such a good desciption about a highlander deck and i would love to see this published on the blog. I think the user "Tabris" might help here.
Again, very nice deck, love to play it.
Btw, i'm working on a creature based staxx like tabris, too. With trinket mage and other creatures (sharum, lodestone golem, triskelion etc). I personally think the same like him about Emrakul. It can destroy yourself so easy..Bribery is a problem... On the other hand, u always win if your opponent does NOT handle him in his next turn.. But from my sight: I rahter run totally save creatures, like empyrial archangel.
Lash,
you absolutly read my mind!
I just wanted to ask if Kassow would wrote this as an article for the blog. I would absolutly publish it there.
At this time I am not sure which version is better. I like my Lodestone Golem, my Desolation Angel, Sharuum, Trinket Mage etc. A Oath version would force a player to cut all these sweet creatures and just include Empyrial Archangel, Progenitus and Emrakul ( I think just one creature is to risky bc of hide seek and stuff, also if you have one of them on your hand and have no brainstorm, scroll rack, jace 2.0 you have also a chance to win).
so Kassow ? what about the article ?
Quote from: Tabris on 08-01-2011, 03:29:23 PM
Again,
I absolutly appreciate your work here. As I mentioned I was building my own staxx deck but with more creatures and some pet cards (clock of omens e.g.) etc.
I like the idea to cheat emrakul in the game but I am also eager to know how many times did you cross bribery, sower, o-ring, karakas, and stuff ?
In my local meta I am always confronted with two briberys at least. And as you wrote before, counter-heavy builds are very hard to handle (defense grid ? city of solitude ?)
Also how good is the new Elspeth ? (I guess she´s much like the old one. Good vs aggro, better vs control but bit more expensive)
What about Dispeller's Capsule ? ( I see you dont play trinket mage bc of oath, but in this deck he´s strong (voltaic key, top, nihil spellbomb, needle, capsule, explosives) and you can reccur it) beceaus most of the time, I realy need to ged rid of enchantments and artifacts (O-ring, B2B etc.) or Hide/Seek ?
Swords to plowshares, I think you underestimate the power of the card (mana costs). Sometimes you simply have get rid of things after you spend all your mana or simply couldnt stop your opponent from casting a steel hellkite, trygon predator etc.
there´s more stuff I want to talk about maybe we could speak in icq about some tweaks and can wrote it down here if ppl are interested.
First of all thx for responding! Now from the top:
I am also thinking about a version with several creatures, where Oath is either not included or not near any part of win-condition. The creatures I've come up with this far are:
1. Baneslayer Angel
2. Grave Titan
3. Hokori, Dust Drinker
4. Kaho, Minamo Historian
5. Karn, Silver Golem
6. Knight of the Reliquary
7. Lodestone Golem
8. Lotus Cobra
9. Primeval Titan
10. Sharrum the Hegemon
11. Sun Titan
12. Trinket Mage
13. World Queller
Right now I'll go for my Emrakul built but I will try out some more creatures in the future.
Well Karakas isn't much of a problem because the opponent will have to have it right when Emrakul enters battlefield through Oath or Polymorph for him to survive. That doesn't happen often even for a deck featuring it. If Emrakul gets cast, nothing will help. Sower, Venser, O-Ring and Journey to "some"where are all good answers but they are few and I like to play one giant big ass creature where there are this few cards that can answer it. Bribery is not really an amazing card so I don't expect people to play that a lot. If they do, they should be rewarded. I can built a deck without any Grave Titan, Primeval Titan, Emrakul and more but that won't do this deck any good. Do you agree?
I dislike Clock of Omens because it's often a dead card. It doesn't do the mana ramp very well and it only works great with Winter Orb and Static Orb. I remember cutting it from my 1.0 version to the 2.0 version for making room for the Thopter-Sword combo. I don't think I will test Clock of Omens again for a very long time unless there will be a new sort of Obelisk of Alara-ish card.
About Defense Grid and City of Solitute: First of all one should never play Defense Grid over City of Solitute even though the deck features Mishra's Workshop. The power lvl is just of different universes in my eyes. Let me know what you think. Taking that into consideration, I don't think the deck should play either because City is just such a poor card. I'm testing Boseiju instead, which both fits the theme of the deck and offers almost the same solution to the same problem.
The new Elspeth is very good and you are correct. She is just like the old one (1.5 tokens per turn instead of 1) but better if you don't take into consideration that she costs more. She will also provide with three tokens much faster than Knight-Errant, which is very neat since that helps Smokestack and Polymorph a lot more. Elspeth Tirel costs one more mana, which makes it a little worse, but it's really good in this deck and I don't ever think I will cut it for as logn as the theme remains or untill there are four different Elspeth's out there and three of them are better for the deck than Tirel ;)
I rarely need to destroy any Artifacts or Enchantments and not for four mana at least. I don't like Dispeller's Capsule because it's really expensive and Maelstrom Pulse does it better. If I played Trinket Mage, I would very much like to play the white Capsule. Maybe even the Executioner's but I doubt it.
I did play Voltaic Key in 2.0 but it's also often a dead card. It doesn't mana ramp that well (often gives one extra colourless mana) and now that I don't play Obelisk of Alara, it really doesn't seem to serve any purpose. Key has always been a fun and somewhat great card without ever being amazing. I won't play that one again unless some other great Artifacts will enter the deck again. See the "Obelisk of Alara-ish" comment further up.
I do play Nihil Spellbomb. It is absolutely amazing and much better than Tormod's Crypt and Phyrexian Furnace as long as you need your own graveyard (I'm thinking about you, Relic of Progenitus)
I don't like Pithing Needle. It won't offer the answers I need that often. Sometimes it will, obviously, but like Stifle, it's very narrow. I did play it in 1.0 but I really think it's no good. What do you use it for? Karakas and?
Hm Engineered Explosive would be perfect for the deck if it didn't take out so much in the deck itself. I have played it once and it does great on x=0 but x=2 is often the best one and that will hurt Staxx Oath itself SO much! U think I should put it on Testing List again?
I am testing Swords to Plowshares. It's really good but I would more like for a card like Wrath of God I think. I really don't think this deck have the luxery of playing cards that only offers 1:1 when playing cards like Armageddon n' stuff. I'm not facing either Trygon Predator or Steel Hellkite. I suggest any one who is, should add Swords to Plowshares to the deck and change it for Devastation.
Lastly I don't have ICQ. I have MSN or Facebook :) You can also write to my e-mail at
wakedeck@gmail.com
I would definitly not mind if you posted all of your ideas in this thread. It's entirely up to you. Thx for all
Quote from: LasH on 08-01-2011, 03:33:04 PM
Hi Kassow,
nice to see your new decklist. I've played oath staxx for a while now and i have to credit, that this is the most solid version i've seen so far. Good job!
About your "watch list". I think all cards there are playable for sure. Maybe its all a question about metagame.
The question for the watch list should be: Which cards in the maindeck can you remove? I think its really hard to cut cards in this deck, exspecially because alot of cards are simply set.
One Question stays for me: You play now alot of token generators, did u never got problems with your own tabernacle?
About the article.
magicplayer.org has a new site, a blog-site where some people write about decks like you did here.
I've never read such a good desciption about a highlander deck and i would love to see this published on the blog. I think the user "Tabris" might help here.
Again, very nice deck, love to play it.
Btw, i'm working on a creature based staxx like tabris, too. With trinket mage and other creatures (sharum, lodestone golem, triskelion etc). I personally think the same like him about Emrakul. It can destroy yourself so easy..Bribery is a problem... On the other hand, u always win if your opponent does NOT handle him in his next turn.. But from my sight: I rahter run totally save creatures, like empyrial archangel.
Hi :) And thx
Yeah much of the cards are set and can't be replaced. There are only around 10-15 cards that really can be touched.
Hehe I haven't had problem with The Tabernacle and tokens yet. I guess it's because I can choose to play Tabernacle if I wish or not. I can also destroy it with Armageddon's and the likes. Finally there aren't thousands of tokens in the deck so it's not devastating. I think I'll be fine. It's still an amazing card. The tokens in here are mostly for Polymorph and for blocking as well as for Smokestack. Tabernacle doesn't hurt any of these themes.
Yeah the creature-based version I think will be really great as well. For now I'm keeping the one Eldrazi and nothing else. You're totally right that Empyrial Archangel is such a great Oath of Druids card. At least if there're more than the angel in there. It's not really good with Polymorph so 3.0 will be with Emrakul and Polymorph.
Thx for playing last week by the way :) Hope to see you soon again.
-Patrick
Quote from: Tabris on 09-01-2011, 01:49:00 AM
Lash,
you absolutly read my mind!
I just wanted to ask if Kassow would wrote this as an article for the blog. I would absolutly publish it there.
At this time I am not sure which version is better. I like my Lodestone Golem, my Desolation Angel, Sharuum, Trinket Mage etc. A Oath version would force a player to cut all these sweet creatures and just include Empyrial Archangel, Progenitus and Emrakul ( I think just one creature is to risky bc of hide seek and stuff, also if you have one of them on your hand and have no brainstorm, scroll rack, jace 2.0 you have also a chance to win).
so Kassow ? what about the article ?
I haven't faced Hide // Seek yet so I don't really know about this. I can say, though, that Oath and Polymorph (Emrakul) is not near the only way of winning. Actually it's just a side-win-condition that features three cards and that's it.
Q1: Can you please link me to the blogs?
Q2: Can I publish an article that hasn't been done yet?
Q3: Will people really be interested in reading it?
Q4: Will you give me a few advices for what to change in the article before publishing (assuming you've read it all)?
Thx, Patrick
I´ve added you in MSN.
My MSN is patrick.kassow.rossing@hotmail.com
http://blog.magicplayer.org/2011/01/18/5c-staxx-oath/
there we go
I'd really like to know why you don't play Destructive Force? I think I'd like it better than Upheaval, as it destroys creatures and lands instead of just bouncing them back. Upheaval gives you a new start with more speed than your opponent. Its pretty good against control decks, but I didn't like it against fast aggro. Destructive Force however is one mana more expansive, but wrecks aggro entirely, as all their creatures die (except pro:red) and they don't have mana left to play the cards in their hands. Against control it's less devastating, but killing 5 lands still is pretty good.
5c stax is a pretty weak choice for the current meta imho. It has horrible matchups vs burn, U/R counterburn, U/x skies builds, MUC, and I doubt it can even race fast combo (except for nutty oath or acceleration hands). Also green-based aggro has alot of ETB:destroy artifact creatures which further cause headaches to such decks.
I really like prison decks but imho classic 5c variants with clunky cards like nether void are on a absolute low at the moment.
Testings show the exact opposite. It has problems vs pure permission decks which are very rare atm. All other decks u mentioned there were no match for the deck.
If permission decks grow, add decree of annihilation and boseiju and the mu is winable.
Quote from: Tabris on 19-01-2011, 01:31:37 PM
http://blog.magicplayer.org/2011/01/18/5c-staxx-oath/
there we go
I can see you've already posted part of the article on the blog already :) I wouldn't mind if you would prevent cutting too much of the text from my articble, because that really makes for a different story (if you know what I mean).
What is now done (for what I think) is:
1. Overview
2. Intro and theme
3. Deck List
4. Lands
5. Creature(s)
6. Planeswalkers and
7. Mana Arti. and Ench.
The rest will need some more work. I know what to write, but it's still a hard job to do :) You can now post whatever you feel like from the first seven, thx.
Quote from: Helle on 20-01-2011, 01:07:33 PM
I'd really like to know why you don't play Destructive Force? I think I'd like it better than Upheaval, as it destroys creatures and lands instead of just bouncing them back. Upheaval gives you a new start with more speed than your opponent. Its pretty good against control decks, but I didn't like it against fast aggro. Destructive Force however is one mana more expansive, but wrecks aggro entirely, as all their creatures die (except pro:red) and they don't have mana left to play the cards in their hands. Against control it's less devastating, but killing 5 lands still is pretty good.
Let me start asking you if you've ever played with Upheaval back in the days with Psychatog or here in the Highlander format..?
Upheaval and Destructive Force serves two different functions in the deck. Destructive Force is very much like Wildfire and Burning of Xinye, which both was in the deck from the very beginning. From the second to the third version of my version of Staxx Oath I felt like I needed a third one and thus Devastation was added. Quite more powerful since it takes out M11 Titans and Baneslayers (+ many more) but also costs the extra mana. Destructive Force is simply a stricly weaker version, which I do not need yet.
Now to the Upheaval vs. Des. Force:
Upheaval CAN be cast for one less mana, which doesn't happen often, but it's worth noting. Upheaval is often great against aggro because it will help you get back on the feet with better cards, while your opponent still has the same cards. That sounds weird, I know, but the huge difference betweeen aggro and the other archetypes in Highlander is that most cards looks the same. In Staxx we have a few key cards that are more important than the rest. By turn 9 one is more likely to have drawn some sort of combination of great cards, whereas aggro will still have about the same cards. Upheaval will much easier win the game against control by adding more mana to the pool than it costs. Five lands isn't much in the late game. Five damage is too little to take out all guys.
However.. Destructive Force IS on the testing list for the same reason you've presenting. It will work a little better against aggro than Upheaval even though it's much worse against control. My personal conclusion: I will keep Upheaval for now but will try out Destructive Force. Please give me feedback if you ever test Des.Force!
Quote from: coldcrow on 20-01-2011, 03:51:29 PM
5c stax is a pretty weak choice for the current meta imho. It has horrible matchups vs burn, U/R counterburn, U/x skies builds, MUC, and I doubt it can even race fast combo (except for nutty oath or acceleration hands). Also green-based aggro has alot of ETB:destroy artifact creatures which further cause headaches to such decks.
I really like prison decks but imho classic 5c variants with clunky cards like nether void are on a absolute low at the moment.
I partly agree with your theory that Staxx is bad against those decks. I completely disagree with your conclusion though :) "The current meta" is not the same in Denmark and on MWS as it is where you live. Your conclusion fails, sorry!
Mono Red burn has a 60/40 against this Staxx Oath. U/R counterburn can't beat this deck I think. Skies I'm not sure. Have only played one match against it since the change and I won 2-0. MUC I'm not sure about either. A lot of coutner spells is not a welcoming sight, so maybe you're right. I doubt combo can beat this deck either. I haven't lost to any (total) since the change either. Aggro is not longer a problem after the change. Control with counters are the worst match-up.
Nether Void is not a clunky card. It wins straight up most of the times.
hey Kassow-Rossing
I would very much like to see your version wiht creatures, i think the creatures you i found so far are very good.
what about creatures like academy rector, wurmcoil engine, Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas, Magus of the Tabernacle ?
1. Baneslayer Angel
2. Grave Titan
3. Hokori, Dust Drinker
4. Kaho, Minamo Historian
5. Karn, Silver Golem
6. Knight of the Reliquary
7. Lodestone Golem
8. Lotus Cobra
9. Primeval Titan
10. Sharrum the Hegemon
11. Sun Titan
12. Trinket Mage
13. World Queller
Hello to another Dane of the official site :)
My current deck I've played for the last few months contains
Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
Baneslayer Angel
Frost Titan
Grave Titan
Primeval Titan
Sharuum the Hegemon
Sun Titan
Wurmcoild Engine
of the cards you've mentioned. I also play the following creatures:
Braids, Cabal Minion
I'm also testing Hokori, Dust Drinker in and out sometimes. Keep in mind I'm playing Oath of Druids which leads me to the decision that I cannot play "weak" creatures such as Trinket Mage, Karn and so on.
I def. like the new version with creatures better than the previous one. I just haven't found time to write another extensive article about the deck. I will in the future but only if it possible while only changing a bit of the 3.0 text.
Thx a lot for the response. Let me know where you are resident in Denmark so you maybe can join our community. We're 15 people in Lyngby, 25 i Roskilde and 25 in Holbæk.
Patrick
I'm wondering why "Sphinx of the Steel Wind" is not listed so far because it would be one of the first creatures to include because several reasons. Castable through Workshop, tutorable, academy ruins/oath combination, lifelink with first strike etc. It just lacks Pro:White/Black and haste to be "perfect" :>.
Sphinx of the Steel Wind is a GREAT creature! It is near perfect but it costs too much for the deck. It's not pure Oath of Druids any longer. It's simply better to Oath into a M11 Titan and Baneslayer is easier to cast.
Thanks :)
Its very nice of you :)
I really like thoes Titan in the stax deck they do wonders. And Braids, Cabal Minion is very very nice when you have one of your totems ramp / Crucible of Worlds or Academy Ruins running.
But am not so convince about Sharuum the Hegemon, but thats maybe because i never been lucky enough to have Wurmcoil in my graveyard when i oath Sharuum.
Why are we having a english discussion here on the message board and a danish one over private messages? ;) Well to continue:
Sharuum is really awesome because it keeps stuff like Crucible of Worlds, Smokestack, Winter Orb, Thopter Foundry on the battlefield even after being removed. It's even better to Oath into it. It was the creature I was most sad to say goodbye to when I tried my Polymorph-only-one-creature-"Emrakul" version. I'm so glad to have it back.
Hokori, Dust Drinker is the extra Winter Orb (I now play Rising Waters instead) which is amazing. I'm thinking about playing all 3 of them as well as Static Orb.
Braids, Cabal Minion is the extra Smokestack. It can't go to "2", but it starts out as "1", so that's pretty damn awesome! It's only downside is like Hokori: It can be Oath'ed into which is bad. It's still good enough though. Against control it's actually not that bad to Oath into it even though it's still the worst creature there.
Can you post a updated list for the Titan Oath version?
Essah
2. The Deck list:
Catagorized by card type and alphabetically arranged
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lands ( 36 )
Academy Ruins
Ancient Den
Ancient Tomb
Arid Mesa
Badlands
Bayou
City of Brass
City of Traitors
Darksteel Citadel
Dust Bowl
Exotic Orchard
Flagstones of Trokair
Flooded Strand
Glimmervoid
Marsh Flats
Maze of Ith
Mishra's Factory
Mishra's Workshop
Misty Rainforest
Plateau
Polluted Delta
Rishadan Port
Savannah
Scalding Tarn
Scrubland
Seat of the Synod
Taiga
Tendo Ice Bridge
The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
Tropical Island
Tundra
Underground Sea
Volcanic Island
Volrath's Stronghold
Wasteland
Windswept Heath
Creatures ( 8 )
Baneslayer Angel
Braids, Cabal Minion
Frost Titan
Grave Titan
Primeval Titan
Sharuum the Hegemon
Sun Titan
Wurmcoil Engine
Planeswalkers ( 7 )
Ajani Vengeant
Elspeth, Knight-Errant
Elspeth Tirel
Garruk Wildspeaker
Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Tezzeret the Seeker
Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
Mana producing Artifacts and enchantments ( 13 )
Awakening Zone
Azorius Signet
Coalition Relic
Darksteel Ingot
Gilded Lotus
Grim Monolith
Khalni Gem
Mox Diamond
Orzhov Signet
Selesnya Signet
Simic Signet
Thran Dynamo
Worn Powerstone
Other Artifacts and Enchantments ( 17 )
Bitterblossom
Collective Restraint
Crucible of Worlds
Expedition Map
Moat
Nether Void
Null Brooch
Oath of Druids
Oblivion Ring
Rising Waters
Sensei's Divining Top
Smokestack
Static Orb
Sword of the Meek
Tangle Wire
Thopter Foundry
Winter Orb
Instants/Sorceries ( 19 )
Armageddon
Bribery
Burning of Xinye
Damnation
Demonic Tutor
Devastation
Fact or Fiction
Gifts Ungiven
Maelstrom Pulse
Mana Drain
Ravages of War
Tainted Pact
Thirst for Knowledge
Timetwister
Upheaval
Vindicate
Wargate
Wildfire
Wrath of God
-Total 100 cards
---------------------
Lands: Volrath's Stronghold is an easy choice after playing all these "new" creatures. Especially with Oath of Druids in the deck. Ancient Den and Seat of the Synod are in here for Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas but I think I will cut them again some time soon.
Creatures: The major change was the creatures. All of them are pretty amazing to Oath into except for Braids, Cabal Minion. Braids however serves as the second Smokestack and has been far better than hoped. The titans works really well with Smokestack too, which is half of the theme in the deck. Baneslayer serves no synergy-purpose but is too strong to keep out.
Planeswalkers: Liliana Vess was too slow against aggro and not powerful enough against control. It actually tutored many good answers while also setting up comboes but it was simply too expensive. Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas is a clear choice for this deck. Elspeth Tirel feels a bit chubby so maybe it should see the cut.
Mana Artifacts/Enchantments: I now only play 13 instead of 14 ramp spells because I felt I too often got near only lands and ramp but no threads. Wargate and Expedition Map can always find a land so not much has changed here. The changes in the colours of the Signets are due to the rest of the spells in the deck.
Other Artifacts/Enchantments: I'm testing Null Brooch. Maybe artifact ramp staxx is the only deck it really suits. Rising Waters is just another Winter Orb. I wish I had searched The Gatherer for duplicates way before. Expedition Map allows Tezzeret the Seeker to set up the Wasteland lock-down and more goodies.
Sorceries/Instants: I felt I needed both Wrath of God and Damnation because of my meta environment. Wargate is amazing since it ramps or finds Volrath Stronghold/Academy Ruins for 3 mana, finds Oath of Druids for 5, finds Crucible of Worlds for 6 and planeswalkers for 7.
Maybe going out:
Ancient Den
Elspeth Tirel
Khalni Gem
Null Brooch
Seat of the Synod
Maybe going in:
Banefire (Meta game decision)
Boseiju, Who Shelters All
Crop Rotation
Crumbling Sanctuary
Everflowing Chalice
Faith's Fetters
Hokori, Dust Drinker
Nihil Spellbomb
Phyrexian Processor
Primal Command (Very very interesting card after the creature-changes)
Sphere of Resistance
Swords to Plowshares
Transmute Artifact
Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth (Workshop, Maze, Tabernacle, Boseiju and the colourless lands)
You play Moat and 6/8 creatures you control dont fly. Can you comment your experiences with this theoretical issue? (I know u have elspeth.. but still. Seems abit random to me). If u like braids, check out the little worser Version: World Queller, which can also handle planeswalker or enchantments if needed.
Futhermore you dont play blinkmoth well or clock of omens..So you cant abuse Winter orb and static orb.. How does Static Orb work without abuse?
And last question: How do u use gifts ungiven without regrowth? I only see crucible + academy ruins + sword combo working, or expensive gifts with sharuum.
Quote from: LasH on 30-03-2011, 08:19:32 PM
You play Moat and 6/8 creatures you control dont fly. Can you comment your experiences with this theoretical issue? (I know u have elspeth.. but still. Seems abit random to me). If u like braids, check out the little worser Version: World Queller, which can also handle planeswalker or enchantments if needed.
Futhermore you dont play blinkmoth well or clock of omens..So you cant abuse Winter orb and static orb.. How does Static Orb work without abuse?
And last question: How do u use gifts ungiven without regrowth? I only see crucible + academy ruins + sword combo working, or expensive gifts with sharuum.
Moat works great even though only Baneslayer Angel flies over it. Many of the creatures just need to hit the battlefield to do their job. I've once tried where it was a downside. Moat is very needed against aggro to survive. Yes Elspeth will also help against Moat but mostly if no one can attack = You win. Even more so because the titans just need to be on the battlefield to benefit.
I have tried World Queller but it doesn't work. There is never a permanent on the battlefield in which you can reap the opponent. Planeswalkers is not an option. Artifact or Enchantment also. Creature is obv. bad except for rare cases. It's really a downfall to Oath into Queller also. It even costs 5 mana which is a bit too much for a bad Braids. You can try it out if you like but I really didn't like it for many of the same reasons as Engineered Explosives is not in the deck.
No I don't run Blinkmoth Well or Clock of Omens because I rarely get mana to Well and there are so many other better lands out there. If I ever get to an environment where there is another Staxx player, I will play it again. Clock of Omens does nothing. It used to untap Obelisk of Alara like Voltaic Key while tapping a Winter Orb but not it has so few purposes left. It's a near-dead card to me.
Yeah Gifts Ungiven is great! You don't need any combo for it to be great. Luckily I got Academy Ruins, Crucible of Worlds, Sun Titan, Thopter-Sword combo, Sharuum and other great stuff but it can always tutor Damnation, Wrath of God, Moat and Oath of Druids against aggro for instance.
Between World Queller and braids, braids is much better because it work instantly and is cheaper to hard cast.
Moat is a great card, but personally I like humility better.
How is Null Brooch working for you ? The discarding seems bad but haven't tested it my self yet.
What about the abyss or mimic vat ? I know mimic is a bit slow but it Will work great whit titans and braids...
No doubt Braids is much better than Queller. The question is if Queller is good enough still but after many testing games I don't find any use of it. I used the ability less than once per game in average of the games I've had it on the battlefield. It was really bad.
Moat is great, Humility is just less powerful. It even turns the Titans into useless cards, which I do not want. I will test Humility again because of your message though.
The Abyss is also a great card but I don't need it right now. I think Wrath of God and Damnation are doing great jobs. The Abyss will make sure I can't win by damage untill it is removed, which is kind of sad. Have you tested it?
Mimic Vat seems off in this deck. There is not much to force creatures being put into GYs in this deck. I haven't tested this card. Should I?
Null Brooch has been quite good so far. It's really impossible to lose against control unless they're quite lucky if it has hit the battlefield. The first cost is 2 mana and your hand, which is often not much. Sometimes a Titan/Wildfire spell but mostly it's nothing. The second, third, fourth...cost is just 2 mana. At that point it's good against any deck.
Im using Humility because i often face Qasali Pridemage, Trygon Predator or others creatures whit sac destroy artifact/enchantments or flying...
No haven`t tested the abyss, I was hoping you had and could give me some info on it ;)
I will test mimic vat, null brooch and moat to night whit some friends...
I can imagine Humility is great against such creatures. Maybe I should actually try it again, hm..
The Abyss worked really well before the deck had creatures. Now it will just completely stop every single one of them because none of them can run around it (cept' Wurmcoil Engine, the sixth titan)
I like Null Brooch for now. Obviously it's bad in an aggro-meta-game but right now it's near instant win against many of my opponents.
Quote from: delta_strike on 01-04-2011, 08:54:49 PM
Im using Humility because i often face Qasali Pridemage, Trygon Predator or others creatures whit sac destroy artifact/enchantments or flying...
No haven`t tested the abyss, I was hoping you had and could give me some info on it ;)
I will test mimic vat, null brooch and moat to night whit some friends...
Mimic vat is bad, null brooch was great vs. Countrol decks very nice...
I tested moat to, but I need to test it a little more...
But I find it alot easier to remove moat then finding something to remove humility. But whit humility you need something to deal whit the 1/1 creatures.
But still I think humility is stronger because they can't use their creatures abilities and therefor humility is better protected...
Quote from: delta_strike on 03-04-2011, 01:04:48 PM
Mimic vat is bad, null brooch was great vs. Countrol decks very nice...
I tested moat to, but I need to test it a little more...
But I find it alot easier to remove moat then finding something to remove humility. But whit humility you need something to deal whit the 1/1 creatures.
But still I think humility is stronger because they can't use their creatures abilities and therefor humility is better protected...
Yeah Mimic Vat can't have been good :) I think we both knew that already. Null Brooch is really all-or-nothing but maybe it is worth playing a dead card in some cases if it straight out wins the game in other cases.
Humility sounds a bit like a better version than Crumbling Sanctuary to me that just also takes out the Titans. I can't wait to test it again. Let me know what you find in the future! Thx for the help!
Btw. A friend of mine played your Oath-Staxx Titans-Build yesterday, he reached a record of 4-3 after Swiss. None of the 6 Staxx-Decks was able to reach Top 8.
I can imagine it wasn't the same meta invironment :) But thx for sharing.
Quote from: Vazdru on 03-04-2011, 03:58:40 PM
Btw. A friend of mine played your Oath-Staxx Titans-Build yesterday, he reached a record of 4-3 after Swiss. None of the 6 Staxx-Decks was able to reach Top 8.
Do your friend have a report of the event ?I would be happy If i could get a small report of the event to see what cards/decks it had problems whit.
Quote from: delta_strike on 03-04-2011, 07:08:02 PM
Do your friend have a report of the event ?I would be happy If i could get a small report of the event to see what cards/decks it had problems whit.
No i don't think so. He's a busy buisnessman ;) but i'll ask him.
Which event was it? How many players?
Quote from: Kassow-Rossing on 03-04-2011, 07:51:20 PM
Which event was it? How many players?
Highlander GP VIII with 89 Players.
I played the deck there too, just a few other cardchoices (more aggro hate - firesprout, day of judgement).
Conclusion for me after this tourney: Stax is not Tier 1 deck anymore. I even had pretty strong draw's (oath turn 2 vs turn 1 critter etc). I think my oath did not won a single game. My opponents could handle every thread of mine without loosing a turn. The new aggro-generation is simply extremly flexible and aggressive. So everytime i played my oath -> it got destroyed before i even could use it (_everytime_). And the same happend for all other "aggro-hate (collective restraint, moat)" or acceleration.
Sylvan tutor, worldy tutor, eladamri's call, green zenit, fauna shaman along with harmonic sliver, quasali pridemage, wickerborn elder, vindicate, MSpulse, O-Ring, Krosan Grip + Counter is simply to much stuff which can destroy your mainplan for very less cost's.
I did not manage to lock down any of my opponents. Even in the long turn, each of my "lockdowns" or even wildfire and stuff did not win the game. I cannot say i did a big mistake in any of the games. The only matchup which is very solid, is the mu vs elves.
So to sum it up, i lost vs the "bant toolbox deck" or however you call that deck, i lost to pattern rector (my deck had nothing to throw at the combo after my lockdown was handled), and finally to the classic problem back to basic.
I observed a few games of the other staxx player's and i saw this problematic for all builds (mono blue stax, 5c Stax, 5c Oath Stax). Futhermore i saw often tables with which were able to cast any card of the deck, but the player had nothing in his hand. I think solid card-draw is missing too.
Top 8 consists only of different aggro-builds. It was kinda surprising for me to see on the first tables always the same cards battle each other. I'm a little bit dissapointed that not a single pure control or combo deck did manage to do any good result.
:/
I truly don't see 100% aggro builds at the Top8:
GoblinPiledriver – 5C Alara Aggro -> aggro
Peeler – Boros -> aggro
Sebastian – UG -> midrange
firestarter – Dark Bant-Control -> control
Tabris – UG -> midrange
Claus – RDW -> aggro
Fabian – WW -> aggro
Thomas – 4CBlood -> midrange
-> aggro: 50%
-> midrange: 37,5%
-> control: 12,5%
Thank you lasH. Thats what I been looking for. :)
Quote from: GoblinPiledriver on 04-04-2011, 12:49:00 AM
I truly don't see 100% aggro builds at the Top8:
GoblinPiledriver – 5C Alara Aggro -> aggro
Peeler – Boros -> aggro
Sebastian – UG -> midrange
firestarter – Dark Bant-Control -> control
Tabris – UG -> midrange
Claus – RDW -> aggro
Fabian – WW -> aggro
Thomas – 4CBlood -> midrange
-> aggro: 50%
-> midrange: 37,5%
-> control: 12,5%
Ya i choosed the wrong word. I still combine aggro with creatures. I wanted to say, top 8 consists of creature based decks (dont know about the deck of firestarter, i didnt saw a control deck on the tables, mb i missed something, but im sure you know it better because you know the players). Congrats to you for winning the tournament ;)
Thx U all for commenting. I will put it to the Think Tank for now. Where in Germany are the GP's held? Different locations?
Patrick
Quote from: LasH on 04-04-2011, 12:00:34 AM
I played the deck there too, just a few other cardchoices (more aggro hate - firesprout, day of judgement).
Conclusion for me after this tourney: Stax is not Tier 1 deck anymore. I even had pretty strong draw's (oath turn 2 vs turn 1 critter etc). I think my oath did not won a single game. My opponents could handle every thread of mine without loosing a turn. The new aggro-generation is simply extremly flexible and aggressive. So everytime i played my oath -> it got destroyed before i even could use it (_everytime_). And the same happend for all other "aggro-hate (collective restraint, moat)" or acceleration.
Sylvan tutor, worldy tutor, eladamri's call, green zenit, fauna shaman along with harmonic sliver, quasali pridemage, wickerborn elder, vindicate, MSpulse, O-Ring, Krosan Grip + Counter is simply to much stuff which can destroy your mainplan for very less cost's.
Hm maybe you played the deck wrong because against a turn 1 critter, Oath always wins me the game. Oath is simply an extra "Either you win the game and if not then you get card advantage for cheap mana". The deck doesn't depend that much on Oath of Druids. Same goes for Collective Restraint and Moat. They are only in there to stall the time or to seal the life total after an Armageddon or stuff. Besides you shouldn't play Firespout. Day of Judgment is alright but I don't think you need three different Wrath's.
Quote from: LasH on 04-04-2011, 12:00:34 AM
I did not manage to lock down any of my opponents. Even in the long turn, each of my "lockdowns" or even wildfire and stuff did not win the game. I cannot say i did a big mistake in any of the games. The only matchup which is very solid, is the mu vs elves.
So to sum it up, i lost vs the "bant toolbox deck" or however you call that deck, i lost to pattern rector (my deck had nothing to throw at the combo after my lockdown was handled), and finally to the classic problem back to basic.
The deck is suppose to lock down the opponent and force him to cast very few spells during each game compared to what they usually would and thus you're winning with your largely more powerfull bombs like planeswalkers or creatures. If you don't succeed in that mission, it will be difficult to win. Resolving a Wildfire in this deck is like what resolving a Cruel Ultimatum in 5-Colour Control was one year ago: I really never lose after that unless s a situation with bad luck follows. If my opponent has Crucible of Worlds on the battlefield, it is also useless to cast. I'm sorry you lost to those decks but maybe you should try and play it a little more. It is one of the most difficult decks to play or this format.
Quote from: LasH on 04-04-2011, 12:00:34 AM
I observed a few games of the other staxx player's and i saw this problematic for all builds (mono blue stax, 5c Stax, 5c Oath Stax). Futhermore i saw often tables with which were able to cast any card of the deck, but the player had nothing in his hand. I think solid card-draw is missing too.
The point in this deck is not to have any cards in hand but to always have the better board. That is why it rushes to bomb spells and ruining all opponents permanents thus giving him a large hand but no board. I think one maybe should test some more card advantage though. I've been thinking about the cookie card Consecrated Sphinx but I'm not sure if it's really powerful enough. Cryptic Command is most likely also too much blue and Tidings is inefficient. Mind Spring was in the deck for a long time with Martial Coup but they just seemed a bit off. I don't know which cards to test except for Consecrated Sphinx.
I tested many times against vs aggro decks and one of them being goblinpiledriver version. And it's been around 60-40% to the stax deck.
My build is a little driffent from kassow buts it's only 5-7 cards.
Have you tried memory jar for card advantage ? I saw it's getting unbanned soon.
Quote from: Kassow-Rossing on 12-04-2011, 06:30:43 PM
Hm maybe you played the deck wrong because against a turn 1 critter, Oath always wins me the game. Oath is simply an extra "Either you win the game and if not then you get card advantage for cheap mana". The deck doesn't depend that much on Oath of Druids. Same goes for Collective Restraint and Moat. They are only in there to stall the time or to seal the life total after an Armageddon or stuff. Besides you shouldn't play Firespout. Day of Judgment is alright but I don't think you need three different Wrath's.
That's exactly my point of view. These cards should stall time, but they did not in my games because they got destroyed _everytime_ on the next turn of my opponent. They didnt gave me a single extra turn (and by the way trading 1to1 is no card advantage). Firespout turned out to be the best bord cleaner i had..Each time i could resolve it, it killed at least 2 creatures a turn earlier than wrath and that was so essential. By the way, did u ever face turn 2 gaddock? Your deck runs exactly 3 answers. And every good player will tutor him against stax, while you cannot tutor vindicate/mspulse/(o-ring, because it can get easy handled) in a way they can search gaddock. Futhermore your answers cost YOU another turn and make your opponents faster. Thats something u kinda never wanna do in stax, but it turned out to be essential, because otherwise you have autoloss vs early gaddock or early back to basic (which i faced ofc 3 times turn2!!).
Quote from: Kassow-Rossing on 12-04-2011, 06:30:43 PM
The deck is suppose to lock down the opponent and force him to cast very few spells during each game compared to what they usually would and thus you're winning with your largely more powerfull bombs like planeswalkers or creatures. If you don't succeed in that mission, it will be difficult to win. Resolving a Wildfire in this deck is like what resolving a Cruel Ultimatum in 5-Colour Control was one year ago: I really never lose after that unless s a situation with bad luck follows. If my opponent has Crucible of Worlds on the battlefield, it is also useless to cast. I'm sorry you lost to those decks but maybe you should try and play it a little more. It is one of the most difficult decks to play or this format.
I have to say 2 things about this: First you're right ofc. I kinda know what stax is doing ;). The powerful bombs "planeswalker" do all bant aggro decks play too. These decks are not slower in casting them, because they have even better acceleration in the first 2 turns. Ofc a bant cannot race a Titan, but they do alot of dmg with their creatures too. Exspecially Stoneforge Mystic is a big thread for Stax, because both swords (feat and famine, fire/ice) are total pain for stax. And its nearly impossible to handle an equipped creature for this deck. Feast and famine makes every lock useless, and fire/ice makes wildfire obsolete. This is just the worst scenario, but its so damn fricking fast and played in every bant. I dont understand, how you did not manage to face this situation yet. What do you do vs this start with your deck, if you dont have your 3 1to1 trades or maze? Exactly nothing.
Quote from: Kassow-Rossing on 12-04-2011, 06:30:43 PM
The point in this deck is not to have any cards in hand but to always have the better board. That is why it rushes to bomb spells and ruining all opponents permanents thus giving him a large hand but no board. I think one maybe should test some more card advantage though. I've been thinking about the cookie card Consecrated Sphinx but I'm not sure if it's really powerful enough. Cryptic Command is most likely also too much blue and Tidings is inefficient. Mind Spring was in the deck for a long time with Martial Coup but they just seemed a bit off. I don't know which cards to test except for Consecrated Sphinx.
All i can say about the first part, is said alrdy before.
Memory Jar will surely solve the draw problem, and maybe we see goblin welder back in buisness, to increase card advantage to the maximum.
My final conclusion for stax in this meta: You cannot run enchantments any longer to stop aggro (Abyss, Collective restraint, oath, moat, because they are TO slow and/or get destroyed instantly). You need cards that handle dangerous situations the turn you cast them. Means you need to run removal (Slagstorm, Firespout, maybe even stuff like swords), bc the first 3 turns turn out to be as essential as they were never before.
Quote from: LasH on 13-04-2011, 11:52:12 AM
That's exactly my point of view. These cards should stall time, but they did not in my games because they got destroyed _everytime_ on the next turn of my opponent. They didnt gave me a single extra turn (and by the way trading 1to1 is no card advantage). Firespout turned out to be the best bord cleaner i had..Each time i could resolve it, it killed at least 2 creatures a turn earlier than wrath and that was so essential. By the way, did u ever face turn 2 gaddock? Your deck runs exactly 3 answers. And every good player will tutor him against stax, while you cannot tutor vindicate/mspulse/(o-ring, because it can get easy handled) in a way they can search gaddock. Futhermore your answers cost YOU another turn and make your opponents faster. Thats something u kinda never wanna do in stax, but it turned out to be essential, because otherwise you have autoloss vs early gaddock or early back to basic (which i faced ofc 3 times turn2!!).
What you mentioned is the actual problem of Staxx in this meta. Strong 3-5 colored aggrodecks run enough answers in form of artifact/enchantment removal and counter without being slowed down. Not playing Firespout is not acceptable IMO. Firespout and Fiery Justice are probably the best "mass"removal spells 5c decks run atm. Both only cost 3 mana and often trade 1:2 or even better. Despite WoG, DoJ and Damnation costing double colored mana (which is often harder to access than triple single mana) AND have CC of 4 they are not good enough most of the times you can play them. Additional I have to say that Geddock Teek does not even see that much play but is one of the strongest cards vs Staxx. Trying to lock down the opponent is very hard nowadays because aggrodecks are very flexible and controldecks have to run a lot more good creatures (good creatures are OBV the best way to deal with aggrodecks) which makes locking harder as well. I'd never say Staxx is dead and not worth playing anymore but Staxx already lost its consistency some time ago and right now its even harder to build a decent Staxx-version.
Cards like Boneshredder, Shriekmaw, Venser, Glen, Sower, Flametongue Kavu, Skinrender, Wall of Denial etc etc etc pppppp are suited best for controlldecks to beat aggro; they are not very staxxfriendly but should be taken into consideration as well. Chunky cards like Abyss, Moat etc are still very strong but without luck you opponent can handle them like np and just keep hitting your face :[.
Quote from: delta_strike on 03-04-2011, 07:08:02 PM
Quote from: Vazdru on 03-04-2011, 03:58:40 PM
Btw. A friend of mine played your Oath-Staxx Titans-Build yesterday, he reached a record of 4-3 after Swiss. None of the 6 Staxx-Decks was able to reach Top 8.
Do your friend have a report of the event ?I would be happy If i could get a small report of the event to see what cards/decks it had problems whit.
At least he told me about the matches:
Wins:
vs RDW-Globlins - Staxx offered always the right solutions
vs 4C-Aggro - Oath made the difference
vs UW-Control - mana-denial didn't get countered
vs (3C?)-Aggro - Oath T2 for an easy win
Losses:
vs UW-Control - this time key cards have been countered, mana-stones and anti-aggro-cards aren't enough to beat UW
vs 3C-Aggro - opponent was too fast, no oath appeared
vs Bant - flooded, T1 Workshop wasn't enough (-Wasteland), Moat isn't as good as in earlier times - Bant has too many solutions for (Elspeth, O-Ring, Pride-Mage, Fliers...)
Thanks for the report vazdru.:) very nice of you.