Highlander Magic

So, I recently caught up with this format and this is something I came up with;
// Mana
// Counting artifacts here too. The offcolor Vivid-land will become the missing dual at some point.
    1 Polluted Delta
    1 Flooded Strand
    1 Windswept Heath
    1 Tropical Island
    1 Underground Sea
    1 Tundra
    1 Savannah
    1 Scrubland
    1 Breeding Pool
    1 Watery Grave
    1 Overgrown Tomb
    1 Terramorphic Expanse
    7 Island
    3 Forest
    2 Plains
    1 Swamp
    1 Vivid Creek
    1 Vivid Grove
    1 Vivid Marsh
    1 Vivid Meadow
    1 Vivid Crag
    1 Golgari Signet
    1 Selesnya Signet
    1 Orzhov Signet
    1 Coalition Relic
    34
// Utility lands
// Two of these counts as a one land, due to colorless mana they produce. I used to have a full set of cycling-lands but gave up on them; Never really needed that much of them.
    1 Lonely Sandbar
    1 Tranquil Thicket
    1 Nantuko Monastery
    1 Wasteland
    1 Volrath's Stronghold
    1 Academy Ruins
    1 Cephalid Coliseum
    7

// Critters
// Utilities. Not sure about the Hedge-Mage, it should become better when I reach full dual and shock dual count. Jotun Grunt and Loaming Shaman are the only things I've got as a gravehate, they've been enough so far.
    1 Wall of Roots
    1 Dark Confidant
    1 Jotun Grunt
    1 Trygon Predator
    1 Hag Hedge-Mage
    1 Loaming Shaman
    1 Eternal Witness
    1 Yavimaya Elder
    1 Plumeveil
    1 Mystic Snake
// Beaters
// I've been mostly playing multiplayer games, hence Multani and SSS. Is there anything better? I tried Eternal Dragon but its just too clunky(and too small :o).
    1 Tarmogoyf
    1 Spawnwrithe
    1 Overbeing of Myth
    1 Multani, Maro-Sorcerer
    1 Exalted Angel
    1 Simic Sky Swallower
// More utilities
    1 Wonder
    1 Genesis
    18

// Random stuff
    1 Sword of Fire and Ice
    1 Sword of Light and Shadow
    1 Grafted Wargear
    1 Ajani Goldmane
    4

// Can you dig it?
// This should be okay, aight?
    1 Sensei's Divining Top
    1 Brainstorm
    1 Ponder
    1 Life from the Loam
    1 Demonic Tutor
    1 Regrowth
    1 Recollect
    1 Thirst for Knowledge
    1 Intuition
    1 Jace Beleren
    1 Fact or Fiction
    1 Gifts Ungiven
    12

// The wizard says no
// Undermine and Absorb seems quite suboptimal, is there anything better? Mana Drain wont do it, as I wont get one just for this deck.
    1 Stifle
    1 Daze
    1 Mana Leak
    1 Evasive Action
    1 Counterspell
    1 Forbid
    1 Dissipate
    1 Voidslime
    1 Undermine
    1 Absorb
    1 Force of Will
    1 Misdirection
    12

// Remove something concrete, as by lifting, pushing, or taking off.
// I've been going back and forth with Ghastly Demise and Smother, should I run both?
    1 Engineered Explosives
    1 Ghastly Demise
    1 Swords to Plowshares
    1 Echoing Truth
    1 Chainer's Edict
    1 Rushing River
    1 Krosan Grip
    1 Putrefy
    1 Pernicious Deed
    1 Oblivion Ring
    1 Vindicate
    1 Mortify
    1 Crime 'n Punishment
    13
How to make it any better is beyond my knowledge. Maybe you guys could help me?
My small meta has developed into; 4c Survival, UBw control, UWg Control, Zombie Tribal and MUC.

I've got some ideas but don't know what to do with them;
More mass removal; Nevvy's Disk? Is Plague Boiler playable?
More two mana counters; Remand is the only one that comes into my mind besides Mana Drain.
An efficient finisher; Will SSS do it? Should I play Aeon Chronicler? Grave-Shell Scarab? How about Etched Oracle, a Recall for a colorless mana is tempting, its also recurrable via both; Ruins and Stronghold.
Loam on the watchlist; I do hope I don't have to play Tilling Treefolk. :P

Also, anyone who's up for a few games via MWS; feel free to add me to a messenger of your choice.

--VRk

You call this build UGwb Gifts/Loam but I am not sure if it delivers quite the kick to earn that name. Has the loam engine won you any games? To me it seems like a starting shell for 4c-wins, something similar Nikolas Labahn won (http://www.magicuniverse.de/html/kolumnen.php?id=777) the GP-4 (http://www.magicuniverse.de/html/kolumnen.php?id=761) with.

On the other glance, your creature base seems (Genesis, Wonder... -> Patrick Richters UG(wb) (http://www.magicuniverse.de/html/kolumnen.php?id=777)) that with little tweaks, you could turn this baby with little effort into survival as well.

Now the deck kinda isn't neither. But if those 2 decklists don't offer any ideas, I do have some suggestions for that Loam/Gifts concept of yours if you want to pursue it. Your meta seems to lean heavily on control so you might want to try the only good retrace card, Raven's Crime against them. At least Nastaboi have had good experience of that one.

Other marginal retrace you _may_ want to toy around is Worm Harvest, but only if you take this build heavily into loam direction...

Against that ZombieTribal I'd definetely try Solitary Confinement as a silver bullet once you have your Loam/cycling-land engine going: my playgroup has good experience of that card against various aggros. It has been also a standard solution with Loam.

Some suboptimal cards I'd also cut from your list:
Lands:
Terramorphic Expanse, Vivid lands (Or do they actually work in your build, as I'd try first Gemstone Mine, Reflecting Pool and Tithe as fixers). And yeah, get that Bayou.

I see that you have Signets as artifact mana source in your deck to gain tempo/get around Blood Moon: My personal preference over those are the Talismans (Talisman of Progress etc). but this may work for you just fine.

The utility lands section misses Karakas, Maze of Ith and Flagstone of Trokair, something which I nearly always play in tandem with Crop Rotation. Especially if the mana base is OK and space permits more utility lands. I'd say you could very well experiment your build into this direction.

Critters:

Looks OK. That Hedge-Mage is interesting, has it worked for you? Duergar Hedge-Mage has been a bomb in my testing but builds have been more aggroish. Loaming Shaman at least in my grave-intensive meta wreaks havoc everytime it hits the board. But cut that Plumeveil. What does it do? You mentioned Etched Oracle: yeah, play that.

Beaters:

Now, this looks little bit controversial: Exalted Angel and Tarmogoyd are no-brainers in my books, but the rest of the creatures? I've always been the proponent of utility creatures in form of Shriekmaw and Venser, Shaper Savant (which comboes with Karakas OK). If you take a look at that Labahn's list I linked you previously, you see what I mean. I don't say that big hitters are bad, but in my tests the utility creatures combined with cheap beaters (Tarmogoyd, Exalted Angel) and to the library manipulation spells you already got, yield much more better results.

Random stuff: This is section truly is random. Ajani? For what? Life gain? Try Loxodon Hierarch. If you have access to Garruk or even Liliana, I'd try those any time over Ajani in case my deck has to have a planeswalker.

Also ditch the Sword of Light and Shadow and Grafted Wargear. Leave Sword of Fire and Ice if you must have that one good equipment (also because your meta seems to have blue).

"Can you dig it?"-section looks good otherwise, but we have Jace here. Why?

Permission spells you have packed: I wouldn't play Daze, so replace it with Remand like you suggested. Forbid is a must as you may have noticed: its game locking synergy with Loam & lands is tremendous. Undermine, Absorb and Voidslime are hard to cast from time to time, so maybe Memory Lapse? I can't get any good counters to my mind now.

Last thing: In case you seek to get most kick out of an efficient Loam-engine in HL, I'd say Oath of Druids has tremendous synergy at least according to my experience (http://vaihdetaan.kapsi.fi/forums/index.php?topic=31521.msg176182#msg176182). <-- Loam with Oath (modified Frank Topel's version) won me couple of games in that tournament. But in case you want to better this build in overall, check those two earlier decklists from GP-4 and make the tweaks as you see best.

Quote from: VurkkaAlso, anyone who's up for a few games via MWS; feel free to add me to a messenger of your choice.

Next Saturday we have highlander tournament in Safe Have at Helsinki and a week onward from that on Friday Laava helds a tournament in Herwood (Hervanta). I plan attending to both tournaments. Let me know if you have a chance to participate and we may have a chance to play test games if you want to.

Quote from: pyyhttu on 18-09-2008, 06:25:05 PMTerramorphic Expanse, Vivid lands (Or do they actually work in your build, as I'd try first Gemstone Mine, Reflecting Pool and Tithe as fixers). And yeah, get that Bayou.

Vivid lands has been great. I don't need to rush against control so the CIPT doesn't matter. The four color manabase couldn't hold without them, imo.

Quote from: pyyhttu on 18-09-2008, 06:25:05 PMThe utility lands section misses Karakas, Maze of Ith and Flagstone of Trokair, something which I nearly always play in tandem with Crop Rotation. Especially if the mana base is OK and space permits more utility lands. I'd say you could very well experiment your build into this direction.

I don't own any of those cards. Sounds fun though.

Quote from: pyyhttu on 18-09-2008, 06:25:05 PMLooks OK. That Hedge-Mage is interesting, has it worked for you? Duergar Hedge-Mage has been a bomb in my testing but builds have been more aggroish. Loaming Shaman at least in my grave-intensive meta wreaks havoc everytime it hits the board. But cut that Plumeveil. What does it do? You mentioned Etched Oracle: yeah, play that.

Hedge-Mage has been great, I rarely get to use the discard ability though, its basically Witness #2.

Quote from: pyyhttu on 18-09-2008, 06:25:05 PMAjani? For what? Life gain? Try Loxodon Hierarch. If you have access to Garruk or even Liliana, I'd try those any time over Ajani in case my deck has to have a planeswalker.

I've tried Liliana, but she has been dealt with before she sees another turn, everytime. 3BB; An opponent discards a card doesn't sound too good. Garruk is already on my buylist.
Ajani randomly boosts my utility critters against aggro, I used to have a Decree of Justice here too..
If I'd add Hierarch, I could add Recurring Nightmare and go forth something GiftsRockesque(?).
EDIT; Hierarch, Ravenous Baloth, Recurring Nightmare, Solemn Simulacrum?

Quote from: pyyhttu on 18-09-2008, 06:25:05 PM"Can you dig it?"-section looks good otherwise, but we have Jace here. Why?

1UU; Draw a card, prevent the next combat damage that would be dealt to you. :P
No, really, I can't see a reason why I wouldn't play it.

Quote from: pyyhttu on 18-09-2008, 06:25:05 PMPermission spells you have packed: I wouldn't play Daze, so replace it with Remand like you suggested. Forbid is a must as you may have noticed: its game locking synergy with Loam & lands is tremendous. Undermine, Absorb and Voidslime are hard to cast from time to time, so maybe Memory Lapse? I can't get any good counters to my mind now.

Absorb and Undermine aren't hard to cast, see Vivid lands. But there has to be something better, Faerie Trickery maybe?

Quote from: pyyhttu on 18-09-2008, 06:25:05 PMLast thing: In case you seek to get most kick out of an efficient Loam-engine in HL, I'd say Oath of Druids has tremendous synergy at least according to my experience. <-- Loam with Oath (modified Frank Topel's version) won me couple of games in that tournament. But in case you want to better this build in overall, check those two earlier decklists from GP-4 and make the tweaks as you see best.

Oath is a completelty different deck, I don't want to go that way.. yet.

some points have already been covered:

QuoteThe utility lands section misses Karakas, Maze of Ith and Flagstone of Trokair, something which I nearly always play in tandem with Crop Rotation. Especially if the mana base is OK and space permits more utility lands. I'd say you could very well experiment your build into this direction.
I don't own any of those cards. Sounds fun though.

if u dont own a maze you can add a kor haven (easier to find). also add crop rotation.

QuoteAbsorb and Undermine aren't hard to cast, see Vivid lands. But there has to be something better, Faerie Trickery maybe?

yes, faerie trickery is better, i like voidslime. but undermine and absorb (specially undermine) is quite sub-optimal. i´d prefer dromar charm, more versatile. have you tested glen elendra archmage? i´ve been testing it, and it´s quite good.
put in remand + pact of negation (you can then play with tolaria west for this or engineered explosives). i think cryptic is a bit harsh in terms of mana for you.

QuoteCan you dig it?"-section looks good otherwise, but we have Jace here. Why?

well, i have to disagree.. jace is quite good.. specially if his meta is more control - oriented. jace gives huge card advantage, and acts as a "fog".

why no impulse? or deep analysis? well, u can play oona queen of the fae if u want fatties or teferi since your meta is control oriented..
etched oracle is must have + loxodon.
mystical teachings or personal tutor for the loam?

QuoteNow the deck kinda isn't neither. But if those 2 decklists don't offer any ideas, I do have some suggestions for that Loam/Gifts concept of yours if you want to pursue it. Your meta seems to lean heavily on control so you might want to try the only good retrace card, Raven's Crime against them. At least Nastaboi have had good experience of that one.

retrace cards there seems pretty great. i´ve been trying to test these, but my main problem is aggro (i play 5C control) so there´s no space for them.

cards i would cut:
plumeveil. (etched oracle)
grafte wargear
sword of shadow
ajani (garruk)
ponder (impulse)
daze (remand)
undermine (faerie trickery)
absorb (dromar charm)
ghastly demise (shriekmaw)
echoing truth (venser)

Okay, so far I've made the following changes;
Plumeveil -> Etched Oracle
Multani -> Ravenous Baloth
SSS -> Loxodon Hierarch
Ajani -> Recurring Nightmare
Wargear -> Solemn Simulacrum
Should I edit the opening post for these?

Quote from: Mythrandir on 18-09-2008, 08:29:14 PMhave you tested glen elendra archmage?

Oh my, haven't met that gal before. :o
There are a lot of cards in these new sets that I don't know of(post Ravnica).

Quote from: VuRkkaShould I edit the opening post for these?

Yeah, or better yet: Post the revised list as a new reply to this topic so the RSS picks it up plus others can still compare to the original build and see how it has shapen.

Okay, here's the latest build, changes are couple posts up. I also got that Bayou now, which replaced Vivid Crag.
// Mana
    1 Polluted Delta
    1 Flooded Strand
    1 Windswept Heath
    1 Tropical Island
    1 Underground Sea
    1 Tundra
    1 Savannah
    1 Bayou
    1 Scrubland
    1 Breeding Pool
    1 Watery Grave
    1 Overgrown Tomb
    1 Temple Garden
    1 Godless Shrine
    1 Terramorphic Expanse
    7 Island
    2 Forest
    1 Plains
    1 Swamp
    1 Vivid Creek
    1 Vivid Grove
    1 Vivid Marsh
    1 Vivid Meadow
    1 Golgari Signet
    1 Selesnya Signet
    1 Orzhov Signet
    1 Coalition Relic
    34
// Utility lands
    1 Lonely Sandbar
    1 Tranquil Thicket
    1 Nantuko Monastery
    1 Wasteland
    1 Volrath's Stronghold
    1 Academy Ruins
    1 Cephalid Coliseum
    7

// Critters
    1 Wall of Roots
    1 Dark Confidant
    1 Jotun Grunt
    1 Trygon Predator
    1 Hag Hedge-Mage
    1 Loaming Shaman
    1 Eternal Witness
    1 Yavimaya Elder
    1 Solemn Simulacrum
    1 Mystic Snake
    1 Tarmogoyf
    1 Spawnwrithe
    1 Ravenous Baloth
    1 Loxodon Hierarch
    1 Etched Oracle
    1 Overbeing of Myth
    1 Exalted Angel
    1 Wonder
    1 Genesis
    19

// Equipments
    1 Sword of Fire and Ice
    1 Sword of Light and Shadow
    2

// Can you dig it?
    1 Sensei's Divining Top
    1 Brainstorm
    1 Ponder
    1 Life from the Loam
    1 Demonic Tutor
    1 Regrowth
    1 Recollect
    1 Recurring Nightmare
    1 Thirst for Knowledge
    1 Intuition
    1 Jace Beleren
    1 Fact or Fiction
    1 Gifts Ungiven
    13

// The wizard says no
    1 Stifle
    1 Daze
    1 Mana Leak
    1 Evasive Action
    1 Counterspell
    1 Forbid
    1 Dissipate
    1 Voidslime
    1 Undermine
    1 Absorb
    1 Force of Will
    1 Misdirection
    12

// Remove something concrete, as by lifting, pushing, or taking off.
    1 Engineered Explosives
    1 Ghastly Demise
    1 Swords to Plowshares
    1 Echoing Truth
    1 Chainer's Edict
    1 Rushing River
    1 Krosan Grip
    1 Putrefy
    1 Pernicious Deed
    1 Oblivion Ring
    1 Vindicate
    1 Mortify
    1 Crime 'n Punishment
    13
Remand will replace Daze.

Bant Charm?
Willbender?
Glen Elendra Archmage?
Garruk?

It looks better now. Final tweak I'd do:

Add the 2 missing fetchlands and cut a couple of vivids: 1 point life loss with shuffle-effect but then  giving access to any color of mana is better than "comes into play tapped land that will eat your tempo". Divining Top, Loam and, say, Ghastly Demise would also appreciate that move.

Other, more exotic and newer choices in your deck (Spawnwrithe, Hag-Hedge Mage) look very interesting and would love to hear how they work in your meta.

That's all I have to offer at this point, your tests will tell if the deck really performs now better than it used to (it should)!

i still think that u could make some changes:

garruk is a most have, specially if you play baloth.
also i´d trade the undermine over a faerie trickey
and ghastly demise for a shriekmaw since you play volrath stronghold and recurring.

Quote from: pyyhttu on 19-09-2008, 06:09:49 PM
Other, more exotic and newer choices in your deck (Spawnwrithe, Hag-Hedge Mage) look very interesting and would love to hear how they work in your meta.

They work great.
With an active Loam Hedge-Mage is a Witness #2. If it keeps performing nicely I'll throw out Recollect, as the Mage is recurrable via Nightmare and Stronghold.

Spawnwrithe works great if I can protect it for a turn or two(Sofi/Sols, counterspells, whateva). It keeps control under constant pressure by copying itself so they're forced to waste resources to find an answer. Can't really tell much about it, I've managed to resolve it twice.. in a month. Against aggro its usually a win in few turns.

Quote from: Mythrandir on 19-09-2008, 11:45:07 PM
also i´d trade the undermine over a faerie trickey

Why Undermine? Giving 3 lifeloss along with the countering seems better to me than gaining 3 life. Absorb takes the boot as soon as I can find Faerie Trickery somewhere. As soon as Alara comes out, I'll try Bant Charm in the place of Undermine.

Shriekmaw seems to be a no-brainer with your reasoning, why I didn't think of that.

Garruk is going in aswell, as soon as I find a slot for it(See Recollect above in this post).

Quote from: Mythrandir on 19-09-2008, 11:45:07 PM
also i´d trade the undermine over a faerie trickey

Why Undermine? Giving 3 lifeloss along with the countering seems better to me than gaining 3 life. Absorb takes the boot as soon as I can find Faerie Trickery somewhere. As soon as Alara comes out, I'll try Bant Charm in the place of Undermine.

[/quote]

well, ok, you´re meta is a little different that mine, i prefer to gain 3 life since my biggest problem is staying alive vs aggro, thatn to actualy make the my oponenet lose...
as for the bant charm, have u read it correctly? counter target INSTANT.. so it isnt that good... =/ i was looking forward to it, but since it ca only coutner instant.... how about dromar charm?

Quote from: Mythrandir on 20-09-2008, 04:25:09 AMas for the bant charm, have u read it correctly? counter target INSTANT.. so it isnt that good... =/ i was looking forward to it, but since it ca only coutner instant.... how about dromar charm?

I read it correctly. Compared to Dromar's Charm it has 2.5/3 good modulars, while Dromar's has 1/3.

Quote from: VuRkka on 22-09-2008, 04:50:48 AM

Quote from: Mythrandir on 20-09-2008, 04:25:09 AMas for the bant charm, have u read it correctly? counter target INSTANT.. so it isnt that good... =/ i was looking forward to it, but since it ca only coutner instant.... how about dromar charm?

I read it correctly. Compared to Dromar's Charm it has 2.5/3 good modulars, while Dromar's has 1/3.

ok, that´s probably from your experience (and your meta). dromar life gaining has kept me alive inumerous times, plus it is a hard counter, the only ability i dont use that often (but sometimes comes in handy) is the -2/-2. As for the bant i really like the "spot removal" it has, which is way better than -2/-2. as for the artifact destruction i have those in other cards. what really draws me back from the card is the the counter. is too limited. it can NOT counter: creatures, artifacts, enchantments, sorceries, planeswalkers. so, IMO, its is very restrictive.
but once again i understand it may vary due to the meta. since you play mostly against other control decks, the +5 life doenst seem that great.

Quote from: Mythrandir on 22-09-2008, 12:43:37 PM

Quote from: VuRkka on 22-09-2008, 04:50:48 AM

Quote from: Mythrandir on 20-09-2008, 04:25:09 AMas for the bant charm, have u read it correctly? counter target INSTANT.. so it isnt that good... =/ i was looking forward to it, but since it ca only coutner instant.... how about dromar charm?

I read it correctly. Compared to Dromar's Charm it has 2.5/3 good modulars, while Dromar's has 1/3.

ok, that´s probably from your experience (and your meta). dromar life gaining has kept me alive inumerous times, plus it is a hard counter, the only ability i dont use that often (but sometimes comes in handy) is the -2/-2. As for the bant i really like the "spot removal" it has, which is way better than -2/-2. as for the artifact destruction i have those in other cards. what really draws me back from the card is the the counter. is too limited. it can NOT counter: creatures, artifacts, enchantments, sorceries, planeswalkers. so, IMO, its is very restrictive.
but once again i understand it may vary due to the meta. since you play mostly against other control decks, the +5 life doenst seem that great.

I totally agree with Mythrandir....

a) 5 LP is quite useful in a control deck, it saved Mythrandir's life a several times  ::)
b) -2/-2 is a nice spot removal, especially when you play vs. one of the best (still legal) combo-decks "Guilty Stuffy"
c) it's a hard counter !!

I was playing in a tournament today with this deck, results weren't quite what I expected. As you know, I've been mostly playing against control where this deck shines, but the tournament was filled with aggro. Here's a smallish report;

Round 1, RG Beats
G1: Angel flipped on turn four, I gave her a Sword of Light and Shadow, won.
G2: I didn't see or played any blue manasources in this game. Had an opening grip of 2 Forest, Plains, Wasteland, Hierarch, Baloth and Spawnwrithe. Spawnwrithe eventually won me the game.
(yeah pyyhttu, 'twas me next to you.)

Round 2, RB Goblins
G1: Lost to Price of Progress.
G2: Lost to Patriarch's Bidding.
Had I've seen those coming I may have won, both times I had a counter in my hand but no mana open. On game two I've had just Intuitioned for Loam, EE and Academy Ruins. Zo-Zu the Punisher HURTS!

Round 3, Uwb Control
G1: Lost to Sensei's Divining Top + Future Sight shenanigans.
G2: I had the engine up and running. Intuitioned for Loam, Ruins and Etched Oracle, kept beating with it until my opponent was at six life. He played Stuffy Doll which I bounced back to his hand on my turn and beat him down to two. On his turn he replayed the Doll. I didn't have an answer in my hand nor I didn't find one, I drew 12 cards from Cephalid Coliseum and dredged 6 with Loam, still nothing, not even Wonder showed up. On his turn time limit was called and he just played Guilty Conscience.

Round 4, Uwg Mindslaver
G1: Spawnwrithe got Remanded and shortly after countered. I bounced Mirari's Wake once but that didn't help much. Didn't see but 4 lands in this game.
G2: The same as G1, although I played three Signets but they were eaten by Trygon Predator. Intuitioned for Loam, Ruins and EE but I didn't have enough mana to clear the board.

Here's the current list, by the way;

1 Polluted Delta     1 Flooded Strand     1 Windswept Heath     1 Wooded Foothills     1 Bloodstained Mire     1 Tropical Island     1 Underground Sea     1 Tundra     1 Savannah     1 Bayou     1 Scrubland     1 Breeding Pool     1 Watery Grave     1 Hallowed Fountain     1 Temple Garden     1 Overgrown Tomb     1 Godless Shrine     6 Island     3 Forest     2 Plains     2 Swamp     1 Golgari Signet     1 Selesnya Signet     1 Orzhov Signet     1 Coalition Relic     34     1 Lonely Sandbar     1 Tranquil Thicket     1 Nantuko Monastery     1 Wasteland     1 Volrath's Stronghold     1 Academy Ruins     1 Cephalid Coliseum     7

1 Wall of Roots     1 Dark Confidant     1 Jotun Grunt     1 Trygon Predator     1 Hag Hedge-Mage     1 Loaming Shaman     1 Eternal Witness     1 Yavimaya Elder     1 Solemn Simulacrum     1 Mystic Snake     1 Aeon Chronicler     1 Shriekmaw     1 Etched Oracle     1 Tarmogoyf     1 Spawnwrithe     1 Ravenous Baloth     1 Loxodon Hierarch     1 Exalted Angel     1 Wonder     1 Genesis     20     1 Sword of Fire and Ice     1 Sword of Light and Shadow     2

1 Sensei's Divining Top     1 Brainstorm     1 Ponder     1 Life from the Loam     1 Demonic Tutor     1 Regrowth     1 Recollect     1 Recurring Nightmare     1 Thirst for Knowledge     1 Intuition     1 Jace Beleren     1 Fact or Fiction     1 Gifts Ungiven     13     1 Stifle     1 Daze     1 Mana Leak     1 Evasive Action     1 Counterspell     1 Forbid     1 Dissipate     1 Faerie Trickery     1 Voidslime     1 Undermine     1 Absorb     1 Force of Will     1 Misdirection     13

1 Engineered Explosives     1 Swords to Plowshares     1 Echoing Truth     1 Chainer's Edict     1 Rushing River     1 Oblivion Ring     1 Vindicate     1 Mortify     1 Krosan Grip     1 Putrefy     1 Pernicious Deed     11

So in conclusion;
Pact of Negation/Slaughter Pact? Kinda mana free answers, I need them.
Daze/Foil?
WoG/Damnation/Infest? Two of them or all of them?
More mana producing lands? 30 is way too less(not counting utility-lands).
I'm gonna lessen the creature count for more answers to the situations I miserably lost today.

Quote from: VuRkka on 27-09-2008, 12:27:41 AM
I was playing in a tournament today with this deck, results weren't quite what I expected. As you know, I've been mostly playing against control where this deck shines, but the tournament was filled with aggro. Here's a smallish report;

Round 1, RG Beats
G1: Angel flipped on turn four, I gave her a Sword of Light and Shadow, won.
G2: I didn't see or played any blue manasources in this game. Had an opening grip of 2 Forest, Plains, Wasteland, Hierarch, Baloth and Spawnwrithe. Spawnwrithe eventually won me the game.
(yeah pyyhttu, 'twas me next to you.)

Round 2, RB Goblins
G1: Lost to Price of Progress.
G2: Lost to Patriarch's Bidding.
Had I've seen those coming I may have won, both times I had a counter in my hand but no mana open. On game two I've had just Intuitioned for Loam, EE and Academy Ruins. Zo-Zu the Punisher HURTS!

Round 3, Uwb Control
G1: Lost to Sensei's Divining Top + Future Sight shenanigans.
G2: I had the engine up and running. Intuitioned for Loam, Ruins and Etched Oracle, kept beating with it until my opponent was at six life. He played Stuffy Doll which I bounced back to his hand on my turn and beat him down to two. On his turn he replayed the Doll. I didn't have an answer in my hand nor I didn't find one, I drew 12 cards from Cephalid Coliseum and dredged 6 with Loam, still nothing, not even Wonder showed up. On his turn time limit was called and he just played Guilty Conscience.

Round 4, Uwg Mindslaver
G1: Spawnwrithe got Remanded and shortly after countered. I bounced Mirari's Wake once but that didn't help much. Didn't see but 4 lands in this game.
G2: The same as G1, although I played three Signets but they were eaten by Trygon Predator. Intuitioned for Loam, Ruins and Academy but I didn't have enough mana to clear the board.

Here's the current list, by the way;

1 Polluted Delta     1 Flooded Strand     1 Windswept Heath     1 Wooded Foothills     1 Bloodstained Mire     1 Tropical Island     1 Underground Sea     1 Tundra     1 Savannah     1 Bayou     1 Scrubland     1 Breeding Pool     1 Watery Grave     1 Hallowed Fountain     1 Temple Garden     1 Overgrown Tomb     1 Godless Shrine     6 Island     3 Forest     2 Plains     2 Swamp     1 Golgari Signet     1 Selesnya Signet     1 Orzhov Signet     1 Coalition Relic     34     1 Lonely Sandbar     1 Tranquil Thicket     1 Nantuko Monastery     1 Wasteland     1 Volrath's Stronghold     1 Academy Ruins     1 Cephalid Coliseum     7

1 Wall of Roots     1 Dark Confidant     1 Jotun Grunt     1 Trygon Predator     1 Hag Hedge-Mage     1 Loaming Shaman     1 Eternal Witness     1 Yavimaya Elder     1 Solemn Simulacrum     1 Mystic Snake     1 Aeon Chronicler     1 Shriekmaw     1 Etched Oracle     1 Tarmogoyf     1 Spawnwrithe     1 Ravenous Baloth     1 Loxodon Hierarch     1 Exalted Angel     1 Wonder     1 Genesis     20     1 Sword of Fire and Ice     1 Sword of Light and Shadow     2

1 Sensei's Divining Top     1 Brainstorm     1 Ponder     1 Life from the Loam     1 Demonic Tutor     1 Regrowth     1 Recollect     1 Recurring Nightmare     1 Thirst for Knowledge     1 Intuition     1 Jace Beleren     1 Fact or Fiction     1 Gifts Ungiven     13     1 Stifle     1 Daze     1 Mana Leak     1 Evasive Action     1 Counterspell     1 Forbid     1 Dissipate     1 Faerie Trickery     1 Voidslime     1 Undermine     1 Absorb     1 Force of Will     1 Misdirection     13

1 Engineered Explosives     1 Swords to Plowshares     1 Echoing Truth     1 Chainer's Edict     1 Rushing River     1 Oblivion Ring     1 Vindicate     1 Mortify     1 Krosan Grip     1 Putrefy     1 Pernicious Deed     11

So in conclusion;
Pact of Negation/Slaughter Pact? Kinda mana free answers, I need them.
Daze/Foil?
WoG/Damnation/Infest? Two of them or all of them?
More mana producing lands? 30 is way too less(not counting utility-lands).
I'm gonna lessen the creature count for more answers to the situations I miserably lost today.

Why Swords of Light and Shadow? In my opinion you do not play enough evasion creatures to get any advantage of that equipement quite often.
Have we already spoken about Survival of the Fittest? I think it would fit nicely. Without Survival i would cut Wonder and Genesis for sure!

If you wanna add Pact of Negation try Tolaria West as well. In my opinion Impulse is still better than Ponder. Instead of adding WoG or Damnation just add Enlightened Tutor as second Deed or Explosives or of course Survival/Recurring!

Foil wouldn't work in your deck.

Quote from: Vazdru on 27-09-2008, 02:33:13 PM
Have we already spoken about Survival of the Fittest? I think it would fit nicely. Without Survival i would cut Wonder and Genesis for sure!

No we haven't, it would be nice, but again, I don't own one.. yet.

Quote from: Vazdru on 27-09-2008, 02:33:13 PM
If you wanna add Pact of Negation try Tolaria West as well. In my opinion Impulse is still better than Ponder. Instead of adding WoG or Damnation just add Enlightened Tutor as second Deed or Explosives or of course Survival/Recurring!

Tolaria, atleast, is going in the deck with Pacts.
And why Impulse is better than Ponder?

I already made these changes;
Selesnya Signet -> Tolaria West
Nantuko Monastery -> Island
Hag Hedge-Mage -> Raven's Crime (The Mage was nice and all, but Raven's Crime is better I hear.)
Wall of Roots -> Dromar's Charm (I give up, I may need it after all. :)
Spawnwrithe -> Slaughter Pact
Absorb -> Pact of Negation
Misdirection -> Collective Restraint
Thrist for Knowledge -> Enlightened Tutor
Putrefy -> Bant Charm
Recollect -> Impulse
Sword of Light and Shadow -> Glen Elendra Archmage
Golgari Signet -> Darksteel Ingot
Orzhov Signet -> Terramorphic Expanse
Jotun Grunt -> Tormod's Crypt
Dark Confidant -> Trinket Mage
Sword of Fire and Ice -> Mulldrifter
Ponder -> Worldly Counsel
Aeon Chronicler -> Crime n Punishment

QuoteAnd why Impulse is better than Ponder?

1) it´s an instant, so u can make it eot and keep your mana open. respond to a Price of progress in order to (try) dig up a counterspell
2) it digs deeper!!
3) with ponder u might draw an unkown, thus, worse card.

Quote from: VuRkka on 27-09-2008, 05:04:59 PMSelesnya Signet -> Tolaria West
Nantuko Monastery -> Island
Hag Hedge-Mage -> Raven's Crime (The Mage was nice and all, but Raven's Crime is better I hear.)
Wall of Roots -> Dromar's Charm (I give up, I may need it after all. :)
Spawnwrithe -> Slaughter Pact
Absorb -> Pact of Negation
Misdirection -> Collective Restraint
Thrist for Knowledge -> Enlightened Tutor
Putrefy -> Bant Charm
Recollect -> Impulse
Sword of Light and Shadow -> Glen Elendra Archmage
Golgari Signet -> Darksteel Ingot
Orzhov Signet -> Terramorphic Expanse
Jotun Grunt -> Tormod's Crypt
Dark Confidant -> Trinket Mage
Sword of Fire and Ice -> Mulldrifter
Ponder -> Worldly Counsel
Aeon Chronicler -> Crime n Punishment

Weekly update;

1 Polluted Delta 1 Flooded Strand 1 Windswept Heath 1 Wooded Foothills 1 Bloodstained Mire 1 Tropical Island 1 Underground Sea 1 Tundra 1 Savannah 1 Bayou 1 Scrubland 1 Breeding Pool 1 Watery Grave 1 Hallowed Fountain 1 Temple Garden 1 Overgrown Tomb 1 Godless Shrine 1 Terramorphic Expanse 7 Island 3 Forest 2 Plains 2 Swamp 1 Darksteel Ingot 1 Coalition Relic 34 1 Volrath's Stronghold 1 Academy Ruins 1 Cephalid Coliseum 1 Lonely Sandbar 1 Tranquil Thicket 1 Tolaria West 1 Wasteland 7

1 Trinket Mage 1 Trygon Predator 1 Loaming Shaman 1 Eternal Witness 1 Yavimaya Elder 1 Solemn Simulacrum 1 Glen Elendra Archmage 1 Mystic Snake 1 Etched Oracle 1 Mulldrifter 1 Shriekmaw 1 Tarmogoyf 1 Ravenous Baloth 1 Loxodon Hierarch 1 Exalted Angel 1 Wonder 1 Genesis 17 1 Sensei's Divining Top 1 Brainstorm 1 Enlightened Tutor 1 Impulse 1 Worldly Counsel 1 Life from the Loam 1 Demonic Tutor 1 Regrowth 1 Recurring Nightmare 1 Intuition 1 Jace Beleren 1 Fact or Fiction 1 Gifts Ungiven 13

1 Pact of Negation 1 Stifle 1 Raven's Crime 1 Remand 1 Mana Leak 1 Evasive Action 1 Counterspell 1 Forbid 1 Dissipate 1 Faerie Trickery 1 Voidslime 1 Undermine 1 Dromar's Charm 1 Force of Will 14 1 Slaughter Pact 1 Tormod's Crypt 1 Engineered Explosives 1 Swords to Plowshares 1 Echoing Truth 1 Chainer's Edict 1 Rushing River 1 Krosan Grip 1 Oblivion Ring 1 Vindicate 1 Mortify 1 Bant Charm 1 Pernicious Deed 1 Collective Restraint 1 Crime n Punishment 15

I'm still, for some reason, miserably losing if an opponent goes on aggro plan.
Also, I need more mana producing lands. 32 isn't clearly enough even with aggressive mulligans, Coliseum is the first to cut, but what else?

As for the color screw, i think it may be a bit of bad luck + MWS crappy shuffle. However you might try playing vesuva + urborg + krosan verge, [ALA] lands. Dou you have this deck in real life? Do you have the same problem?

Because (and this is weird) my real life deck has different problems from the online 1. lol

As for aggro, i have no idea how to help you. You play all the nice creature available to control (and for your colors).

You try and add putrefy + moat + tabernacle, maze of ith (crop rotation for these lands)The main difference in our decks is the R. i have FTK, lightning helix + sudden shock + demonfire + fire/ice. whick can really make the difference, since some of them are only 2 CMC, instants.

Quote from: Mythrandir on 06-10-2008, 08:43:16 PM
As for the color screw, i think it may be a bit of bad luck + MWS crappy shuffle. However you might try playing vesuva + urborg + krosan verge, [ALA] lands. Dou you have this deck in real life? Do you have the same problem?
Because (and this is weird) my real life deck has different problems from the online 1. lol

I do have the deck IRL, its the very first and only deck I've played in this format so far.
For the mana screws; color screw rarely occurs, the most common screws are not drawing any lands or just drawing lands for 5 or so turns(this is for both, MWS and IRL - Maybe my hands use the same algorithms as MWS shuffler :o).

I was thinking about replacing Coliseum with Murmuring Bosk and one of each splash color basic with those Morningtide(?) filter lands. Just for the sake of not getting randomly color screwed, allthough, it'd weaken my manabase against B2B, Blood Moon and whatnot, the current basic count seems to be the most optimal.

Quote from: Mythrandir on 06-10-2008, 08:43:16 PM
As for aggro, i have no idea how to help you. You play all the nice creature available to control (and for your colors).
You try and add putrefy + moat + tabernacle, maze of ith (crop rotation for these lands)The main difference in our decks is the R. i have FTK, lightning helix + sudden shock + demonfire + fire/ice. whick can really make the difference, since some of them are only 2 CMC, instants.

The problem against aggro is I can't remove their early threats early enough. Most of my counters have cmc 3 and that's too much. If I were to replace counters with more cheap removal I'd lose the advantage versus control. Most of the time I've been tutoring for Collective Restraints asap, it helps me to get into the late game and to get all of those engines running. Ghostly Prison and Propaganda along with the Restraints would lock them out pretty badly, but bleh..
For the latest list I've posted, I've made these changes;
Wonder -> Wrath of God
Worldly Counsel -> Damnation
I'm going to test the following changes;
Yavimaya Elder -> Putrefy

I recently added Glen Elendra Archmage which has been great, but if I'd have to rely on it against control I should be tutoring for it first. Which seems to be weaker in overall than Gifts for Loam, Ruins, Oracle, EE. So I wouldn't be happy to take out counters in order to improve aggro matchup. Hell, I'm already playing more removal than permission.

Are there enough good discard spells to use them as disruption? I only can think of Castigate, Duress and Thoughtseize(I'm already playing Raven's Crime).

Your deck is IMO missing some critical cards that are good against aggro and control (plus some other cards):
Kitchen Finks
Phantom Centaur
Troll Ascetic
Garruk

Wall of Roots
Wall of Blossoms
Sakura-Tribe Elder

You might want to add even some of these to improve all your matchups.

Quote from: so_not on 09-10-2008, 10:17:15 AM
Your deck is IMO missing some critical cards that are good against aggro and control (plus some other cards):
Kitchen Finks
Phantom Centaur
Troll Ascetic
Garruk

Wall of Roots
Wall of Blossoms
Sakura-Tribe Elder

You might want to add even some of these to improve all your matchups.

totally agree on garruk and kitchen finks. as for centaur and troll seems a bit more aggro oriented..

Quote from: so_not on 09-10-2008, 10:17:15 AM
Your deck is IMO missing some critical cards that are good against aggro and control (plus some other cards):
Kitchen Finks
Phantom Centaur
Troll Ascetic
Garruk

Wall of Roots
Wall of Blossoms
Sakura-Tribe Elder

You might want to add even some of these to improve all your matchups.

I used to have few walls in this deck, the first list I've posted here still had two of them.
The problem with them was that they didn't remove the problem, they just kept it away for a while until I found a sweeper, which removed most of my board too. Then, if an opponent weren't too over extent(takes a lot of skill :P) won the game as I had a clear board. I'm nowadays playing way more sweepers and Collective Restraint(doesn't get blown away with deed) which seems to do their job just okay, but I still wouldn't say they make aggro matchup favorable(somewhere around 50/50 though). Then again, I haven't had a chance to test them properly, as no-one from my playgroup plays aggro.

As for the rest, Finks would seem to be a nice little thing, but not great enough to improve my game plan by any way, imo. Sure, it blocks twice, but I'd rather play creatures which helps me to win rather than the ones that keeps me from losing.

Garruk is the only one I'm going to add in, it has been on my buy list since the beginning.

Few changes again;
Cephalid Coliseum -> Murmuring Bosk (Fetchable, I wish there was a whole cycle of these. And yes, it always CIPT.)
Forest -> Flooded Grove (Fixes some mana with the cost of becoming more vulnerable to B2B and Blood Moon, has been great though.)
Plains -> Mystic Gate (--||--)
Swamp -> Sunken Ruins (--||--)
Mystic Snake -> Grave-Shell Scarab (Snake's CC has been a burden lately. This is the Garruk slot.)
Recurring Nightmare -> Personal Tutor (Nightmare got a Win more-stamp on it's forehead. I've been chaining the tutor; Personal, Demonic, Gifts, other targets have been mostly WoG and Vindicate. It could become Merchant Scroll.)
Undermine -> Condescend (Easier to cast, fixes some draws.)
Wonder -> Wrath of God (Helps against aggro, tutorable.)
Yavimaya Elder -> Putrefy (More removals, that's what I need.)
I've also added Delay, but I just can't remember what was in it's place.

1 Polluted Delta 1 Flooded Strand 1 Windswept Heath 1 Wooded Foothills 1 Bloodstained Mire 1 Tropical Island 1 Underground Sea 1 Tundra 1 Savannah 1 Bayou 1 Scrubland 1 Breeding Pool 1 Watery Grave 1 Hallowed Fountain 1 Temple Garden 1 Overgrown Tomb 1 Godless Shrine 1 Murmuring Bosk 1 Terramorphic Expanse 7 Island 2 Forest 1 Plains 1 Swamp 1 Flooded Grove 1 Mystic Gate 1 Sunken Ruins 1 Darksteel Ingot 1 Coalition Relic 35 1 Volrath's Stronghold 1 Academy Ruins 1 Lonely Sandbar 1 Tranquil Thicket 1 Tolaria West 1 Wasteland 6

1 Trinket Mage 1 Trygon Predator 1 Loaming Shaman 1 Eternal Witness 1 Solemn Simulacrum 1 Glen Elendra Archmage 1 Etched Oracle 1 Mulldrifter 1 Shriekmaw 1 Tarmogoyf 1 Ravenous Baloth 1 Loxodon Hierarch 1 Grave-Shell Scarab 1 Exalted Angel 1 Genesis 15 1 Sensei's Divining Top 1 Brainstorm 1 Personal Tutor 1 Enlightened Tutor 1 Impulse 1 Worldly Counsel 1 Life from the Loam 1 Demonic Tutor 1 Regrowth 1 Intuition 1 Jace Beleren 1 Fact or Fiction 1 Gifts Ungiven 13

1 Pact of Negation 1 Stifle 1 Raven's Crime 1 Remand 1 Mana Leak 1 Evasive Action 1 Delay 1 Condescend 1 Counterspell 1 Forbid 1 Dissipate 1 Voidslime 1 Dromar's Charm 1 Force of Will 14 1 Slaughter Pact 1 Tormod's Crypt 1 Engineered Explosives 1 Swords to Plowshares 1 Echoing Truth 1 Chainer's Edict 1 Rushing River 1 Krosan Grip 1 Oblivion Ring 1 Vindicate 1 Mortify 1 Bant Charm 1 Putrefy 1 Pernicious Deed 1 Collective Restraint 1 Wrath of God 1 Crime n Punishment 17

Pithing Needle is something I desperately need since the printing of Relic of Progenitus.
Are Rav-block Karoo-lands playable?

On overall the deck has been quite solid lately. Resolved Gifts to Oracle, Loam, Raven's Crime and Academy Ruins is a win in a couple of turns. I know that the League matches doesn't quite show it(Not a single matches won, yay!), but MWS hates me for some reason.

Quote from: VuRkka on 29-10-2008, 11:01:02 PM
Are Rav-block Karoo-lands playable?

They are amazing, I play them in every deck of mine including mono-coloured ones. (Heartbeat is the sole expection for obvious reasons.) You should definitely play on-colour ones, maybe not Basilica but the other five. They synergize with untap effects, played cycling lands and baby's collars, just to name few. And for the love of God, cut Terramorphic Expanse.

Any updates here..? Have you tried "karoo-lands" already?

Warning: this topic has not been posted in for at least 120 days.
Ehh, still stopping by with the current list for your amusement.

Can't remember the exact changes, but the latest ones are;
Putrefy -> Maelstrom Pulse (Prolly a wrong call, may need both of them)
Trygon Predator -> Qasali Pridemage
Some basics -> Karoo-lands

Flooded Strand Polluted Delta Windswept Heath Wooded Foothills Bloodstained Mire Tropical Island Tundra Underground Sea Savannah Bayou Scrubland Breeding Pool Hallowed Fountain Watery Grave Temple Garden Overgrown Tomb Godless Shrine Murmuring Bosk 5 Island 2 Forest Plains Swamp Flooded Grove Mystic Gate Sunken Ruins Simic Growth Chamber Azorius Chancery Dimir Aqueduct Coalition Relic Darksteel Ingot 35 Volrath's Stronghold Academy Ruins Lonely Sandbar Tranquil Thicket Tolaria West Wasteland 6

Tarmogoyf Knight of the Reliquary Ravenous Baloth Loxodon Hierarch Exalted Angel 5 Sensei's Divining Top Brainstorm Personal Tutor Enlightened Tutor Impulse Worldly Counsel Life from the Loam Regrowth Demonic Tutor Crucible of Worlds Trinket Mage Intuition Jace Beleren Eternal Witness Solemn Simulacrum Gifts Ungiven Fact or Fiction Garruk Wildspeaker Etched Oracle Mulldrifter 20

Pact of Negation Raven's Crime Mana Leak Memory Lapse Remand Evasive Action Condescend Syncopate Counterspell Dissipate Forbid Dromar's Charm Glen Elendra Archmage Force of Will 14 Tormod's Crypt Engineered Explosives Slaughter Pact Swords to Plowshares Echoing Truth Chainer's Edict Qasali Pridemage Rushing River Krosan Grip Loaming Shaman Oblivion Ring Maelstrom Pulse Pernicious Deed Mortify Vindicate Bant Charm Nevinyrral's Disk Collective Restraint Wrath of God Shriekmaw 20