Banned List - Comparison different HL formats

[Mythrandir]

BTW, you DO need to build around Ancestral in Vintage. If you don't, you won't be the one drawing extra cards during the game.

Building around and being staple is very different, IMO.

[coldcrow]

I dislike that no one brings actual examples.
considering not being TPS:

So for will not being a recollect you need to: have access to >5 mana and a somewhat useful grave.
So most of the time winning through YW will be if you topdeck it in developed baord situation. How different is that from, say: NO, Gifts, DT etcetcetc. Not to mention that these cards are better at actually winning, because they do not care about your grave.
Repeat: The only decks which can really abuse will to some extent are TPS and tutor/mana heavy MBC. For every other deck splashing black it will be another mediocre to very good recursion card (depending on mana/grave).

[ntamashahr]

Yeah I think so too

[LasH]

I dislike that no one brings actual examples.
considering not being TPS:

So for will not being a recollect you need to: have access to >5 mana and a somewhat useful grave.
So most of the time winning through YW will be if you topdeck it in developed baord situation. How different is that from, say: NO, Gifts, DT etcetcetc. Not to mention that these cards are better at actually winning, because they do not care about your grave.
Repeat: The only decks which can really abuse will to some extent are TPS and tutor/mana heavy MBC. For every other deck splashing black it will be another mediocre to very good recursion card (depending on mana/grave).

What about the dreamhalls combo? YW will boost any combo deck alot (even dragonstorm highlander will use it - a rare decktyp but i know it was played 2 grand prix ago (More or less succesfull, but top 20 if i remember correctly). Not only TPs will profit, all storm combo decks will from an unban. Do we want to make combo decks better? I agree that it won't boost the decks played alot atm, but if you unban a card you should always watch more than the current meta. A thing u cant do well. And everybody will agree, that this is a boost for every combo deck, and we dont want combo decks to go to tier1.

[coldcrow]

Dreamhalls can only abuse YW if it already resolved the enchantment and in that case Dreamhalls mostly wins anyways.
What YW does for Stormdecks is making the Tutors better, it is not a tutor itself. Other combo like Aluren or Pattern wouldn't even play it.

Do you really see a problem in making Stormcombo a bit more competetive? Why not construct these TPS lists Sturmgott listed and play them, without will and the other banned cards first.

[Kristian]

I dislike that no one brings actual examples.
considering not being TPS:

So for will not being a recollect you need to: have access to >5 mana and a somewhat useful grave.
So most of the time winning through YW will be if you topdeck it in developed baord situation. How different is that from, say: NO, Gifts, DT etcetcetc. Not to mention that these cards are better at actually winning, because they do not care about your grave.
Repeat: The only decks which can really abuse will to some extent are TPS and tutor/mana heavy MBC. For every other deck splashing black it will be another mediocre to very good recursion card (depending on mana/grave).

What about the dreamhalls combo? YW will boost any combo deck alot (even dragonstorm highlander will use it - a rare decktyp but i know it was played 2 grand prix ago (More or less succesfull, but top 20 if i remember correctly). Not only TPs will profit, all storm combo decks will from an unban. Do we want to make combo decks better? I agree that it won't boost the decks played alot atm, but if you unban a card you should always watch more than the current meta. A thing u cant do well. And everybody will agree, that this is a boost for every combo deck, and we dont want combo decks to go to tier1.

I think coldcrow posted his response in the wrong topic :O

Dreamhalls can only abuse YW if it already resolved the enchantment and in that case Dreamhalls mostly wins anyways.
What YW does for Stormdecks is making the Tutors better, it is not a tutor itself. Other combo like Aluren or Pattern wouldn't even play it.

Do you really see a problem in making Stormcombo a bit more competetive? Why not construct these TPS lists Sturmgott listed and play them, without will and the other banned cards first.

http://www.magicplayer.org/forum/index.php?topic=501.msg5441#msg5441

and we dont want combo decks to go to tier1.

Why do we not want combo decks to go to tier 1? Why shouldn't all 3 archetypes be viable? Why is it only that aggro and control should be allowed to do that?

[coldcrow]

Thanks Kristian!

Could a mod move my former post to the Banned List comparison topic please?

[Vazdru]

Could a mod move my former post to the Banned List comparison topic please?

done

[LasH]

Why do we not want combo decks to go to tier 1? Why shouldn't all 3 archetypes be viable? Why is it only that aggro and control should be allowed to do that?

Because we want interaction. I suggest you read some topic's from "highlander founder" frank topel aka sturmgott about this discussion.

[Nastaboi]

What about the dreamhalls combo? YW will boost any combo deck alot (even dragonstorm highlander will use it - a rare decktyp but i know it was played 2 grand prix ago (More or less succesfull, but top 20 if i remember correctly). Not only TPs will profit, all storm combo decks will from an unban. Do we want to make combo decks better? I agree that it won't boost the decks played alot atm, but if you unban a card you should always watch more than the current meta. A thing u cant do well. And everybody will agree, that this is a boost for every combo deck, and we dont want combo decks to go to tier1.

Hi LasH,

I can see that you are really concerned about the idea of unbanning Will, and you have every right to feel bad and express your feelings. The sky isn't falling, the council isn't changing anything before April, and will not do so on light grounds. You have the right on your opinions, but you can only speak on behalf yourself. So please, don't claim that everybody have similar thoughts on a given subject, or tell us what we can or cannot do. Thank you.

On topic, most combo decks don't really care about Will as already stated. I for myself would love to see borderline playable decks like TPS-Dragonstorm to became serious alternatives, but I fear it needs more than just Will to accomplish that.

[Kristian]

Why do we not want combo decks to go to tier 1? Why shouldn't all 3 archetypes be viable? Why is it only that aggro and control should be allowed to do that?

Because we want interaction. I suggest you read some topic's from "highlander founder" frank topel aka sturmgott about this discussion.

So we don't want combo decks to be equally viable when compared with control and aggro?

[God_of_War]

What about the dreamhalls combo?

Sorry, but Dreamhalls combo? Which dreamhalls-"combos" are out there? DH+Conflux/Prog/Cruel Ultimatum (see T1.5)? So is Show and Tell+Emrakul also a "combo"? Its very clear that YW+DH does nothing on its own, u need a bunch of other good cards to "go off". And one last question about DH: How many decks play DH atm? Im really interested.

YW will boost any combo deck alot

No.

even dragonstorm highlander will use it - a rare decktyp but i know it was played 2 grand prix ago

Dont think I really have to comment this any further.

Not only TPs will profit, all storm combo decks will from an unban.

How many Storm-Combo decks are out there right now? Zero?

I agree that it won't boost the decks played alot atm,

Aha.

but if you unban a card you should always watch more than the current meta. A thing u cant do well.

So according to this reasoning, how can you ever unban a card? Hm?

And everybody will agree, that this is a boost for every combo deck

No, again.

and we dont want combo decks to go to tier1.

Aha, so with YW unbanning Combo will be tier 1 (Dragonstorm maybe?), interesting.

[LasH]

What about the dreamhalls combo?

Sorry, but Dreamhalls combo? Which dreamhalls-"combos" are out there? DH+Conflux/Prog/Cruel Ultimatum (see T1.5)? So is Show and Tell+Emrakul also a "combo"? Its very clear that YW+DH does nothing on its own, u need a bunch of other good cards to "go off". And one last question about DH: How many decks play DH atm? Im really interested.

YW will boost any combo deck alot

No.

even dragonstorm highlander will use it - a rare decktyp but i know it was played 2 grand prix ago

Dont think I really have to comment this any further.

Not only TPs will profit, all storm combo decks will from an unban.

How many Storm-Combo decks are out there right now? Zero?

I agree that it won't boost the decks played alot atm,

Aha.

but if you unban a card you should always watch more than the current meta. A thing u cant do well.

So according to this reasoning, how can you ever unban a card? Hm?

And everybody will agree, that this is a boost for every combo deck

No, again.

and we dont want combo decks to go to tier1.

Aha, so with YW unbanning Combo will be tier 1 (Dragonstorm maybe?), interesting.

Very constructive god of war. If u can't discuss in a proper way dont talk to me.

If all think yw needs an unban go for it. Not the first time ppl need to remember what makes a format frustrating. (Hi Library)

and @ nastboi: I play for about 15 years now and i read the discussions about a highlander format from the very first time. If i say "we" i only the speak for ppl who want interaction in the format. And i know that the majority decided once to not make combo tier1. Council changed, so did principles?

And im done now, i stated my opinion and i feel like its just a discussion about me vs the rest. So i close my statements with

Don't open that box of Pandora again!

hf all

[Kristian]

LasH, please comment

Why do we not want combo decks to go to tier 1? Why shouldn't all 3 archetypes be viable? Why is it only that aggro and control should be allowed to do that?

Because we want interaction. I suggest you read some topic's from "highlander founder" frank topel aka sturmgott about this discussion.

So we don't want combo decks to be equally viable when compared with control and aggro?

[Tiggupiru]

Combo shouldn't be tier 1, because people who don't know how to play against it, think they cannot interact with it.