1st. of April 2010 - New HL bans

[Sturmgott]

[...] if Gifts would get banned, Loam probably never is going to be a problem to anybody.

Intuition does this at least equally good. With Birds/Elves/etc it can even be played at the EOT 2.

[malz77]

Buried Alive should be unbanned for this very same reason.

always remeber: with buried alive and kiki-jiki we will create the fastest combo in the format. therefore we banned kiki in the past but the community wanted it back. so we banned buried alive...

[Tiggupiru]

[...] if Gifts would get banned, Loam probably never is going to be a problem to anybody.

Intuition does this at least equally good. With Birds/Elves/etc it can even be played at the EOT 2.

This is true, but grabbing loam and three lands is just one of the functions Gifts Ungiven has. More often it gets specific answer to current board situation or some combo to win the game if you seem to have time to execute it. Intuition is unable to provide that kind of versatility in this format and it is reduced to act as a bit of a clunky tutor. Intuition into Loam and two cyclelands is powerful, but when you need to provide answers to specific threat, Intuition is not nearly as reliable as Gifts.

I don't consider Gifts into Loam a problem and Intuition into Loam is somewhat worse. Either way, seems that Loam is not that big of a culprit when you take out Gifts and Intuition out of the equation (though I don't think Intuition needs to go). When you are forced to use several cards to find cyclelands and Loam, the combo is not nearly as good.

Buried Alive should be unbanned for this very same reason.

always remeber: with buried alive and kiki-jiki we will create the fastest combo in the format. therefore we banned kiki in the past but the community wanted it back. so we banned buried alive...

While fast, it's fragile. You need to dodge plethora of cards to execute you combo, and drawing one the creatures into your hand requires you to find another combo piece.

It would be really interesting to see the decklist council had for this combo (pretty please), and throw a couple of "ordinary" decks at it, just to see if Buried Alive really is a boogeyman that needs to be in the banned realms.

[malz77]

and drawing one the creatures into your hand requires you to find another combo piece.

not realy. Just think of Cards like Careful Study, Brainstorm, Insidious Dreams, Lat-Nam's Legacy, the Dredge Cards, Breakthrough ... you will run a bunch of this cards

[Tiggupiru]

and drawing one the creatures into your hand requires you to find another combo piece.

not realy. Just think of Cards like Careful Study, Brainstorm, Insidious Dreams, Lat-Nam's Legacy, the Dredge Cards, Breakthrough ... you will run a bunch of this cards

Yes, but you still kinda need to draw one of those.

[so_not]

and drawing one the creatures into your hand requires you to find another combo piece.

not realy. Just think of Cards like Careful Study, Brainstorm, Insidious Dreams, Lat-Nam's Legacy, the Dredge Cards, Breakthrough ... you will run a bunch of this cards

Yes, but you still kinda need to draw one of those.

+Dredge really doesn't help you and some of those cards are pretty awkward. Also when you you have to setup your combo with those (or even better cards), the opponent has more time to react and disrupt you so the combo isn't that fast or dangerous any more. If your opinion is that Buried Alive should be banned even if every time one of the combo pieces is in your hand, then wouldn't Intuition deserve the same fate?

[Kristian]

This thread made me think of this classic:
http://redwing.hutman.net/~mreed/index.htm

[Kassow-Rossing]

I still don't think Oath should be on the watch list untill we see it abused. The fact that creatures are slowly getting stronger and stronger should not force Oath to the watch list. Put it on the watch list when there's a creature too strong out there. Iona is the most dangerous out there for a casual format, but she's not strong enough still.

I see your point and acknowledge that you might be right. But riddle me this, why is Sneak Attack on the watch list? I understand if neither card is in there, but out of the two, why sneak attack?

Besides, people here seem to underestimate Iona. The ability is pretty ridiculous and while I am probably overestimating her (I have a tendency to do that), you are definitely underestimating her.

Please.. I've played Iona from day one in my Oath deck and it's been more than 500 games so far. I know EXACTLY her up's and down's! I understand the fact that you're maybe overestimating her, but that doesn't make me underestimate her. That's just stupid! Of all the people who play Highlander, I think I'm the one who've had Iona on the Battlefield the most since it's release to be honest.

I can't tell you why Sneak Attack is on the watch list. That is also just looks plain stupid to me. It's a cookie card and we haven't seen anything better than Nicol Bolas and Dragon Tyrant yet (The three Eldrazi titans is maybe better but they're not nearly strong enough to force Sneak Attack into banning). I hope there's a better reason, but I cannot explain why Sneak Attack is on the watch list as of 15.April

[Kassow-Rossing]

And well to the Kiki-Jiki combo Buried Alive:
As the council tells us. The combo is a too fast and dangerous. Will be boring to play with and against.

Kiki-Jiki is the most fun and less overpowered of the two, so it should stay. Buried can be abused in many ways. Kiki-Jiki is just a cool card for FIVE mana lets you combo. Can also be used on a casual level for anything else. Buried is just always bad for a format.

So Kiki got unbanned, Buried got banned. Everybody should be happy because it can't be any other way.

[Tiggupiru]

Please.. I've played Iona from day one in my Oath deck and it's been more than 500 games so far. I know EXACTLY her up's and down's! I understand the fact that you're maybe overestimating her, but that doesn't make me underestimate her. That's just stupid! Of all the people who play Highlander, I think I'm the one who've had Iona on the Battlefield the most since it's release to be honest.

I am sorry, I didn't know you have played 5000 games with her! How stupid of me. I understand that makes you qualified to tell EXACTLY how powerful (or powerless) the card really is.

And well to the Kiki-Jiki combo Buried Alive:
As the council tells us. The combo is a too fast and dangerous. Will be boring to play with and against.

Kiki-Jiki is the most fun and less overpowered of the two, so it should stay. Buried can be abused in many ways. Kiki-Jiki is just a cool card for FIVE mana lets you combo. Can also be used on a casual level for anything else. Buried is just always bad for a format.

So Kiki got unbanned, Buried got banned. Everybody should be happy because it can't be any other way.

Well, do YOU have a decklist with that combo? I promise to shut up about the matter and acknowledge that I was wrong, if somebody presents a solid list that indicates how broken Buried Alive really is.

[derStefan82]

Your speaking from Iona in Oath decks (where she is not powerfull because it's random topdeck). In most cases
you want to topdeck a fast finisher which is maybe one of the new Eldrazis or Progenitus.
In decks which search for a solution like reanimator, (pre ban survival), .... Iona is stupid good.

[Nastaboi]

I am also curious seeing a winning decklist with Buried Alive. How many tournament wins/top8 placings the combo had before it got banned?

[meteora]

I am also curious seeing a winning decklist with Buried Alive. How many tournament wins/top8 placings the combo had before it got banned?

Buried Alive should be unbanned for this very same reason.

always remeber: with buried alive and kiki-jiki we will create the fastest combo in the format. therefore we banned kiki in the past but the community wanted it back. so we banned buried alive...

Any open questions?

[Nastaboi]

Yes. Was that combo ever played in a tournament, has it won, or even made top8 ever?

[Drexlin]

Still, especially now with Iona's printing, Survival and Entomb were pretty much necessary bans.

This is exactly the kind of thinking that gets us into these discussions.
"Uh-oh, there's a new card that makes X, Y, and Z broken! We should ban X, Y and Z."

WRONG! Ban the new card! If everyone has such a problem with Iona, ban her! Why ban multiple cards when you can just ban one?

Now, don't get me wrong, I agree with the banning of Survival and Entomb, I'm just using this as an example. (Sorry to pick on you, Dreamer )

And well to the Kiki-Jiki combo Buried Alive:
As the council tells us. The combo is a too fast and dangerous. Will be boring to play with and against.

Kiki-Jiki is the most fun and less overpowered of the two, so it should stay. Buried can be abused in many ways. Kiki-Jiki is just a cool card for FIVE mana lets you combo. Can also be used on a casual level for anything else. Buried is just always bad for a format.

So Kiki got unbanned, Buried got banned. Everybody should be happy because it can't be any other way.

The combo isn't Buried Alive/Kiki, it's Kiki/Pestermite and the combo still exists! Doesn't anyone else see this?

IMHO, there is no reason why Buried Alive should be banned.