http://www.magicplayer.org/forum/index.php?topic=724.msg6695#new
Well, gifts is a no surprise. It has been on the edge of being banned for a long time now, although i was a in favour of not banning it, i can understand. Its a game turning card.
Trinisphere: ABout time, to test this one! :P
Wheel of fortune: bit more dangerous that time twister, mainly because of 1) aggro, 2) availability/price
Please don't band SDT! :)
comment and discuss
I disagree with their conclusions on Gifts and Loam. It look's fine with the rest.
I like the list a lot overall, with some objections/notes:
1. Imperial Seal's price tag :'( (On that matter, ban Portal please. I hate when deckbuilding decisions are done by wallet)
2. Pod. You took my Survival already, you'll have to pry my Pod from my cold, dead fingers.
3. Loam could've been just straight up unbanned, IMHO. Still, unban watchlist is the second most correct place for it to be.
4. Top: The only thing that makes me want to keep top (instead of being utterly indifferent whether or not it is in the format) is Trinket Mage. Top is a huge reason to run him, and I like him.
I really don't like the banning of Gifts Ungiven and can't really follow the reasoning, but it's going to be banned this month and I have to deal with it, so whatever. It's unquestionable a powerhouse, but the discussion about banning / unbanning Gifts Ungiven wasn't so ambivalent for no reason... cya, old friend!
However, if only Stoneforge Mystic would have to go with Gifts. This way, there would be at least one thing I could be happy about this banning season, but this pesky, undercosted resource devourer may stay and even got stronger IMO since you now can't tutor for a solution to it via Gifts anymore. =(
Unbannings look cool, even though there is nothing special that really is of interest for me.
At any rate, I'm glad Life from the Loam stayed on the unban watchlist - good job in this case. =)
I see nothing but good changes made today. Gifts Ungiven was starting to be really annoying when it was being resolved. If your opponent did it, you wish that there were something for you to do while your opponent started pulling cards from their deck. In casual games you could always go do something else, but in a tournament there were nowhere to hide. I happily ran my Gifts into counterspells when playing on a kitchen table, just so that the game would not go into a complete halt for a few minutes. Unfun and too powerful.
And those say that 'unfun' is not a criteria enough to warrant a spot on the banned list, why it would not be? This is a casual format, so we play this just because it's fun. Wizards recently banned cards like Bitterblossom, Valakut and Jace from Modern completely ignoring the powerlevel just because players were sick and tired of seeing them. Magic is a hobby (for most of us anyway) and if it's not fun, why would anyone play it?
Continuing with the theme, I suspect Trinisphere not being a problem in that regard. HL is a mana hungry format, so it's unlikely to completely lock anyone out of the game. Mulligan also makes this less of an issue. And if I were to be proven wrong, I hope council will see 'unfun' as a reason enough to ban it.
Wheel I like. It gives deckbuilders something to chew on, and if Jar was not proven problematic, I doubt this one will be any different.
Adding Stoneforge to the watchlist is a safe and wise move. If it manages to stay dominant, I rather see it banned as soon as possible. Furthermore, I applaud the decision of listing Birthing Pod here. I've begun to notice my inability to lose a game where I can activate Pod more than twice. The same goes another way: I don't remember ever winning against an active pod. It's also a very reasonable colorless card. Taking 8 damage from it in a monored Goblin-deck is quite the bargain for the sick advantage it brings to the table.
Unban watchlist seems quite saucy at the moment. Very exiting times. At a first glance, LED looks to be the most powerful of those, and I would be wary of unbanning it, although I was really afraid of the Memory Jar, so what do I know? :)
I just hope Imperial Seal is proven to be too powerful. Even if it gets unbanned, I don't plan on ever obtaining it, so my black decks would just be non-optimal from that point forward.
In any case, thank you council and keep up the good work.
@tiggupiru, the problem is the definition of unfun, it's a very subjective thing, and we can't just start banning things just because we think it's unfun. Especially if you take in account this a 1 in a 100 format instead of 4 in 60, where you will always see card A, B, C in a tournament/match, unlike in our format.
Also i highly doubt that imperial seal will prove to be too powerful, and yes I agree with you, bannign portal III would be nice to avoid these redudant and overly pricey cards.
Taking both pod and SOFT seems a bit harsh, IMO. Let one live, at least...
In regards of LFTL, i think that the meta could benefit from a bit more graveyard interaction, because right now, i believe there isn't much going on in that area... Although you still can go intuition -> LFTL + wasteland + cycle land.
Quote from: Mythrandir on 01-10-2011, 02:22:04 PM
@tiggupiru, the problem is the definition of unfun, it's a very subjective thing, and we can't just start banning things just because we think it's unfun.
Clear majority of the players I've talked with consider Gifts a very obnoxious card. I personally feel that general consensus is that it's not wanted.
I don't see how this differs too much from the usual banning decisions. Each member of the council have their personal opinions about a card and whether it is too powerful. They also take account of the players opinions (at least, I hope :)) and base their decision around that. Top8's are the only data council has about the powerlevels of a card, and in HL, that is far from definitive. Like you pointed out, it's just one card out of a hundred and if someone can't afford it, they can still do fine in a tournament as they would have drawn it in about every other match.
Let's say for example that you don't have access to Demonic Tutor and replace it with a Rhystic Tutor right before the tournament. Even if you lose every time you draw the Rhystic because it isn't a Demonic, you can still go undefeated in the tournament, if the rest of your deck is good.
Quote from: Mythrandir on 01-10-2011, 02:22:04 PMEspecially if you take in account this a 1 in a 100 format instead of 4 in 60, where you will always see card A, B, C in a tournament/match, unlike in our format.
This is a bad argument. It's not okay to unban Sol Ring just because it's not going to ruin
every game.
GU was one of the last skill intensive and interesting cards in the format. I don't agree with this banning. If you watch the thread about the most played cards is not even in 3/8 top 8 decks as far as i remember (in different tournaments).
Stoneforge belongs to the bl, but i alrdy pointed that out million of times. Statistics proof that, fun factors proof that, powerlevel proof that and other formats proof that.
I still think trinishphere belongs to the bl but time will tell now in a new enviroment.
Rest looks fine.
well i like that gifts finally got banned (about this card testing skill, it just doesnt: if you're not complete noob you will get unfair advantage and if you are then it doesn't matter), and hoping loam will get unbanned.
I completely don't agree with reasons for unbanning wheel of fortune: you cannot compare red spell that gives card advantage which isn't hard to get with blue card advantage spell which is very hard to get and costs too much (hence most of the people who would like to play or test with it are unable to, at least in finland that is so). But maybe it's not so bad and won't break the aggro decks, ti,e will tell.
On imperial seal: it would really suck if this were unbanned, because it's not necessarily weaker than demonic tutor, since you can play it t1 to get your best 2 drop (confidant,mystic, sylvan library and some other) which would mean that after unbanning it every good t2 play should be banned, because they will be much more consistent (imagine opponent getting t2 mystic twice as often as he should).
On price barrier: actually i like this very much and think that it should be enforced instead of weakened. In addition to aforementioned reasons i want to say that many people just won't play with suboptimal decks (some cannot be played like dredge without bazaar of the baghdad and artifact deck without mishra's workshop). Second reason is that these rare cards will be used only in highlander (as oppose to duals and other HL staples which coincidentally are legacy or modern staples) so people are quite reluctant to get them. I claim that there should be more artiact decks around with banning of workshop and more dredge type decks without bazaar.
P.S. I actually haven't heard anywhere that people would complain about those pricey cards like imperial seal or p9 being banned. While there were quite often complaints about turn 1 workshop or bazaar.
I really like that council is considering unbanning cards that may give rise to combo decks, since HL doesn't have combo goodstuff decks like bant and such run amock and need some answers (which control seems unable to provide).
P.P.S. I hope that cards on unban watchlist (except imperial seal) will get unbanned, but in addition to those is dread return really banworthy: we now have unburial rites which works as reanimation target and i don't feel that dread return is as broken as it may have been.
Quote from: TiggupiruClear majority of the players I've talked with consider Gifts a very obnoxious card. I personally feel that general consensus is that it's not wanted.
Believe it or not, but there are other local communities and player groups spread out all over Germany (can't say for other countries as I don't know much about HL communities there) and these 'might' have a slightly different opinion about Gifts Ungiven.
I really think it's kind of cocky to assume that there is a general consensus only because you feel like it.
The term "unfun" is of subjective nature, so I can understand you being excessively happy that the GU ban fits perfectly into yours and your people's mindset of Highlander play, but there are still differently thinking players and IMO one can't speak of a "correct" decision regarding Gifts Ungiven.
Banned lists are created with tournament environment in mind. Local playgroups can always use their own lists of allowed cards.
We know that some people will disagree with the banning but hey, you have to be able to make decisions even when not being able to please everybody.
Quote from: Doks on 01-10-2011, 09:19:02 PM
Quote from: TiggupiruClear majority of the players I've talked with consider Gifts a very obnoxious card. I personally feel that general consensus is that it's not wanted.
Believe it or not, but there are other local communities and player groups spread out all over Germany and these 'might' have a slightly different opinion about Gifts Ungiven.
Yes, and they most likely have expressed their feelings in somewhere where it's hopefully being observed by a representative of the council. In any way I've not claimed that this isn't just my opinion. This is the reason why there are so many people responsible for the banned list. There are so many opinions out there, and you can logistically represent only a small number of people.
Quote from: Doks on 01-10-2011, 09:19:02 PMI really think it's kind of cocky to assume that there is a general consensus only because you feel like it.
Well, no. This is exactly how humans perceive opinions. I've not heard many players trying to defend Gifts, while I've heard many times how annoying and powerful it is. I also don't like the card, and thus I've formed my educated opinion about Gifts Ungiven. To me, you are a minority in this case.
Quote from: Doks on 01-10-2011, 09:19:02 PMThe term "unfun" is of subjective nature, so I can understand you being excessively happy that the GU ban fits perfectly into yours and your people's mindset of Highlander play, but there are still differently thinking players and IMO one can't speak of a "correct" decision regarding Gifts Ungiven.
There never is the one true correct opinion about anything. The next best thing is just going with the majority, and I think that is exactly what happened here. Like Nastaboi said, you just can't please everybody.
QuoteThis is a bad argument. It's not okay to unban Sol Ring just because it's not going to ruin every game.
It is a valid argument, consider mental misteep (or any other of the recent bannins of the DCI B&R list, do you think it's ban worthy in 1 in a 100? Of course sol ring is also 1 in a 100, but that card is probably one of the most powerful cards ever. Of course ancestral recall is also 1 in a 100... Please don't compare things that aren't comparable. There will always be cards banned in 4x in 60 formats that in our format don't feel necessary to being ban!
And what Nastaboi said: "but hey, you have to be able to make decisions even when not being able to please everybody."
I've always supported the councils decison, I may not agree with all of them, but we do have to have a ban list, so...
Quote from: Mythrandir on 01-10-2011, 10:06:10 PM
QuoteThis is a bad argument. It's not okay to unban Sol Ring just because it's not going to ruin every game.
It is a valid argument, consider mental misteep (or any other of the recent bannins of the DCI B&R list, do you think it's ban worthy in 1 in a 100? Of course sol ring is also 1 in a 100, but that card is probably one of the most powerful cards ever. Of course ancestral recall is also 1 in a 100... Please don't compare things that aren't comparable.
These are comparable. Power and 'unfun' go hand in hand. See below.
Quote from: Mythrandir on 01-10-2011, 10:06:10 PMThere will always be cards banned in 4x in 60 formats that in our format don't feel necessary to being ban!
I have no objection to this.
Do I feel like Valakut should be banned in HL? No, I don't. Why? Because it sees virtually no play. I hated the deck in standard, but in HL I've yet to encounter it. If someone would play it, I think it would make an interesting game situations in HL. If it would start to dominate, my opinion might change.
Just like you said, the format matters: Powerlevel of a card is dependable of the format it is in. How much fun a card is to play is also dependent of the format it is in.
Consider a card like Scrambleverse. I would get a laugh from it the first couple of times, but after a while it would get really annoying. It's a pain to resolve and it takes time. Just like Gifts. Now, Scrambleverse is just a bad card. No need to play it because of obvious reasons. This is why I don't think it deserves to get banned, no matter how annoying the card is to play against, there just isn't a reason to ban a card if nobody (or even a small minority) is playing it.
Why people hated Bitterblossom, Stoneforge and Jace, TMS? Because they warped the metagame, and you pretty much needed to play those cards, or you would just play an inferior deck. In other words, they were extremely powerful. Notice the trend?
Do I feel like Gifts should have been banned purely because of it's powerlevel? Maybe and maybe not. It's very close, and I think the answer might be yes, but I am not entirely sure. The thing that tips the scale for me, is the fact it was pain to resolve and even more pain to watch, and people were playing it in numbers.
I feel the unbanning of Wheel of Fortune is awesome. The card is relatively "bad" in all those bomb heavy 5c piles that need some time to establish mana and resolve their high casting cost cards but will shine in combo and real aggro decks which I believe need a push.
Life from the Loam is a very scary card. I remember the oath loam control vs survival meta and I did not like it. I fear there will be a lot of bullshitting about losing to Loam once the card might get unbanned like it has been now with Gifts ungiven.
I agree on Stoneforge Mystic moving towards a ban. I will be happy once he is gone in January. I urge the council not to unban 200€ cards (Imperial Seal)that are highly splashable. Not owning a Ravages of War always stops me from playing Zoo because I can not stand it to play such a suboptimal list for big prizes and a highly splashable and powerful tutor would really annoy me writing a deck list. I think it is a proper compromise to keep the expansive cards already in the format without a use outside of vintage in the format (Timetwister, Ravages, Bazaar, Workshop) but not introduce new ones via unbans.
On a side note I think a discussion about a "Modern" layout of Highlander starting with (Masques and 7th ed. for example) (with banned fetchlands and some power level bannings I guess) as an alternate and cheaper Highlander format would be very interesting. Would people like that? It could be argued that such a format would be better to grow new(er) communities.
I really had not expected hoped that Gifts Ungiven wouldn't be banned because it's one of the few cards which truly require skill to be devastating. Additionally Gifts Ungiven is one of the best cards in a control deck, of course it's played in a lot of different decks because of the really nice casting costs, but control decks are hurt the most. Gifts Ungiven is one of most polarizing cards in Highlander and usually the decisions of the council are good for our format, so we should wait and see in which direction the format will develop.
The rest of the looks very fine to me and I like to see so much combo stuff on the Unban-Watch list. I also do like the fact that neither Mana Drain nor Demonic Tutor are on the Watchlist. These two cards can be extremely strong, but they are also two reasons that control decks are playable. When it comes to Imperial Seal I really don't understand the discussion about the price. In my opinion the price should NEVER be a reason to ban or unban a card. If you want to play it you have to buy it (I don't own one and I'm not sure whether I would buy one if it was unbanned or not). Magic is an expensive hobby and there shouldn't be something like an unnatural limitation of the price a card can have to be legal in Highlander, because not even the council should be able to decide how much someone spends for cards. Somebody wrote that the Seal is highly splashable - I don't think so because one has to play it in the first few turns to unleash its full potential and that's more difficult if black is just a splash.
Moving Stoneforge Mystic to the Watchlist is a very nice move. Right now this card is one of the most annoying cards in the format; it's nearly always the same: Play Stoneforge search for Batterskull and hope that Stoneforge survives until one can sneak Batterskol onto the Battlefield.
Quote from: haju on 04-10-2011, 02:48:08 PM
In my opinion the price should NEVER be a reason to ban or unban a card. If you want to play it you have to buy it (I don't own one and I'm not sure whether I would buy one if it was unbanned of not). Magic is an expensive hobby and there shouldn't be something like an unnatural limitation of the price a card can have to be legal in Highlander, because not even the council should be able to decide how much someone spends for cards.
I'm with you here. In an ideal world, monetary value shouldn't be a reason for banning or unbanning. Highlander however, like any other format, stands and falls with its community. Even more so because the number of HL-players is relatively small. High card prices will hinder the growth of any community.
Furthermore, "growth" of community is especially important for small formats like HL. There are several points worth mentioning here. I'll pick three and elaborate on them:
1. HL tournament attendance is quite low. There isn't much of a difference between 100 players attending or 50. The result is, there will be a tournament. Often quite different though with HL. The difference between 30 or 10 players will make or break a tournament.
2. HL rather caters to more mature players. Many of those have responsibilities (work, family and so on). Despite the presence of many diehard-players, HL has a high "drop out" percentage. To make up for this loss of players you have to constantly keep the community growing. So, allowing the community to grow is an integral part of keeping the format alive in the first place.
3. HL has gotten a new contender in Commander. Many young players in our local shop are picking up Commander instead of HL. Having a rival to growth may threaten the very existence of HL in the long run.
Therefore, whenever a decision is made concerning the banned list, the potentially adverse effects on community growth should be factored in.
I feel that the HL council is doing a good job with this so far. Keep up the good work!
If anything, I would have predicted a Top ban before a Gifts ban. Gifts is a one time thing that doesn't *always* win the game. However, Top gives the player with Top such a huge advantage over the player without Top. And the player without Top has to sit there every turn wishing he had a Top, too.
Quote from: Ravager Sam on 05-10-2011, 05:56:47 AM
If anything, I would have predicted a Top ban before a Gifts ban. Gifts is a one time thing that doesn't *always* win the game. However, Top gives the player with Top such a huge advantage over the player without Top. And the player without Top has to sit there every turn wishing he had a Top, too.
I disagree. Gifts turns the tables a lot more and can finish the game a lot more, than a top. Tops is very good early on, but it won't save you from getting killed later on. Gifts has the potential to turn a lost match to a winning one. (although I'dprefer if the two weren unbanned as it were.. :), but that's in th past...)
Quote from: Ravager Sam on 05-10-2011, 05:56:47 AM
However, Top gives the player with Top such a huge advantage over the player without Top. And the player without Top has to sit there every turn wishing he had a Top, too.
That's right, but you could insert the name of nearly every Planeswalker here and it would be right too. If I use the second ability of Jace, the Mindsculptor every turn you wish you would have a Jace, the Mindsculptor on your side of the table.
@Card prices: High card prices are hindering the growth right now: My brother is trying to build a deck, he knows that it'll be far from optimal if he doesn't spend a huge amount of money - and I'm not talking about a four or five color good stuff deck. I don't think that one, two or even ten very expensive cards will hinder someone to start with highlander it's the amount you have to pay to build your first deck. I'm not sure what's the right way to get the community growing but making it easier (read cheaper) wouldn't be the wrong way. Of course there is no way to control card prices, but if one can't prevent this by banning some cards one shouldn't ban some few cards because they are more expensive than other. I think there are lots of players never attending tournaments. I know 4 other players playing Highlander but don't go to Iserlohn or Dülmen (the nearest tournaments) very often, as a matter of time.
Would somebody please update banned list here? http://highlandermagic.info/index.php?id=bannedlist (http://highlandermagic.info/index.php?id=bannedlist). We are going to have annual Mtg.sk cup (16.10. Bratislava), which is attended by many players out of HL format and it would be nice to be able to show them banned list at one place. Thanks a lot.
Yes, give it some time. I've messaged the webmaster (derStefan82) about this.
Quote from: haju on 05-10-2011, 06:40:47 PM
Quote from: Ravager Sam on 05-10-2011, 05:56:47 AM
However, Top gives the player with Top such a huge advantage over the player without Top. And the player without Top has to sit there every turn wishing he had a Top, too.
That's right, but you could insert the name of nearly every Planeswalker here and it would be right too. If I use the second ability of Jace, the Mindsculptor every turn you wish you would have a Jace, the Mindsculptor on your side of the table.
Top costs 1 and can't really be answered effectively. Jace is a bit different in this aspect costing 4 (with 2 blue) and dies to more types of removal more easily (nonetheless attacking).
@ Mythrandir - I certainly agree with you on the power of Gifts Ungiven - no doubt there. But top is also extremely powerful and I feel it has more power late game then you're giving it credit for. In my experiences, it's also just been SO much easier to beat an opponent without early top than it is to beat someone with early top.
Quote@ Mythrandir - I certainly agree with you on the power of Gifts Ungiven - no doubt there. But top is also extremely powerful and I feel it has more power late game then you're giving it credit for. In my experiences, it's also just been SO much easier to beat an opponent without early top than it is to beat someone with early top.
I agree with you: TOP is an incredible card, but if you're screw/losing, top won't save your life, or at least won't save it very differently from, let's say a brainstorm... Gifts has the potential to win you the game on the spot, or at least save your neck for a couple more turns...
Anyways, not bashing TOP, love it, and hope it stays unbanned! :)
Quote from: Mythrandir on 07-10-2011, 04:32:34 PM
Quote@ Mythrandir - I certainly agree with you on the power of Gifts Ungiven - no doubt there. But top is also extremely powerful and I feel it has more power late game then you're giving it credit for. In my experiences, it's also just been SO much easier to beat an opponent without early top than it is to beat someone with early top.
I agree with you: TOP is an incredible card, but if you're screw/losing, top won't save your life, or at least won't save it very differently from, let's say a brainstorm... Gifts has the potential to win you the game on the spot, or at least save your neck for a couple more turns...
Anyways, not bashing TOP, love it, and hope it stays unbanned! :)
Yeah, in some situations Top's just doing a whole lot of nothing for ya. But at the same time, that means there isn't very much that in general that would be helpful.
Two memories:
In one game, I was playing against zoo/aggro (I was on UWB control) - he had t2 sylvan library and it just didn't matter. I Wrathed early, and then Vindicated his follow-up Goyf and the library was irrelevant. Sure Library =/= Top, but it's the same idea. The point was even the ability to draw extra cards and chose between 3 cards to draw each turn, it wasn't enough to even make it a close game.
In another game I played the UW control mirror match. Literally, my opponent had early Top & that was the only thing that kept him in the game. I had a much better list with better cards, but his ability to hit threats more often was extremely helpful to him. After an hour, neither of us had any non-land permanents out and the life total was like 9 to 13, so we never actually finished that game (time was called). We were actively getting nowhere fast, and he was going to win soon, but I cast Gifts Ungiven in one of the final turns. :)
Gifts ungiven
The most broken way how to use this card is in reanimator deck where really does not matter whether the cards are in grave or on hand. The second broken way is to search for Recall + three same cards. Its direct power level when comparing to manacost is OK, but the way how the card can be broken is really dangerous.
Sensei's divining top
I know only two combos for this card. Countertop (with counterbalance) and second with Futuresight, ethereal sculptor, Brainfreeze (other storm card). In the second case the deck has to be build around the combo and its not as effective as other blue combos I have tried. When used standalone the Top needs a lot of shuffling effects. This increases its effectivity. Many people use the digging ability every turn, sometimes more than once even when the deck was not reshuffled.
Without shuffling it does not much. You just get information about one new card on top of the library. The fact that there is no good response against it means only that people are pissed off because they cannot destroy it. Top itself has an positive impact on game and card as they come, but cannot do miracles. The Scroll rack can do much more...
Trinisphere
I like the unbanning. Generally it will have positive impact on our local meta which has 90 percent of aggro decks.