So with the new bannings, we're just gonna leave control neutered and useless and let aggro run rampant?
Quote from: Kristian on 01-04-2012, 03:22:12 PM
So with the new bannings, we're just gonna leave control neutered and useless and let aggro run rampant?
What do you mean? We just unbanned three cards that have no use in aggressive decks, two of them being most potent in combo decks. What we should have unbanned for not leaving control neutered?
BTW discussions on new banned list should probably go elsewhere (hint, mods).
I sincerely doubt that the loss of birthing pod is enough to help control decks. Life From the Loam is indeed a good control card, but it's only really effective in control vs. control. Against aggro, geting your lands back while getting your face beat in just isn't good enough. Yawgmoth's Will also seems insufficient in the control vs aggro (albeit it has some potential). It simply takes too long to enable plays that helps for control vs aggro. Dread Return? Combo piece...
The core of the problem is that there's so many effective spells on legs and effecient creatures that make aggro decks much more consistent and effective. As a control player, you *have* to play creatures to deal with aggro, and it still doesn't help you enough. You need only to take a look at top 8s (http://blog.magicplayer.org/2012/01/10/highlander-grand-prix-9-2/) to see how much it affects the format. All we ever see working is aggro decks spanning from ultrafast weenie to solid midrange.
Personally I would have banned Stoneforge Mystic too since it's simply too powerful in my opinion. All I'd like to see would be aggro, control and combo doing well in equal amounts since I love playing all archetypes, but it's not going to happen as long as aggro is as favored as now.
EDIT: Also thank you for moving the posts.
just use the singleton banned list, it´s almost the same as the Highlander one.
Dunno why you still decide to run your own, it´s just confusing and not needed.
Quote from: W0lf on 01-04-2012, 10:47:46 PM
just use the singleton banned list, it´s almost the same as the Highlander one.
Dunno why you still decide to run your own, it´s just confusing and not needed.
Great idea! I have no knowledge about Singleton at all, but is there any reason not playing Painter/Grindstone all day long? Regrowth and Crucible are also very frightening. ???
I think the latest banning/watch list decision is nearly perfect. There are two bigger tournaments in Berlin and Frankfurt this month. We´ll see what will happen. I assume that none of the unbanned cards will break the format and Birthing Pod definately had to go. IMHO there are still some cards left on the banned list to unban, at least for a season.
Keep up the good work council!
P.S. There is one thing to complain. The trials for the Highlander Cup in Frankurt are with the old bannings on the 14th and the tournament itself on the 15th will have the new banning rule which is really bad timing IMO. There are not so many big tournaments but this timing really splits up one of the biggest tournament in 2012.
Quote from: W0lf on 01-04-2012, 10:47:46 PM
just use the singleton banned list, it´s almost the same as the Highlander one.
Dunno why you still decide to run your own, it´s just confusing and not needed.
Singleton is/was an exclusive Magic Online Format, since a lot of sets arent available in Magic Online some cards and its interactions arent available in Magic Online.
New bannings are good and i dont see any way of strengthening control without changing the mulligan rule (since it benefits Aggro way more than Control), but no reasonable change comes to mind.
Classic control just isnt viable anymore, this is also reflected in the printing policy of Wizards, the new cards are just printed in a way that doesnt allow classic control.
So we just have to deal with the fact that classic control probably wont be Tier 1 ever again.
Quote from: Kristian on 01-04-2012, 03:22:12 PM
So with the new bannings, we're just gonna leave control neutered and useless and let aggro run rampant?
Some people allways want to grouse ... >:(
Quote from: MMD on 01-04-2012, 11:12:42 PM
P.S. There is one thing to complain. The trials for the Highlander Cup in Frankurt are with the old bannings on the 14th and the tournament itself on the 15th will have the new banning rule which is really bad timing IMO. There are not so many big tournaments but this timing really splits up one of the biggest tournament in 2012.
I see this more as a positive thing. Now you have some real motivation to test and brew new decks and try to catch less prepared opponents off-guard. What could be better for innovation than a big tournament where you could reap rewards before no one else?
Disappointing to see loam again. First games alrdy show that each game is focused on this card again. Horrible mistake in my opinion.
Tbh its good to see unbannings for combo decks but on the other hand the games couldnt be any more boring. So many games played in HLL vs combo and its just boring to battle these decks (So u face Hermit combo - he has his turn 3/4 combo kill or he doesnt, so you face TPS - He plays alone for like 5-10min just to fizzle or kill you). Pattern has so many ways to win and each game is still "unique". This is not true for the new generation.
And now even the "standard" decks play the most frustrating card ever (towards time aspect). Nothing is straining my nerves more than waiting at least 1min till my opponent decides to go into draw step for loam or draw. Then cycle and do the same again.
I really dont understand the explantion of the council. I absolutly dont see how loam does not affect the bord. Till you reach the time to cast a planeswalker you can also have an engine running with loam wich does decent pressure too (manlands, wasteland-effects, fetchland, draw engine with cycle/canopy, maze).
This just pushes green to the color you cannot afford not to run if u wanna play competive. I only see RDW in the competive corner left as non green deck.
Ah yes forgot that Magic Online cardpool is so limited.
So sry :D
Still like some decisions they made like banning demonic tutor while allowing enlighted.
Would be nice to have this in HL aswell
Quote from: LasH on 02-04-2012, 06:43:51 PM
Tbh its good to see unbannings for combo decks but on the other hand the games couldnt be any more boring. So many games played in HLL vs combo and its just boring to battle these decks (So u face Hermit combo - he has his turn 3/4 combo kill or he doesnt, so you face TPS - He plays alone for like 5-10min just to fizzle or kill you).
Fortunately, these decks are so bad that they rarely win anything and are thus not widely played. Playing against mono-green Millstone deck is also boring, as is against Dwarves or any other bad deck.
I'd like to hear how you are about to set Loam engine reliably by turn four? Intuition does it effectively but apart from that?
Loam does not affect the board similarily than Concentrate does not affect the board. You get some cards you can play but it does not affect directly on board.
Quote from: Nastaboi on 02-04-2012, 09:52:37 PM
I'd like to hear how you are about to set Loam engine reliably by turn four
As soon as you have it in your starthand. How do you put a planeswalker reliable on turn 4? Only if u draw it. I dont know where i said something about turn 4 (because the best planeswalker cost 4 mana? And even then according to your own explanation you will need protection for it - so other cards are included)
But even if you really understand it in that way i know many scenario's in which you can build up a solid loam engine till turn 4 (crop rotation/sylvan scrying/dt/expedition map/mana elv acceleration + cycle land).
Quote from: Nastaboi on 02-04-2012, 09:52:37 PM
Loam does not affect the board similarily than Concentrate does not affect the board. You get some cards you can play but it does not affect directly on board.
Thats debatable. Loam does affect the bord "passiv" as long as you have lands in your graveyard. If you compare loam to other cards compare it to other graveyard based spells or to other recurring spells which concentrate is not. Even if u can "abuse" loam with cycle lands for draw advantage thats just one of the many possibilitys to build up a lock. You cannot build up a lock with concentrate so thats not a card to compare. Cards that build up a lock affect the bord even if you need at least 2 parts (in this case: active card + passiv recurring).
Quote from: W0lf on 02-04-2012, 07:18:29 PM
Still like some decisions they made like banning demonic tutor while allowing enlighted.
Why? I feel exactly the opposite way. Enlightened Tutor is the faster card. Because you can play it for "free" End of Turn fetching all kinds of ridiculous stuff. Opponent taps out? Go get Back to Basics or Winter Orb. Try doing that with Demonic. It's pretty tough. Being Sorcery speed AND costing 2 mana is a big deal. I believe we all agree that Vampiric Tutor is much much stronger than Demonic Tutor. I strongly believe that the disadvantages of Enlightened Tutor (card disadvantage, have to reveal, only enchantment/artifact) are more than compensated by it's advantages (instant speed, mana cost) in most decks.
Regarding Loam:
I believe the card plays a lot smoother in real magic. I agree that board presence has become more important and that the council has commented on my questions in the loam thread in their explanations. Thanks! While I am still somewaht doubtful about the benefit of the card for the format I also have to put up some trust into the decisions of the council. Most of them have been sensible in the past. Maybe I am wrong about Loam and if not I can live with it ;-) .
Regarding Yawgmoth's Will:
I personally like the unbanning of Yawgmoth's Will but have already heard and read huge rants about it and such an "idiotic" decision. I think it is important to stress that Will is a lategame bomb that will often also be resolved as a small card advantage spell enabling a land drop, and 1 or 2 spells from the yard because most decks lack fast mana to do more broken stuff. I do not believe a winning storm deck list will show up now with LED still missing but I believe Will is going to see play in Midrange and Control decks as a card adavantage tool which I like because I remember using WIll like that in Type 2 ~2001. It is tough to abuse Will without playsets of the good Rituals and a bunch of tutors.
Regarding Dread Return:
I strongly believe we will see a dedicated Dread Return Deck win prizes in the coming Grand Highlander Prix's (I think this is an awesome solution to the naming problem). The deck has some consistency issues and folds HARD against non basic hate but the stronger draws are unbeatable for most sluggish 4c Midrange decks. I would like to point out that I have already achieved a single T2 kill in a OL practice game using Nomad en-Kor + Illusionist. While I really enjoyed this my opponent was kind of pissed. I would also like to point out that with Dread Return unbanned the Breakfast Combo can be considered more powerful than Painter + Grindstone because the kill is 3 mana cheaper while both pieces are also of the same type so that more tutors for both pieces can be shared and there are also quite a few replacements for Nomads en-Kor: Shuko, Shaman en-Kor (2CC for transmute) and even more en-Kors.
Quote from: LasH on 02-04-2012, 06:43:51 PM
Disappointing to see loam again. First games alrdy show that each game is focused on this card again. Horrible mistake in my opinion.
And now even the "standard" decks play the most frustrating card ever (towards time aspect). Nothing is straining my nerves more than waiting at least 1min till my opponent decides to go into draw step for loam or draw. Then cycle and do the same again.
I really dont understand the explantion of the council. I absolutly dont see how loam does not affect the bord. Till you reach the time to cast a planeswalker you can also have an engine running with loam wich does decent pressure too (manlands, wasteland-effects, fetchland, draw engine with cycle/canopy, maze).
This just pushes green to the color you cannot afford not to run if u wanna play competive. I only see RDW in the competive corner left as non green deck.
Life from the Loam will not push controldecks to be competitive enough, it will be the same like before the ban 4-5c Goodstuffpiles will abuse it for boring games.
Quote from: LasH on 02-04-2012, 06:43:51 PM
Tbh its good to see unbannings for combo decks but on the other hand the games couldnt be any more boring. So many games played in HLL vs combo and its just boring to battle these decks (So u face Hermit combo - he has his turn 3/4 combo kill or he doesnt, so you face TPS - He plays alone for like 5-10min just to fizzle or kill you). Pattern has so many ways to win and each game is still "unique". This is not true for the new generation.
We will see at the upcomming tournaments how effective it is really but in HLL it was really hard/boring to play against these decks.
IMHO there is no big advantage of Loam unbanned (besides a shorter banned list) but I neither see a big problem Loam hurting the format. Loam IS boring when the engine works but I expect that the situations where you have the time to set it up will be more rarely than during the old loam era. Time will show.
Quote from: ChristophO on 03-04-2012, 12:03:12 AM
Regarding Dread Return:
I strongly believe we will see a dedicated Dread Return Deck win prizes in the coming Grand Highlander Prix's (I think this is an awesome solution to the naming problem). The deck has some consistency issues and folds HARD against non basic hate but the stronger draws are unbeatable for most sluggish 4c Midrange decks. I would like to point out that I have already achieved a single T2 kill in a OL practice game using Nomad en-Kor + Illusionist. While I really enjoyed this my opponent was kind of pissed. I would also like to point out that with Dread Return unbanned the Breakfast Combo can be considered more powerful than Painter + Grindstone because the kill is 3 mana cheaper while both pieces are also of the same type so that more tutors for both pieces can be shared and there are also quite a few replacements for Nomads en-Kor: Shuko, Shaman en-Kor (2CC for transmute) and even more en-Kors.
I agree Cephalid Combo is much stronger but you need to build your deck focused on this (and some other) combo(s). Painter/Stone will nicely fit into Goodstuff Strategies, like it did a couple of years ago. Even without Survival/Pod there are enough ways to search your integrated combokill quite comfortable while ramping and/or beating face in the meantime. Currently I am looking forward having Cephalid Breakfast back in the the metagame as this is another axis to attack Goodstuff decks.
Have you guys ever tried to adapt to a metagame? Broken decks warp metagame around them and still keep winning and probably need something banned. However, I believe that these cards or decks you are already complaining about even before you see how the metagame will shape with them can be handled by just building your deck a bit differently or switching decks. You are not supposed to play the same 100 cards for years and hope to do well with them, you have to adapt.
Quote from: WitH-FuLL-Force on 02-04-2012, 05:21:29 PM
Quote from: Kristian on 01-04-2012, 03:22:12 PM
So with the new bannings, we're just gonna leave control neutered and useless and let aggro run rampant?
Some people allways want to grouse ... >:(
Yeah because everyone want to play magic by only turning creatures sideways over and over and over and over...
Quote from: Nastaboi on 03-04-2012, 08:30:51 AM
Have you guys ever tried to adapt to a metagame? Broken decks warp metagame around them and still keep winning and probably need something banned. However, I believe that these cards or decks you are already complaining about even before you see how the metagame will shape with them can be handled by just building your deck a bit differently or switching decks. You are not supposed to play the same 100 cards for years and hope to do well with them, you have to adapt.
I really respect you alot but "adapting" to the metagame is a really sad argument.
Would you say this to the players of the "Caw-Blade" Standard-Format too? Yes we play an eternal format with lot more possibilitys to "adapt" but some cards are just silly (And still we have only about 3 playable tier1 decks considering top8 lists). You could also say unban tolarian academy and adapt to the artifacts by playing more artifact hate. Is this the way to go on? Because then we dont need a banlist anymore.I dont see any list which is running the same 100 cards for years and i think nobody wanna do that even if it would be possible.
And for me the only lists that have to adapt are control decks. So far no aggro deck had to adapt to anything in the last years. Do they have to adapt to loam? You alrdy said it in your statement: no.
So once again this adapt thing will only hurt control decks because in the long run, you have to handle loam.
The problem is that there are no control tools to unban and there is no way all spells-on-legs get the axe. So catch-all keeper like control won't come back to HL at all. Decks like MBC, UW have weaknesses, but are quite good at beating several decks.
Worldly and ElaCall should be strongly considered for a ban though, since they can fetch threats/answers/wins at instant speed for 1/2 mana.
LED should be unbanned too, as far as I have tested it the interaction with ywill or draw7s comes up too unreliably and is in no way faster than other combos. I think people only overreact to the rare nuts draw - which every deck possesses btw.
From my testing so far:
Aggro decks have to adapt by playing GY Hate or they will be loosing to the Dread Return, Scrambeld Eggs lists and Storm, because they can be faster than the aggro nut draws. Goodstuff will add less GY hate because they have more tutors for the same.
Control decks are getting better, because thy already have the tools to fight those decks (removal and counter).
Actually they are not getting better but the meta changes in their favor.
If the council wants some Turn2 combo Kill nut draws, than there is nothing about it one can do, except playing EDH.
I'd be happy if combo decks would emerge being that one turn faster than aggro decks.
Quote from: MaggotAggro decks have to adapt by playing GY Hate or they will be loosing to the Dread Return, Scrambeld Eggs lists and Storm, because they can be faster than the aggro nut draws.
They can, but how often?
If possible, could you post your aggro and combo deck lists you used in your test game gauntlets? Thanks!
Supposed problem: aggro
1. Ban cards so that combo gets better
2. Control gets better as it beats combo
3. ???
4. Profit
1. Just ban worldy + eladamri's call
2. Stop dominance of spells-on-legs
3. :D
4. All archetypes are competive (we might even see a moat again vs a non flying aggro meta lol)
Unfortunately the best spells-on-legs are just great value cards (Mystic Clique Sower Huntmaster Finks Flametongue etc) that it doesn't really matter which one you draw to get an edge over opponent. Critical mass of those have already been reached. Thus banning creature tutors won't do much on stopping them.
They stop the consistent/permanent answers to cards like moat, collective restraint, oath etc. And thats just one example.
You know why nobody plays sylvan tutor?
Because Sylvan Tutor is a bad card. So is Collective Restraint. Look, I know Worldly and Eladamri's are good and powerful cards, but I don't think they are the keys to goodstuff's success. Were there no Stoneforge Mystic, I wouldn't play Worldly in non-combo decks as card disadvantage it provides is not insignificant.
Loam is not a problem. At least not yet. Loam is not deciding games any longer and it's not a slow draw-engine any longer. Gifts is long gone.
And if Loam turns out to be a problem anyways: Ban Intuition, which already is a powerful tutor spell and problem is solved.
Yawgmoth's Will is a seriously strong card in most formats. In Highlander there is no real abuse for it yet so I see no problem here. I doubt it'll ever get banned again.
I think perhaps Stoneforge should get banned. I completely trust the HL Council's decision in 6 months.
Quote from: LasH on 05-04-2012, 10:03:06 PM
They stop the consistent/permanent answers to cards like moat, collective restraint, oath etc. And thats just one example.
This is also my point of view. Even if we could not stop the creature power creep we could crop good stuff´s flexibility or at least increase diversity which is an important HL topic IMHO.
Everyone and his mother playing 4-5C goodstuff with 1-2 silver bullet creature against a certain deck type which is mostly sufficient because of the available tutor package. With Birthing Pod gone there is one less tutor to find this silver bulett which is one step into the right direction. The power creep on creatures will not avoid mighty 187 creatures in future but I assume that they will not print cards like Worldly Tutor ever again.
Possible math: 4 slots each against aggro, control and combo
today: 2 creatures each plus Worldly Tutor and Eldamri´s Call = 8 slots instead of either up to 12 slots or a higher vulnerability against a certain threat
(I don´t want to go into detail regarding other Tutors and deck types here)
As a side effect you will also decrease the number of Stoneforge Mystic´s per deck and will also force Tier 2 creatures (and/or Tutors) back into the maindeck. The Highlander concept whould have been strengthend because you will not see only Stoneforge/Batterskull/Kitchen Finks but also Loxodon Hierarch & Co again.
The Council has already stated the Worldly Tutor is on the watch list and I would even put Eladamri´s Call on it as well. Regarding card power level there should certainly be Demonic Tutor (and Mana Drain) on it as well, but this is another story and I would not start this discussion again as I agree that these cards could be vital for the "remaining" control decks in HL.
Quote from: Maggot on 05-04-2012, 08:49:13 AM
From my testing so far:
Aggro decks have to adapt by playing GY Hate or they will be loosing to the Dread Return, Scrambeld Eggs lists and Storm, because they can be faster than the aggro nut draws. Goodstuff will add less GY hate because they have more tutors for the same.
Control decks are getting better, because thy already have the tools to fight those decks (removal and counter).
Actually they are not getting better but the meta changes in their favor.
If the council wants some Turn2 combo Kill nut draws, than there is nothing about it one can do, except playing EDH.
True words
Quote from: LasH on 05-04-2012, 05:42:49 PM
1. Just ban worldy + eladamri's call
2. Stop dominance of spells-on-legs
3. :D
4. All archetypes are competive (we might even see a moat again vs a non flying aggro meta lol)
Yeah take all interaction away from aggro to handle anything, aggro only need to draw from the top?
Quote from: Kassow-Rossing on 05-04-2012, 11:08:00 PM
I think perhaps Stoneforge should get banned. I completely trust the HL Council's decision in 6 months.
Yeah it's really hard to play artifact or creature removal?!
The banlist changes are official since 5 days and all people still flame that aggro is still overpowered? You all tested that much?
It would force g/w/x aggro to play more non-creature answers, which, by the way, other decks have to do aswell to deal with creatures but have no instant tutors for.
The point of these discussions is to balance out the meta, not to defend petdecks or strategies. For example alot of people get upset about the yawgwin turn. But somehow it is ok when pattern wins with a rector into pattern. They only difference is that the yawg player will probably go into solitaire mode for a few minutes.
Also the aformentioned nut-draws. For it is seemingly ok to go T1 hierarch, T2 qasali, establish a board presence and have one answer on board already and maybe holding daze/pierce/force, but on the other hand NOT ok if a combo player goes off Turn 3. Which is also not common at all.
Quote from: coldcrow on 06-04-2012, 11:27:32 PM
Also the aforementioned nut-draws. For it is seemingly ok to go T1 hierarch, T2 qasali, establish a board presence and have one answer on board already and maybe holding daze/pierce/force ...
So your post says in my eyes the problem is not only G/W/x it is espacialy G/W/
U/x, because they also have other cards to produce cardadvantage?!
*So why don't discuss about to ban any BLUE cards like Jace the Mindsculptor, Mana Drain or Intuition?
Quote from: coldcrow on 06-04-2012, 11:27:32 PM
It would force g/w/x aggro to play more non-creature answers, which, by the way, other decks have to do aswell to deal with creatures but have no instant tutors for.
Aggrodecks are not really "aggro" anymore if you need to waste more and more creatureslots for non-creaturespells, they will all transform to Goodstuff.
Other decks have to play more spells to handle creatures?! Yes but there much more possibilities.
I can't hear anymore the whiners ...
Aggro -kills->
Control -kills->
Combo -kills->
Aggro... so you all should stop to cry about a matchup which control normaly have to lose.
*=Ironic
Quote from: WitH-FuLL-Force on 06-04-2012, 07:14:57 PM
Quote from: Kassow-Rossing on 05-04-2012, 11:08:00 PM
I think perhaps Stoneforge should get banned. I completely trust the HL Council's decision in 6 months.
Yeah it's really hard to play artifact or creature removal?!
The banlist changes are official since 5 days and all people still flame that aggro is still overpowered? You all tested that much?
Did I flame that aggro is still overpowered?
No
Did I say I based my one-liner theory on evidence?
No
Did I say I tested that much in five days?
No
Does playing artifact and creature removal makes Stoneforge Mystic a reasonable card?
No
Wake up before you throw trash. What I said was: I believe Stoneforge Mystic should still get banned even though Birthing Pod has been banned AND that I totally trust the decision in six month whatever that decision might end up be because I trust in the Highlander Council.
I'm sorry if you felt offended but, ...
Quote from: WitH-FuLL-Force on 06-04-2012, 07:14:57 PM
The banlist changes are official since 5 days and all people still flame that aggro is still overpowered? You ALL tested that much?
... this applied to all posts before, not only yours.
Quote from: Kassow-Rossing on 09-04-2012, 12:43:45 PM
Does playing artifact and creature removal makes Stoneforge Mystic a reasonable card?
No
For sure in my humble opinion the possibility makes Stoneforge Mystic reasonable.
You misunderstood my post. When I said G/W/x "aggro" I meant the almost uniform goodstuff decks.
And exactly they "break" your triangle of Aggro -kills-> Control -kills-> Combo -kills-> Aggro.
And the problem in goodstuff is not Jace, nor it is intuition, lol. Jace is a legitimate if overpowered swiss knife. See how many decks run him. But if you made the choice to run creatures you are really hard pressed not to start G/W.
I am not even saying the Goodstuff is totally dominating, but it has basically only good matchups. A good comparison would be the old landstill in vintage years gone. It had 50% vs. everything. Goodstuff takes this further and has - I don't know - maybe 60%-65% vs. many decks, except a few designed to beat it. That is imho simply wrong, but I am not sure if this can be solved with the banlist or is a byproduct of the format's rules.
Quote from: coldcrow on 05-04-2012, 06:35:37 AM
The problem is that there are no control tools to unban
Maybe Balance, Library of Alexandria?
About LED: If LED gets unbanned I'd have a close watch on Auriok Salvangers, there seem to be quite some enablers for LED+Salvangers+Spellbomb.
About creature tutors: The one most powerfull imho is Green Sun's Zenith. I was just curious it did not get mentioned and is not watched like Worldly Tutor is.
I saw Intuition+Loam package making it's way into goodstuff decks. I think loam helps good stuff just as much as control (at least with intuition as enabler).
Worldly Tutor searches for any creature and Green Sun's Zenith only for green ones. That's why worldly tutor is on the watchlist, and the other mirage 1mana tutors are even banned vampiric tutor,mystical tutor, enlighted tutor. Only the worly tutor seems to be healthy for the format.
I personally think that the control decks are strenghted by life from the laom. Maybe there will be more to seen of them in next time.
Quote from: SpoCk0nd0pe on 29-04-2012, 12:02:21 AM
Quote from: coldcrow on 05-04-2012, 06:35:37 AM
The problem is that there are no control tools to unban
Maybe Balance, Library of Alexandria?
About LED: If LED gets unbanned I'd have a close watch on Auriok Salvangers, there seem to be quite some enablers for LED+Salvangers+Spellbomb.
About creature tutors: The one most powerfull imho is Green Sun's Zenith. I was just curious it did not get mentioned and is not watched like Worldly Tutor is.
I saw Intuition+Loam package making it's way into goodstuff decks. I think loam helps good stuff just as much as control (at least with intuition as enabler).
LoA won't get unbaned. Especially not after LftL. Apart from that LoA won't solve the problem because it neither helps Control vs. Aggro nor gives it an advantage against Goofstuff (they can use LoA as well btw) and it can make Control matchups very boring and random.
Second thing to mention is that I don't think Bomberman strategies will dominate the HL meta in any way. Ofc you can play it in Oath decks but if you resolve Oath it's over most of the times anyways. It will help TPS builds way more (hi @ infernal tutor etc.) but even there I don't think it's OP because most decks are actually too fast or can handle combo pretty well while putting pressure through a good clock.
Last thing to say is about Green Sun's Zenith. It's a very strong card but it has some downsides to be better than Worldy Tutor. It is a bit slower and it fetches only green creatures. Although green creatures are probably searched most of the time anyways there are so many 3-5c decks that would like to find non-green answers as well (Flametongue Kavu/Phantasmal Image/Venser etc pp). GSZ is still a VERY strong card but Worldy Tutor is just nuts.
€dit: GoblinPiledriver was already faster.
Quote from: MarcMagic on 29-04-2012, 12:39:43 AM
LoA won't get unbaned. Especially not after LftL. Apart from that LoA won't solve the problem because it neither helps Control vs. Aggro nor gives it an advantage against Goofstuff (they can use LoA as well btw) and it can make Control matchups very boring and random.
Second thing to mention is that I don't think Bomberman strategies will dominate the HL meta in any way. Ofc you can play it in Oath decks but if you resolve Oath it's over most of the times anyways. It will help TPS builds way more (hi @ infernal tutor etc.) but even there I don't think it's OP because most decks are actually too fast or can handle combo pretty well while putting pressure through a good clock.
Last thing to say is about Green Sun's Zenith. It's a very strong card but it has some downsides to be better than Worldy Tutor. It is a bit slower and it fetches only green creatures. Although green creatures are probably searched most of the time anyways there are so many 3-5c decks that would like to find non-green answers as well (Flametongue Kavu/Phantasmal Image/Venser etc pp). GSZ is still a VERY strong card but Worldy Tutor is just nuts.
€dit: GoblinPiledriver was already faster.
You are probably right about LoA, what do you think about Balance?
Only testing will show how strong Bomberman can get. I think it's quite a resilient combo with some enablers (I'd try oath+reanimator). On the other hand Protean Hulk is no problem either, I think they are somewhat comparable, the Hulk needing a sac outlet though.
GSZ has a big advantage over Worldly Tutor: no card disadvantage. I think that's quite important and like you said, green creatures are searched most of the time anyways. I play GSZ over Worldly Tutor for that reason even if it costs one extra cc (if you have a tight curve, you'll need to plan that mana one turn earlier).
I have been playing a lot online Non-EDH Highlander and I'm sick and tired of 3rd turn back to basics. Is there someone who agrees on that? I kinda have to mulligan my good stuff list every time until i find a disenchant or else i just loose...
Any comments?
Regards
play basic lands
use fetchlands to find them
yeah thanks. i rly had no clue, that worked... :o
Quote from: schmuelle on 07-07-2012, 07:13:27 PM
yeah thanks. i rly had no clue, that worked... :o
My pet deck loses to card X. Plz ban it.
was not suggesting to ban it. was just asking for some similar experiences.
if you look at recent results, 4c and 5c goodstuff lists are doing very well. back to basics is one way to fight those decks and is one way to prevent that only those (imo quite boring) lists dominate this meta. you can be very glad cards like back to basics are in this meta otherwise you play the goodstuff mirror all day every day. that card deserves no mention in a bannings thread.
Can you gimme a link or page, where those results come from? I'm trying pretty hard with my list - but it just doesnt seem to work.
http://mtgpulse.com/events-highlander is one main source we use.