Highlander Magic

Comparison of both Banned Lists Highlander and Singleton.

Just cards available in both formats:
                  
      


      

HIGHLANDER	SINGLETON
Balance	Balance
NO	Crucible of Worlds
NO	Demonic Tutor
Buried Alive	NO
Cephalid Illusionist	NO
Dread Return	NO
Enlightened Tutor	NO
Entomb	NO
Fastbond	Fastbond
Flash	Flash
Grindstone	NO
NO	Gifts Ungiven
Imperial Seal	Imperial Seal
NO	Intuition
Life from the Loam	Life from the Loam
Library of Alexandria	Library of Alexandria
Lion's Eye Diamond	Lions Eye Diamond
Mana Crypt	Mana Crypt
Mana Vault	Mana Vault
Memory Jar	NO
Mind Twist	Mind Twist
NO	Regrowth
Mystical Tutor	NO
Skullclamp	Skullclamp
NO	Senseis Divining Top
Sol Ring	Sol Ring
Strip Mine	Strip Mine
Survival of the Fittest	Survival of the Fittest
Time Vault	Time Vault
Tinker	Tinker
Tolarian Academy	Tolarian Academy
Trinisphere	NO
Umezawa's Jitte	Umezawas Jitte
Vampiric Tutor	Vampiric Tutor
Wheel of Fortune	Wheel of Fortune
Yawgmoth's Will	NO

                     

Memory Jar could be safe to come off, although the effect is inherently not fair :)

yawg will not banned? interesting.

well, the fact that there is sideboard and a different mull rule probably alters it a bit.

Also, i have no exp in MTGO, but do you encounter the best-deck possible? or do deck builds try to go a bit "peasant"?

Well Yawgmoth's Will could be easily unbanned without much effect. On the other hand I don't know what the hell were they thinking when they banned Regrowth and Top in Singleton. Regrowth is only any good with Gifts/Intuition which both are already banned and the only reason I can think Top getting hammered is that it takes quite a lot of time to operate with it properly some times which is hardly an issue online.

Quote from: so notWell Yawgmoth's Will could be easily unbanned without much effect.

Could you elaborate on this? Because I heard quite an opposite opinion from some other prolific player recently.

Quote from: pyyhttu on 27-01-2011, 06:53:34 PM

Quote from: so notWell Yawgmoth's Will could be easily unbanned without much effect.

Could you elaborate on this? Because I heard quite an opposite opinion from some other prolific player recently.

Indeed. yawg Will, even in non-combo is incredible powerful, and combo would only abuse this.

And yes, regrowth ban is silly.

Well maybe I'm just stupid but I don't really see how Will would be a problem. What does it do in non-combo? Even in combo there are no moxen, lotus, led and only a few rituals. Storm combos are so bad that it wouldn't hurt to give them some tools. Are you afraid that High Tide would splash black for Demonic and Will? Wouldn't that be cool!

So_not is right. Will could be played in some combo decks but it would make them only marginally better. It could be played in control, too, but most of time it will just be overpriced Regrowth. It would decide drawn-out control matches there and then, but at that point any good topdeck would. Storm combos built to abuse it would be mediocre at best. The bright side is, one could play it in MBC.

Yawgmoth's Will, eh? I guess I could throw my two cents in the mix. I think it's really powerful with cards that aren't good, unless you play combo (rituals, most of the one mana library manipulation cards... etc.). It would give TPS one huge bomb to use in conjunction with their rituals, which is not a problem. Plus it's a friggin' sweet card and very cool to play with. In favor of unbanning.

Since we are comparing the two formats, I'd also like to point out that Enlightened and Mystical are unbanned in singleton... Pretty please? With a sugar on top?

I am with the pro-will faction. As tiggupiru said, will is broken with cheap mana acceleration, which we don't have in HL besides the rituals. that would give my beloved TPS a little push, but as you can see pattern, aluren and other combo decks reliably end the game in the first 3-5 turns if unmolested and TPS is not faster at all. Turn 4-5 I'd probably say since the main combo needs more mana or specific cards (rituals). also the sacland version of tps is highly vulnerable to nonbasic hate.

On the other hand mana-ramp decks get another very good sorcery, but since will is reliant on tutors you might have casted before I doubt it will break them.

Mystical + Will I wouldn't allow :) MT can get will, and in the will turn you can cast MT + cantrip into whatever you want to get. That would probably boost TPS.

I'm pro will as well, I don't think we have much combo decks which can abuse it really hard, lot's of combo stuff is banned like before said tutors/led/comboparts and we don't have this big fastmana problems. Overall it's a really nice card which would give some weak decks a bit of push. I think memory jar is another candidate to think about could be testet.
If we look at the last few highlanderevents with bigger coveragelist (hanau, mannheim) the most abused card at the moment is Natural Order, many decks are possible to run it and it wins lots of games. I think with Bribery there is an answer availible but should be watched because it's nearly a one card no-brainer with big winoption.

I like the idea of it being unbanned, would leave me with an excuse to get it after all :D

I think Will and Memory Jar should come of the list, they aint too powerful.
Why is Enlightened Tutor banned btw? I mean it's a good tutor, but its best target (SotF) is banned,
so imo it shouldnt be banned. (I mean DT is legal...c'mon...)

Enlightened Tutor has been explained here: http://magicplayer.org/#blcs709
Don't think a translation exists.

Quote from: pyyhttu on 30-01-2011, 12:02:24 AM
Enlightened Tutor has been explained here: http://magicplayer.org/#blcs709
Don't think a translation exists.

Google translate (http://translate.google.com):

QuoteWenn es zuletzt Signale gab, dass Karten im Format problematisch sind, so waren dies unserer Meinung nach vor allem drei Verzauberungen: Survival of the Fittest, Back to Basics und Blood Moon, wie auch ein Artefakt: Winter Orb. Diese Karten entschieden in den letzten Monaten mit Abstand die meisten Spiele. Die Turnierergebnisse der letzten Monate zeigten dies ebenso wie die persönlichen Erfahrungen der Ratsmitglieder. Da jedoch alle drei Karten derzeit als wichtig für die Balance des Formates erachtet werden, haben wir uns entschieden, den für diese Karten allerbesten Tutor aus dem Format zu verbannen. Ebenfalls haben wir das Unbanning von Mystical Tutor erwogen und diskutiert, waren jedoch einhellig der Meinung, dass Mystical Tutor nicht gut für das Format ist. Allein die Vorstellung, das Mystical im Stax je nach Situation am Ende des generischen Turns (!) Armageddon, Wildfire, Upheaval, Mind Twist oder Gifts Ungiven findet, dürfte deutlich genug machen, dass Mystical viel zu gut ist.

If it were modified signals that size cards are problematic, so these were our opinion, three main Enchantments: Survival of the Fittest, Back to Basics, Blood Moon, as well as an artifact: Winter Orb. These cards held in recent months by far the most games. Tournament results in recent months have seen this as well as the personal experiences of council members. However, since all three cards are currently regarded as important for the balance of the format, we have decided to banish the very best Tutor for these cards from the format. We also have the Unbanning of Mystical Tutor considered and discussed, however, were unanimously of the opinion that Mystical Tutor is not good for the format. But the idea that the Mystical in the Stax depending on the situation at the end of the generic Turns (!) Armageddon, Wild Fire, Upheaval, Mind Twist and Gifts by Ungiven, should make it clear enough that Mystical is too good.

"There are signals in the format right no we are concerned about. I am talking about three enchantments which can be problematic but are also neccesary for the format.Survival of the fittest, Blood Moon and Back to Basic. Also Winter Orb is a viable target for the tutor. A lof of games were decided by those cards in the last time. Since we are certain to keep those cards in the format we´ve decided to ban the card which is able to search for all of them.

We´ve also considered to unban mystical tutor but since its to powerful to search for wildfire, armageddon, gifts ungiven or mind twist at the end of turn we closed that case realy fast."

a fast translation.

edit: uh google did a good job ;D

I am I the only one who thinks building 5CC with a full nonbasic suite, should be punished? I get Enlightened being problematic when Survival was on the format (I don't think E. Tutor was banworthy even then, because the real problem is the card it finds), but to justify banning of a card because it finds Blood Moon feels like saying "This card is good against decks that I want to play, so let's ban it." The lands, not least because of the five new fetches we received, are enabling practically anything you could want and not being effectively punish from that is just plain silly. Winter Orb is good card in certain decks, but if cards like that are on the format, you can prepare for it instead of just playing like it doesn't exist and blame being unlucky when it caught you off guard.

What comes to Mystical, I present the same argument: The problem is not the tutor, but the cards it finds. Mind Twist is now banned, which is really good as it's one of the better targets for EOT Mystical. Finding Gifts Ungiven is really good, but getting it via Mystical takes effectively two turns and a draw step (and Gifts is bonkers if you have the time to play it effectively). Again, Gifts is in the format, prepare for it.

I also don't understand the fear you have towards Stax. Mystical is good there, sure, but it's not like the deck is seeing much play even in bigger events and I've not seen it top8 for a long while. Has the deck been a boogie-man in the early format, because I remember other banning decisions referencing some card that is "good in Stax"? The rest of the cards in the Mystical debate: Upheaval, Wildfire and Armageddon are all cards that will not all see play in the same deck, excluding Stax. I played it in some tournament going 0-2 and I've never lost a match against it, so I really don't think the deck is nearly as good as it probably was when the format was young.

I seriously think the time when these cards were kind of problematic, is gone.

Quote from: Tiggupiru on 30-01-2011, 01:28:11 PM
I am I the only one who thinks building 5CC with a full nonbasic suite, should be punished?

Well, one appealing quality (to me at least) of the the highlander format is exactly this! The availability and viability of multicolored decks. I feel the whole format stands and falls with the amount of non-basic hate viable. Note the use of the word "viable". This is where Enlightened Tutor plays its part.

The thing is: you want non-basic hate in the format, but you don't want it te be too good (read: easily splashable/tutorable).

In this regard, Mystical Tutor is in fact even scarier than Enlightened Tutor because it gets Price of Progress.

As an aside, I'd also appreciate the unbanning of Yawgmoth's  Will.

I think Memory Jar will get unbanned soon because its obv. not broken anymore. IMO Memjar should be able to see play for at least 6 or more months but thats not my decision. Yawgmoths Will is still easier to abuse but w/o LED its just a decent card, nothing more. Both cards have seen play in STAXX and thats the reason they are still banned.. ppl fear staxx variations because its boring/senseless to play against with casual 5C Zombies or MonoR Dwarfs. Its kinda the same with Oath of Druids. Ppl dont like to play against those archtypes so they call for moar bannings. I still hear ppl say Oath is imba although it's obv not. (even WITH LftL and Enlight. Tutor it was not).

If we take a look back to Dust Bowl, Timetwister, Power Artifact etc it was always the same. Those cards were too risky to unban. And now? Most Staxx-Decks don't even play either Dust Bowl, Timetwister or Power Artifact. Other Decktypes never did.

SotF is sth completly different which is obv at the very first look.

I mostly worried that Mystical and Enlightened Tutor will pave way for more unfun decks to play against. I don't know if that'll happen, just that I wouldn't want it to :O. Both would be autoincludes in my deck, but I don't know if it'd be healthy for the format.

Quote from: Maqi on 30-01-2011, 02:58:55 PM

Quote from: Tiggupiru on 30-01-2011, 01:28:11 PM
I am I the only one who thinks building 5CC with a full nonbasic suite, should be punished?

Well, one appealing quality (to me at least) of the the highlander format is exactly this! The availability and viability of multicolored decks. I feel the whole format stands and falls with the amount of non-basic hate viable. Note the use of the word "viable". This is where Enlightened Tutor plays its part.

The thing is: you want non-basic hate in the format, but you don't want it te be too good (read: easily splashable/tutorable).

If the non-basic hate is too weak or nonexistent, there is no reason not to splash anything and everything. This would result most of the decks being nearly identical 5C - decks with 15 or so slots with personal preference cards. Wizards themselves think printing Vivid lands and Reflecting Pool as mistake, because it allowed manabases that were able to support Cryptic Command, Cloudthresher and Cruel Ultimatum without any trouble. This is totally against the core principles of Magic, which is that every color has strengths and weaknesses. With perfect rainbow manabase, there are no weaknesses and all the strengths.

And besides, something like three colored decks will have NO trouble functioning with B2B or Blood Moon in play, if the manabase and curve is build with that in mind. You just can't get too greedy by splashing the last two colors or having turn one drops from all of your three colors, as long as there are things keeping that in check. 5CC is still viable even with unbanning of Enlightened and even if it weren't, they would just have to be little bit less greedy.

Quote from: MarcMagic on 30-01-2011, 03:55:39 PMI think Memory Jar will get unbanned soon because its obv. not broken anymore. IMO Memjar should be able to see play for at least 6 or more months but thats not my decision. Yawgmoths Will is still easier to abuse but w/o LED its just a decent card, nothing more. Both cards have seen play in STAXX and thats the reason they are still banned.. ppl fear staxx variations because its boring/senseless to play against with casual 5C Zombies or MonoR Dwarfs. Its kinda the same with Oath of Druids. Ppl dont like to play against those archtypes so they call for moar bannings. I still hear ppl say Oath is imba although it's obv not. (even WITH LftL and Enlight. Tutor it was not).

If we take a look back to Dust Bowl, Timetwister, Power Artifact etc it was always the same. Those cards were too risky to unban. And now? Most Staxx-Decks don't even play either Dust Bowl, Timetwister or Power Artifact. Other Decktypes never did.

SotF is sth completly different which is obv at the very first look.

This pretty much exactly how I see the situation.

I want Loam back.

QuoteI am I the only one who thinks building 5CC with a full nonbasic suite, should be punished?

That's exactly my opinion. As you've pointed out, without substantial non-basic hate, everyone will just play 3-5 colors.
Every deck has to make a decision:
a) Play all the Goodies from 3-5 colors
b) Play 1-2 colors and get at most 5(!) good hate-cards (Magus of the Moon, Blood Moon, Ruination, Price of Progress, B2B)
Imo the decision is VERY clear...

Right now, there are (correct me if I am wrong) exactly 2 decks that could/would play the combination of ET+BM/B2B: Boros and UW-Control.
Another thing to realize is, that Demonic Tutor is legal, and the format is NOT degenerated because of that. With that said, I think ET-unbanning is perfectly fine. Yes, it is a good card and yes, quite a bunch of decks will play it, but that doesn't justify a banning.

QuoteThe thing is: you want non-basic hate in the format, but you don't want it te be too good (read: easily splashable/tutorable)

Since when can you "splash" non-basic hate? So you play your 2C-deck and splash in red or blue? How good ist that, honestly?

QuoteIn this regard, Mystical Tutor is in fact even scarier than Enlightened Tutor because it gets Price of Progress.

Aha so, you play UR-Control (does this even exist?) or are you going to "splash" that PoP in your 3C-deck again? I hope you do understand that this is not an argument at all.

QuoteI mostly worried that Mystical and Enlightened Tutor will pave way for more unfun decks to play against.

Aha, so what is "unfun"? Flash+Hulk clearly is, but ET? MT?

QuoteI don't know if that'll happen, just that I wouldn't want it to.

That's exactly what Wizards does in Legacy. We all know that Land Tax for example is perfectly fine (in HL) and it's by no means broken in Legacy (I think people wouldnt even play it but...). They have the "It's on the ban list, so it's gonna stay there because it MIGHT do something crazy, which we cant figure out and we then might look silly"-attidude.


Imo the following should be done: ET,Will,Jar should come off the list. Then if the format tends to be degenerated (after 3-6 month or so, which I highly doubt) these cards can be easily re-banned.
As a side note, Natural Order is a far more powerful card than any of those and is legal.

Quote from: God_of_War on 30-01-2011, 06:31:01 PM

QuoteI mostly worried that Mystical and Enlightened Tutor will pave way for more unfun decks to play against.

Aha, so what is "unfun"? Flash+Hulk clearly is, but ET? MT?

QuoteI don't know if that'll happen, just that I wouldn't want it to.

That's exactly what Wizards does in Legacy. We all know that Land Tax for example is perfectly fine (in HL) and it's by no means broken in Legacy (I think people wouldnt even play it but...). They have the "It's on the ban list, so it's gonna stay there because it MIGHT do something crazy, which we cant figure out and we then might look silly"-attidude.

I'm not allowed to be worried about my local meta getting warped into something I don't like playing in? If you read what I write, you'll understand that I'm not opposed to unbanning of cards, I'm opposed to unbanning cards that'll ruin the game for me. I'm not saying Enlightened Tutor or Mystical Tutor will do so, I just want the council to make sure they make the right decision.

QuoteAnother thing to realize is, that Demonic Tutor is legal, and the format is NOT degenerated because of that. With that said, I think ET-unbanning is perfectly fine. Yes, it is a good card and yes, quite a bunch of decks will play it, but that doesn't justify a banning.

ET is alot different from DT. The instant part is very, very powerful. Just look at personal tutor, it's available and it's rarely used.
It won't break anything by unbanning it. There's too many non hate out there, so one tutor won't make that huge difference.
Imperial seal being banned seems a lot more weird to me, at least i can't really see a huge difference between that and DT, does it enable faster combos?

Quote from: God_of_War on 30-01-2011, 06:31:01 PM

QuoteThe thing is: you want non-basic hate in the format, but you don't want it te be too good (read: easily splashable/tutorable)

Since when can you "splash" non-basic hate? So you play your 2C-deck and splash in red or blue? How good ist that, honestly?

Maybe I wasn't accurate enough when using the word "splash". What I meant was running a hosing mana denial card in a deck, that normally doesn't focus on "prisoning" your opponent. One good example might be High Tide Combo, that runs B2B just because it wins games in its own right. Another example are Patrick Richter's decks from a year or so ago, which were 4-5c brews, that additionally packed Enlightened Tutor + B2B or Moon, so one could tutor eot, then untap and pseudo-armageddon the opponent.

Quote from: God_of_War on 30-01-2011, 06:31:01 PM

QuoteIn this regard, Mystical Tutor is in fact even scarier than Enlightened Tutor because it gets Price of Progress.

Aha so, you play UR-Control (does this even exist?) or are you going to "splash" that PoP in your 3C-deck again? I hope you do understand that this is not an argument at all.

Clearly both decks you mentioned - Boros and UW-Control - are much less scary than UR-Control. Maybe it doesn't exist in your meta, but Counterburn with access to eot-tutoring for PoP, Bribery, All is Dust, Rolling Earthquake or Pulse of the Forge is the real deal.

Quote from: God_of_War on 30-01-2011, 06:31:01 PM

QuoteI mostly worried that Mystical and Enlightened Tutor will pave way for more unfun decks to play against.

Aha, so what is "unfun"? Flash+Hulk clearly is, but ET? MT?

Really nothing is unfun about ET and MT. However, arguably nobody would correlate "fun" with cards like PoP, B2B, Blood Moon and Natural Order.

Quote from: Tiggupiru on 30-01-2011, 04:54:52 PM
If the non-basic hate is too weak or nonexistent, there is no reason not to splash anything and everything. This would result most of the decks being nearly identical 5C - decks with 15 or so slots with personal preference cards. Wizards themselves think printing Vivid lands and Reflecting Pool as mistake, because it allowed manabases that were able to support Cryptic Command, Cloudthresher and Cruel Ultimatum without any trouble. This is totally against the core principles of Magic, which is that every color has strengths and weaknesses. With perfect rainbow manabase, there are no weaknesses and all the strengths.

The formats where Vivid lands mattered didn't have a card pool as diverse and deep as the Highlander card pool and in no way did they have non-basic hate as good as we have. So even if 10 people decided on playing 5c, there wouldn't be the exact same 10 builds. And I'm not talking about only few metagame cards that would be different. You could design such a deck as an Oath-Control deck, as a Dream Halls Combo-Control deck, as a 5c Good Stuff deck, as a Mid-Range or even Aggro deck, Ramp-Scapeshift etc. And still this doesn't kill off lesser color builds in terms of metagame diversity. 4-5c builds must commit to one (or two) primary colors (usually green and/or blue) and cannot afford to run more than very few double+ mana cards from outside their main colors.

People keep saying you can easily just play 4-5c and encounter no problems. That is not true at all. Wasteland is often enough to cripple your game plan, as are Ajani Vengeant or Rishadan Port. Tectonic Edge is almost a staple these days.

I have the gut feeling that those arguments are based on metagames which tip on the control/combo-side of the spectrum, where games tend to last longer. Or let's be more precise: where the crucial turns that typically determine the outcome of a game take place later in the game. It is much easier to consolidate your mana base in longer, drawn out games.

So, after all that I will say ET and MT should stay on the list.

QuoteET is alot different from DT. The instant part is very, very powerful. Just look at personal tutor, it's available and it's rarely used.
It won't break anything by unbanning it. There's too many non hate out there, so one tutor won't make that huge difference.
Imperial seal being banned seems a lot more weird to me, at least i can't really see a huge difference between that and DT, does it enable faster combos?

Being instant is indeed powerful, but getting ANY card in your hand and not on top is very, very, very poweful. Do you really want to argue about DT>>>>ET? If you want to make that comparison, take Vampiric please. Vamp gets any card at instant speed for 2 life, while DT gets the card at sorcery speed in your hand (+1 mana). The correct question should be: Should Vamp come off the list? Or DT join the list? Now everyone is gonna scream, I know...
Why is there too much non-basic hate? There are five, repeat five cards (4 being red) that hate non-basics, how can this be too much hate?
And you understand that personal tutor gets only sorcerys, so it's not a "sorcery-speed mystical"?
Regarding Imperial Seal, it's banned for money issues and that's perfectly fine imo.

QuoteOne good example might be High Tide Combo, that runs B2B just because it wins games in its own right.

And what's the problem? If you play a fair amount of basics in your deck, B2B wont simply win. On the other hand, if you play like 25 or more nonbasics, then yes, you gonna lose vs that B2B and that's exactly how it should be. Lets analyze it:

1)A lot of players play a lot of non-basics
2)Some players pick up on that fact and play non-basic hate, even if it's completely anti-synergistic (e.g Tide)
Now there are two ways:
3.a)Play the same deck you always played and cry about the "bad non-basic" hate that shouldnt exist, and neither should the tutors, so you can play your deck as always
3.b)Play a deck with more basics and better mana base (maybe only 2-colored?)
4.b)Those players playin the non-basic hate will play less non-basic hate, because it aint that useful anymore
5.b)Go to step 1 again

QuoteAnother example are Patrick Richter's decks from a year or so ago, which were 4-5c brews, that additionally packed Enlightened Tutor + B2B or Moon, so one could tutor eot, then untap and pseudo-armageddon the opponent.

Ok, so one guy played some rogue decks that played ET+B2B/Moon, does this prove anything at all? How many other decks follow this strategy?

QuoteClearly both decks you mentioned - Boros and UW-Control - are much less scary than UR-Control. Maybe it doesn't exist in your meta, but Counterburn with access to eot-tutoring for PoP, Bribery, All is Dust, Rolling Earthquake or Pulse of the Forge is the real deal.

I havent seen any Counterburn list yet, so maybe you can post/link one? At the moment I cant really tell how good that deck is becase I've never seen it.

QuoteWasteland is often enough to cripple your game plan, as are Ajani Vengeant or Rishadan Port. Tectonic Edge is almost a staple these days.

I wont comment on Ajani, but on Wasteland:
Lets take a look at Legacy: What keeps mana bases "in check"? Answer: Wasteland. Now there's a huge difference, because having 4/60 or 1/100 is not even close. So this argument is not true for HL. You wont play vs tripple Wasteland to destroy your shaky mana base. Wasteland is one card out of 100. If Loam was unbanned things would look way much different obviously. (Im not saying Loam should be unbanned, dont get me wrong)
The thing is, Wasteland does not hose 3-5C strategies, its rather an "utility" land which randomly kills other utility lands, cuts someone off a color or sets both players back a turn.

Woah. This conversation got derailed pretty bad. This is the last thing I am going to say about nonbasics:

I really don't see why you are so hung up on the ET being a problematic nonbasic hater when it's essentially a Back to Basics / Blood Moon that costs four and gives you -1 card advantage. In addition, you can't even play it on the turn you draw it. I also happen know it's more versatile than that, but your only argument against it is that this very bad Back to Basics, is in danger of making 5 colored deck way worse. If this were the case, those decks would be in some serious problems when Wizards prints another three mana variant of non-basic hate. You are clearly campaigning against B2B, Blood Moon and Price of Progress, which these cards happen to find, not the tutors themselves.

Besides, even if these unbannings would make non-basics bad or atleast significantly worse (which they wouldn't), it also would make two-colored and monocolored strategies more viable as they are immune to hate cards, so it's not like the format suddenly would go narrower.

I also am full aware that there are no Vivid Pool manabases in HL, but I brought it up to give a clear example why these things should matter.

I believe that the banning of the tutors is ok.
Actually as much as I would like playing them in my UW Control, I don´t want to play against them in a Staxx or Prison deck.
Giving those decks multiple copies of their "don´t you wanna conceed" options, would be terribad. (Smokestack, Winter Orb (wich should be banned), Upheavel, Moat, etc)
Giving Pattern Rector two copies of Natural Order (wich should be banned) and Pattern of Rebirth is just insane.
The crucial part of those tutors is the instant speed, it allows the player the wait for the right moment to find either the win option or the game breaker for the current situation.
The argument that those cards are banned because they enable non basic hate decks is imo a little strange, because there is one deck that specialised in this field. The truth is that these cards would make good decks a whole lot better. ET and MT favor Control, Combo and Denial decks and give them an adge against Aggro decks wich is not ok omo.

Btw if a resolved B2B/BM/PoP always ends the Game, you should reconsider your build or your playstyle.

Just my two cents...

Actually I have another question:

Why is Timetwister legal and Wheel of Fortune isn´t, or vis versa...?

Quote from: Maggot on 31-01-2011, 06:34:48 AM
Why is Timetwister legal and Wheel of Fortune isn´t, or vis versa...?

Because Wheel is insane in Mono R and Timetwister is not... ;)

Additionally, filling up your grave leads to more broken plays, while emptying graves prevents brokenness.

Quote from: God_of_War on 30-01-2011, 11:22:56 PM

Regarding Imperial Seal, it's banned for money issues and that's perfectly fine imo.

Money issues? I thought that wasn't a reson to ban card! Just look at workshop, mana drain, LoA (while it was unbanned) and TIMETWISTER! Also ravages of war is pretty expensive. So i'm guessing money wasn't the reason...

And i well aware that personal is only sorcery fetcher, but if it was at instant speed, it would see heavy play, believe me!

Not to throw more wood into the fire, but there's clearly more nonbasic hate than just 4 cards. ;)
Anyway i played with ET unbanned/banned and i don't noticed any major changes, it wasn't broken, but i guess i got over it being banned.

Quote from: MythrandirMoney issues? I thought that wasn't a reson to ban card!

I doubt whether a card's price has earlier on been *solely* a decisive factor, but I can imagine it has helped making the decision on Imperial Seal. See Sturmgott's answer to form your understanding: http://magicplayer.org/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=896&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=16

Once again it's in German, but babel/google/bing translation should help you out.

Quote from: pyyhttu on 31-01-2011, 09:52:21 PM

Quote from: MythrandirMoney issues? I thought that wasn't a reson to ban card!

I doubt whether a card's price has earlier on been *solely* a decisive factor, but I can imagine it has helped making the decision on Imperial Seal. See Sturmgott's answer to form your understanding: http://magicplayer.org/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=896&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=16

Once again it's in German, but babel/google/bing translation should help you out.

Indeed. Availability (aka, money issue) was a factor on banning. Well, that's weird, they should just ban the entire PK3, that would make it a lot easier, IMO and more consistent.

QuoteBecause Wheel is insane in Mono R and Timetwister is not...

Is RDW really such a threat? And is Wheel really an I-Win-Card? Maybe vs control but vs aggro (Naya,WW,Boros...) I highly doubt it.

QuoteNot to throw more wood into the fire, but there's clearly more nonbasic hate than just 4 cards.

First, I said 5 and second take a look:
http://www.magiccards.info/query?q=o%3Anonbasic&s=cmc&v=card&p=1
40 cards all together that have the word "nonbasic" and I wont analyze them all, but it can be easily figured which are playable/junk etc.

QuoteAnyway i played with ET unbanned/banned and i don't noticed any major changes, it wasn't broken, but i guess i got over it being banned.

That's my opinion.

Quote from: Mythrandir on 31-01-2011, 10:00:11 PM
Well, that's weird, they should just ban the entire PK3, that would make it a lot easier, IMO and more consistent.

Most cards of the set being played are functional reprints. So the original cards already are available in the format. In my oppinion, those cards interfere with the "there can be only one" clause of the format. If you want to play Armageddon, Earthquake, Wildfire etc. as a 4-of, you can switch to other constructed formats. The reduced redundancy is what makes highlander special to me.

As the set wasn't planned to reach the european/american market ever, it's card to get your hands on those cards. Combined with the fact, that those cards aren't really needed (no decktype is base on one of the cards/mechanics), I absolutely agree with Mythrandir to take out the entire set.

Quote from: Maggot on 31-01-2011, 06:22:55 AMActually as much as I would like playing them in my UW Control, I don´t want to play against them in a Staxx or Prison deck. Giving those decks multiple copies of their "don´t you wanna conceed" options, would be terribad. (Smokestack, Winter Orb (wich should be banned), Upheavel, Moat, etc)

So, you really don't want to play against Staxx and because of this, those cards should be banned? This goes well with the points I stated earlier, the deck is not nearly as good as people credit it and just because you don't like playing against it, doesn't mean it's correct to ban a card that is not a problem. You can also use MT and ET to find answers to the above cards. It's not an one-sided deal.

Banning Winter Orb is like the WTF of the century. I've seen games where someone dies to his own Orb, despite playing it (in my opinion, at least) correctly. You can easily prepare for a card like that by adding more pressure to the board, which makes the WO unattractive to play. You can play more artifact acceleration in your control deck, you can avoid tapping out when it's not absolutely needed... etc. It's really good card, but sometimes it's just a dead draw or too risky to play, because the board is even.

Quote from: Maggot on 31-01-2011, 06:22:55 AMGiving Pattern Rector two copies of Natural Order (wich should be banned) and Pattern of Rebirth is just insane.

I am unsure if you want blue in that deck, but MT would be a decent fit in it if that were the case. The same goes for the ET, it's good, but it's not pushing the deck into a new level or anything. It just replaces the worst tutor currently in the deck (and the deck is full of them) with somewhat better, but very limited, seeing as Pattern is the worst combo piece you could have.

Quote from: Maggot on 31-01-2011, 06:22:55 AMET and MT favor Control, Combo and Denial decks and give them an adge against Aggro decks wich is not ok omo.

You want Winter Orb banned, which is one of the better weapons aggro can have against combo/control, but don't want cards (that aggro can also use, no less), because they are good against them? WW for example would *love* to have Enlightened Tutor at their disposal.

@Portal: If you say that P3K should be banned because of functional reprints, I think you still have a problem with the other Portals and Wizards Strategy of building functional reprints in new editions like Savannah Lion / Elite Vanguard etc.
Banning Ravages of War would give 4/5-C decks another boost and on the other side it would availible playable decks like WW and Staxx which are still not in best position.
What's about Rolling Earthquake, Sea Drake, Imperial Recruiter, etc. you would loose all of them by banning Portal.
So I personal think if we have a discussion if this fits into the Highlanderformat it has to be should we allow only one copy of a functional reprinted card at all.
If we do this it would be very easy from the banlist perspective, if we do the other way round, banning all functional reprints and add any new to the banlist we will
end up with a huge banlist.
In both cases it will end up with big effort for TO's checking the decklists (first case much more) and I think it's questionable if this is necessary.
But again if the argument is it's feeling weird to have multiple copies of one card in a highlander deck there should be only one functional reprint of any card, otherwise it's not really consistent.
Of course you should not forget all this players which spend lot of time to get their copies of P3K cards for huge amount of money which will be annoyed that they can't play them anymore.
I think on ban/unban LoA there were lot of discussions about that afterwards.

By the way, I can play full power 9 in Singleton and Commander?

Seems like most people advocating the unbanning of Yawgmoth's Will haven't played at the time it actually WAS unbanned. TPS is just too much of a powerhouse if Will AND Gifts is allowed.

See these decklists:

http://magicplayer.org/?id=GP2Top8&deck=GP2Top8Platz5
http://magicplayer.org/?id=GP2Top8&deck=GP2Top8Platz4

We have done excessive testing on TPS builds, and also playtested alot of stuff against it and easily came to the conclusion, that this deck is

a) way too fast,
b) much too hard to interrupt, even if you have a good opening hand vs. it.

TPS ruins the metagame since it forces control decks to sacrifice too many slots to be able to battle it and thus worsen its matchups vs. either aggro or other control decks. This basically leads to control becoming non-viable.

Don't open that box of Pandora again!

When did you test TPS? Back in 2006 or 2010/11?
Quite a lot of things have changed since then:

a)LED banned. This is huge. Consider the following Gifts pile: LED,Will,Recoup,Ritual which is very good vs any deck that doesnt play counters. Without LED Gifts and Will get a lot weaker.
b)Burning wish is effectivly banned
c)Lots of very decent graveyard hate has been printed since then and could be played easily (without sacrificing anything in the other matchups). Right now (most) people dont play any graveyard hate at all.
d)Academy is banned.
e)Mana Vault is banned.

So TPS lost a bunch of very good mana producing cards. Another thing to realize is the fact, that in the last 4 years a lot of good/very good creatures have been printed, while basicly no (playable) tutors (correct me if Im wrong). Therefore the powerlevel of the creature-based decks has risen significantly, while TPS powerlevel didnt.
And the last thing I want to mention about TPS is, that this deck made 2 slots in 1HL GP (not even place 1 and 2!), that's at least imo perfectly fine.

Another interesting would be to read something about:
1)Mystical Tutor
2)Enlightened Tutor
3)Demonic Tutor (in comparison to ET/MT/Imperial Seal)
4)Memory Jar
5)Wheel of Fortune
from a member of the HL council and the reasoning behind.

Sure we tested back in those days. It should be noteworthy that only 3 TPS players attended that GP, out of which two made Top 8!

TPS was the main reason we began to stick to a policy that would prevent combo decks from being tier 1 in HL at all. We had to hit a decision whether we wanted permission-based control and midrange decks in the format, or rather combo decks. Since HL is all about interactivity - and combo decks are the least interactive of all deck types - we concluded that we would by far have a much more fun format w/o tier one combo decks while not reducing competitiveness. Another problem with TPS is that it can literally go off with no setup other than 4 mana producing permanents on the board, which at the time will not allow a player to ever spend all his mana unless he knows the combo player's hand.

We have done almost a thousand test games at the time, and even though your arguments with alot of manaexplosion being banned now are valid, I strongly recommend to not ever allow Yawgmoth's Will back into HL unless Gifts and Intuition become banned, both of which are of huge importance for the viability of control decks!

Quote from: derStefan82 on 01-02-2011, 10:59:10 AM
@Portal: If you say that P3K should be banned because of functional reprints, I think you still have a problem with the other Portals and Wizards Strategy of building functional reprints in new editions like Savannah Lion / Elite Vanguard etc.
Banning Ravages of War would give 4/5-C decks another boost and on the other side it would availible playable decks like WW and Staxx which are still not in best position.
What's about Rolling Earthquake, Sea Drake, Imperial Recruiter, etc. you would loose all of them by banning Portal.
So I personal think if we have a discussion if this fits into the Highlanderformat it has to be should we allow only one copy of a functional reprinted card at all.
If we do this it would be very easy from the banlist perspective, if we do the other way round, banning all functional reprints and add any new to the banlist we will
end up with a huge banlist.
In both cases it will end up with big effort for TO's checking the decklists (first case much more) and I think it's questionable if this is necessary.
But again if the argument is it's feeling weird to have multiple copies of one card in a highlander deck there should be only one functional reprint of any card, otherwise it's not really consistent.
Of course you should not forget all this players which spend lot of time to get their copies of P3K cards for huge amount of money which will be annoyed that they can't play them anymore.
I think on ban/unban LoA there were lot of discussions about that afterwards.

By the way, I can play full power 9 in Singleton and Commander?

I say it's more consistent to ban the whole set, just because of availability. This was, at least, one of the reasons to ban Imperial, however every single card from that set is incredibly expensive and hard to get. Specially if you consider functional reprints. And ok, imperial is a new card, sea drake is a new card, but when you think of it, giving 100€ for a ravage of war when you have geddon that usually costs 7-10€ is a bit steep, IMO.
And yes, i don't like functional reprints, i think they make the format worse (personal opinion) however, things like elite vanguard/lions are easily available.

Just like holiday promos (e.g. fruitcake elemental) there's no real reason to ban these other than availability.

All holiday promos are silver-borderd Fun Cards so they need to be banned just like every other silver-bordered Unglued or Unhinged card.

List of all holiday promos:
Fruitcake Elemental
Gifts Given
Evil Presents
Season's Beatings
Snow Mercy       (need to be banned to)

Quote from: GoblinPiledriver on 01-02-2011, 08:36:49 PM
All holiday promos are silver-borderd Fun Cards so they need to be banned just like every other silver-bordered Unglued or Unhinged card.

List of all holiday promos:
Fruitcake Elemental
Gifts Given
Evil Presents
Season's Beatings
Snow Mercy       (need to be banned to)

I mentioned these because unlike unhinged and unglued, these can be easily transformed into playable cards.  Some easier than others...
And i don't think these are banned because of silver-bordered... but because they are "funny" and hard to get. Fruitcake elemental has nothing wrong with it in terms of rules. I was merely illustrating availability = banning.

BTW, insteadoff just banning each card that appears in "holiday form" it would just be easier to say: Silver borded cards are banned..." Then there would be no need to keep updating that list. :)

Functional reprints allow ppl to build decks around some specific strategy. I like it because if you don't like them you don't have to play them. You can play WW without Armageddon, play 1 rnd Armageddon or even add Ravages of War. So its up to you whether you want to build your deck around 2 geddon effect, 1 or none. I think one bad but at the same time good thing of highlander is it "randomness". It is fun to play lots of different cards (without lands: ~60 different cards instead of standard with ~15 different cards) but having no sideboard and those small factor to get specific cards its nice to have another cool card which works very well with your deck etc.. but that's just my opinion. And the only reason for me to ban cards is the power lvl. If there are decks which are clearly imba because of 1 card, this card should not be able to see play anymore. Best example is Flash Hulk. But banning cards for money reason is bullshit.. okay, imperial seal has been banned since loooong ago. This fucking card costs 250 Euro and does nothing in other formats  (ofc there are some vintage decks which play it as another copy of vampiric tutor..) and is even worse than another card which is banned. Imperial seal wouldn't be banned today its just still on the list and there is no reason to remove it imo. I think ppl shall just play other decks when they can't get some cards. It was mentioned 100 times, Highlander is like 1:100 and not 4:60 so missing 1 expensive card won't ruin the entire deck. If you cannot play w/o this card then just build another deck. I mean look at standard, 4 jaces in almost every blue deck.. thats 280+ Euro for 4 cards and it is STANDARD. I don't think we should blame Highlander for these few expensive cards or ban cards for this reason : ).

There's another option nobody mentioned yet: Proxies. Being able to prox those uber-expensive cards means that everyone can play them.

In my opinion proxies should NEVER be allowed. If you can neither afford, nor borrow a card - so what? You simply don't play it! This is how our world works... almost. You can still play EVERY legal card e.g. in our online league.

If you want to play a game that's completely fair, go play chess. Those who have struggled hard and worked for their set of expensive cards should NEVER be punished by having to play vs. proxies.

Allowing proxies is nothing less than the beginning of the end of the game.

Quote from: Sturmgott on 01-02-2011, 11:22:55 PM
In my opinion proxies should NEVER be allowed. If you can neither afford, nor borrow a card - so what? You simply don't play it! This is how our world works... almost. You can still play EVERY legal card e.g. in our online league.

If you want to play a game that's completely fair, go play chess. Those who have struggled hard and worked for their set of expensive cards should NEVER be punished by having to play vs. proxies.

Allowing proxies is nothing less than the beginning of the end of the game.

And yet you do allow proxies in the form of CE and other non tournament legal -sets. (These are not allowed by organizers in Finland any more)


I consider Highlander as eternal format by heart so in my opinion it would make no sense to ban Portal sets. In that manner I agree with Sturmgott that you should not punish players for making the investment.
I also strongly think that all legality and banning policies should somehow relate to the DCI's procedures. Of course not all banlists should be alike but if a card is banned in Legacy and/or Singleton or restricted in Vintage it's effect on this format should be continuously re-evalued. I'm actually quite happy with the banlist right now but also think that Will and Jar would not have very deep impact. Combo decks nowadays (like hightide, pattern-hulk, aluren or even ub-thopterdepths) are much better than those old TPS versions and still they don't produce any kind of problem whatsoever. Mystical and Imperial Seal should stay banned anyway, LED is a bit so-so, Enlightened might actually be a bit dangerous since it fetches Thopter-combo pieces.

The instant tutor's are broken. I think they all should stay banned. I also dont like worldy tutor in the format, since it does nearly the same as the other tutors in specific decks. Since creatures get better and better in every set, you can tutor winoptions like staxx tutored win options with mystical and enlightned (gaddock, MagusofMoon, etb effects which turn the bord or just the last dmg you need).

About yawgmoth's will..Gesus..How can ppl even talk about that card. It should stay in the deepest room of the banhouse. There is a reason why the card got reprinted for 8cc in the most recent set. YW is still broken in highlander. Regrowth trades 1:1, YW will ALWAYS trade at least 2:1 (Land + Spell) or in most cases..even better or even straight win the game.

I would love to see Portal 3 cards banned. The reduced redundancy is what makes highlander special to me, too. Futhermore its ridiculous to force ppl to buy an armageddon for 120 euro, Wildfire for 40 Euro or Earthquake for 70 Euro. (Yes force. thats the argument on the Library ban-since u always wanna run the best cards for your deck, and armageddon is for example a option in every aggro deck, staxx, firesgeddon, so u wanna run 2 copies there).

But on the other hand, we have a pretty stable meta right now. Its kinda healthy thanks to the lftl ban.

I agree on putting memory jar on the "watch list" at least.

So conclusion:

Stay banned/ban: YW, MT, ET, P3 Cards
Unban: Memory Jar

Quote
And yet you do allow proxies in the form of CE and other non tournament legal -sets. (These are not allowed by organizers in Finland any more)

In my opinion it makes a huge difference whether you have a clearly defined list of proxies - which have all been PRODUCED by WotC! - or whether you open the box of "How does a proxy have to be made?" - "Written with a soft felt pen all over it, or printed?" - "How does a tournament organizer make sure proxies cannot be 'felt' because it is thicker/thinner/, more/less bendable...?"

Apart from that - IE/CE have been legal from the very beginning of this HL 'movement' as well as all Portal sets - long before WotC allowed the latter for tournament play in Eternal Formats, even long before these were even called so. This is an absolute CORE rule of HL and in my opinion absolutely not a matter of discussion at any point in time.

BANNING/WATCHLIST:
Mana Drain - Having this on turn two is too often good game.
Demonic Tutor - Imperial Seal is banned and this one is allowed? Best card in your deck, always.
Gifts Ungiven - giving you 2/4 of your best cards in your deck on instant speed cannot be fair. Having Witness/Regrowth in the pile is unfair.
Natural Order - 3 turn "win" way too often
Sensei, DT - just because this card needs too much time and Highlander already has time issues.  Fetchlands are annoying enough...

I have very seldomly lost a game where I resolved one of the first four cards mentioned. Yes, all cards are Combo/Control and would create an even more creature focused metagame but they are overpowered and often unfun. ...and I am a Control player 4 Life...

UNBAN:

Trinisphere? - Just broken with Workshop IMO. But I am also fine with it on the list.

I would NEVER EVER unban Yawgoth´s Win as I am too experienced with it and know what can be done with this card (former Vintage player).

I don´t know for Memory Jar but it will be another "good game" card for Staxx. Is this requested? Perhaps we should give it a try, but is it necessary for the format?

P3K:
Banning cards because of price reasons is not what I would like to see. The Library was banned because of winning the Control Mirror by itself.

CE Proxies:
These cards are still proxies for me. I would like to see the ban of all CE Cards but can life with the current situation. Its just another factor where people laugh at our format.

Quote from: MMD on 02-02-2011, 08:57:38 PM
I would NEVER EVER unban Yawgoth´s Win as I am too experienced with it and know what can be done with this card (former Vintage player).

I don´t know for Memory Jar but it will be another "good game" card for Staxx. Is this requested? Perhaps we should give it a try, but is it necessary for the format?

Quote from: LasH on 02-02-2011, 11:59:21 AM
About yawgmoth's will..Gesus..How can ppl even talk about that card. It should stay in the deepest room of the banhouse. There is a reason why the card got reprinted for 8cc in the most recent set. YW is still broken in highlander. Regrowth trades 1:1, YW will ALWAYS trade at least 2:1 (Land + Spell) or in most cases..even better or even straight win the game.

These are not valid arguments against Will. Why do you think the card is bonkers? What does it actually do in any existing or non-existing deck that is considered so utterly broken? If your argument was something like: "IMO Gifts for Grim Discovery, Will, Vampire Hexmage and Dark Depths will break the format" -for example then you would at least have some substance to support your opinion.

On top of that Staxx is pretty awful deck so that should not be a deciding factor.

Quote from: so_not on 02-02-2011, 11:13:42 AMEnlightened might actually be a bit dangerous since it fetches Thopter-combo pieces.

If we are making Thopter-combo part of the reason not to unban ET, I'd like to point out that Gifts finds the whole combo by itself. :)


And to those who are scared shitless by the Will: It's sick in vintage because of absurd powerlevel of certain cards, and easy access to fast mana. No lotuses, moxen, Recall, multiple Dark Rituals and GushGushGush/Fastbond in HL.

I don't get the fuss over Will neither. You should really play a bit of Vintage to see why it is named Yawgwin there.
Tiggu said it: fast mana, cheap tutors, recall, gush.

Now examine what we ahev in our format:
- 2 black rits, a few red ones, petal, 3 bad moxen (which have to get into the grave before)
- DT, worldly, call, fabricate, idyllic, grim
- BS, ideas unbound, meditate, whisper and so on.

mana is the limiting factor there, so the only deck which can really abuse YW will be TPS. And please, TPS is hardly good at this time.
The other deck would be MBC, and yes mbc is not tier 1.

Imho the real reason why it is dangerous would be that the manaramp decks will get another huge CA / I win button card.

Quote from: Tiggupiru on 03-02-2011, 01:39:39 AM
If we are making Thopter-combo part of the reason not to unban ET, I'd like to point out that Gifts finds the whole combo by itself. :)

Gifts is a one card combo by itself and obviously the best tutor of all time. I can't think of any better reasons for ET to be banned and thopter-combo is already quite easy to get online.

Enlightenend Tutor - is at least another 2nd turn Oath of Druids. Who wants that?
Yawgmoth´s Will - I will not participate on a discussion about the power level of this card because it is O B V I O U S , also in Highlander

Quote from: MMD on 02-02-2011, 08:57:38 PM
Mana Drain - Having this on turn two is too often good game.
Demonic Tutor - Imperial Seal is banned and this one is allowed? Best card in your deck, always.
Gifts Ungiven - giving you 2/4 of your best cards in your deck on instant speed cannot be fair. Having Witness/Regrowth in the pile is unfair.
Natural Order - 3 turn "win" way too often
Sensei, DT - just because this card needs too much time and Highlander already has time issues.  Fetchlands are annoying enough...

I have very seldomly lost a game where I resolved one of the first four cards mentioned.

Just FYI, I've kept some record and Gifts has won thus far roughly 80 % games where it's resolved while Demonic has won barely over 60 %. (Jace, the Mind Sculptor has impressive 100 % win percentage, but that's only ten sample games.) I can keep record for NO also if you want to.

And honestly, I dare anyone to construct a deck that abuses Will and is even remotely good. Just tossing Will in some top tier deck does not count, it has to be a bomb in that deck, and better wincon than e.g. planeswalkers.

And people, please please stop being so absolute, especially you who write in caps.

Quote

And honestly, I dare anyone to construct a deck that abuses Will and is even remotely good. Just tossing Will in some top tier deck does not count, it has to be a bomb in that deck, and better wincon than e.g. planeswalkers.

Why would you construct a deck around will? You auto-include it in every black deck. I think its comparebale to mind-twist. Its simply always good, simply to splash.And lets dont start the discussion about counter or grave removal). You dont build a deck around certain cards, they are simply set, because they are so good that they win by itself no matter what your deck goes for. Any blue deck without Gifts? Do u need to build around gifts? Do u need to build around Ancestral in Vintage? Do u need to build around Jace 2.0? And after those, again: Do u need to build around YW?

And its even better than the named ones, bc it can bring back them all at once. No we dont need another "i win alone" card. Rather ban jace2.0 and gifts, too.

I have been playing HL now for several years. I think that the target of any format is to have it as stabile as possible. In that sense I feel that the banning of cards should take into account real situations and decks. The format changes at least a bit 4 times a year, this means every time a new set comes out. Just because some card was broken in 1999, 2006 or 2009 does not mean that it still is. I would like to see some fact to support the fact that will should not be banned. Of course the effect is a powerful one but I feel that this format has other effects that are at least as broken as the effect of Will.

My opinion is to unban it. I feel that a MBC deck would be much better then and that it still would not make the deck "the deck to beat". I also feel that Jace 2.0 or Mana Drain on the same power level as Will. Natural Order and Wasteland are in my opinion far better cards than Will, but I still would not ban them.

I am sure that there are situations where Will will win you the game, but that's the situation with other cards as well. I hate the fact that some people only talk using words like ALWAYS and NEVER. Magic as a game and HL as a format is constantly changing and that should be taken into account. If Will is too broken in this format then so be it, but I will not belive it until I see some decklists/playtest results. Just because it was broken in the past or other formats is no excuse. Facts count.

What comes to proxies in general, I feel that CE and the likes are fine. I really don't care if you have proxied your deck and I have spent some hundred euros on mine. I obtain my cards for myself and not because of others. In tournaments though I would prefer people playing with genuine cards.

LasH: Although I appreciate that you too see the problem with Gifts, most time Will does not win the game by itself like it. Usually it's just bad Regrowth.

But don't take my word on it, I will toss Will in every deck I have right now and see if it wins every time. (Yes they all play black already splashing Demonic.)

BTW, you DO need to build around Ancestral in Vintage. If you don't, you won't be the one drawing extra cards during the game.

QuoteBTW, you DO need to build around Ancestral in Vintage. If you don't, you won't be the one drawing extra cards during the game.

Building around and being staple is very different, IMO.

I dislike that no one brings actual examples.
considering not being TPS:

So for will not being a recollect you need to: have access to >5 mana and a somewhat useful grave.
So most of the time winning through YW will be if you topdeck it in developed baord situation. How different is that from, say: NO, Gifts, DT etcetcetc. Not to mention that these cards are better at actually winning, because they do not care about your grave.
Repeat: The only decks which can really abuse will to some extent are TPS and tutor/mana heavy MBC. For every other deck splashing black it will be another mediocre to very good recursion card (depending on mana/grave).

Yeah I think so too

Quote from: coldcrow on 04-02-2011, 04:41:49 AM
I dislike that no one brings actual examples.
considering not being TPS:

So for will not being a recollect you need to: have access to >5 mana and a somewhat useful grave.
So most of the time winning through YW will be if you topdeck it in developed baord situation. How different is that from, say: NO, Gifts, DT etcetcetc. Not to mention that these cards are better at actually winning, because they do not care about your grave.
Repeat: The only decks which can really abuse will to some extent are TPS and tutor/mana heavy MBC. For every other deck splashing black it will be another mediocre to very good recursion card (depending on mana/grave).

What about the dreamhalls combo? YW will boost any combo deck alot (even dragonstorm highlander will use it - a rare decktyp but i know it was played 2 grand prix ago (More or less succesfull, but top 20 if i remember correctly). Not only TPs will profit, all storm combo decks will from an unban. Do we want to make combo decks better? I agree that it won't boost the decks played alot atm, but if you unban a card you should always watch more than the current meta. A thing u cant do well. And everybody will agree, that this is a boost for every combo deck, and we dont want combo decks to go to tier1.

Dreamhalls can only abuse YW if it already resolved the enchantment and in that case Dreamhalls mostly wins anyways.
What YW does for Stormdecks is making the Tutors better, it is not a tutor itself. Other combo like Aluren or Pattern wouldn't even play it.

Do you really see a problem in making Stormcombo a bit more competetive? Why not construct these TPS lists Sturmgott listed and play them, without will and the other banned cards first.

Quote from: LasH on 06-02-2011, 12:17:48 PM

Quote from: coldcrow on 04-02-2011, 04:41:49 AM
I dislike that no one brings actual examples.
considering not being TPS:

So for will not being a recollect you need to: have access to >5 mana and a somewhat useful grave.
So most of the time winning through YW will be if you topdeck it in developed baord situation. How different is that from, say: NO, Gifts, DT etcetcetc. Not to mention that these cards are better at actually winning, because they do not care about your grave.
Repeat: The only decks which can really abuse will to some extent are TPS and tutor/mana heavy MBC. For every other deck splashing black it will be another mediocre to very good recursion card (depending on mana/grave).

What about the dreamhalls combo? YW will boost any combo deck alot (even dragonstorm highlander will use it - a rare decktyp but i know it was played 2 grand prix ago (More or less succesfull, but top 20 if i remember correctly). Not only TPs will profit, all storm combo decks will from an unban. Do we want to make combo decks better? I agree that it won't boost the decks played alot atm, but if you unban a card you should always watch more than the current meta. A thing u cant do well. And everybody will agree, that this is a boost for every combo deck, and we dont want combo decks to go to tier1.

I think coldcrow posted his response in the wrong topic :O

Quote from: coldcrow on 06-02-2011, 01:18:14 PM
Dreamhalls can only abuse YW if it already resolved the enchantment and in that case Dreamhalls mostly wins anyways.
What YW does for Stormdecks is making the Tutors better, it is not a tutor itself. Other combo like Aluren or Pattern wouldn't even play it.

Do you really see a problem in making Stormcombo a bit more competetive? Why not construct these TPS lists Sturmgott listed and play them, without will and the other banned cards first.

http://www.magicplayer.org/forum/index.php?topic=501.msg5441#msg5441

Quote from: LasH on 06-02-2011, 12:17:48 PM
and we dont want combo decks to go to tier1.

Why do we not want combo decks to go to tier 1? Why shouldn't all 3 archetypes be viable? Why is it only that aggro and control should be allowed to do that?

Thanks Kristian!

Could a mod move my former post to the Banned List comparison topic please?

Quote from: coldcrow on 06-02-2011, 01:57:54 PM
Could a mod move my former post to the Banned List comparison topic please?

done

Quote
Why do we not want combo decks to go to tier 1? Why shouldn't all 3 archetypes be viable? Why is it only that aggro and control should be allowed to do that?

Because we want interaction. I suggest you read some topic's from "highlander founder" frank topel aka sturmgott about this discussion.

Quote from: LasH on 06-02-2011, 12:17:48 PM
What about the dreamhalls combo? YW will boost any combo deck alot (even dragonstorm highlander will use it - a rare decktyp but i know it was played 2 grand prix ago (More or less succesfull, but top 20 if i remember correctly). Not only TPs will profit, all storm combo decks will from an unban. Do we want to make combo decks better? I agree that it won't boost the decks played alot atm, but if you unban a card you should always watch more than the current meta. A thing u cant do well. And everybody will agree, that this is a boost for every combo deck, and we dont want combo decks to go to tier1.

Hi LasH,

I can see that you are really concerned about the idea of unbanning Will, and you have every right to feel bad and express your feelings. The sky isn't falling, the council isn't changing anything before April, and will not do so on light grounds. You have the right on your opinions, but you can only speak on behalf yourself. So please, don't claim that everybody have similar thoughts on a given subject, or tell us what we can or cannot do. Thank you.

On topic, most combo decks don't really care about Will as already stated. I for myself would love to see borderline playable decks like TPS-Dragonstorm to became serious alternatives, but I fear it needs more than just Will to accomplish that.

Quote from: LasH on 06-02-2011, 02:59:27 PM

Quote
Why do we not want combo decks to go to tier 1? Why shouldn't all 3 archetypes be viable? Why is it only that aggro and control should be allowed to do that?

Because we want interaction. I suggest you read some topic's from "highlander founder" frank topel aka sturmgott about this discussion.

So we don't want combo decks to be equally viable when compared with control and aggro?

QuoteWhat about the dreamhalls combo?

Sorry, but Dreamhalls combo? Which dreamhalls-"combos" are out there? DH+Conflux/Prog/Cruel Ultimatum (see T1.5)? So is Show and Tell+Emrakul also a "combo"? Its very clear that YW+DH does nothing on its own, u need a bunch of other good cards to "go off". And one last question about DH: How many decks play DH atm? Im really interested.

QuoteYW will boost any combo deck alot

No.

Quoteeven dragonstorm highlander will use it - a rare decktyp but i know it was played 2 grand prix ago

Dont think I really have to comment this any further.

QuoteNot only TPs will profit, all storm combo decks will from an unban.

How many Storm-Combo decks are out there right now? Zero?

QuoteI agree that it won't boost the decks played alot atm,

Aha.

Quotebut if you unban a card you should always watch more than the current meta. A thing u cant do well.

So according to this reasoning, how can you ever unban a card? Hm?

QuoteAnd everybody will agree, that this is a boost for every combo deck

No, again.

Quoteand we dont want combo decks to go to tier1.

Aha, so with YW unbanning Combo will be tier 1 (Dragonstorm maybe?), interesting.

Quote from: God_of_War on 06-02-2011, 05:29:52 PM

QuoteWhat about the dreamhalls combo?

Sorry, but Dreamhalls combo? Which dreamhalls-"combos" are out there? DH+Conflux/Prog/Cruel Ultimatum (see T1.5)? So is Show and Tell+Emrakul also a "combo"? Its very clear that YW+DH does nothing on its own, u need a bunch of other good cards to "go off". And one last question about DH: How many decks play DH atm? Im really interested.

QuoteYW will boost any combo deck alot

No.

Quoteeven dragonstorm highlander will use it - a rare decktyp but i know it was played 2 grand prix ago

Dont think I really have to comment this any further.

QuoteNot only TPs will profit, all storm combo decks will from an unban.

How many Storm-Combo decks are out there right now? Zero?

QuoteI agree that it won't boost the decks played alot atm,

Aha.

Quotebut if you unban a card you should always watch more than the current meta. A thing u cant do well.

So according to this reasoning, how can you ever unban a card? Hm?

QuoteAnd everybody will agree, that this is a boost for every combo deck

No, again.

Quoteand we dont want combo decks to go to tier1.

Aha, so with YW unbanning Combo will be tier 1 (Dragonstorm maybe?), interesting.

Very constructive god of war. If u can't discuss in a proper way dont talk to me.

If all think yw needs an unban go for it. Not the first time ppl need to remember what makes a format frustrating. (Hi Library)

and @ nastboi: I play for about 15 years now and i read the discussions about a highlander format from the very first time. If i say "we" i only the speak for ppl who want interaction in the format. And i know that the majority decided once to not make combo tier1. Council changed, so did principles?

And im done now, i stated my opinion and i feel like its just a discussion about me vs the rest. So i close my statements with

Quote from: Sturmgott on 01-02-2011, 12:43:09 PM

Don't open that box of Pandora again!

:) hf all ;)

LasH, please comment

Quote from: Kristian on 06-02-2011, 03:34:33 PM

Quote from: LasH on 06-02-2011, 02:59:27 PM

Quote
Why do we not want combo decks to go to tier 1? Why shouldn't all 3 archetypes be viable? Why is it only that aggro and control should be allowed to do that?

Because we want interaction. I suggest you read some topic's from "highlander founder" frank topel aka sturmgott about this discussion.

So we don't want combo decks to be equally viable when compared with control and aggro?

Combo shouldn't be tier 1, because people who don't know how to play against it, think they cannot interact with it.

Quote from: Tiggupiru on 06-02-2011, 10:05:56 PM
Combo shouldn't be tier 1, because people who don't know how to play against it, think they cannot interact with it.

I thought Highlander is supposed to be a competitive format, if it´s not we can all play Commander with Gentlemen agreements, 30 life and all that bull...

Quote from: Maggot on 07-02-2011, 04:33:39 AM

Quote from: Tiggupiru on 06-02-2011, 10:05:56 PM
Combo shouldn't be tier 1, because people who don't know how to play against it, think they cannot interact with it.

I thought Highlander is supposed to be a competitive format, if it´s not we can all play Commander with Gentlemen agreements, 30 life and all that bull...

I think he's being sarcastic.

Combo and Control can NOT coexist as tier 1 in HL!

The years and all experience have clearly shown that rock-paper-scissors a.k.a. control-combo-aggro does NOT work in HL - simply because there's a) no sideboard in HL, b) too many different combo approaches out there (Aluren, Dreamhalls, Hulk-Flash, Angry Ghoul, Dragonstorm/TPS, Painter/Servant, Heartbeat, etc...). If all these were tier 1, or even close to tier 1, control decks CANNOT cover them all. How many cards do you want to play to battle all these approaches? And if you do, either your control matchup will be horrible or you'll simply lose against any aggressive deck. This is easy to understand!

2nd reason why tier 1 combo decks ruin the format: They disallow completely for non-blue-based midrange decks like MBC, or Rock-style decks. Both of which in my opinion allow for very much interaction and fun.

I understand your point Sturmgott, but I do not see Yawgwill elevating TPS to Tier 1. I just don't see it. Please enlighten me why this once card would make TPS so good with the current banlist + cardpool.

Quote from: Sturmgott on 08-02-2011, 02:03:22 AM
Combo and Control can NOT coexist as tier 1 in HL!

The years and all experience have clearly shown that rock-paper-scissors a.k.a. control-combo-aggro does NOT work in HL - simply because there's a) no sideboard in HL, b) too many different combo approaches out there (Aluren, Dreamhalls, Hulk-Flash, Angry Ghoul, Dragonstorm/TPS, Painter/Servant, Heartbeat, etc...). If all these were tier 1, or even close to tier 1, control decks CANNOT cover them all. How many cards do you want to play to battle all these approaches? And if you do, either your control matchup will be horrible or you'll simply lose against any aggressive deck. This is easy to understand!

2nd reason why tier 1 combo decks ruin the format: They disallow completely for non-blue-based midrange decks like MBC, or Rock-style decks. Both of which in my opinion allow for very much interaction and fun.

Combo will never be tier1 in the format just because of the very inconsistent nature of the format. If there are critical mass of good tutors and cheap manipulation, then maybe, but right now we're not even close.

Targeted discard and counterspells work wonders against any form of combo deck. I play 12-15 counters in all my blue-based decks, and fear no combo nor aggro (as I have about 50 spell slots left after those counters, and cheap conterspells magically work against aggro, too). Most combo decks can't handle at all combination of one counterspell + opposing creature.

About Rock decks being not viable: Rock is not viable in Extended and Legacy, not even to talk about Vintage. It has sometimes been playable in those formats, but never that strong. I really can't support banning decisions based on artifically keeping alive a dead deck. Time Sieve was once a deck in standard, but I won't claim bannings/unbannings to make that pet deck viable in highlander.

Highlander is an eternal format, where you are supposed to play the very best cards. The thing is, they just happen to be blue. You can blame Wizards if you want to, but what else are we going to do about it? Ban blue as a colour?

If you fear combo that much, why don't just ban Gifts and call it a day? Control decks have no problem replacing it with just another bomb, but there are no replacement to Gifts in combo decks.

As the thread's name is "Comparison Highlander & Singleton", look at the Banned List in Singleton and ask yourself, why there is no combo online. And no, it's not because of price issues - many of the really good players, that play 100CS have all cards available.

I can understand everyone who claims, that there are some cards, that aren't available online but irl. But someone has to show me, how those few cards would change that much in the format.

As i'm playing a lot of 100CS at the moment, i really ask myself, why there has to be a different Banned List at all, other than the difference in sideboarding. But maybe we should really discuss this topic a lot more instead of discussing about single cards all night long...

Quote from: SirGalahad on 09-02-2011, 12:25:02 AM
As the thread's name is "Comparison Highlander & Singleton", look at the Banned List in Singleton and ask yourself, why there is no combo online. And no, it's not because of price issues - many of the really good players, that play 100CS have all cards available.

I can understand everyone who claims, that there are some cards, that aren't available online but irl. But someone has to show me, how those few cards would change that much in the format.

As i'm playing a lot of 100CS at the moment, i really ask myself, why there has to be a different Banned List at all, other than the difference in sideboarding. But maybe we should really discuss this topic a lot more instead of discussing about single cards all night long...

I believe that there is no combo online because of their bannings: Regrow, Intuition, Gifts Ungiven, Demonic Tutor are banned.
Four cards that are staples in 90% of the RL-Combo-Decks, these cards are more valuable for Combo than the irl banned cards MT, ET, Buried Alive and Entomb, because they add consistency to those decks.
Imo the irl banned list is better due to consistency and speed reasons. There is a huge difference between a possible eot 1 tutor for combo part or a eot 3-4 tutor for combo part with recursion effects.
It´s a very differnt aproach on how to keep the format in balance, and I believe the counsil does a very good job.
There are competitive combo decks out there but they don´t get out of hand in terms of speed, control decks have enough tools to be playable against both combo and aggro, well aggro decks don´t get smothered by a shitload of fast combos. Seems fair to me.

Look at the list of decks I consider Tier 1:

Aggro:
Naya-Zoo
RDW (with or without Gobbos)
BR Gobbos
Elves (Mono G or Multi CC)
5C Aggro

Control:
UW Control
Esper Control
UB Control
Counter Burn
Staxx (in many variations)
Mono U Prison
UG Aggro Control

Combo:
Pattern Rector
Heartbeat
Dream Halls
Reanimator


I believe this shows how healthy and alive the irl meta is. But I also believe that there have to be some minor adjustments to be made. But that´s a different matter.

Visit my Blog!
http://highlanderplayer.blogsport.de/ (http://highlanderplayer.blogsport.de/)

Cheers

Maggot

Even tough I don't think this matters a whole lot, I would like to point the fact that combo is also a hell to play in MODO. I just gave my friend the Pattern-Rector decklist and we noticed it will take about 20 clicks to complete each cycle of the combo. Misclick even once and the combo falls apart.

This means that it's really taxing to play and click through it, even if you are familiar with the deck. Also this might make you want to add Kokusho or some other card you really don't want to play, just for the sake of finishing on time. Making your deck little bit weaker is something many "click-a-lot" combos in the Magic Online have opted to do, just to save time and minimize the possibility of an human error.

Gifts, Intuition and Entomb being banned surely makes things more difficult for digital Johnnys, but the atrocious process of clicking makes combo decks less attractive. The results are not 100% comparable because of this.

Another reason no one mentioned yet is the spoils mulligan:
The spoils mulligan favours combo big time and here is why:

First of all, let's take a look at Aggro, for example 3C-Naya (posted on the blog):
CC1: Elite Vanguard,Isamaru, Savannah Lions, Loam Lion, Goblin Guide,Kird Ape,Jungle Lion, Wild Nacatal,Shyshroud Elite
All these creatures are very similar (yes there are some exceptions, Mother of Runes/Grim), making the deck very redundant. Now I wont go through all the other slots, but the point should be clear: cards like tarmogoyf,Watchwolf or Anurid Brushoper are not that different (yes that Tarmo might be 4/5, but they all have one thing in common: good stats and hence they are made for attacking). 
Conclusion: Aggro decks are (and that's the obvious intention) redundant. Therefore the variance of the power level is rather low. And because of that fact, aggro decks gain a rather low advantage from the spoils mulligan.

Now let's analyse combo:
These decks need some "key" cards. For example GWB Pattern-Rector:
There are (just a rough overview):
a)sac outlets
b)utility creatures/spells
c)pieces that get Hulk into play
d)discard
e)tutors
All these cards have very different purposes and interact in a very different way with the game. Hence the variance of the power level is much greater (compared to aggro). Being able to spoil unnecessary pieces away, keeping only the best cards, favours these decks much more than aggro.

That is imo another huge factor to consider (asides from the different banned list, combo being hard to play online and having access to a Sb).

Actually, I think it's the other way around. Aggro will benefit immensely from the spoils, as it allows them to run higher threat count (less lands), find those critical Winter Orbs and most importantly, they can manipulate their curve. For example, one, two and a three-drops, with the appropriate lands as opposed to something like two two-drops, a three-drop and sketchy lands). This gives combo something like two turns less to work with, while it usually fixes only rather marginally with the spoils (greatly depending the deck, ofc). Combo has huge amount of library manipulation in form of Ponders, Prordains and such, but that really isn't giving them as much edge as it does in other formats, because the mulligan ensures you both have better starting grip than you otherwise "should".

Quote from: God_of_War on 09-02-2011, 11:28:25 PM
Another reason no one mentioned yet is the spoils mulligan:
The spoils mulligan favours combo big time and here is why:

First of all, let's take a look at Aggro, for example 3C-Naya (posted on the blog):
CC1: Elite Vanguard,Isamaru, Savannah Lions, Loam Lion, Goblin Guide,Kird Ape,Jungle Lion, Wild Nacatal,Shyshroud Elite
All these creatures are very similar (yes there are some exceptions, Mother of Runes/Grim), making the deck very redundant. Now I wont go through all the other slots, but the point should be clear: cards like tarmogoyf,Watchwolf or Anurid Brushoper are not that different (yes that Tarmo might be 4/5, but they all have one thing in common: good stats and hence they are made for attacking). 
Conclusion: Aggro decks are (and that's the obvious intention) redundant. Therefore the variance of the power level is rather low. And because of that fact, aggro decks gain a rather low advantage from the spoils mulligan.

Now let's analyse combo:
These decks need some "key" cards. For example GWB Pattern-Rector:
There are (just a rough overview):
a)sac outlets
b)utility creatures/spells
c)pieces that get Hulk into play
d)discard
e)tutors
All these cards have very different purposes and interact in a very different way with the game. Hence the variance of the power level is much greater (compared to aggro). Being able to spoil unnecessary pieces away, keeping only the best cards, favours these decks much more than aggro.

That is imo another huge factor to consider (asides from the different banned list, combo being hard to play online and having access to a Sb).

I don't really get this "redundance" of which you are talking about by trying not be a smartass. Either it is me who does not know the true meaning of "redundant" (=needless) or you want to say sth different. First of all it is not redundant whether aggro got a spoils mulligan or not in respect of the one-drops they play. Just like Tiggupiru said, they can build their curves way more risky with access to spoiling bad cards away. The second thing is - people often forget about - heavy/straight aggro like RDW, mono Green, Goblins and even Naya can kill as fast as combo at goldfishing (turn 3-5). Now the aggro mage got just 1 card which is able to interrupt the combo player or just delays him for one or two more turns; the result: aggro won. There is not much combo can do against aggro the same way aggro can do against combo. Lets pick Dreamhalls as an example: you need a good tutor which finds you Dreamhalls within the first 3/4 turns, you need enough Mana to cast Dreamhalls asap and you need at least one GOOD business spell and a card of same color. Now every card you play which should stop/delay aggro will give you the same delay. If you cast Molten Rain turn 3 on one of the combo players good lands, he takes 2 dmg and got slowed down at least by one turn. So finding options to slow down combo is way more easy for aggro than for combo. If you already got a good tutor + enough mana you can spoil away "useless" cards but you won't find the right cards as easy as your opponent.

I know this is not true for all combo decks and yes, you can play removal and stuff but I want to say that aggro benefits from the spoils mulligan maybe even more than combo. You can imagine the same for a MU vs Staxx: aggro just needs to find the good removal (r/rg/rgw -> artifact/chantment/any removal) and got the odds (maybe because of what you said and called redundant (because it does not matter which 2 drop you find?!)). Staxx however needs more than just 1 out to get the same advantage (you won't win with Propaganda alone neither with Armageddon).

Maybe those aren't the best examples but I am quite angry that people always think combo is overpowered and does not need a boost. When aggro kills control in turn 4 its nothing wrong bc control just did not find the right answers fast enough. But if combo kills control turn 4 people will think "WTF IM DEAD WITHOUT INTERACTION". Ofc not all people think so but I bet most of them cry only because it is "combo" they lost against.

I think we should aim to get as much cards as possible out of the Banlist by KEEPING Highlander a good/fair format, with no 100% domination of a single archtype. Combo should be viable as much as aggro and control and if some people don't want to play against combo they can stay at their casual group and play with their own rules. If you look at legacy you will see that there are ofc decks which are more played than others. But you have lots of different decks you CAN play (without just hunting for the deck to beat) even if they are worse than other decks (yy I forgot about Sideboard..). And I can't remember who said that decktypes like MBC are fun and should not disappear out of the metagame.. MBC is quite good against combo but nobody can expect that MBC is as strong as UW control for example (just picking random decktypes just now.. hard to compare those two decks.). Every deck has it strenghts and weaknesses and some deck got more of them than other decks.. that does not mean, that those decks are not played. People will always play their Petdecks - but should not expect to win competative tournaments like NP.. I'm quite tired maybe this post took a hit by the hammer of inconsistence =)

i think that he had the german meaning of "redundant" in mind. which is, as he explained with his examples, that something occurs over and over again. that something of the same kind(here: the beaters with cc1 and cc2 )is there very often.

 english  redundance =  german   Redunanz

I think the Word was used correctly.

First of all, I think you should look up the word "redundant":
redundant {adj}
    unnötig
    arbeitslos
    freiwerdend
    überzählig
    überflüssig
    überreichlich
    nicht benötigt
    nicht gebraucht
    beschäftigungslos
    zusätzlich vorhanden
    im Überfluss vorhanden
    redundant [zusätzlich vorhanden]
Or see Wikipedia: "Redundanz (lat. redundare ,,überlaufen", ,,im Überfluss vorhanden sein") bezeichnet allgemein einen Zustand von Überschneidung oder Überfluss."
That is all german, but you can look up the meaning in your language too (Wikipedia or any online dictionary are your friends), that shouldnt be to difficult, honestly. You know, some words have more than one meaning....

QuoteFirst of all it is not redundant whether aggro got a spoils mulligan or not in respect of the one-drops they play.

Sorry, but not the spoils mulligan is redundant, the deck (Naya) is.
The next thing is, their curve is not risky at all. These decks tend to run a lot of CC1-3 creatures, usually curving out at 4 mana, there's not much risk at all involved.
You mention Dreamhalls as an example, that is hardly a deck. I wont go into details any more but I think you didnt understand my point:

QuoteMaybe those aren't the best examples but I am quite angry that people always think combo is overpowered and does not need a boost.

Actually, I dont think combo is overpowered by any means. I just tried to answer the question why there is a lot less combo in 100 card Singelton. And one reason (among others) is imo the spoils mulligan.

QuoteI think we should aim to get as much cards as possible out of the Banlist by KEEPING Highlander a good/fair format, with no 100% domination of a single archtype. Combo should be viable as much as aggro and control and if some people don't want to play against combo they can stay at their casual group and play with their own rules.

100% agreed.

Now I have one last (serious) question: Did any one test the impact of the spoils mulligan? For example 50 games Naya vs High Tide with spoils mulligan and 50 without? How do the winning percentages change? I would be really interested.

Quote from: God_of_War on 10-02-2011, 07:08:54 PM
First of all, I think you should look up the word "redundant":
redundant {adj}
    unnötig
    arbeitslos
    freiwerdend
    überzählig
    überflüssig
    überreichlich
    nicht benötigt
    nicht gebraucht
    beschäftigungslos
    zusätzlich vorhanden
    im Überfluss vorhanden

Okay thanks, I think I know what you mean. But I still don't get why Naya or those low-cost-creatures are redundant? Is it because they are played so often or because creatures/decktypes are easy to replace?

And I just said things in general not specific to you and had no intention of blaming you. I am just tired of this neverending discussion because _some_ people think the way I wrote.

But more important is the thing you mentioned about spoils mulligan benefits combo more than aggro to which I do not agree. It would be interesting to know whether there are actual examples of this thesis. And maybe I am wrong and Combo benefits more from spoils mulligan than the way around. Although it is not always easy to get an answer though empiric testing because not all people know how to spoil right etc.

my initial post caused quite a stir ??? ... never thought of that  ;D

Quote from: SirGalahad on 09-02-2011, 12:25:02 AM
As i'm playing a lot of 100CS at the moment, i really ask myself, why there has to be a different Banned List at all, other than the difference in sideboarding.

we have different cards pools available so we need different banned lists obv.
btw. at the latest since i play singleton i don't like the idea of having a sideboard in HL...Karma, Anarchy, Absolute Law...there are just that many random gamebreakers available after boarding

Quote from: Tiggupiru on 09-02-2011, 12:49:37 PM
Even tough I don't think this matters a whole lot, I would like to point the fact that combo is also a hell to play in MODO. I just gave my friend the Pattern-Rector decklist and we noticed it will take about 20 clicks to complete each cycle of the combo. Misclick even once and the combo falls apart.
...
Gifts, Intuition and Entomb being banned surely makes things more difficult for digital Johnnys, but the atrocious process of clicking makes combo decks less attractive. The results are not 100% comparable because of this.

100% agree about that - one reason why there are not many combos beside painter's stone and natural progenitus in singleton

Quote from: God_of_War on 09-02-2011, 11:28:25 PM
Another reason no one mentioned yet is the spoils mulligan:
The spoils mulligan favours combo big time and here is why:

It doesn't matter which archetype the spoils mulligan favours more, spoils mulligan is just that much superior to the "singleton mulligan". In Singleton that many games are already decided just before the first card has been played. Beeing screwed, flooded are omnipresent and that isn't the most funny part of magic  :(

Quote from: God_of_War on 10-02-2011, 07:08:54 PMNow I have one last (serious) question: Did any one test the impact of the spoils mulligan? For example 50 games Naya vs High Tide with spoils mulligan and 50 without? How do the winning percentages change? I would be really interested.

I haven't tested or ran the numbers, nor I think it's feasible as the decks have been made specifically with the mulligan in mind. Those decks however, are a great example for me to explain my point: Naya will be able to fix their curve quite a bit because of the mulligan. This not only gives combo less time to execute their own plan, but it also makes their anti-aggro cards worse. Repulse loses value significantly if Naya is able to maximize their mana every turn. Instead of playing a creature during first three turns, they play a two-drop and a three-drop, in where Repulse is a strong card as it bounces their Knight of Reliquary and leaves them with random 2/2. Man-o'-war is also a really good here as it can even Iime Walk the next Naya turn completely. This is not something that usually happens when aggro can mulligan as one cheap burn and perfect curve ensures that their fast start isn't really slowed by random AEther Adept.

If we would give up the spoils mulligan, which I don't suggest nor want in million years, Naya would have to increase their land count and be "fair" with their mana. All the while High Tide would just add 2-3 lands and overload on cheap library manipulation. This would make Naya way worse, but it would not have a considerable impact on the High Tide's general performance.

Quote from: Vazdru on 10-02-2011, 11:04:27 PMIt doesn't matter which archetype the spoils mulligan favours more, spoils mulligan is just that much superior to the "singleton mulligan". In Singleton that many games are already decided just before the first card has been played. Beeing screwed, flooded are omnipresent and that isn't the most funny part of magic  :(

I don't think anyone was arguing about removing spoils or anything. IMO, it favors aggro the most, and I rarely want to play aggro, but I wouldn't still trade the spoils for the world. Makes nearly every game more interesting. I just don't want it to be used as an argument against combo, because of the reasons mentioned before.

1. My point was, that if the right cards are banned, the potential for combo would be better kept in check.

2. How many cards, that are not available online, are being played? Especially cards, that matter in creating new decks/combos that have to be kept in check.

3. I agree that the biggest "problem" is the spoils mulligan, as it rewards "bad" deckbuilding. But this is a whole other topic.

4. @maggot: you can't be serious about that list. Those 16 decks might be playable, even i already doubt that, but tier 1 means number 1 ranked decks.

5. Sure, combo is not nice to play online, but if there was to be a dominant combo deck, it would be played. Look at legacy with tps.

6. To make my point clear: Maybe, the wrong cards are banned irl and banning other cards would widen the format with viable combo-decks. I know, the counsil did and does a lot of testing, to keep the format healthy, but in my opinion, the banned list is filled with a lot of cards that wouldn't be an issue. Especially if the most powerful cards in the format were banned. Survival and Library were a good start. ;)

Quote from: SirGalahad on 10-02-2011, 11:55:18 PM
4. @maggot: you can't be serious about that list. Those 16 decks might be playable, even i already doubt that, but tier 1 means number 1 ranked decks.

Actually I´m serious about this list, all of these decks are capable of taking home a tournament victory, when constructed and played well. I think it´s difficult to find true Tier 1 decks, due to the followings reasons:

-regional differences in the meta
-small player base compared to other formats
-missing networking of regional player bases
-not enough large tounaments to show the true capability of decks
-random character or inconsistant nature of the format

It´s not like we are discussing a normal constructed format, where nedecking and pro-player evalution tells you what to play, how to play and how to sideboard.
I don´t know when you consider a deck playable, 80% win percentage? 75%? 60%? 55%?
I´d like to see a list of your tier 1 decks...

Regards

Maggot

Quote from: Tiggupiru on 09-02-2011, 11:51:09 PM
Actually, I think it's the other way around. Aggro will benefit immensely from the spoils, as it allows them to run higher threat count (less lands), find those critical Winter Orbs and most importantly, they can manipulate their curve. For example, one, two and a three-drops, with the appropriate lands as opposed to something like two two-drops, a three-drop and sketchy lands). This gives combo something like two turns less to work with, while it usually fixes only rather marginally with the spoils (greatly depending the deck, ofc). Combo has huge amount of library manipulation in form of Ponders, Prordains and such, but that really isn't giving them as much edge as it does in other formats, because the mulligan ensures you both have better starting grip than you otherwise "should".

i agree with this. Spoils mull benefits low mana curve decks. Not only this buts it helps worse builds, since your initial hand isn't based anymore more on purely luck + deckbuilding skills.

We will always have flood/screw situations, no matter what mull rule we choose.

updated

      


      

HIGHLANDER	SINGLETON
Balance	Balance
NO	Crucible of Worlds
NO	Demonic Tutor
Buried Alive	NO
Dread Return	NO
Enlightened Tutor	NO
Entomb	NO
Fastbond	Fastbond
Flash	Flash
Grindstone	NO
NO	Gifts Ungiven
Imperial Seal	Imperial Seal
NO	Intuition
Life from the Loam	Life from the Loam
Library of Alexandria	Library of Alexandria
Lion's Eye Diamond	Lions Eye Diamond
Mana Crypt	Mana Crypt
Mana Vault	Mana Vault
Mind Twist	Mind Twist
NO	Regrowth
Mystical Tutor	NO
Skullclamp	Skullclamp
NO	Senseis Divining Top
Sol Ring	Sol Ring
Strip Mine	Strip Mine
Survival of the Fittest	Survival of the Fittest
Time Vault	Time Vault
Tinker	Tinker
Tolarian Academy	Tolarian Academy
Trinisphere	NO
Umezawa's Jitte	Umezawas Jitte
Vampiric Tutor	Vampiric Tutor
Wheel of Fortune	Wheel of Fortune
Yawgmoth's Will	NO

updated

      


      

HIGHLANDER	SINGLETON
Balance	Balance
NO	Crucible of Worlds
NO	Demonic Tutor
Dread Return	NO
Enlightened Tutor	NO
Entomb	NO
Fastbond	Fastbond
Flash	Flash
Grindstone	NO
Gifts Ungiven	Gifts Ungiven
Imperial Seal	Imperial Seal
NO	Intuition
Life from the Loam	Life from the Loam
Library of Alexandria	Library of Alexandria
Lion's Eye Diamond	Lions Eye Diamond
Mana Crypt	Mana Crypt
Mana Vault	Mana Vault
Mind Twist	Mind Twist
NO	Regrowth
Mystical Tutor	NO
Skullclamp	Skullclamp
NO	Senseis Divining Top
Sol Ring	Sol Ring
Strip Mine	Strip Mine
Survival of the Fittest	Survival of the Fittest
Time Vault	Time Vault
Tinker	Tinker
Tolarian Academy	Tolarian Academy
Umezawa's Jitte	Umezawas Jitte
Vampiric Tutor	Vampiric Tutor
NO	Wheel of Fortune
Yawgmoth's Will	NO

Along block changes, Singleton received some changes to banned list as well: http://community.wizards.com/magiconline/blog/2012/03/19/magic_online_br_announcement

THAT is a interesting decision. They banned SFM.

interesting and also wrong.

This could be a good time to bring this discussion back to the drawing board:

Quote from: Tabris on 22-03-2012, 02:06:08 AM
THAT is a interesting decision. They banned SFM.

Quote from: tonytahiti on 22-03-2012, 07:15:33 AM
interesting and also wrong.

While I agree that SFM is probably not a card that needs to be banned power wise, but there has been several players that have actively complained about it and since the players of HL have been decreasing in numbers (when it comes to Finland anyways), there could be some connection here. I am fine if SFM gets banned, I don't love the card and even if this would end up not being an optimal ban, I more than happy to trade SFM for more players and more fun environment. I would be interested to hear your opinions about the matter. After all, if you want to affect to the future of our format, speak up.

updated (although Singleton isn't "alive" anymore)

      

HIGHLANDER	SINGLETON
Balance	Balance
Birthing Pod	NO
NO	Crucible of Worlds
NO	Demonic Tutor
Entomb	NO
Fastbond	Fastbond
Flash	Flash
Grindstone	NO
Gifts Ungiven	Gifts Ungiven
Imperial Seal	Imperial Seal
NO	Intuition
NO	Life from the Loam
Library of Alexandria	Library of Alexandria
NO	Lions Eye Diamond
Mana Crypt	Mana Crypt
Mana Vault	Mana Vault
Mind Twist	Mind Twist
Mystical Tutor	NO
Skullclamp	Skullclamp
NO	Senseis Divining Top
Sol Ring	Sol Ring
Strip Mine	Strip Mine
Survival of the Fittest	Survival of the Fittest
Stoneforge Mystic	Stoneforge Mystic
Time Vault	Time Vault
Tinker	Tinker
Tolarian Academy	Tolarian Academy
Umezawa's Jitte	Umezawas Jitte
Vampiric Tutor	Vampiric Tutor
NO	Wheel of Fortune

updated (although Singleton isn't "alive" anymore)

      

HIGHLANDER	SINGLETON
Balance	Balance
Birthing Pod	NO
NO	Crucible of Worlds
NO	Demonic Tutor
Entomb	NO
Fastbond	Fastbond
Flash	Flash
Grindstone	NO
Gifts Ungiven	Gifts Ungiven
Imperial Seal	Imperial Seal
NO	Intuition
NO	Life from the Loam
Library of Alexandria	Library of Alexandria
NO	Lions Eye Diamond
Mana Crypt	Mana Crypt
Mana Vault	Mana Vault
Mind Twist	Mind Twist
Natural Order	NO
Skullclamp	Skullclamp
NO	Senseis Divining Top
Sol Ring	Sol Ring
Strip Mine	Strip Mine
Survival of the Fittest	Survival of the Fittest
Stoneforge Mystic	Stoneforge Mystic
Time Vault	Time Vault
Tinker	Tinker
NO	Tolarian Academy
Umezawa's Jitte	Umezawas Jitte
Vampiric Tutor	Vampiric Tutor
NO	Wheel of Fortune

just a summary without any deeper meaning


   

Singleton (inactive)	Tiny Leaders	Duel Commander	Highlander
was unavailable	Ancestral Recall	Ancestral Recall	Ancestral Recall	4/4
		Ancient Tomb		1/4
Balance	Balance	Balance	Balance	4/4
		Back to Basics		1/4
	is unavailable		Birthing Pod	2/4
was unavailable	Black Lotus	Black Lotus	Black Lotus	4/4
	Black Vise			1/4
	is unavailable	Cataclysm		2/4
	Channel	Channel		2/4
	Counterbalance			1/4
Crucible of Worlds				1/4
Demonic Tutor	Demonic Tutor			2/4
		Entomb	Entomb	2/4
	Earthcraft			1/4
	Edric, Spymaster of Trest			1/4
Fastbond	Fastbond	Fastbond	no entry	3/4
Flash	not necessary	not necessary (Hulk banned)	Flash	4/4
		Food Chain		1/4
Gifts Ungiven	is unavailable	Gifts Ungiven	Gifts Ungiven	4/4
	Goblin Recruiter			1/4
		Grim Monolith		1/4
		Grindstone	Grindstone	2/4
	Hermit Druid	Hermit Druid		2/4
	is unavailable	Humility		2/4
Imperial Seal	Imperial Seal	Imperial Seal	Imperial Seal	4/4
Intuition				1/4
		Karakas		1/4
Library of Alexandria	Library of Alexandria	Library of Alexandria	Library of Alexandria	4/4
Life from the Loam				1/4
Lion's Eye Diamond				1/4
		Loyal Retainers		1/4
	Karakas			1/4
Mana Crypt	Mana Crypt	Mana Crypt	Mana Crypt	4/4
was unavailable	Mana Drain	Mana Drain	no entry	3/4
Mana Vault	Mana Vault	Mana Vault	Mana Vault	4/4
	Metalworker			1/4
Mind Twist	Mind Twist	Mind Twist	Mind Twist	4/4
was unavailable	Mishra's Workshop	Mishra's Workshop	no entry	3/4
was unavailable	Moxes (Power 9)	Moxes (Power 9)	Moxes (Power 9)	4/4
	is unavailable	Natural Order	Natural Order	3/4
	Necropotence	Necropotence		2/4
		Oath of Druids		1/4
	Painter's Servant			1/4
	is unavailable	Protean Hulk		2/4
Sensei's Divining Top				1/4
		Serra Ascendant		1/4
was unavailable	Shahrazad	Shahrazad	Shahrazad	4/4
Skullclamp	Skullclamp		Skullclamp	3/4
Sol Ring	Sol Ring	Sol Ring	Sol Ring	4/4
Stoneforge Mystic			Stoneforge Mystic	2/4
Strip Mine	Strip Mine	Strip Mine	Strip Mine	4/4
Survival of the Fittest	Survival of the Fittest		Survival of the Fittest	3/4
	Sword of Body and Mind			1/4
		The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale		1/4
Time Vault	Time Vault	Time Vault	Time Vault	4/4
was unavailable	Time Walk	Time Walk	Time Walk	4/4
was unavailable	Timetwister			2/4
Tinker	not necessary	Tinker	Tinker	4/4
Tolarian Academy	Tolarian Academy	Tolarian Academy	no entry	3/4
Umezawa's Jitte	Umezawa's Jitte		Umezawa's Jitte	3/4
Vampiric Tutor	Vampiric Tutor	Vampiric Tutor	Vampiric Tutor	4/4
Wheel of Fortune	Wheel of Fortune			2/4
	is unavailable	Yawgmoth's Bargain		2/4
	Yawgmoth's Will			1/4

Singleton (inactive)	Tiny Leaders	Duel Commander	Highlander		Canadian Highlander
was unavailable	Ancestral Recall	Ancestral Recall	Ancestral Recall	4/4	5
		Ancient Tomb		1/4
Balance	Balance	Balance	Balance	4/4	1
		Back to Basics		1/4
	is unavailable		Birthing Pod	2/4	3
was unavailable	Black Lotus	Black Lotus	Black Lotus	4/4	6
	Black Vise			1/4
	is unavailable			2/4
	Channel	Channel		2/4
	Counterbalance			1/4
Crucible of Worlds				1/4
Demonic Tutor	Demonic Tutor			2/4	4
				-	Doomsday 3
				-	Enlightened Tutor 2
		Entomb	Entomb	2/4
	Earthcraft			1/4
	Edric, Spymaster of Trest			1/4
				-	Fabricate 1
Fastbond	Fastbond	Fastbond	no entry	3/4	1
Flash	not necessary	not necessary (Hulk banned)	Flash	4/4	6
		Food Chain		1/4
Gifts Ungiven	is unavailable	Gifts Ungiven	Gifts Ungiven	4/4	1
	Goblin Recruiter			1/4
		Grim Monolith		1/4
	Grindstone	Grindstone	Grindstone	3/4
	Hermit Druid	Hermit Druid		2/4	5
	is unavailable	Humility		2/4
Imperial Seal	Imperial Seal	Imperial Seal	Imperial Seal	4/4	2
Intuition				1/4	1
		Karakas		1/4
Library of Alexandria	Library of Alexandria	Library of Alexandria	Library of Alexandria	4/4	1
Life from the Loam				1/4
				-	Lim-Dul's Vault 1
Lion's Eye Diamond				1/4
		Loyal Retainers		1/4
	Karakas			1/4
Mana Crypt	Mana Crypt	Mana Crypt	Mana Crypt	4/4	2
was unavailable	Mana Drain	Mana Drain	no entry	3/4
Mana Vault	Mana Vault	Mana Vault	Mana Vault	4/4	1
				-	Merchant Scroll 1
	Metalworker			1/4
Mind Twist	Mind Twist	Mind Twist	Mind Twist	4/4	1
was unavailable	Mishra's Workshop	Mishra's Workshop	no entry	3/4
was unavailable	Moxes (Power 9)	Moxes (Power 9)	Moxes (Power 9)	4/4	3
		Mystical Tutor		1/4	2
	is unavailable	Natural Order		2/4	5
	Necropotence	Necropotence		2/4
		Oath of Druids		1/4	1
				-	Personal Tutor 1
	is unavailable	Protean Hulk		2/4	4
Sensei's Divining Top		Sensei's Divining Top		2/4
		Serra Ascendant		1/4
was unavailable	Shahrazad	Shahrazad	Shahrazad	4/4
Skullclamp	Skullclamp		Skullclamp	3/4	1
Sol Ring	Sol Ring	Sol Ring	Sol Ring	4/4	4
Stoneforge Mystic			Stoneforge Mystic	2/4	1
Strip Mine	Strip Mine	Strip Mine	Strip Mine	4/4	3
				-	Summoner's Pact 1
Survival of the Fittest	Survival of the Fittest		Survival of the Fittest	3/4	3
	Sword of Body and Mind			1/4
				-	Tainted Pact 1
		The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale		1/4
Time Vault	Time Vault	Time Vault	Time Vault	4/4	7
was unavailable	Time Walk	Time Walk	Time Walk	4/4	4
was unavailable	Timetwister			2/4
Tinker	not necessary	Tinker	Tinker	4/4	5
Tolarian Academy	Tolarian Academy	Tolarian Academy	no entry	3/4	1
				-	Transmute Artifact 2
				-	Treasure Cruise 1
				-	True-Name Nemesis 1
Umezawa's Jitte	Umezawa's Jitte		Umezawa's Jitte	3/4	1
Vampiric Tutor	Vampiric Tutor	Vampiric Tutor	Vampiric Tutor	4/4	3
Wheel of Fortune	Wheel of Fortune			2/4
	is unavailable	Yawgmoth's Bargain		2/4
	Yawgmoth's Will			1/4

                                    
                                    

Singleton (inactive)	Tiny Leaders	Duel Commander	Highlander		Canadian Highlander
was unavailable	Ancestral Recall	Ancestral Recall	Ancestral Recall	4/4	5
		Ancient Tomb		1/4
Balance	Balance		Balance	3/4	1
		Back to Basics		1/4
	is unavailable		Birthing Pod	2/4	3
was unavailable	Black Lotus	Black Lotus	Black Lotus	4/4	7
	Black Vise			1/4
	Channel	Channel		2/4
	Counterbalance			1/4
Crucible of Worlds				1/4
Demonic Tutor	Demonic Tutor			2/4	4
was unavailable	is unavailable	Dig Through Time		2/4	1
				-	Doomsday 2
				-	Enlightened Tutor 2
		Entomb	Entomb	2/4
	Earthcraft			1/4
	Edric, Spymaster of Trest			1/4
Fastbond	Fastbond	Fastbond	no entry	3/4	1
Flash	not necessary	not necessary (Hulk banned)	Flash	4/4	7
		Food Chain		1/4
		Gaea's Cradle		1/4
Gifts Ungiven	is unavailable	Gifts Ungiven	Gifts Ungiven	4/4	1
	Goblin Recruiter			1/4
		Grim Monolith		1/4
	Grindstone		Grindstone	2/4
	Hermit Druid	Hermit Druid		2/4	4
	is unavailable	Humility		2/4
Imperial Seal	Imperial Seal	Imperial Seal	Imperial Seal	4/4	2
Intuition				1/4	1
		Karakas		1/4
Library of Alexandria	Library of Alexandria	Library of Alexandria	Library of Alexandria	4/4	1
Life from the Loam				1/4
				-	Lim-Dul's Vault 1
Lion's Eye Diamond				1/4
		Loyal Retainers		1/4
	Karakas			1/4
Mana Crypt	Mana Crypt	Mana Crypt	Mana Crypt	4/4	2
was unavailable	Mana Drain	Mana Drain	no entry	3/4
Mana Vault	Mana Vault	Mana Vault	Mana Vault	4/4	1
	Metalworker			1/4
Mind Twist	Mind Twist	Mind Twist	Mind Twist	4/4	1
was unavailable	Mishra's Workshop	Mishra's Workshop	no entry	3/4
was unavailable	Moxes (Power 9)	Moxes (Power 9)	Moxes (Power 9)	4/4	3
		Mystical Tutor		1/4	2
	is unavailable	Natural Order	Natural Order	3/4	5
	Necropotence			1/4
		Necrotic Ooze		1/4
		Oath of Druids		1/4	1
				-	Personal Tutor 1
	is unavailable	Protean Hulk		2/4	3
Sensei's Divining Top		Sensei's Divining Top	Sensei's Divining Top	3/4
was unavailable	Shahrazad	Shahrazad	Shahrazad	4/4
Skullclamp	Skullclamp		Skullclamp	3/4
Sol Ring	Sol Ring	Sol Ring	Sol Ring	4/4	4
Stoneforge Mystic			Stoneforge Mystic	2/4	1
Strip Mine	Strip Mine	Strip Mine	Strip Mine	4/4	2
				-	Summoner's Pact 2
Survival of the Fittest	Survival of the Fittest		Survival of the Fittest	3/4	2
	Sword of Body and Mind			1/4
				-	Tainted Pact 1
		The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale		1/4
Time Vault	Time Vault	Time Vault	Time Vault	4/4	7
was unavailable	Time Walk	Time Walk	Time Walk	4/4	5
was unavailable	Timetwister			2/4
Tinker	not necessary	Tinker	Tinker	4/4	5
Tolarian Academy	Tolarian Academy	Tolarian Academy	no entry	3/4	1
				-	Transmute Artifact 1
was unavailable	is unavailable	Treasure Cruise		3/4	1
				-	True-Name Nemesis 1
Umezawa's Jitte	Umezawa's Jitte		Umezawa's Jitte	3/4	2
Vampiric Tutor	Vampiric Tutor	Vampiric Tutor	Vampiric Tutor	4/4	3
Wheel of Fortune	Wheel of Fortune			2/4
	Yawgmoth's Will			1/4

thx for this comparison of the different highlander-formats, maybe share this in our facebook-group too. australian highlander is missing or are there any reasons for not including a 60-card highlander format? http://www.auseternal.com/7-point-highlander/

thx for the feedback
Australian Highlander added
shared on fb group HL Europe

Singleton (inactive)	Tiny Leaders	Duel Commander	(European) Highlander		Canadian Highlander (10 points)	Australian Highlander * (7 points)
was unavailable	Ancestral Recall	Ancestral Recall	Ancestral Recall	4/4	5	4
		Ancient Tomb		1/4
Balance	Balance		Balance	3/4	1	1
		Back to Basics		1/4
	is unavailable		Birthing Pod	2/4	3	1
was unavailable	Black Lotus	Black Lotus	Black Lotus	4/4	7	4
	Black Vise			1/4
	Channel	Channel		2/4		2
	Counterbalance			1/4
Crucible of Worlds				1/4
Demonic Tutor	Demonic Tutor			2/4	4	3
was unavailable	is unavailable	Dig Through Time		2/4	1	2
				-	Doomsday 2
				-	Enlightened Tutor 2	1
		Entomb	Entomb	2/4
	Earthcraft			1/4
	Edric, Spymaster of Trest			1/4
Fastbond	Fastbond	Fastbond	no entry	3/4	1	1
Flash	not necessary	not necessary (Hulk banned)	Flash	4/4	7	1
		Food Chain		1/4
		Gaea's Cradle		1/4
Gifts Ungiven	is unavailable	Gifts Ungiven	Gifts Ungiven	4/4	1	1
	Goblin Recruiter			1/4
		Grim Monolith		1/4
	Grindstone		Grindstone	2/4
	Hermit Druid	Hermit Druid		2/4	4	1
	is unavailable	Humility		2/4
Imperial Seal	Imperial Seal	Imperial Seal	Imperial Seal	4/4	2	3
Intuition				1/4	1	1
		Karakas		1/4		1
Library of Alexandria	Library of Alexandria	Library of Alexandria	Library of Alexandria	4/4	1	2
Life from the Loam				1/4
				-	Lim-Dul's Vault 1	1
Lion's Eye Diamond				1/4
		Loyal Retainers		1/4
	Karakas			1/4
Mana Crypt	Mana Crypt	Mana Crypt	Mana Crypt	4/4	2	2
was unavailable	Mana Drain	Mana Drain	no entry	3/4		1
Mana Vault	Mana Vault	Mana Vault	Mana Vault	4/4	1	1
	Metalworker			1/4
Mind Twist	Mind Twist	Mind Twist	Mind Twist	4/4	1	1
was unavailable	Mishra's Workshop	Mishra's Workshop	no entry	3/4		1
was unavailable	Moxes (Power 9)	Moxes (Power 9)	Moxes (Power 9)	4/4	3	2
		Mystical Tutor		1/4	2	2
	is unavailable	Natural Order	Natural Order	3/4	5	1
	Necropotence			1/4
		Necrotic Ooze		1/4
		Oath of Druids		1/4	1	1
				-	Personal Tutor 1	1
	is unavailable	Protean Hulk		2/4	3	1
Sensei's Divining Top		Sensei's Divining Top	Sensei's Divining Top	3/4
was unavailable	Shahrazad	Shahrazad	Shahrazad	4/4
Skullclamp	Skullclamp		Skullclamp	3/4		2
Sol Ring	Sol Ring	Sol Ring	Sol Ring	4/4	4	3
Stoneforge Mystic			Stoneforge Mystic	2/4	1	1
Strip Mine	Strip Mine	Strip Mine	Strip Mine	4/4	2	2
				-	Summoner's Pact 2
Survival of the Fittest	Survival of the Fittest		Survival of the Fittest	3/4	2	1
	Sword of Body and Mind			1/4
				-	Tainted Pact 1	1
		The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale		1/4
Time Vault	Time Vault	Time Vault	Time Vault	4/4	7	3
was unavailable	Time Walk	Time Walk	Time Walk	4/4	5	3
was unavailable	Timetwister			2/4		1
Tinker	not necessary	Tinker	Tinker	4/4	5	3
Tolarian Academy	Tolarian Academy	Tolarian Academy	no entry	3/4	1	2
				-	Transmute Artifact 1
was unavailable	is unavailable	Treasure Cruise		3/4	1	1
				-	True-Name Nemesis 1	1
Umezawa's Jitte	Umezawa's Jitte		Umezawa's Jitte	3/4	2	1
Vampiric Tutor	Vampiric Tutor	Vampiric Tutor	Vampiric Tutor	4/4	3	3
Wheel of Fortune	Wheel of Fortune			2/4		1
	Yawgmoth's Will			1/4		3

* additionally 1 point at Australian Highlander: Crop Rotation, Dark Petition, Force of Will, Green Sun's Zenith,  Jace, the Mind Sculptor, Muddle the Mixture, Memory Jar, Merchant Scroll, Snapcaster Mage, Steelshaper's Gift, Time Spiral, Yawgmoth's Bargain, Wasteland, Worldly Tutor

Duel Commander MTGO	Duel Commander Community	Highlander		Canadian Highlander (10 points)	Australian Highlander (7 points)
Ancestral Recall	Ancestral Recall	Ancestral Recall	3/3	6	4
Arcum Dagsson			1/3
Back to Basics	Back to Basics	no entry	2/3		1
Balance		Balance	2/3	1	1
Bazaar of Baghdad			1/3		1
		Birthing Pod	1/3	3	1
Black Lotus	Black Lotus	Black Lotus	3/3	7	4
Braids, Cabal Minion			1/3
Brainstorm			1/3
			-	Demonic Tutor 4	3
Channel	Channel	no entry	2/3		2
	Chrome Mox		1/3
Derevi, Empyrial Tactician			1/3
Dig Through Time	Dig Through Time	no entry	2/3	1	2
	Eidolon of the Great Revel		1/3
	Emrakul the Aeons Thorn		1/3
Doomsday			1/3	2
Edric, Spymaster of Trest			1/3
			-	Enlightened Tutor 1	1
Entomb	Entomb	no entry	2/3
Erayo, Soratami Ascendant			1/3
Fastbond			1/3	1	1
	Fireblast		1/3		1
not necessary (Hulk banned)	not necessary (Hulk banned)	Flash	3/3	7
Food Chain	Food Chain	no entry	2/3
Gaea's Cradle	Gaea's Cradle	no entry	2/3
Gifts Ungiven	Gifts Ungiven	Gifts Ungiven	3/3	2	1
Griselbrand			1/3
	Grim Monolith		1/3
Hermit Druid	Hermit Druid		2/3	3	1
Humility	Humility		2/3
	Imperial Seal		1/3	2	3
			-	Intution 1	1
Karakas	Karakas	Commander-Specific	2/3		1
Library of Alexandria	Library of Alexandria	Library of Alexandria	3/3	1	2
			-	Lim-Dul's Vault 1	1
	Loyal Retainers		1/3
Mana Crypt	Mana Crypt	Mana Crypt	3/3	2	2
Mana Drain	Mana Drain	no entry	2/3		1
Mana Vault	Mana Vault	Mana Vault	3/3	1	1
			-	Merchant Scroll 1
Mind Twist		Mind Twist	2/3	1	1
Mishra's Workshop	Mishra's Workshop	no entry	2/3		1
Moat			1/3
Moxes (Power 9)	Moxes (Power 9)	Moxes (Power 9)	3/3	3	3
	Mystical Tutor	Mystical Tutor	2/3	2	2
Natural Order	Natural Order	Natural Order	3/3	5	1
Necropotence		Commander-Specific	1/3
	Necrotic Ooze		1/3
Oath of Druids	Oath of Druids		2/3	1	1
			1/3	Personal Tutor 1	1
	Polymorph	Commander-Specific	1/3
Ponder			1/3
Preordain			1/3
	Price of Progress		1/3
Protean Hulk	Protean Hulk		2/3	3	2
Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary			1/3		1
Sensei's Divining Top	Sensei's Divining Top	Sensei's Divining Top	3/3		1
Serra Ascendant		Commander-Specific	1/3		2
[not available]	Shahrazad	Shahrazad	3/3
		Skullclamp	1/3		2
Sol Ring	Sol Ring	Sol Ring	3/3	4	3
			-	Stoneforge Mystic 1	1
Strip Mine	Strip Mine	Strip Mine	3/3	2	2
	Sulfuric Vortex		1/3		1
			-	Summoner's Pact 2
Survival of the Fittest		Survival of the Fittest	2/3	2	1
			-	Tainted Pact 1	1
The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale	The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale	no entry	2/3
Time Vault	Time Vault	Time Vault	3/3	7	4
Time Walk	Time Walk	Time Walk	3/3	6	3
Tinker	Tinker	Tinker	3/3	5	3
Tolarian Academy	Tolarian Academy	no entry	2/3	1	2
			-	Transmute Artifact 1
Treachery			1/3
Treasure Cruise	Treasure Cruise	no entry	2/3	1	1
			-	True-Name Nemesis 1	1
		Umezawa's Jitte	1/3	2	1
	Vampiric Tutor	Vampiric Tutor	2/3	3	3
Vial Smasher the Fierce		Commander-Specific	1/3
			-	Worldly Tutor 1	1
Yawgmoth's Bargain		Commander-Specific	1/3
Yisan, the Wanderer Bard		Commander-Specific	1/3
Zur the Enchanter		Commander-Specific	1/3

[French] Duel Commander started some bans to keep RDW in check: Eidolon, Fireblast, Price of Progress, Sulfuric Vortex

Entomb: banned in Commander, unbanned rather no points at all in Highlander
Gaea's Cradle: banned in Commander, unbanned rather no points at all in Highlander
Mana Drain: banned in Commander, unbanned rather no points at all in Canadian Highlander (Australian Highlander 1/7)

Birthing Pod: unbanned in Commander, banned rather 3/10, 1/7 points in Highlander
Mystical Tutor: unbanned in Commander, banned rather 2/10, 2/7 points in Highlander