The new HL bannnings/unbannings have been published to the index page of magicplayer.org (http://magicplayer.org) (automated Google Translate version here (http://translate.google.com/translate?js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=1&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fmagicplayer.org%2F&sl=de&tl=en)) by Sturmgott a short while ago.
In a nutshell the changes are:
Banned:
- Entomb
- Grindstone
- Mind Twist
- Survival of the Fittest
Unbanned:
- Painter's Servant
- Power Artifact
Unban-Watchlist:
- Flash
- Protean Hulk
- Worldgorger Dragon
Ban-Watchlist
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror BreakerSurvival of the Fittest- Life from the Loam
- Sneak Attack
Other game specific changes: The recommended minimum round time will be 60 minutes.
Edit: Forgot the Ban-Watchlist changes. Added.
I think this is a major step in the right direction. All the banned cards were clearly problematic and unfun to play against. It is great to see things shaken up a bit with the unbannings as well. I am anxious to see what the players will come up with in this environment.
Whoa, my reanimator just died, but on the other hand I think the council made decent job here. Interesting to see how the format will react to this. Thanks for banning Mind Twist! (if this is not an april fools joke...)
(I'll start complaining about Library, Gifts, Loam and other stuff later again :))
So we have to wait until the weekend to get the motivations for the bannings. But I appreciate the banning of Survival and the unbanning of painter.
Dont know about Entomb. Since Reanimator got nerfed with the banning of buried alive (yea yea nobody was playing it...) and dread return (CC4 reanimatore spell are rare to find) and now Survival (for the lists which had green) I see this kind of deck "dying".
About Mind Twist: Seems ok. Nothing to complain. Sometimes a random win vs control (like Rude Awakening :D) or a dead card vs aggro.
Power Artifact: Dont see if its imba to get infinite mana with Monolith...we´ll see.
Watchlist:
Protean Hulk: Well its a fun creature and to see it again in the decks would be nice. But it can be rly broken with any recurring engine..dont know.
Sneak Attack: I assume its there bc of the new eldrazi?
Just first impressions; I wait with my complains about LoA until the weekend :D
btw. I forbid any shenanigans with 1st of April!
Quote from: Tabris on 01-04-2010, 01:01:55 PMDont know about Entomb. Since Reanimator got nerfed with the banning of buried alive (yea yea nobody was playing it...) and dread return (CC4 reanimatore spell are rare to find) and now Survival (for the lists which had green) I see this kind of deck "dying".
I have hard time imagining its complete demise, as Entomb was clearly nuts, but the deck never relied on finding it anyway. I think it still is one of the most powerful archetypes around and it keeps getting potetial goodies from pratically every new set released. I am really glad it got hit, as before the bans, it was a monster (stupid Iona).
The changes are, for the most part, good. I'm happy about the Painter-Stone change, Mind Twist being gone, neutral about Entomb and, as a Survival player, a bit sad to see the green thing go. Still, especially now with Iona's printing, Survival and Entomb were pretty much necessary bans.
What I'm somewhat mystified by is that Library of Alexandria wasn't banned, as the card is quite ridiculous and luck-based.
I think the bannings are good, but the Fact that today is 1.April make me think that the Banning of Survival is 90% fake and Mind Twist 20%.
In my oppinion every overpowered card should be banned:
Oath of Driuds(I know Control is not dominating, but this card is totally overpowerde though,just think of the new Eldrazi
Library of Alexandria (Do you really think that it's normal for a land to draw cards just by tapping and it prdouzes mana)
Survival of the Fittest ( Maybe now you have realized that this card is dominating the format)
DemonicTutor ( Every other Tutor for every thing cost 4(This card is the favorite of Sturmgott)
Bazzar of Bagdad ( This card belongs to P9)
Quote from: GoblinPiledriver on 01-04-2010, 03:41:35 PM
In my oppinion every overpowered card should be banned:
Oath of Driuds(I know Control is not dominating, but this card is totally overpowerde though,just think of the new Eldrazi
Library of Alexandria (Do you really think that it's normal for a land to draw cards just by tapping and it prdouzes mana)
Survival of the Fittest ( Maybe now you have realized that this card is dominating the format)
DemonicTutor ( Every other Tutor for every thing cost 4(This card is the favorite of Sturmgott)
Bazzar of Bagdad ( This card belongs to P9)
He is completely right nothing more to say...
Except from Winterorb ( Aggro is dominating the meta anyway and this one is only 2 colorless mana! )
Quote from: GoblinPiledriver on 01-04-2010, 03:41:35 PM
I think the bannings are good, but the Fact that today is 1.April make me think that the Banning of Survival is 90% fake and Mind Twist 20%.
In my oppinion every overpowered card should be banned:
Oath of Driuds(I know Control is not dominating, but this card is totally overpowerde though,just think of the new Eldrazi
Library of Alexandria (Do you really think that it's normal for a land to draw cards just by tapping and it prdouzes mana)
Survival of the Fittest ( Maybe now you have realized that this card is dominating the format)
DemonicTutor ( Every other Tutor for every thing cost 4(This card is the favorite of Sturmgott)
Bazzar of Bagdad ( This card belongs to P9)
Besides survival and library none of those cards seem all that problematic to me.
Oath is a monster, but control is extremely weak as is and with enlightened tutor gone it isn't that easy to land an early oath. Oath is also one of the few ways control can end games quickly which is important if you ask me.
Bazaar of Baghdad has never impressed me. It is nowhere near as powerful as LoA or even workshop. I think workshop and bazaar are fine as is.
Demonic is powerful, but I like having tutors. I also don't see it doing anything inherently stupid. Gifts is much more of an I win card that demonic, but I dislike banning tutors anyway. I would like to see enlightened and mystical unbanned tbh.
I do appreciate the changes, all of them. I was browsing Highlandermagic.info yesterday, seeing Power Artifact banned and thinking "WTF is this card doing here?" and then it was instantly removed. These changes will do good to the format. Entomb was maybe most broken card in the list, and banning it is just in line with all other good 1cc instant tutors being banned. I admit that I have been rather frustrated when the council seemed to deny problems in certain cards, but this move proves the opposite. I apologize my harsh words. Still, let the debate on some cards continue after the dust settles on these bannings.
Well, but of mixed feelings in that new list.
Mind twist banned but no LoA? Weird...
Survival --- :( didn't played with it, but liked playing vs it. I'd prefer to see a ban on squee first, since it's the big engine behind SOFT and see how SOFT would be played after that..
Entomb... yeah, probaly a good choice, random fatty on turn two is just too powerful in our format...
As for bazaar (someone mentioned it...) i think it's too much specific to be of any serious threat IMO. Unless it starts to dominate, i think it's ok, (just like workshop)
Sneak attack? hmmm.. either there's some super scret tech deck out there, or probably it's because of eldrazi (entomb too?)
I really wish they started watching "balance"... nice good card to wreak super fast aggro plays :D Would love to run it, even if for a brief period.
Quote from: Mythrandir on 01-04-2010, 07:52:05 PM
I really wish they started watching "balance"... nice good card to wreak super fast aggro plays :D Would love to run it, even if for a brief period.
Balance is way too easy to abuse. I think its easily one of the most powerful cards on the banned list and should stay there. It would fit great into my stax deck, but it is really broken. Some friends and I played points singleton in the past and you can easily build a deck that spits out a ton of artifact mana while digging for balance and then just wins. In that format if you did run balance you were at least very restricted on what other tutors and draw 7's you could run because of the points list, but here you can run balance in stax along with things like timetwister and windfall to refuel your hand. I personally think trinisphere is a much fairer card and it really only dominates against aggro. Most midrange and control decks can at least answer it or function to a certain extent. Its also a dead topdeck lategame while balance is just insane at all times. Sorry to beat the same drum again, but I just really miss playing with trinisphere :)
Nice to see the good direction the council is heading. Finally something healthy for the format happening. Only three more cards to go (Demonic, Library and Gifts or Loam). Would give me 3 more slots in every deck. Keep it up.
Quote from: Mythrandir on 01-04-2010, 07:52:05 PM
Survival --- :( didn't played with it, but liked playing vs it. I'd prefer to see a ban on squee first, since it's the big engine behind SOFT and see how SOFT would be played after
Squee wouldn't hurt survival at all. Nice to see you commenting on cards you haven't played with. Maybe it's not auto win against your deck, but sure is against many others.
Quote from: Mythrandir on 01-04-2010, 07:52:05 PM
I really wish they started watching "balance"... nice good card to wreak super fast aggro plays :D Would love to run it, even if for a brief period.
Once again you prove how much you know about the format or MTG in general. I can see why the council has hard time listening to the crowd when people are asking for cards like Balance to be unbanned. No one is stopping you from running it if you want to play casual with your pals. It's just a card that will never even get a glimpse of the unban hammer.
There are certainly misconceptions about balance. To really abuse it, you have to build your deck around it. That means very likely some kind of artifact accel deck = Stax. Now i don't actually see stax being competetive right now, so Balance would help it.
You can't just fit in Balance in any control deck and expect it to work.
QuoteSquee wouldn't hurt survival at all. Nice to see you commenting on cards you haven't played with. Maybe it's not auto win against your deck, but sure is against many others.
Survial decks are, better, were. Really hard to beat because could easily fetch anything to solve every problem, but squee was the big engine behind, it enable every turn a free (for G, obviously) creature tutor. Without squee, you could have genesis, krovikan horror, etc, etc, but these are suboptimal. Without squee you would change your draw (if you happened to draw a creature for another creature) That's quality draw. With squee not only are you getting quality draw, but you're getting card advantage. You'r not trading 1:1 as survival was (probably) designed for.
As for the fact of commenting on cards i've never played... let's just say that phrase is narrow minded to say the least.
QuoteOnce again you prove how much you know about the format or MTG in general. I can see why the council has hard time listening to the crowd when people are asking for cards like Balance to be unbanned. No one is stopping you from running it if you want to play casual with your pals. It's just a card that will never even get a glimpse of the unban hammer.
Balance, in vaccum, well, is balanced (sorry for the pun..) The only deck, that really could abuse it, would be stax, where it would be LD, mindtwist and WOG, just for 2 CMC. In any other deck, it would balance out the game, yes a lot of times it could turn the tables, but so do other cards. If you expect your deck to find everytime balance FTW, well good luck with that.
I for one, would like for my maches to pass turn 5 or 6.. and not to end in 10 minutes, vs aggro. And, yes i prefer playing an 1h match vs a survival deck and losing, that winning in 10 minutes with a linear aggro deck. So, if my comments really upset you so much, you can always not read them.
Quote from: coldcrow on 03-04-2010, 02:44:12 AM
You can't just fit in Balance in any control deck and expect it to work.
Yeah, you would actually put Balance in just about any deck and it would work.
And Mythrandir: imppu is right that Squee is not the bad guy here.
another positive effect the bannings could have would be an ascent of new players.
i heard many people complain about how unfun highlander is (younger ones) /became (older ones) because
"everyone plays survival" and that many associate survival with lame 5c decks they consider to be the only playable deck to play with success (very expensive for most newer players).
this bleak prospect prevented the kids in our store from trying out highlander or playing it on tournaments, now they have the chance to find more fun in the game ( especially when it looks less "serious", its like wizards with their new deal in marketing :D )
btw i also would like to see winter orb banned (with special permission for finns with alternate arts :P )
We had balance in the format for a while and this was no good idea. This card is nuts. As it was written before: It's Mind Twist, Armageddon and Wrath in one card and it's not very hard to abuse it... This card will not hit the format again (as least as I'm a member of the council)
Even though it can sometimes be a game-winner in control match-up's, I do not like the banning of Mind Twist since:
1. It doesn't do much against agro. (Mostly a Hymn for 3)
2. It doesn't get played in agro.
3. It can be a dead card in some situations.
That said it's a good card. I just don't think it's too good, because it's not always affecting the game like Balance and it's sometimes 1:1 or 0:1. Against agro players you rarely have time for abusing it.
Even though I do not play Survival, I think it's a bad banning still. I rarely lose to a Survival deck and I don't think control is dominating the fields. As far as I'm concerned Oath of Druids should DEFINEDLY not be banned now because then control will have nothing left to beat agro. Survival should be on the unban watchlist as should Mind Twist.
The rest is perfect! Good job overall!
Hi, I was just somewhat confused.
According to the banned list page on this site changes don't take effect until April 15 - why does this say April 1 and will these be the official changes made to the banned list on this site? I have a circle of friends who play Highlander in Boston and we've been going by this list, I'm just not sure what's official anymore...Is it going to be updated to include these changes?
Thanks
The banned list, at the moment, is the one on highlandermagic.info. The changes in this thread will be added to it on April 15th. They're just announced ahead of time so people have time to adjust.
Let me tell tiny story about those lovely cards that every deck wants to play. Well actually 1 is land that all non agro decs wants to play. LoA, Loam and Gifts. Something must be wrong if people add 4th or even 5th color to their decks to include that powerfull engine. GW Elf playing blue only to add gifts. 3 color controll becomes 4 color to play Loam.
Now when Mindtwist gets banned, LoA has 1 answer less. Needle, Wasteland, Ghost Quarter, Duress/Thoughtseize (only slows 1 turn), hey, don't get too happy yet. You destroy opponets LoA, want to guess what he does next? You were right, Loam, if that is not already in hand he can use Demonic Tutor to find Loam or Gifts. Gifts gets Loam, Wasteland, some cycling land and something. Something should be done to stop this, it just aint fun to play agains that.
This happened in last tournament i played. Last round and 3-0 gets paired agains 2-1 (me) if i win i might get to first place and if i lose ill be in somewhere middle. Opponent starts, LoA go. Joy, don't have answet to that. Couple turns draw go and opponent has 7 cards and some mana faxes, i have 3 cards and way less permanents in battlefield. You can imagine how that did end.
Game 2. Shiny, i have answet to LoA in hand, couple lands and Demonic Tutor. Land go. Opponent plays fetch, land that gives green, Crop Rotation, LoA. I spent second turn to tutor Wasteland. Extra card for opponent and land go. Yay, LoA goes to grave. Two turns later opponent forces Gifts, gets Loam, Wasteland...... There goes my lands and opponent gets LoA+Loam combo. My buss leaves in 30 mins so i play 20 minutes draw go and watch how opponent draws cards and plays lands.
LoA is just too powerfull card. Loam+Gifts is awsome too, but getting lot of cards with it eats all mana and countering Gifts works to stop it. You can't counter LoA. In my opinnion LoA should be in banned list, so does Loam or Gifts too. Banning Entomb is great, can't use it to get Loam to grave but also makes harder to get 2nd turn Iona agains mono colored decks. Survival makes reanimator and man combo decks bit harder to work, but they are still playable. Bans are ok but there should be LoA and perhaps Gifts or Loam.
-happis
So we´ve got the the reasons for the bannings. Will be there a translation ?
Quote from: Kassow-Rossing on 05-04-2010, 01:29:57 PM
Even though it can sometimes be a game-winner in control match-up's, I do not like the banning of Mind Twist since:
1. It doesn't do much against agro. (Mostly a Hymn for 3)
2. It doesn't get played in agro.
3. It can be a dead card in some situations.
That said it's a good card. I just don't think it's too good, because it's not always affecting the game like Balance and it's sometimes 1:1 or 0:1. Against agro players you rarely have time for abusing it.
Even though I do not play Survival, I think it's a bad banning still. I rarely lose to a Survival deck and I don't think control is dominating the fields. As far as I'm concerned Oath of Druids should DEFINEDLY not be banned now because then control will have nothing left to beat agro. Survival should be on the unban watchlist as should Mind Twist.
The rest is perfect! Good job overall!
1. Agreed.
2. It gets played in midrange and I would play it if it was on color in other aggro decks too.
3. All cards can be dead in some situations.
Mind Twist is a devastating card, my main reasons for being happy to see it gone is that it's not a a fun card and I don't have to cut another card in my 5CC in favor of Mind Twist ^^.
Protip: When spelling a word in all capital letters, spell it right! :P
Quote from: Tabris on 05-04-2010, 04:54:58 PM
So we´ve got the the reasons for the bannings. Will be there a translation ?
You are welcome to do the translation. I have no time for it.
Since people have been talking about possibly banning LoA, gifts and loam I'll just give my opinions...
I believe LoA is by far the most broken card of the 3. It is probably the most broken card that is legal atm. I think its strictly better than mind twist and hate how random some games can be thanks to the autowins/autolosses you will have due to opening with turn 1 LoA. It should be banned.
Gifts is also extremely powerful. It is really the most powerful tutor out there as it can tutor up many different 2 card combos that win the game as well as various answers or engines. Most of the time if you resolve gifts at your opponents eot and untap with enough mana you can't lose. That being said gifts can easily be countered or discarded. It is a lot easier to stop gifts from resolving than to shut down LoA. We also have a lot of other very powerful tutors in this format and until control decks running gifts start dominating the format I am fine with it staying. I actually don't like banning tutors and would probably want gifts to be legal regardless especially since it is fairly mana intensive and a lot of cheap mana accel is already banned.
I don't think loam engines are all that powerful. Even if they get going you can win through them and unless you gifts into a loam engine they take a lot of luck/setup. Gifts into loam is also somewhat unimpressive when compared to other gifts piles so I don't think loam should be banned.
Quote from: Tabris on 05-04-2010, 04:54:58 PM
So we´ve got the the reasons for the bannings. Will be there a translation ?
I found the Google translate link (http://translate.google.com/translate?js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=1&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fmagicplayer.org%2F&sl=de&tl=en) posted in the first post sufficient. Hope you can use it :)
Quote from: Kristian on 05-04-2010, 08:51:53 PM
Quote from: Tabris on 05-04-2010, 04:54:58 PM
So we´ve got the the reasons for the bannings. Will be there a translation ?
I found the Google translate link (http://translate.google.com/translate?js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=1&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fmagicplayer.org%2F&sl=de&tl=en) posted in the first post sufficient. Hope you can use it :)
Well, some really ackward phrases there, but we can get the gist of it. Glad they pondered squee getting the hammer, but i understand that SOFT was too dominant and even more problematic (IMO) it raised a lot of time issues with all the searching and shuffling.
As for entomb + iona example, i sure hope that wasn't decisive for the banning...
And couldn't agree more on the "last comments", even reading via google translator!
I will make a short excerpt if ppl want to.
Quote from: Sturmgott on 05-04-2010, 08:16:25 PM
Quote from: Tabris on 05-04-2010, 04:54:58 PM
So we´ve got the the reasons for the bannings. Will be there a translation ?
You are welcome to do the translation. I have no time for it.
Thanks for the input.
Do not unban Balance, do not ban winter orb (wtf?) and LoA & Gifts are just too good. They are one of the most unfun cards you can face when playing control and that makes me unwilling to even consider the possibility of bringing pure control deck to a tournament. "Oh great, you drew that. Guess I lose.". If people are playing more and more aggro, it could be because people think, that control mirrors are too luck dependent to be enjoyable. That is at least what I think, and take in to consideration when deciding what to play in a tournament. Banning Mind Twist made control more relevant, but you better play LoA and blue (or splash it for Gifts) or no dice.
Quote from: Mythrandir on 05-04-2010, 09:47:05 PMGlad they pondered squee getting the hammer, but i understand that SOFT was too dominant and even more problematic (IMO) it raised a lot of time issues with all the searching and shuffling.
Either Survival was answered (aggro decks just deployed everything they got and hoped for the best), or Survival won. It won either by assembling some stupid combo, or in the long run which is equally unfun to play against. Not to mention time issues.
Banning Squee, would have made the "long run" longer, but that's about it. Genesis, Gigapede and the rest of the crew would have picked up the torch and probably made the deck better as three mana 1/1, is not good or even decent without Survival.
Quote from: Mythrandir on 05-04-2010, 09:47:05 PMAs for entomb + iona example, i sure hope that wasn't decisive for the banning...
Have you ever faced a turn three (or turn two) Iona? It is quite enjoyable. Basically it shuts down 40-90% of your deck, and that means 100% of your answers to the said annoyance. It's not even like you could race it, or attack into it: 7/7 flying creature does fine job holding the ground, until the reanimator can find more creatures or removal for the KO.
Add in the fact, that entomb could find even better answer to current situation, if "meddling mage your deck" is not good enough. Iona is just too good, too often. And when she was not what the doctor had ordered, find something else. Hence, bye Entomb. And good riddance.
I like that council took the action immediately when Entomb became a real problem. Before Iona, this was still probably too good, but not a dreaded menace to society.
QuoteHave you ever faced a turn three (or turn two) Iona? It is quite enjoyable. Basically it shuts down 40-90% of your deck, and that means 100% of your answers to the said annoyance. It's not even like you could race it, or attack into it: 7/7 flying creature does fine job holding the ground, until the reanimator can find more creatures or removal for the KO.
Well, it's as enjoyable as a turn 3 BTB.... Also, made up percentages always make me lol ;) 40-90% of my deck meaning 100% of my answers to it?!
I think entomb was a goood ban don't take me wrong, but more problematic than a simple entomb + iona was the variety of fatties (and other stuff) it could tutor at instant speed. Iona shuts down a monocolored deck for sure, for dual color it is really harsh but not game over (very depend on your two colors), for 3 to 5 (plus colorless stuff: maze of ith) it isn't really of a menace, progenitus is way worse or anything fat and "untouchable".
And as for people not bringing control to tournaments, it might have something to do with time limits (not only you might draw instead of winning, but is more tiresome to play long matches...) and also because aggro might be so darn good.
Also i play control and don't play LoA, and i have relatively good score vs control, IMO.
I would say your opinions are rather subjective.
In recent years, Wizards have printed crazy amount of creatures that make yesterday superstars Morphling, Wild Mongrel and Jackal Pup look like medieval footmen confronting modern warfare. Remember when you Oathed up a legend named Spirit of the Night? Creatures have become insanely more effective, and there is no reason this trend is going to change. Cards that help cheat them play are becoming stronger and stronger.
Good luck animating Progenitus, by the way. And Maze of Ith is hardly an answer to Iona as you still have to win the game somehow with majority of your relevant spells disabled.
Quote from: Mythrandir on 06-04-2010, 08:44:15 PM
QuoteHave you ever faced a turn three (or turn two) Iona? It is quite enjoyable. Basically it shuts down 40-90% of your deck, and that means 100% of your answers to the said annoyance. It's not even like you could race it, or attack into it: 7/7 flying creature does fine job holding the ground, until the reanimator can find more creatures or removal for the KO.
Well, it's as enjoyable as a turn 3 BTB.... Also, made up percentages always make me lol ;) 40-90% of my deck meaning 100% of my answers to it?!
Unless you play 5c control or something like that, those percentages are not far off (remember: Iona naming one of your three colors, will shut down nearly all of your multicolor spells as well). As a side note, practically none of the decks I play will lose, or even mind seeing BTB at all.
You really seem like a guy, who plays the same deck(s) over and over again, and makes all the assumptions based on what is good, and what is not against your deck(s). I might be wrong, but if this the case, you have a seriously flawed perspective of the overall field.
QuoteI think entomb was a goood ban don't take me wrong, but more problematic than a simple entomb + iona was the variety of fatties (and other stuff) it could tutor at instant speed. Iona shuts down a monocolored deck for sure, for dual color it is really harsh but not game over (very depend on your two colors), for 3 to 5 (plus colorless stuff: maze of ith) it isn't really of a menace, progenitus is way worse or anything fat and "untouchable".
Maze of Ith is not really a removal. You play it and then what? You still can't get rid of the darn thing, and a proper reanimator deck will produce another huge fattie on the table soon enough. Monocolored decks lose, no questions asked. Two colored decks will lose majority of their spells as they will have several multicolor spells (the named color is also the one that has all the straight up removal). Three colored decks have a fighting chance, but most likely Iona takes away the only color that have answers, so they are stuck with their own game plan without at least 40% of their spells most likely more.
Progenitus is not a very good argument, as it's not a reanimator target. Not to mention, I would rather face turn 3 progenitus than Iona when I am playing a one or two colored deck. It basically means the game is over two turns later, rather than immediately.
QuoteAlso i play control and don't play LoA, and i have relatively good score vs control, IMO.
You don't NEED to play LoA in order to have a good control vs. control win percentage, but if you draw it early on and opponent doesn't answer it immediately, you win.
For example, you have 65-35 win percentage over another control deck, and you are also a little better player than your opponent, so you have a great chance to win the match. You both play LoA, and in the first game, you opponent draws it while you have no answers, resulting of your inevitable loss. Frustrated, you start the second game where no LoA is drawn, and you crush your opponent like your deck always does against him.
In the third game, you keep a hand that has no answers to LoA, but will win if your opponent does not manage to draw it. The outcome of this game is solely dependent on the possibility of your opponent drawing the LoA and all the other factors are irrelevant.
QuoteYou really seem like a guy, who plays the same deck(s) over and over again, and makes all the assumptions based on what is good, and what is not against your deck(s). I might be wrong, but if this the case, you have a seriously flawed perspective of the overall field.
Yeap, i do play 5cc over and over, and yes, my opinions are subjective, like all opinions and i although i'd like for our format to slow down, i don't come here demanding bans on cards i don't like (BTB,blood moon, PoP winter orb, tangle wire, etc, etc and the list goes on...). I don't like them, but i know they aren't broken enough to be banned. And i don't know if i've already posted it here... but even though LoA is pure control and i love it, i think it breaks the game in half and should be banned. So even though my perspective is flawed, like everyother opinion (some more than others.. true) i don't want a banned list just for me, if i did, i'd quit this and played casual highlander.
Quote
Maze of Ith is not really a removal..
Perhaps i didn't express myself correctly, i said maze as an example. In case of Iona, MTG has "6 colors" WRUBG + colorless... what i meant was you could still use your artifacts/lands and other colorless spells. Not that maze would save the day
Quote
Progenitus is not a very good argument, as it's not a reanimator target. Not to mention, I would rather face turn 3 progenitus than Iona when I am playing a one or two colored deck. It basically means the game is over two turns later, rather than immediately.
Yeap, i know it's not a reanimation target, but it can be played in natural order or oath. And see what i mean (opinions are subjective)
you prefer a turn 3 progenitus,
i prefer a turn 2 iona. The fact that really annoys is that i'm perfectly fine with other ppls opinions, but apparently me saying: Reanimate + iona wasn't very broken (or at least wasn't dominating the meta), and even after i expressed in favor of banning of entomb is somewhat offensive to some players
I always post here my opinions which i know are just opinions and i understand that if there were 100 different councils, there would probably be 100 different list (probably not so much.. but you know what i mean) and i'm fine with it as long as the format remains both enjoyable and competitive, which, btw, i think that the council has accomplished it even though i some different
opinions from theirs
What comes to Iona: It, by itself is not a defining card, but since wizards clearly is fond of making big creatures, that have huge impact, cheating a big creature onto play with cheap can be problematic. Iona is problematic to anything that is not made of five colors and entomb could find something like Sundering Titan when opposing lands are forming a rainbow. I think Oath should be on the watch list because of this.
What comes to subjectivity: Like you said, some opinions are more subjective, than others. I like to think myself as an open minded player as I like to play combo and control and I've grown sudden interest and fond of aggro just recently. I try to make decks that are not something you would see everyday (bit of a Johnny side, I know) and testing these kinds of decks leads to me having several cards I am not so fond of. The cards I have most problem, are the cards that are so powerful they render play skill useless. Mind Twist was one, LoA and Gifts IMO belong to this category as well. Some could claim Gifts requires play skill, and they are correct, but the effect is still huge, even when you are not searching optimally. I could be wrong, but many people think alike so that leads me to the conclusion I might be right. At the very least, we do not have unanimosity.
Also the fact that these cards are practically automatic includes in decks that run the corresponding color, is not a positive aspect, but it is something I can live with if they are otherwise not too powerful.
What comes to you offending people with your opinions: If you want to express your opinions, you are entitled to do so. But if I feel that your opinion is somewhat flawed, I might want to state what I think. If there would be just one player expressing their thoughts on banned list, the council might just think he represents the whole community. The more people are expressing their opinions, the more we have variety and the more data council has when they are determining the voice of the community.
If you prefer not to "offend" people with your opinions, do not say a thing. If you want your voice to be heard, prepare to defend it with facts.
Happis
Your Gifts-Loam problem can be, partly, solved with Tormod's Crypt. If you have the wrong build, then you owe to lose to great comboes.
Quote from: Tiggupiru on 07-04-2010, 01:26:26 AM
What comes to Iona: It, by itself is not a defining card, but since wizards clearly is fond of making big creatures, that have huge impact, cheating a big creature onto play with cheap can be problematic. Iona is problematic to anything that is not made of five colors and entomb could find something like Sundering Titan when opposing lands are forming a rainbow. I think Oath should be on the watch list because of this.
A intelligent Oath player does not include Sundering Titan in his deck. There are about seven better creatures out there for Oath'ing. Besides: including a card that will sometimes wreck your own mana base to pieces if you accidently happen to hit it with Oath isn't very smart. That said it's not a very powerful creature either. Much better out there! For animator's I can imagine it's quite good because you can always choose not to destroy all your own lands by getting another fattie.
Quote from: Kassow-Rossing on 07-04-2010, 12:20:46 PMQuote from: Tiggupiru on 07-04-2010, 01:26:26 AM
What comes to Iona: It, by itself is not a defining card, but since wizards clearly is fond of making big creatures, that have huge impact, cheating a big creature onto play with cheap can be problematic. Iona is problematic to anything that is not made of five colors and entomb could find something like Sundering Titan when opposing lands are forming a rainbow. I think Oath should be on the watch list because of this.
A intelligent Oath player does not include Sundering Titan in his deck. There are about seven better creatures out there for Oath'ing. Besides: including a card that will sometimes wreck your own mana base to pieces if you accidently happen to hit it with Oath isn't very smart. That said it's not a very powerful creature either. Much better out there! For animator's I can imagine it's quite good because you can always choose not to destroy all your own lands by getting another fattie.
You misunderstood me. I think Oath should be on the watch list, because wizards keep printing huge fatties and the yesterdays big creatures are constantly being overshadowed by new ones. By this trend, I fully expect a creature so powerful to be printed that will cause Oath to get banned in HL.
I do not think Sundering Titan is a good creature to Oath, I was merely pointing out, that while Iona is very problematic against most of the decks, Entomb can find silver bullet answer, if opposing deck can handle Iona.
I guess I could have made an extra effort to articulate clearer there, but I was writing that too late for that.
Quote from: Tiggupiru on 07-04-2010, 12:33:34 PMI think Oath should be on the watch list, because wizards keep printing huge fatties and the yesterdays big creatures are constantly being overshadowed by new ones. By this trend, I fully expect a creature so powerful to be printed that will cause Oath to get banned in HL.r that.
I agree with your reasoning on why Oath should be on the watch list, but given the current meta, I don't think it's ban-worthy.
I do have to admit that I think cheating big creatures into play (be it oath, reanimator or otherwise) is cheating in my opinion xD... The way I see it:
Aggro: Blow up the opponent(s) until you win.
Control: Blow up everything else until you win (stabilize).
Combo: Blow up stuff.
Please don't take my post too seriously.
EDIT: Deleted everything in the quote that wasn't relevant to my post.
Quote from: Kassow-Rossing on 07-04-2010, 12:20:46 PM
Happis
Your Gifts-Loam problem can be, partly, solved with Tormod's Crypt. If you have the wrong build, then you owe to lose to great comboes.
So you find the crypt or lose? The Loam player will have the cycling land to save Loam if they see the crypt.
No wonder German players play aggro. Your reasoning (I'm exaggerating by generalizing) with all problematic cards is to add answers to those specific problematic cards to your deck. By doing so (if these problematic cards are unbanned) you'd actually make a useless control deck (not to mention aggro or combo) with only answers to specific cards rather than building a strong, themed control deck. So what to do when these types of control decks fail before, say, aggro? Play aggro! That is just plain stupid and makes you blind to the problem itself: overpowered cards. By banning these cards (LoA, Gifts to name two) you'd actually probably make control decks better and more played. They could actually focus on a specific threat (namely aggro if you wish) rather than run cards to some idiotic combos which kill you instantly if left unanswered. I just lost (in a tournament) to Gifts when I was playing aggro because it got four cards that just plain won the game straight up. I've lost count how many times this has happened... But what makes this more retarded than any other time was that my opponent was playing elves. ELVES! Gifts was the only blue card in his deck and it was nuts. This just shows how unbalanced that card is. Now the reason I lost was probably because I didn't play enough GY hate, right? What type of aggro would run enough GY hate to win any decent deck out there which relies on GY strategies and still be able to win, say, any deck that doesn't? You'd be drawing blanks and that's just what aggro doesn't want to do.
Think for a while before you guys post on this forum, it seems not many of you have ever played anything remotely competitive. It's ok if you state your business on a more casual perspective (perhaps it would be wise to mention this at the beginning of your post) but as I've understood these ban lists concern more of the tournament side of HL whereas kitchen table magic is a whole world of it's own with possible house rules; you can play with whatever rules and ban lists you want but I wouldn't go commenting on these kinds of threads with "OMG LOLZ Balance is balanced, it's the same for everyone!!1 UNBAN IT!" based on kitchen table experience. It has pretty much nothing to do with competitive HL.
Quote from: Tiggupiru on 07-04-2010, 12:33:34 PM
Quote from: Kassow-Rossing on 07-04-2010, 12:20:46 PMQuote from: Tiggupiru on 07-04-2010, 01:26:26 AM
What comes to Iona: It, by itself is not a defining card, but since wizards clearly is fond of making big creatures, that have huge impact, cheating a big creature onto play with cheap can be problematic. Iona is problematic to anything that is not made of five colors and entomb could find something like Sundering Titan when opposing lands are forming a rainbow. I think Oath should be on the watch list because of this.
A intelligent Oath player does not include Sundering Titan in his deck. There are about seven better creatures out there for Oath'ing. Besides: including a card that will sometimes wreck your own mana base to pieces if you accidently happen to hit it with Oath isn't very smart. That said it's not a very powerful creature either. Much better out there! For animator's I can imagine it's quite good because you can always choose not to destroy all your own lands by getting another fattie.
You misunderstood me. I think Oath should be on the watch list, because wizards keep printing huge fatties and the yesterdays big creatures are constantly being overshadowed by new ones. By this trend, I fully expect a creature so powerful to be printed that will cause Oath to get banned in HL.
I do not think Sundering Titan is a good creature to Oath, I was merely pointing out, that while Iona is very problematic against most of the decks, Entomb can find silver bullet answer, if opposing deck can handle Iona.
I guess I could have made an extra effort to articulate clearer there, but I was writing that too late for that.
I'm posting from a competetive perspective.
Okay point taken. I thought you meant the Oath should be on the watch list because of Sundering. That said I still don't think Oath should be on the watch list untill we see it abused. The fact that creatures are slowly getting stronger and stronger should not force Oath to the watch list. Put it on the watch list when there's a creature too strong out there. Iona is the most dangerous out there for a casual format, but she's not strong enough still.
Quote from: imppu on 07-04-2010, 02:39:05 PM
Quote from: Kassow-Rossing on 07-04-2010, 12:20:46 PM
Happis
Your Gifts-Loam problem can be, partly, solved with Tormod's Crypt. If you have the wrong build, then you owe to lose to great comboes.
So you find the crypt or lose? The Loam player will have the cycling land to save Loam if they see the crypt.
Every deck that cannot beat comboes like Gifts-Loam and also doesn't play any graveyard hate, deserves to lose. In a non-sideboard format your deck should be tuned for any situation you can't handle. If your deck isn't, you can lose to stuff like that. I hope you didn't understand my message to you (The quoted one) as if there's only one possible answer. Tormod's Crypt was just an example. Other cards could be Syncopate, Jund Charm, Relic of Progenitus and so on.
The Loam player will not have the cycling land unless you're really really stupid! And IN THE CASE that he fetches 3x cycling land + Loam (which leads to a cycling land in hand) then you won't lose if your aggro and if you're control, then you should be able to exile the spell or win anyways. If you can't, then you have the wrong build. That said: You should lose sometimes to a great combo like this. Your odds of winning should drop at least 10% when your opponent fetches something this great though!
Quote from: Jukkis on 07-04-2010, 10:07:31 PM
I just lost (in a tournament) to Gifts when I was playing aggro because it got four cards that just plain won the game straight up. I've lost count how many times this has happened... But what makes this more retarded than any other time was that my opponent was playing elves. ELVES! Gifts was the only blue card in his deck and it was nuts. This just shows how unbalanced that card is. Now the reason I lost was probably because I didn't play enough GY hate, right? What type of aggro would run enough GY hate to win any decent deck out there which relies on GY strategies and still be able to win, say, any deck that doesn't? You'd be drawing blanks and that's just what aggro doesn't want to do.
Think for a while before you guys post on this forum, it seems not many of you have ever played anything remotely competitive.
I've left out some stuff I felt was not relevant for this argument.
If you play an aggro deck and loses to a mono green deck splashed for blue where he could find four card that "just plain won the game straight up" then you owe to lose. How is that even possible? The only thing I can think of is maybe that the game entered turn 18 or something where there's suddenly several things in his library that can win him the game "straight up". If an aggro deck doesn't win untill turn 18 (Example once again), then it doesn't deserve to win.
Please explain your hopeless situation and how Gifts could kill your aggro deck when your opponent was playing mono green with splash for only Gifts?
Edit: Graveyard hate does not kill Gifts. I don't know how you can believe that. Graveyard hate can stop Loam combo. Not Gifts itself.
Quote from: Kassow-Rossing on 08-04-2010, 11:34:17 AMI still don't think Oath should be on the watch list untill we see it abused. The fact that creatures are slowly getting stronger and stronger should not force Oath to the watch list. Put it on the watch list when there's a creature too strong out there. Iona is the most dangerous out there for a casual format, but she's not strong enough still.
I see your point and acknowledge that you might be right. But riddle me this, why is Sneak Attack on the watch list? I understand if neither card is in there, but out of the two, why sneak attack?
Besides, people here seem to underestimate Iona. The ability is pretty ridiculous and while I am probably overestimating her (I have a tendency to do that), you are definitely underestimating her.
Quote from: Kassow-Rossing on 08-04-2010, 11:39:10 AMEvery deck that cannot beat comboes like Gifts-Loam and also doesn't play any graveyard hate, deserves to lose. In a non-sideboard format your deck should be tuned for any situation you can't handle. If your deck isn't, you can lose to stuff like that. I hope you didn't understand my message to you (The quoted one) as if there's only one possible answer. Tormod's Crypt was just an example. Other cards could be Syncopate, Jund Charm, Relic of Progenitus and so on.
I agree with you on this one. Buried Alive should be unbanned for this very same reason. Should the graveyard based combo (or any combo) to be too powerful (requiring only a specific answer in the early turns of the game), it should be banned though. Gifts into Loam is not too much of a problem and if Gifts would get banned, Loam probably never is going to be a problem to anybody.
Quote from: Tiggupiru on 08-04-2010, 02:32:26 PM[...] if Gifts would get banned, Loam probably never is going to be a problem to anybody.
Intuition does this at least equally good. With Birds/Elves/etc it can even be played at the EOT 2.
Quote from: Tiggupiru on 08-04-2010, 02:32:26 PM
Buried Alive should be unbanned for this very same reason.
always remeber: with buried alive and kiki-jiki we will create the fastest combo in the format. therefore we banned kiki in the past but the community wanted it back. so we banned buried alive...
Quote from: Sturmgott on 08-04-2010, 03:15:38 PM
Quote from: Tiggupiru on 08-04-2010, 02:32:26 PM[...] if Gifts would get banned, Loam probably never is going to be a problem to anybody.
Intuition does this at least equally good. With Birds/Elves/etc it can even be played at the EOT 2.
This is true, but grabbing loam and three lands is just one of the functions Gifts Ungiven has. More often it gets specific answer to current board situation or some combo to win the game if you seem to have time to execute it. Intuition is unable to provide that kind of versatility in this format and it is reduced to act as a bit of a clunky tutor. Intuition into Loam and two cyclelands is powerful, but when you need to provide answers to specific threat, Intuition is not nearly as reliable as Gifts.
I don't consider Gifts into Loam a problem and Intuition into Loam is somewhat worse. Either way, seems that Loam is not that big of a culprit when you take out Gifts and Intuition out of the equation (though I don't think Intuition needs to go). When you are forced to use several cards to find cyclelands and Loam, the combo is not nearly as good.
Quote from: malz77 on 08-04-2010, 03:31:24 PM
Quote from: Tiggupiru on 08-04-2010, 02:32:26 PM
Buried Alive should be unbanned for this very same reason.
always remeber: with buried alive and kiki-jiki we will create the fastest combo in the format. therefore we banned kiki in the past but the community wanted it back. so we banned buried alive...
While fast, it's fragile. You need to dodge plethora of cards to execute you combo, and drawing one the creatures into your hand requires you to find another combo piece.
It would be really interesting to see the decklist council had for this combo (pretty please), and throw a couple of "ordinary" decks at it, just to see if Buried Alive really is a boogeyman that needs to be in the banned realms.
Quote from: Tiggupiru on 08-04-2010, 04:06:35 PMand drawing one the creatures into your hand requires you to find another combo piece.
not realy. Just think of Cards like Careful Study, Brainstorm, Insidious Dreams, Lat-Nam's Legacy, the Dredge Cards, Breakthrough ... you will run a bunch of this cards
Quote from: malz77 on 08-04-2010, 05:00:52 PM
Quote from: Tiggupiru on 08-04-2010, 04:06:35 PMand drawing one the creatures into your hand requires you to find another combo piece.
not realy. Just think of Cards like Careful Study, Brainstorm, Insidious Dreams, Lat-Nam's Legacy, the Dredge Cards, Breakthrough ... you will run a bunch of this cards
Yes, but you still kinda need to draw one of those.
Quote from: Tiggupiru on 08-04-2010, 07:46:49 PM
Quote from: malz77 on 08-04-2010, 05:00:52 PM
Quote from: Tiggupiru on 08-04-2010, 04:06:35 PMand drawing one the creatures into your hand requires you to find another combo piece.
not realy. Just think of Cards like Careful Study, Brainstorm, Insidious Dreams, Lat-Nam's Legacy, the Dredge Cards, Breakthrough ... you will run a bunch of this cards
Yes, but you still kinda need to draw one of those.
+Dredge really doesn't help you and some of those cards are pretty awkward. Also when you you have to setup your combo with those (or even better cards), the opponent has more time to react and disrupt you so the combo isn't that fast or dangerous any more. If your opinion is that Buried Alive should be banned even if every time one of the combo pieces is in your hand, then wouldn't Intuition deserve the same fate?
This thread made me think of this classic:
http://redwing.hutman.net/~mreed/index.htm
Quote from: Tiggupiru on 08-04-2010, 02:32:26 PM
Quote from: Kassow-Rossing on 08-04-2010, 11:34:17 AMI still don't think Oath should be on the watch list untill we see it abused. The fact that creatures are slowly getting stronger and stronger should not force Oath to the watch list. Put it on the watch list when there's a creature too strong out there. Iona is the most dangerous out there for a casual format, but she's not strong enough still.
I see your point and acknowledge that you might be right. But riddle me this, why is Sneak Attack on the watch list? I understand if neither card is in there, but out of the two, why sneak attack?
Besides, people here seem to underestimate Iona. The ability is pretty ridiculous and while I am probably overestimating her (I have a tendency to do that), you are definitely underestimating her.
Please.. I've played Iona from day one in my Oath deck and it's been more than 500 games so far. I know EXACTLY her up's and down's! I understand the fact that you're maybe overestimating her, but that doesn't make me underestimate her. That's just stupid! Of all the people who play Highlander, I think I'm the one who've had Iona on the Battlefield the most since it's release to be honest.
I can't tell you why Sneak Attack is on the watch list. That is also just looks plain stupid to me. It's a cookie card and we haven't seen anything better than Nicol Bolas and Dragon Tyrant yet (The three Eldrazi titans is maybe better but they're not nearly strong enough to force Sneak Attack into banning). I hope there's a better reason, but I cannot explain why Sneak Attack is on the watch list as of 15.April
And well to the Kiki-Jiki combo Buried Alive:
As the council tells us. The combo is a too fast and dangerous. Will be boring to play with and against.
Kiki-Jiki is the most fun and less overpowered of the two, so it should stay. Buried can be abused in many ways. Kiki-Jiki is just a cool card for FIVE mana lets you combo. Can also be used on a casual level for anything else. Buried is just always bad for a format.
So Kiki got unbanned, Buried got banned. Everybody should be happy because it can't be any other way.
Quote from: Kassow-Rossing on 08-04-2010, 11:54:17 PMPlease.. I've played Iona from day one in my Oath deck and it's been more than 500 games so far. I know EXACTLY her up's and down's! I understand the fact that you're maybe overestimating her, but that doesn't make me underestimate her. That's just stupid! Of all the people who play Highlander, I think I'm the one who've had Iona on the Battlefield the most since it's release to be honest.
I am sorry, I didn't know you have played 5000 games with her! How stupid of me. I understand that makes you qualified to tell EXACTLY how powerful (or powerless) the card really is.
Quote from: Kassow-Rossing on 09-04-2010, 12:01:50 AM
And well to the Kiki-Jiki combo Buried Alive:
As the council tells us. The combo is a too fast and dangerous. Will be boring to play with and against.
Kiki-Jiki is the most fun and less overpowered of the two, so it should stay. Buried can be abused in many ways. Kiki-Jiki is just a cool card for FIVE mana lets you combo. Can also be used on a casual level for anything else. Buried is just always bad for a format.
So Kiki got unbanned, Buried got banned. Everybody should be happy because it can't be any other way.
Well, do YOU have a decklist with that combo? I promise to shut up about the matter and acknowledge that I was wrong, if somebody presents a solid list that indicates how broken Buried Alive really is.
Your speaking from Iona in Oath decks (where she is not powerfull because it's random topdeck). In most cases
you want to topdeck a fast finisher which is maybe one of the new Eldrazis or Progenitus.
In decks which search for a solution like reanimator, (pre ban survival), .... Iona is stupid good.
I am also curious seeing a winning decklist with Buried Alive. How many tournament wins/top8 placings the combo had before it got banned?
Quote from: Nastaboi on 09-04-2010, 12:36:39 PM
I am also curious seeing a winning decklist with Buried Alive. How many tournament wins/top8 placings the combo had before it got banned?
Quote from: malz77 on 08-04-2010, 03:31:24 PM
Quote from: Tiggupiru on 08-04-2010, 02:32:26 PM
Buried Alive should be unbanned for this very same reason.
always remeber: with buried alive and kiki-jiki we will create the fastest combo in the format. therefore we banned kiki in the past but the community wanted it back. so we banned buried alive...
Any open questions?
Yes. Was that combo ever played in a tournament, has it won, or even made top8 ever?
Quote from: Dreamer on 01-04-2010, 01:46:45 PM
Still, especially now with Iona's printing, Survival and Entomb were pretty much necessary bans.
This is exactly the kind of thinking that gets us into these discussions.
"Uh-oh, there's a new card that makes X, Y, and Z broken! We should ban X, Y and Z."
WRONG! Ban the new card! If everyone has such a problem with Iona, ban her! Why ban multiple cards when you can just ban one?
Now, don't get me wrong, I agree with the banning of Survival and Entomb, I'm just using this as an example. (Sorry to pick on you, Dreamer ;) )
Quote from: Kassow-Rossing on 09-04-2010, 12:01:50 AM
And well to the Kiki-Jiki combo Buried Alive:
As the council tells us. The combo is a too fast and dangerous. Will be boring to play with and against.
Kiki-Jiki is the most fun and less overpowered of the two, so it should stay. Buried can be abused in many ways. Kiki-Jiki is just a cool card for FIVE mana lets you combo. Can also be used on a casual level for anything else. Buried is just always bad for a format.
So Kiki got unbanned, Buried got banned. Everybody should be happy because it can't be any other way.
The combo isn't Buried Alive/Kiki, it's Kiki/Pestermite and the combo still exists! Doesn't anyone else see this?
IMHO, there is no reason why Buried Alive should be banned.
Quote from: Drexlin on 13-04-2010, 09:33:03 PM
Quote from: Dreamer on 01-04-2010, 01:46:45 PM
Still, especially now with Iona's printing, Survival and Entomb were pretty much necessary bans.
This is exactly the kind of thinking that gets us into these discussions.
"Uh-oh, there's a new card that makes X, Y, and Z broken! We should ban X, Y and Z."
WRONG! Ban the new card! If everyone has such a problem with Iona, ban her! Why ban multiple cards when you can just ban one?
Now, don't get me wrong, I agree with the banning of Survival and Entomb, I'm just using this as an example. (Sorry to pick on you, Dreamer ;) )
Quote from: Kassow-Rossing on 09-04-2010, 12:01:50 AM
And well to the Kiki-Jiki combo Buried Alive:
As the council tells us. The combo is a too fast and dangerous. Will be boring to play with and against.
Kiki-Jiki is the most fun and less overpowered of the two, so it should stay. Buried can be abused in many ways. Kiki-Jiki is just a cool card for FIVE mana lets you combo. Can also be used on a casual level for anything else. Buried is just always bad for a format.
So Kiki got unbanned, Buried got banned. Everybody should be happy because it can't be any other way.
The combo isn't Buried Alive/Kiki, it's Kiki/Pestermite and the combo still exists! Doesn't anyone else see this?
IMHO, there is no reason why Buried Alive should be banned.
You´ll also need karmicguide in grave ;-)
Quote from: meteora on 13-04-2010, 11:46:23 PM
Quote from: Drexlin on 13-04-2010, 09:33:03 PM
Quote from: Dreamer on 01-04-2010, 01:46:45 PM
Still, especially now with Iona's printing, Survival and Entomb were pretty much necessary bans.
This is exactly the kind of thinking that gets us into these discussions.
"Uh-oh, there's a new card that makes X, Y, and Z broken! We should ban X, Y and Z."
WRONG! Ban the new card! If everyone has such a problem with Iona, ban her! Why ban multiple cards when you can just ban one?
Now, don't get me wrong, I agree with the banning of Survival and Entomb, I'm just using this as an example. (Sorry to pick on you, Dreamer ;) )
Quote from: Kassow-Rossing on 09-04-2010, 12:01:50 AM
And well to the Kiki-Jiki combo Buried Alive:
As the council tells us. The combo is a too fast and dangerous. Will be boring to play with and against.
Kiki-Jiki is the most fun and less overpowered of the two, so it should stay. Buried can be abused in many ways. Kiki-Jiki is just a cool card for FIVE mana lets you combo. Can also be used on a casual level for anything else. Buried is just always bad for a format.
So Kiki got unbanned, Buried got banned. Everybody should be happy because it can't be any other way.
The combo isn't Buried Alive/Kiki, it's Kiki/Pestermite and the combo still exists! Doesn't anyone else see this?
IMHO, there is no reason why Buried Alive should be banned.
You´ll also need karmicguide in grave ;-)
Not necessarily. If I draw Kiki and Pestermite, I still win.
Yes you would do so. You would also win if your savannah lion will attack your opponent for lethal but thats not the topic!
Quote from: Tiggupiru on 09-04-2010, 10:55:20 AM
Quote from: Kassow-Rossing on 08-04-2010, 11:54:17 PMPlease.. I've played Iona from day one in my Oath deck and it's been more than 500 games so far. I know EXACTLY her up's and down's! I understand the fact that you're maybe overestimating her, but that doesn't make me underestimate her. That's just stupid! Of all the people who play Highlander, I think I'm the one who've had Iona on the Battlefield the most since it's release to be honest.
I am sorry, I didn't know you have played 5000 games with her! How stupid of me. I understand that makes you qualified to tell EXACTLY how powerful (or powerless) the card really is.
Quote from: Kassow-Rossing on 09-04-2010, 12:01:50 AM
And well to the Kiki-Jiki combo Buried Alive:
As the council tells us. The combo is a too fast and dangerous. Will be boring to play with and against.
Kiki-Jiki is the most fun and less overpowered of the two, so it should stay. Buried can be abused in many ways. Kiki-Jiki is just a cool card for FIVE mana lets you combo. Can also be used on a casual level for anything else. Buried is just always bad for a format.
So Kiki got unbanned, Buried got banned. Everybody should be happy because it can't be any other way.
Well, do YOU have a decklist with that combo? I promise to shut up about the matter and acknowledge that I was wrong, if somebody presents a solid list that indicates how broken Buried Alive really is.
You make yourself look stupid if you do not read what I write properly! Try again please..
And yes I feel pretty qualified for answering just how good or bad it is to "cheat" Iona to battlefield. I've played reanimat. too with her. She's better there than in Oath. Oh and DerStefan82: Progenitus is not really a good creature for Oath. It's too slow and weak. It leaves a turn 2 clock which can be done better. It has no reach or vigilance so it doesn't protect you will in those two turns either.
No I do not have a decklist including Buried Alive because it's banned, jesus! Did you play Highlander before it got banned? Have you read the councils very reasonable argument for banning it? I'm not sure if I would ban it, but I understand that it is and why it is. I accept it too because it can really be broken sometimes.
Quote from: Kassow-Rossing on 15-04-2010, 01:23:24 AMNo I do not have a decklist including Buried Alive because it's banned, jesus!
You seemed so sure about the power of the combo, I thought you might have a list that is 500 games old.
Quote from: Kassow-Rossing on 15-04-2010, 01:23:24 AMDid you play Highlander before it got banned?
Yes.
Quote from: Kassow-Rossing on 15-04-2010, 01:23:24 AMHave you read the councils very reasonable argument for banning it?
Yes.
Quote from: Kassow-Rossing on 15-04-2010, 01:23:24 AMI'm not sure if I would ban it, but I understand that it is and why it is.
I try to, but I still can't. It just seems to be so inconsistent. And even if it was not, I would not agree with it.
Quote from: Kassow-Rossing on 15-04-2010, 01:23:24 AMI accept it too because it can really be broken sometimes.
I think I could accept it, if there were some consistency, but there hasn't been. I still would not like it as the deck I've been toying with just seems loose and something I would not take on to a tournament, because the random nature of the format requires you to have consistent combo that is not easily disrupted. Otherwise aggro will run over you and even your good matchups will pack several cards that are capable of destroying the combo. Effectively, making you jump through several hoops and giving opponents time to execute their own game plan. Not to mention prebanning a card that has seen no tournament top 8 play (excluding when being played without combo in a reanimator), is something I am really unsure about.
Quote from: Tiggupiru on 15-04-2010, 09:38:35 AM
Quote from: Kassow-Rossing on 15-04-2010, 01:23:24 AMNo I do not have a decklist including Buried Alive because it's banned, jesus!
You seemed so sure about the power of the combo, I thought you might have a list that is 500 games old.
This time you got the number correct :) Not 5000, 500!
No I have no deck list with the combo because it's banned. You can try it yourself or you can search for older decks in here or on magicplayer.org. (And just because I've played Oath 500 times with Iona since release, it doesn't mean that I've played 500 games with Buried Alive.)
Quote from: Tiggupiru on 15-04-2010, 09:38:35 AM
I try to, but I still can't. It just seems to be so inconsistent. And even if it was not, I would not agree with it.
I think I could accept it, if there were some consistency, but there hasn't been. I still would not like it as the deck I've been toying with just seems loose and something I would not take on to a tournament, because the random nature of the format requires you to have consistent combo that is not easily disrupted. Otherwise aggro will run over you and even your good matchups will pack several cards that are capable of destroying the combo. Effectively, making you jump through several hoops and giving opponents time to execute their own game plan. Not to mention prebanning a card that has seen no tournament top 8 play (excluding when being played without combo in a reanimator), is something I am really unsure about.
Well then I understand, finally! I guess you're never going to find out then. If you didn't play it back then or played against it, then there's really no way of showing it all to you. Sorry