Highlander Magic

Today i wanna discuss the ban of tolarian academy in the current format.

Back in 2006, it was one of the strongest mana producer in the format. Stax was a deck to beat and this card was a cruel part of it. I dont remember much other decks abusing it.

So in my opinion, the strongest use of the card will still be stax.

2011, we have alot of new cards, thats why i wanna put the light on this card again.

Reasons why it should get unbanned

Statement 1:
Producing alot of mana is now viable for alot more decks (lotus cobra, more 1 drops for mana producing), which makes all green based decks alot faster than back in 2006, sometimes faster or even with artifact producer.

Statement 2:
There is ALOT more hate for handling lands (Phyrexian revoker, fullminator mage, tectonic edge, dust bowl (was banned before), goblin ruinblaster, magus of the moon, ajani etc).

Statement 3:
There is alot more hate for handling artifacts (maelstrom pulse, o-ring, quasali pridemage, new uktabi apes (renegades, viridian shaman etc), which can make it less effective.

Statement 4:
You need at least 2 artifacts + something to untap a land to really "abuse" tolarian academy.

With the ban of LFTL its much harder to get specific lands online. There are only 4 playable "searcher" currently (crop rotation, sylvan scrying, demonic tutor, expedition map, which usually search workshop in the early stage of the game), and ofc, in lategame they would get the academy.

Back in old days, it was incredible insane to abuse the academy after all lands got destroyed with LFTL + crucible, because you still had massiv mana with only one land after "geddon-effect". This point leads back to statement 4, no more LFTL makes searching and reviving for this combo MUCH harder.

I dont see TA to be broken-overpowered anymore. I see it extremly strong in a lategamephase, i see it boosting a currently dead archetype back in the meta, without making stax unbeatable.

Opinions?

Your arguments convinced me and I think, that it is worth testing at least :)

My 5 cents (or cards): Time Spiral, Mind over Matter, Candelabra of Tawnos, Memory Jar, Timetwister etc.

Afair Academy got banned because of Storm but maybe I'm wrong. Academy will boost Combodecks like Storm and can be used to get tons of mana with cards so_not already listened. I don't think this land will see play in the next few years, although I'd support unbanning it :P

Quote from: MarcMagic on 12-04-2011, 12:19:53 AM
Afair Academy got banned because of Storm but maybe I'm wrong. Academy will boost Combodecks like Storm and can be used to get tons of mana with cards so_not already listened. I don't think this land will see play in the next few years, although I'd support unbanning it :P

Yep you're right. TPS used academy, too. I forgot about that deck. This might be really the reason for the ban, and i would support the ban for combo. When i read old articles correctly, they could win in turn 3.

I think the HL Council should take this card up for testing again and I will support their decision 100% because I, for one, have not tested the card in any way and can see it be either really dangerous or more like a Cradle.

Banning of Academy: http://www.magicplayer.org/forum/index.php?topic=14.0
Some reasonings: http://www.magicplayer.org/forum/index.php?topic=31.0

Umm. There are basically 2 decks abusing TA: TPS and any kind of Stax. What it does again is increasing the percentage of busted hands/draws. Question is: Does the diminishing fundamental turn / utility of aggro/control validate the increased probability of said hands?
Right now creatureless combo is all but dead. I tried to play TPS at various occasions , but if you barely get a Turn 4-5 kill without disruption there is no incentive to play it. Dreamhalls does marginally better but is also very soft to the good aggro/control decks.

Imho the format needs a major boost in combo, to put aggro/control into place and in return enable true control to become better = unbanning of jar, yawgwill and eventually academy.

Quote from: so_not on 11-04-2011, 10:23:40 PM
My 5 cents (or cards): Time Spiral, Mind over Matter, Candelabra of Tawnos, Memory Jar, Timetwister etc.

this!

But i'm all for testing it, if it's not broken anymore, unban it :)

Quote from: pyyhttu on 12-04-2011, 09:38:28 PM
Banning of Academy: http://www.magicplayer.org/forum/index.php?topic=14.0
Some reasonings: http://www.magicplayer.org/forum/index.php?topic=31.0

Thx for the reasons Pyyhttu. That just shows there is no real reason why Tolarian Academy should be banned any longer :) At least not from what the link tells us.

Yeah! As long as we ban Crop Rotation at the same time, everything is going to be just fine.

In all seriousness, I don't even think you need to test this, but if you go for it, be sure to include Frantic Search in the deck. You know, in addition of the other quite the solid cards mentioned already.

Quote from: Kassow-Rossing on 13-04-2011, 12:00:16 AM
Thx for the reasons Pyyhttu. That just shows there is no real reason why Tolarian Academy should be banned any longer :) At least not from what the link tells us.

I think your argumentation is biased by a stax-players view. ;)

Playing lots of land destruction and preventing your opponent to resolve spells is not fun. TA both helps to accelerate into such spells and recover faster from them than your opponent does. So you have the opportunity to play Nether Void, Smokestack or Crucible/Waste afterwards to lock him/her down entirly, so he/she cannot resolve a single spell for the rest of the game.

Unlike Vintage, we don't have 4 Forces, lots of fast artifact mana in every Deck and a Sideboard in Highlander to fight such strategies.

Stax tries to remove interaction from the game, just like combo decks do. So, in order not to grow combo or stax any stronger, I'm perfectly fine with the ban. (By the way, I think it still will be absued by the aforementioned cards/decks).

But are creatureless combo / stax really that strong? I admit unbanning TA is quite risky and there would be other candidates like Jar or even Ywill which are less abusable.

I'm kind of split on the topic of unbanning Tolarian Academy. I'm worried that it might warp the format, however it has been almost 4 years since it was banned. Perhaps some testing would be in order. As always, if it turns out not be too broken/awesome/good, I wouldn't mind the ban being lifted. That being said, I have no real clue about the card's potency since I really never had a deck that could properly benefit from it.

I just wanna say some more words about my thoughts:

For several years, the council did ban to powerful cards. It was always comprehensibel for me and i think i agree on all decisions so far.
The metagame did change a lot over the last 4 years. Different people already said the trend: creatures getting better and better.
This background is the reason to think about the banlist again.

1. Creatures getting better and better, but on the other hand, control cards don't.

With the absence of combo and lockdown, aggro lost his natural bad matchup (stone, paper, scissors etc, even if it will never be so one-sided in highlander). This issue did work for several years, because creatures were just creatures and you had only a very limited number of toolbox creatures (just compare viridian zealot to quasali pridemage to understand this thought). That leads me to the point, that its time to bring some combo and lockdown back to buisness to balance out the metagame again.

I do agree, that unbanning TA might be a step to far, since we all remember the brokeness in old days.
But since nobody did play the card for several years with all the new stuff, i suppose to create a "test" month to find it out. For myself, its hard to find players besides this forum, which would accept playing vs my deck, if i play banned cards. So testing would be hard for me. Thats why i ask for this month of unban.  The more players participate, the more decks we'll see and the more information we get. Thats only possible with a time-based unban.

Since there are some more cards affected by this issue (i speak mainly of yawgmoth's will), it would be nice to have more possibiltys to test such cards (since even the council has a real life :-) ). But besides my proposal, i dont know how. Maybe some1 else has more input or ideas.

Quote from: LasH on 13-04-2011, 03:20:40 PM
1. Creatures getting better and better, but on the other hand, control cards don't.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gnYhG_ekoH8

Better than all.

Quote from: so_not on 13-04-2011, 03:29:34 PM

Quote from: LasH on 13-04-2011, 03:20:40 PM
1. Creatures getting better and better, but on the other hand, control cards don't.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gnYhG_ekoH8

Better than all.

Definitly true, but unlike Moat, Abyss and the like, Jace is also being played in aggrodecks, if they can support the color requirements.

Quote from: so_not on 13-04-2011, 03:29:34 PM

Quote from: LasH on 13-04-2011, 03:20:40 PM
1. Creatures getting better and better, but on the other hand, control cards don't.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gnYhG_ekoH8

Better than all.

lulz.

Wondering that chapin have this much irony in stock about himself.

Quote from: Helle on 13-04-2011, 03:39:16 PM

Quote from: so_not on 13-04-2011, 03:29:34 PM

Quote from: LasH on 13-04-2011, 03:20:40 PM
1. Creatures getting better and better, but on the other hand, control cards don't.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gnYhG_ekoH8

Better than all.

Definitly true, but unlike Moat, Abyss and the like, Jace is also being played in aggrodecks, if they can support the color requirements.

#2

Any bant deck not running Jace? UG Aggro not running Jace? And if we respond via youtube from now on:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-b3qQEP02o

Duh-Eh.

I remember staxx in the old days with academy and I realy don t want this times and meta back. I rather have a aggro dominated meta, which I think is more fun then everybody is playing deck with lockdowns as win con only!
But maybe I can't count here because I realy hate Staxx and I am happy the concile does work in the direction, that HL should be fun to play and that means a lot interation not like most combo and staxx decks just play for there own :-/

Yea, forces forbid you would have to design your aggro/control deck with combo in mind. You might actually move the interaction towards the stack, not the board.
Do you really think the single card Academy or Ywill would break stax/tps and make it unbeatable? The problem of stax is not that it lost TA, it is
a) aggro got alot faster
b) better utility creatures which can be played without diluting the deck
c) old/new creature tutors becoming better/being printed leading to the banning of survival for example
d) multicolour manabases enabling easy splashing of powerful utility cards for aggro, weakening one of the main advantage of heavy artifact decks, which was enabling 5c spells.

Quote from: LasH on 13-04-2011, 03:51:52 PM

Quote from: Helle on 13-04-2011, 03:39:16 PM

Quote from: so_not on 13-04-2011, 03:29:34 PM

Quote from: LasH on 13-04-2011, 03:20:40 PM
1. Creatures getting better and better, but on the other hand, control cards don't.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gnYhG_ekoH8

Better than all.

Definitly true, but unlike Moat, Abyss and the like, Jace is also being played in aggrodecks, if they can support the color requirements.

#2

Any bant deck not running Jace? UG Aggro not running Jace? And if we respond via youtube from now on:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-b3qQEP02o

Duh-Eh.

How does this mean Jace is any less control card? I could have also taken Gideon for example. That card is definitely not an aggro card but it is just so good that you can play it in midrange bant and other decks too. I really don't understand why people want so stubbornly believe that control only means some slow and clunky old-school pile when you can still play the most powerful finishers, card advantage spells and best removal and have a great control deck that doesn't have to play vulnerable and specific cards. Why can't you just accept the fact that Magic changes and if something like Staxx was the deck to beat some years ago doesn't mean it couldn't be dead right now.

Quote from: Helle on 13-04-2011, 09:45:04 AM

Stax tries to remove interaction from the game, just like combo decks do. So, in order not to grow combo or stax any stronger, I'm perfectly fine with the ban. (By the way, I think it still will be abused by the aforementioned cards/decks).

I registered just to be able to post an answer to this. Armageddon, Ravages, Winter Orb, Back to Basics, Natural Order (->Progenitus) are all Cards that are played by Aggro Decks to reduce interaction with the opponent to milk free wins. Once they resolve they all create loosing board states immediately given the proper circumstances.

Why is it unfair to Wildfire away the board and drop a T. Academy (with 2 artifact mana in play) but Armageddon on Turn 4 on the play with 2 beaters and a mana elf is fair (with the possible follow up of Cradle)? Or playing an Orb after countering a big spell for which the opponent tapped out abusing a favorable board state? As long as there are no opressive decks that outclass other T1 Highlander deck strategies some cards for combination decks should continued to be unbanned.

I believe the Academy is a viable option for this goal.

Quote from: so_not on 13-04-2011, 03:29:34 PM


How does this mean Jace is any less control card? I could have also taken Gideon for example. That card is definitely not an aggro card but it is just so good that you can play it in midrange bant and other decks too. I really don't understand why people want so stubbornly believe that control only means some slow and clunky old-school pile when you can still play the most powerful finishers, card advantage spells and best removal and have a great control deck that doesn't have to play vulnerable and specific cards. Why can't you just accept the fact that Magic changes and if something like Staxx was the deck to beat some years ago doesn't mean it couldn't be dead right now.

Finally not a provocating one-liner from you. Thanks for that and stop watching David Caruso :). Back to topic:

You kinda give the answer to yourself.

"That card is definitely not an aggro card but it is just so good that you can play it in midrange bant and other decks too."

That makes it a universal card and not a specific control or aggro card, its more like demonic tutor, playble in all decks in every situation. I speak from SPECIFIC control cards, to compete with the new printed aggro stuff. Is there any playble new card for a lockdown or a nice bord cleaner? No they print shit like the new worse ghostly prison for 5 mana (or 2 and you loose life hooray) or wrath effects for >5cc. Thats the point.
You claim that every deck should have his weakness and have vulnerable cards. Whats vulnerable on a quasali pridemage? Do you loose the game if you loose him? 2 Mana to have bord control, a excellent beater and a boost for your other creatures. Compare this to the next generation pure control cards and then we go on. I sure dont want back to a point where you can play all your oldschool cards, but there should be SOMETHING scary for aggro, which ONLY belongs to control/combo players (fe firespout).

And ofc do decks change, for example firesgeddon is a deck which was playble some years ago and now its dead. But there were no bannings which cut the deck down. Stax got about 10 cards banned since it was the deck to beat. And there are still at least some cards on the banlist, which are discussable right now.

The more archetypes, the better the meta. Don't you agree?

Quote from: Helle on 13-04-2011, 09:45:04 AM

Quote from: Kassow-Rossing on 13-04-2011, 12:00:16 AM
Thx for the reasons Pyyhttu. That just shows there is no real reason why Tolarian Academy should be banned any longer :) At least not from what the link tells us.

I think your argumentation is biased by a stax-players view. ;)

U got me :) But the argument for banning Tolarian Academy was: Staxx is too good so we ban the best card in the deck. Staxx is apparently no longer near the best deck of the format so the reason behind the banning is gone => It must be tested again, otherwise it must be unbanned.

Quote from: Kristian on 13-04-2011, 01:41:07 PM
I'm kind of split on the topic of unbanning Tolarian Academy. I'm worried that it might warp the format, however it has been almost 4 years since it was banned. Perhaps some testing would be in order. As always, if it turns out not be too broken/awesome/good, I wouldn't mind the ban being lifted. That being said, I have no real clue about the card's potency since I really never had a deck that could properly benefit from it.

I totally agree. The card should be tested again and I will accept either the banning or the unbanning no matter the reason if it isn't "Staxx is too strong". Tolarian Academy is such a ridicules card but so is Gaea's Cradle. Maybe TA has been weakened since 2007 and maybe it has become much more of a Cradle.

In the last couple of years, they have printed:

- new Swords to Plowshares
- two new better Terrors
- new Wrath of God
- 3WW 5/5 lifelinking angel
- a bunch of insane planeswalkers
- a bunch of insane 6cc finishers
- new Counterspell
- new Ponder
- new Court Hussar
- new Wall of Blossoms
- new Duress (which hits everything aggro plays)
- new Flame-Tongue Kavu
- new Wasteland
- new Firespout
- new Relic of Progenitus
- new good mana acceleration

Just to name few. These are not control cards?

New counterspell? Speaking of deprive? Is that the new counterspell for control decks? Serious?

Wall of omen
Firespout
Day of judgement
Agree.

Rest belongs to deckbuilding forum for bant aggro with B splash for named ones + dark confidant and rec. nightmare.

Btw, can we stay on topic for tolarian academy?

Quote from: Nastaboi on 13-04-2011, 10:58:03 PM
In the last couple of years, they have printed:

- new Swords to Plowshares
- two new better Terrors
- new Wrath of God
- 3WW 5/5 lifelinking angel
- a bunch of insane planeswalkers
- a bunch of insane 6cc finishers
- new Counterspell
- new Ponder
- new Court Hussar
- new Wall of Blossoms
- new Duress (which hits everything aggro plays)
- new Flame-Tongue Kavu
- new Wasteland
- new Firespout
- new Relic of Progenitus
- new good mana acceleration

Just to name few. These are not control cards?

Alot of those cards are being used in the aggro-control decks which leads to the current almost uniform Tier 1 decks. You start with G/W then either go Bant/Naya or 4c-5c goodstuff "aggro-control".
It is pretty much a result of the 100 card singleton format. Best are the cards which fill as many roles as efficiently as possible.
Planeswalkers are actually pushing towards aggro even more, because the most reliable way to remove them is to have a superior creature base.
Imho the time is very ripe to rethink the current bannings and unbanning Jar is a step in the right direction.

Don't.

Quote from: coldcrow on 14-04-2011, 02:12:35 AM
Alot of those cards are being used in the aggro-control decks

That just means, as so_not already stated, that printed control cards are so good that even aggressive decks want to play them. It does not mean that they don't exist or aren't been printed.

Back on the topic, Academy is always either bad or insanely good, and thus we'd gain nothing from unbanning it.

Quote from: Nastaboi on 14-04-2011, 08:28:03 AM
Back on the topic, Academy is always either bad or insanely good, and thus we'd gain nothing from unbanning it.

Same goes for Gaea's Cradle or Fauna Shaman for example. Your statement is no argument. It should be tested because the reasons for the banning no longer apply. It can then stay banned or get unbanned depending on the testings.

Well I don't really get it. TA will strenghten decks which are currently not or at least not often played, decks which are played but won't dominate even after more unbannings and decks which can be build around TA. The last one is kind of recursive but nvm.. Storm is not viable atm and even if it will become viable after TA unban (it will obv not) it won't dominate anything and due to this it's only pro the format not con. Staxx wants to play TA without any question but atm they cannot abuse it. TA produces lots of mana if you already got enough manasources (if you got 3 signets/talisman its okay to produce +2 blue mana imo). You can get faster starts (not really faster than Workshop->coalition relic/double signet start which are no autowin) but those antiaggro business spells of Staxx are most of the time double colored non-blue spells. I don't think people will be able to play sth like MoM + TA + random x-spell (which is 3-card combo and does not instantly win). Kind of the same with Power Artifact.. "it will see play in any staxx deck because you nevertheless run 1-2 monoliths" is just bullshit because Staxx can't play such "dead"cards. Well and all other decks which can play TA in their favor don't exist atm. And everybody knows how hard it is @ HL to build decks around single cards without playing straight combo (Goblin Welder for example).

But this whole discussion is more or less redundant because it will come to the same point over and over again. There are not enough information about tournaments, testings, metagame etc to decide easily for the formats sake. And it's a big difference whether you play 4:60 or 1:100. But what I know for sure, all previous unbannings like Power Artifact, Dust Bowl, Worldgorger Dragon, Protean Hulk, Kikki-Jikki, Chain of Plasma, Timetwister and the ones I forgot, did kinda nothing to the format and were feared bevore. Ofc it's because the meta changed etc but maybe we could risk even a bit more. Just my opionion, in the worst case it's only for 3 months and a dominance won't even be noticed until it's banned again (quite paradox tbh).  

Quote from: Kassow-Rossing on 14-04-2011, 01:51:04 PM

Quote from: Nastaboi on 14-04-2011, 08:28:03 AM
Back on the topic, Academy is always either bad or insanely good, and thus we'd gain nothing from unbanning it.

Same goes for Gaea's Cradle or Fauna Shaman for example.

No, it does not. In order to Cradle or Shaman to be very good, you need to fill your deck with creatures, which makes your deck less broken. Fauna Shaman is never insane as it has summoning sickness and can be used only once in turn (and have no good untappers either).

Quote from: Nastaboi on 14-04-2011, 05:41:50 PM

Quote from: Kassow-Rossing on 14-04-2011, 01:51:04 PM

Quote from: Nastaboi on 14-04-2011, 08:28:03 AM
Back on the topic, Academy is always either bad or insanely good, and thus we'd gain nothing from unbanning it.

Same goes for Gaea's Cradle or Fauna Shaman for example.

No, it does not. In order to Cradle or Shaman to be very good, you need to fill your deck with creatures, which makes your deck less broken. Fauna Shaman is never insane as it has summoning sickness and can be used only once in turn (and have no good untappers either).

Oh yes. Gaea's Cradle can be really insane in the right situation or really poor in the wrong situation. That goes for almost every card in the game. Some more than others. Tolarian Academy can be really poor if you have no artifacts on the battlefield and really insane if you have just cast Armageddon and still have to artifacts on the battlefield.

Let's move on to more real arguments such as the reasons for bannings in 2007 doesn't really mean anything anymore as far as I know. I would like for one of the HL Council to speak up on this manner.

It's a bit harder to remove artifacts than creatures so Academy and Cradle can't really be compared (Academy also gives better mana). Like Nastaboi said, blue is bonkers green is not.
Anyway I'll stop fighting against windmills. If people want to play their pet cards it's fine. I like winning instead.

On the subject I would very much like to play something like (very fast sketch):
Tolarian Academy
Mishra's Workshop
Academy Ruins
Tolaria West
Shelldock Isle
+other lands

Chrome Mox
Mox Diamond
Mox Opal
Top
Duresses
Brainstorms
Crop Rotation
Candelabra
Expedition Map
Thoughtcast

Grim Monolith
Demonic Tutor
Transmute Artifacts
Cloud of Faeries
Mana Drain
Sylvan Scrying
Regrowth
Channel
Lim-Duls Vault
Muddle the Mixture
Thopter
Sword
some talismans, signets and counters

Frantic Search
Grim Tutor
Timetwister
Wind Fall
Worn Powerstone
Coalition Relic
Metalworker
Trinket Mage
Eternal Witness
Intuition
Temple Bell
Thirst
Doomsday
Show and Tell

Gifts Ungiven
Jace
Thran Dynamo
Argivian Restoration
Fact or Fiction
Garruk
Tezzeret Agent of Bolas

Time Warp
Capture of Jingzhou
Temporal Manipulation
Tezzeret the Seeker
Panoptic Mirror
Fow
Gilded Lotus

Mind over Matter
Time Spiral
Mindslaver
Yawgmoth's Bargain
Mindslaver
Palinchron
Emrakul

+other cards (maybe too many win cons, probably includes some stuff that are too slow and I probably forgot many good cards too)

Quote from: so_not on 14-04-2011, 10:08:41 PM
It's a bit harder to remove artifacts than creatures

Yes it is

Quote from: so_not on 14-04-2011, 10:08:41 PM
Academy also gives better mana

Yes it does.

None of the above changes the fact that Gaea's Cradle and Fauna Shaman (Just to look at two good examples) are either really really good or really really bad depending on the situation. This apply to many cards. I still really think the card should be tested unless somebody can find a written reason from the Council why it shouldn't. So far we have:
TA must be banned because Staxx is the best deck of the format
Doesn't apply any longer.

Quote from: so_not on 14-04-2011, 10:08:41 PM
It's a bit harder to remove artifacts than creatures so Academy and Cradle can't really be compared.

Not to mention in Vintage there is no Gaea's Cradle played at all, despite the fact that creatures do not die in that format. Academy on the other hand, sees plenty of play and is restricted to boot.

In Legacy, Academy is banned and Cradle sees no play either. And before someone happily points out that "the format is different", I like to say that while that statement is true, this is still some major indication of the power levels.


Oh and, Stax is not the problem when Academy becomes unbanned, like so_not stated. Stax is still a fair deck, that just got a card that makes it's sick draws sicker and little more consistent. Academy does make a combo deck around it, probably even has some of the Stax's elements, as Spheres combo rather well with Academy, and that deck would be the problematic one.

To that decklist I would add Deserted Temple, Mind's Desire, Memory Jar, Future Sight and at least some artifact lands, maybe all of them. Spheres could also go in as they are pretty decent disruption, might prove to be wrong, though. It would be a blast to play, but I really don't think it will be fair in any means.

Aah.. Okay well then I suggest the HL Council take up TA for a test with some different combo decks before the 15. of July

Quote from: so_not on 14-04-2011, 10:08:41 PM

+other cards (maybe too many win cons, probably includes some stuff that are too slow and I probably forgot many good cards too)

Probaly u forgot to handle the very not broken creatures. Gaddock Teeg. You conceed. Quasali Pridemage? Oh no matter which of your 5-6 random combo parts you actually have, you will never end up with the 2nd part. Oh you found it? Oh wait you're alrdy dead.

Since all cards of this list are legal atm, do you really, REALLY think that TA makes the difference to your list? If thats your opinion, play it and see what happens.
You need more than one card to bring up the brokeness. Your list is clunky and would not even come close to beat RDW. I dont start speaking about bant, which can handle anything you play with counter + creatures + artifact removals.

Quote from: so_not on 14-04-2011, 10:08:41 PM
It's a bit harder to remove artifacts than creatures so Academy and Cradle can't really be compared

Not for any Bant List
http://pmtg-forum.de/wbb2/attachment.php?attachmentid=304

I counted cards like eladamri's call for both, because it can search shredder or pridemage.

Possible Artifact removal/bounce:17
Possible Creature removal/bounce:18

Ofc its only one deck, but its actual one of the most recent, which you will face pretty sure on a tournament.

And bringing up vintage and legacy again...Thats desperation. Read the text of Marcmagic he pretty said the most important points about the entire topic.

Quote from: LasH on 14-04-2011, 10:52:53 PM

Quote from: so_not on 14-04-2011, 10:08:41 PM

+other cards (maybe too many win cons, probably includes some stuff that are too slow and I probably forgot many good cards too)

Probaly u forgot to handle the very not broken creatures. Gaddock Teeg. You conceed. Quasali Pridemage? Oh no matter which of your 5-6 random combo parts you actually have, you will never end up with the 2nd part. Oh you found it? Oh wait you're alrdy dead.

Since all cards of this list are legal atm, do you really, REALLY think that TA makes the difference to your list? If thats your opinion, play it and see what happens.
You need more than one card to bring up the brokeness. Your list is clunky and would not even come close to beat RDW. I dont start speaking about bant, which can handle anything you play with counter + creatures + artifact removals.

Like I said it is a rough sketch just to make conversation about different kinds of Academy decks. This particular deck pretty much works around Academy (untap spells) so yes academy makes all the difference. The deck already has 1 mana discards and counters and it wouldn't be too hard to add more disruption and removal. The deck already has plenty of tutors, some one card combos, draw sevens and other thinning/drawing stuff so it is not really that hard to get some of the combos online. Combo decks in general have very hard time against rdw although they can't do pretty much anything to stop you if tutor for show and tell - Emrakul for example or get thopter-combo online.

Quote from: LasH on 14-04-2011, 10:52:53 PM

Quote from: so_not on 14-04-2011, 10:08:41 PM
It's a bit harder to remove artifacts than creatures so Academy and Cradle can't really be compared

Not for any Bant List
http://pmtg-forum.de/wbb2/attachment.php?attachmentid=304

I counted cards like eladamri's call for both, because it can search shredder or pridemage.

Possible Artifact removal/bounce:17
Possible Creature removal/bounce:18

Ofc its only one deck, but its actual one of the most recent, which you will face pretty sure on a tournament.

And bringing up vintage and legacy again...Thats desperation. Read the text of Marcmagic he pretty said the most important points about the entire topic.

How does one 103-card decklist change my point?

Quote from: so_not on 14-04-2011, 11:17:19 PM

How does one 103-card decklist change my point?

Well i alrdy investigated time, if you are to lazy to check more decklists about this, its up to you. But don't bring up things that are simply not true in general. Pridemage and stuff are in ANY list with GW, so is Wickerborn in a-lot list with G, so are the tutors, so is vindicate and ms-pulse and o-ring in any deck which runs these colors.

UNIVERSAL cards, deja-vu?

Stop the hyperbole.

Comparing Vintage with HL is unappropriate and does nothing to strengthen your point at all. Academy is strong in Vintage because of the cheap mana artifacts, which we do not have. Point is moot.
Inherently combo as the only plan is not too strong in HL cause of the singleton rule. That is why creatures are the preferred way to win. That is also why creature decks became so strong with the recent printings, because said creatures fill multiple roles now:
a) being good beaters
b) disrupting the opponent
c) generating CA
d) advancing your primary/secondary combo/control plan

Which is my entire point: The 3c-5c goodstuff creature decks are really aggro control: they have a strong creature base and a very solid control plan due to creatures like pridemage,elder,clique,venser,teeg and so on.
Also the best combo deck (Pattern) has a very solid secondary aggro plan which makes it so strong vs control.
Seeing the theme? Cards that fill multiple roles (beater,disruption,CA) will alwys be preferred in the 100 card singleton format, as long as there isn't enough redundancy in a certain synergy deck.
It is just a question what meta you like: Ours is already warped by the presence of the goodstuff decks, which have the best matchups in average. They might lose a few games vs dedicated metadecks (U/R nonbasic hate for example) but in general offer the best answers for all kinds of matchups.

It would be interesting to see if we could allow combo decks to be tier 1-2 without dominating the meta and I would welcome a test of such decks.

I wouldn't mind if people outside the council tested cards they think could be unbanned and told their conclusions. Of course we won't make decisions based solely on that, but we would appreciate it as we don't happen to have all the time in the World.

Quote from: LasH on 14-04-2011, 11:35:40 PM

Quote from: so_not on 14-04-2011, 11:17:19 PM

How does one 103-card decklist change my point?

Well i alrdy investigated time, if you are to lazy to check more decklists about this, its up to you. But don't bring up things that are simply not true in general. Pridemage and stuff are in ANY list with GW, so is Wickerborn in a-lot list with G, so are the tutors, so is vindicate and ms-pulse and o-ring in any deck which runs these colors.

UNIVERSAL cards, deja-vu?

Take any of your beloved board control decks, rdw, boros, ww, ug or goblins or pretty much any non-goodstuff deck for example. Is something like Creeping Corrosion or Shatterstorm played? How about Wrath, DoJ, Damnation, Firespout etc?
--



Academy is also banned in 100CS although I doubt they have tested it very much.

Format can't be balanced by making someones pet Staxx better if that means unbanning of random and overpowered cards when there will be the risk of them dominating the format. If I were to demand unbanning of some card, I would try to build the most broken deck I could think with that card and prove the council the card shouldn't be banned. This probably sounds a bit harsh but people should stop demanding unbannings if their deck building skills are limited to a single favourite deck or net-decking. To me the best part of the game is deck building and highlander cardpool is so huge so you can build dozens and dozens of viable decks. Still people go with the regular stuff which is sad :(

Some off-topic speculation:
Goodstuff decks are good no-doubt but like I have said before, you can always play control too. Problem with old-school board control decks is not only creatures but also Planeswalkers against which they have very little answers. Now creatures are both good with and good against walkers so naturally playing creatures is the easiest way to go. Now board control decks could try to abuse this by maybe playing more control magic effects for example? Before WotC prints more playable Walker-removal, you are pretty limited to Fetters, Needle, Pulse, Vindicate and Oblivion Ring which all takes the focus of board control deck to a more utility based control. One still overlooked fact is that in control Sword of Feast and Famine is an effective Mirari's Wake, only better one (has pseudo-haste and built-in disruption). The only problem with it is that you have to play more creatures to abuse that fact. In a midrange world, decks that resemble caw-go or faeries have the edge (actually dedicated combo decks mostly have problem with very fast aggro so if format warps in even more midrange direction then combo could become more viable).

Quote from: LasH on 14-04-2011, 10:52:53 PMAnd bringing up vintage and legacy again...Thats desperation.

Yeah. I am desperately trying to prove you that this is a broken card. I like building decks to abuse Academy, I like playing decks like this, and I like winning games, but if Academy gets unbanned, I really doubt my opponents will have enjoyable time.

And speaking of desperation, it's desperate to think that one disenchant, that costs three no less, is going to wreck the Academy deck. It most definitively slows them down if you manage to do it in first few turns, but you are spending your whole turn blowing up one of their artifacts, so it's not like you can put a convincing clock either.

Here is a prototype I built to test with, it's far from perfect, might have too few lands, might need some more disruption, might miss some very obvious cards. Deck is blast to play and focuses on finding Academy ASAP by mulliganing aggressively. Plays a bit like a storm combo deck.

http://pastebin.com/q6zcwjde

Quote from: so_not on 15-04-2011, 10:25:44 AM
Take any of your beloved board control decks, rdw, boros, ww, ug or goblins or pretty much any non-goodstuff deck for example. Is something like Creeping Corrosion or Shatterstorm played? How about Wrath, DoJ, Damnation, Firespout etc?

Although I do not wanna join the flamewar (at least some posts go in this direction) and throw around with invalid arguments I have to respond to some things.

Why should any deck run cards like Creeping Corrosion or Shatterstorm when you just need to play Tin-Street Hooligan or Vithian Renegades and have kind of the same effect as WoG vs Aggro. That's the point why ppl are discussing TA. Those Aggro/Goodstuff/whatever decks often only need to remove a single card while on the other hand control has to sweep the board to just get some more time. It is not the case that control wins the game after massremoval or sth it just buys some time. Ofc I know how to build good control decks even right now, just play similar cards like aggro and add more cardadvantage in exchange for speed. If I have to build a good meta-ed control based deck I'd probably play sth like Grixis with lots of good utility creatures, some big late gamer (wurmcoil, grave titan, planeswalker) and maximized (cheap) cardadvantage maybe I'd try to play Shackles and Sorin Markov (which is imo one of the best ways to handle beatdown), throw in some cheap rampartifacts and play cards like B2B and Moons. But it does not matter because you can build sth similar or even better with white or real aggro control with green.

Quote from: so_not on 15-04-2011, 10:25:44 AM
To me the best part of the game is deck building and highlander cardpool is so huge so you can build dozens and dozens of viable decks. Still people go with the regular stuff which is sad :(

I cannot agree with that. I can agree that the most fun part is the cardpool and the deck building @ HL but to build strong decks you have to follow a common pattern e.g. play with all those "autoincludes". If you build 4c Goodstuff you got lots of slots to choose between cards but about 20-30 (non-land) cards will be always the same or very similar. There are staples in HL which have to be included in every strong deck for example manaelves for big Bant/UGx Control etc. I guess ppl know what cards I'm referring to. Ofc you can play way different like moving the manacurve, add more cheap CA, less removal, more creatures etc but you are much more restricted as what it seems. For me for example building a deck follows two different patters: 1.) I want to beat specific decks while having maximum possible positive results versus other decks or 2.) I want to play a specific deck with specific colors and mechanics and try to tune this deck to do fine versus these "decks to beat" etc. If I go with the first one I end up building very similar most of the time. This is the explanation to my point mentioned earlier "being restricted although we got an endless cardpool". Ofc it is similar with other formats or even worse but I wanted to give you my view on your quote.

Quote from: so_not on 15-04-2011, 10:25:44 AM
Some off-topic speculation:
Goodstuff decks are good no-doubt but like I have said before, you can always play control too. Problem with old-school board control decks is not only creatures but also Planeswalkers against which they have very little answers. Now creatures are both good with and good against walkers so naturally playing creatures is the easiest way to go. Now board control decks could try to abuse this by maybe playing more control magic effects for example? Before WotC prints more playable Walker-removal, you are pretty limited to Fetters, Needle, Pulse, Vindicate and Oblivion Ring which all takes the focus of board control deck to a more utility based control. One still overlooked fact is that in control Sword of Feast and Famine is an effective Mirari's Wake, only better one (has pseudo-haste and built-in disruption). The only problem with it is that you have to play more creatures to abuse that fact. In a midrange world, decks that resemble caw-go or faeries have the edge (actually dedicated combo decks mostly have problem with very fast aggro so if format warps in even more midrange direction then combo could become more viable).

That underlines my argument even more. You have to add specific cards to do fine. I end up adding or splashing white to nearly every deck just because PtE, StP, O-Ring, Stoneforge Mystic etc. Doesn't matter whether it is control or aggro :P

Quote from: Tiggupiru on 15-04-2011, 12:14:32 PM
Yeah. I am desperately trying to prove you that this is a broken card. I like building decks to abuse Academy, I like playing decks like this, and I like winning games, but if Academy gets unbanned, I really doubt my opponents will have enjoyable time.

And speaking of desperation, it's desperate to think that one disenchant, that costs three no less, is going to wreck the Academy deck. It most definitively slows them down if you manage to do it in first few turns, but you are spending your whole turn blowing up one of their artifacts, so it's not like you can put a convincing clock either.

Here is a prototype I built to test with, it's far from perfect, might have too few lands, might need some more disruption, might miss some very obvious cards. Deck is blast to play and focuses on finding Academy ASAP by mulliganing aggressively. Plays a bit like a storm combo deck.

http://pastebin.com/q6zcwjde

I'd already built a similar deck but it turned out not to be that much stronger than other viable combo decks. TA is more of a combo enabler than a real combo part but still my testings didn't do more broken things than my Cephalid Breakfast or Dreamhalls did. And building such decks and seeing interaction with different non-played cards could be worth unbanning TA. But I'd still not support the unbanning of it tbh^^.

Quote from: MarcMagic on 15-04-2011, 12:38:07 PM

Quote from: so_not on 15-04-2011, 10:25:44 AM
To me the best part of the game is deck building and highlander cardpool is so huge so you can build dozens and dozens of viable decks. Still people go with the regular stuff which is sad :(

I cannot agree with that. I can agree that the most fun part is the cardpool and the deck building @ HL but to build strong decks you have to follow a common pattern e.g. play with all those "autoincludes". If you build 4c Goodstuff you got lots of slots to choose between cards but about 20-30 (non-land) cards will be always the same or very similar. There are staples in HL which have to be included in every strong deck for example manaelves for big Bant/UGx Control etc. I guess ppl know what cards I'm referring to. Ofc you can play way different like moving the manacurve, add more cheap CA, less removal, more creatures etc but you are much more restricted as what it seems. For me for example building a deck follows two different patters: 1.) I want to beat specific decks while having maximum possible positive results versus other decks or 2.) I want to play a specific deck with specific colors and mechanics and try to tune this deck to do fine versus these "decks to beat" etc. If I go with the first one I end up building very similar most of the time. This is the explanation to my point mentioned earlier "being restricted although we got an endless cardpool". Ofc it is similar with other formats or even worse but I wanted to give you my view on your quote.

This is actually a much more interesting discussion than the whole Academy banning thing.  :)

I'm with so_not on this one. You can build different decks and you can try to port a deck from another format to HL and have a reasonable success with it. The reigning trend in German deckbuilding seems to be the "play only established cards" and "don't worry about the synergies", thus many decks end up being relatively close to each other and are 3-5c "Goodstuffs". I am not saying it's wrong or anything, but this is practically the opposite way that I make most of my decks. I look for synergies that push the relatively weaker card better by playing other cards to pair it with, and the end result is often quite far from cards that many consider being "autoinclude". I am not saying every deck I have is a monster that uses only roguish cards, in fact most of them are bad, but every once in a while I do have success with cards that are definitely not automatic inclusions.

For example, if the general consensus is that Bribery is an auto-include, you are better off not playing Baneslayer Angel as your high curve card in your aggro deck. On the other hand, if world is full of BSA and no Bribery, you probably want to include Bribery in your deck.

Quote from: MarcMagic on 15-04-2011, 12:38:07 PM

Quote from: so_not on 15-04-2011, 10:25:44 AM
Some off-topic speculation:
Goodstuff decks are good no-doubt but like I have said before, you can always play control too. Problem with old-school board control decks is not only creatures but also Planeswalkers against which they have very little answers. Now creatures are both good with and good against walkers so naturally playing creatures is the easiest way to go. Now board control decks could try to abuse this by maybe playing more control magic effects for example? Before WotC prints more playable Walker-removal, you are pretty limited to Fetters, Needle, Pulse, Vindicate and Oblivion Ring which all takes the focus of board control deck to a more utility based control. One still overlooked fact is that in control Sword of Feast and Famine is an effective Mirari's Wake, only better one (has pseudo-haste and built-in disruption). The only problem with it is that you have to play more creatures to abuse that fact. In a midrange world, decks that resemble caw-go or faeries have the edge (actually dedicated combo decks mostly have problem with very fast aggro so if format warps in even more midrange direction then combo could become more viable).

That underlines my argument even more. You have to add specific cards to do fine. I end up adding or splashing white to nearly every deck just because PtE, StP, O-Ring, Stoneforge Mystic etc. Doesn't matter whether it is control or aggro :P

Splashing for cards like those is practically inevitable, because it is so easy, and so hard to punish well enough, but there are decks that doesn't want Mystics, StP or even O-Rings, so they are not 100% auto-inclusions.

Quote from: MarcMagic on 15-04-2011, 12:38:07 PMI'd already built a similar deck but it turned out not to be that much stronger than other viable combo decks. TA is more of a combo enabler than a real combo part but still my testings didn't do more broken things than my Cephalid Breakfast or Dreamhalls did. And building such decks and seeing interaction with different non-played cards could be worth unbanning TA. But I'd still not support the unbanning of it tbh^^.

I think this is way better than any of the combodecks I've seen or played, or it will be if it is polished. Dream Halls for example has a symmetric effect, making it a potential liability, where as the TA has no such liabilities and is uncounterable. The discussion about it being more of an enabler than a combo piece is true, but good enabler is way more valuable than a generic combo piece as you can have different cards to pair your enabler with, and it doesn't limit your card choices nearly as much.

Quote from: MarcMagic on 15-04-2011, 12:38:07 PM

Quote from: Tiggupiru on 15-04-2011, 12:14:32 PM

Here is a prototype I built to test with, it's far from perfect, might have too few lands, might need some more disruption, might miss some very obvious cards. Deck is blast to play and focuses on finding Academy ASAP by mulliganing aggressively. Plays a bit like a storm combo deck.

http://pastebin.com/q6zcwjde

I'd already built a similar deck but it turned out not to be that much stronger than other viable combo decks. TA is more of a combo enabler than a real combo part but still my testings didn't do more broken things than my Cephalid Breakfast or Dreamhalls did.

#2

Can only repeat myself. Face gaddock and conceed. Your list is a pure combo deck with only FoW, 3 discard + capsule to handle your opponents threads. This makes your deck extremly susceptible for any of the my mentioned cards.

Dream Halls is the most compareable combo deck list to your deck atm. It kinda looses to the same cards. Maybe your deck is A BIT more consistent, but i still think its definitly not stronger than dreamhalls. Thats what my testings proved, too. BUT i have to admit that i'm not used to play combo decks, that's why i won't take my analysis to prove anything here, its just my result and that's actually why i did a post here, to get more opinions. But so far i don't see any card combinations or deck build's which are viable, to handle all new dangerous creatures and be simultaneously able to win by combo in a very fast way. Futhermore i don't see any valid arguments other than "im scared that it COULD be broken".

Some1 else alrdy said, timetwister COULD be broken, but its not played in nearly any list. Same for Worldgorger dragon, power artifact etc etc. Futhermore, academy just gives the basic's to play combos. I dont see the problem for combo decks in getting mana, it makes them more consist, because they can play in the best case - more cards. If mana would be the problem, why is no list running Powerartifact MoM and metal worker/Monolith to generate ridiculous amount of mana? You can still cast your braingeyers or strokes or timetwister and get colored mana via MoM + any Land.

And if you really suceed to cast MoM + Tolarian Academy, few mana artifacts and your X Spells, i think you deserve to win. Whats the difference in playing 2 card combo MoM + TA or dreamhalls to end the game?
Pattern can go off in turn 3 or 4. Dreamhalls too. Any TA deck would not be faster (consens?). In the BEST case, its more consistent, but i really don't see that in the posted lists.

People who claim combo decks "losing to card X" have never actually played combo.

Quote from: Nastaboi on 15-04-2011, 01:37:35 PM
People who claim combo decks "losing to card X" have never actually played combo.

I played dreamhalls for about half a year. It kinda does not loose to card X, it looses to cards YXZ YXZ YXZ YXZ YXZ YXZ or wins. We kinda don't need to speak in that way.

Proof me wrong or don't flame. A consistent deck does not loose to a single card, thats fore sure, but i alrdy said, neither of this lists is consistent, and as long as you dont build a sucessfull, consistent dreamhalls combo, dont talk that derogativ about "people".

Quote from: MarcMagic on 15-04-2011, 12:38:07 PM

Quote from: so_not on 15-04-2011, 10:25:44 AM
Take any of your beloved board control decks, rdw, boros, ww, ug or goblins or pretty much any non-goodstuff deck for example. Is something like Creeping Corrosion or Shatterstorm played? How about Wrath, DoJ, Damnation, Firespout etc?

Although I do not wanna join the flamewar (at least some posts go in this direction) and throw around with invalid arguments I have to respond to some things.

Why should any deck run cards like Creeping Corrosion or Shatterstorm when you just need to play Tin-Street Hooligan or Vithian Renegades and have kind of the same effect as WoG vs Aggro. That's the point why ppl are discussing TA. Those Aggro/Goodstuff/whatever decks often only need to remove a single card while on the other hand control has to sweep the board to just get some more time. It is not the case that control wins the game after massremoval or sth it just buys some time. Ofc I know how to build good control decks even right now, just play similar cards like aggro and add more cardadvantage in exchange for speed. If I have to build a good meta-ed control based deck I'd probably play sth like Grixis with lots of good utility creatures, some big late gamer (wurmcoil, grave titan, planeswalker) and maximized (cheap) cardadvantage maybe I'd try to play Shackles and Sorin Markov (which is imo one of the best ways to handle beatdown), throw in some cheap rampartifacts and play cards like B2B and Moons. But it does not matter because you can build sth similar or even better with white or real aggro control with green.

That's exactly my point. Decks play less targeted artifact than creature removal and no mass artifact removal whatsoever-> it's harder for the current decks to remove artifacts-> can't compare Cradle and Academy (which was my original point). If Academy was the deck to beat, this could result in much heavier artifact-removal packages but would also lead to a pretty awkward format. But anyway it's pretty hard to predict the exact result.

Grixis sounds tempting but would probably need to have a very specific plan against rdw (Sorin does help, although it does seem a bit slow and it doesn't affect the board as much as Titans for example). I would actually say Grixis has very good matchup against the goodstuff decks especially bant.

Quote from: MarcMagic on 15-04-2011, 12:38:07 PM

Quote from: so_not on 15-04-2011, 10:25:44 AM
To me the best part of the game is deck building and highlander cardpool is so huge so you can build dozens and dozens of viable decks. Still people go with the regular stuff which is sad :(

I cannot agree with that. I can agree that the most fun part is the cardpool and the deck building @ HL but to build strong decks you have to follow a common pattern e.g. play with all those "autoincludes". If you build 4c Goodstuff you got lots of slots to choose between cards but about 20-30 (non-land) cards will be always the same or very similar. There are staples in HL which have to be included in every strong deck for example manaelves for big Bant/UGx Control etc. I guess ppl know what cards I'm referring to. Ofc you can play way different like moving the manacurve, add more cheap CA, less removal, more creatures etc but you are much more restricted as what it seems. For me for example building a deck follows two different patters: 1.) I want to beat specific decks while having maximum possible positive results versus other decks or 2.) I want to play a specific deck with specific colors and mechanics and try to tune this deck to do fine versus these "decks to beat" etc. If I go with the first one I end up building very similar most of the time. This is the explanation to my point mentioned earlier "being restricted although we got an endless cardpool". Ofc it is similar with other formats or even worse but I wanted to give you my view on your quote.

Similar looking decks can have very different game plans so you can't put all decks with 30 same cards into same category. There are no such things as auto-includes or common patters (or at least there shouldn't be). Deck building is hard but it doesn't help if you think this way. You have to keep your mind open and really stick to your game plan. Every route you take has its pros and cons. Like the elves you mention could give alternative routes to build UG/heavy bant. You could change your mana-acceleration to something non-elvish. That would slow you down a bit but on the other hand you wouldn't lose to mana screw due to forked bolt or something like that. You obviously have to have a plan against the most common enemies, which gives some limitations, but the worst case scenarios are limited.

Your case number 1 should automatically move the metagame. People should build decks to beat the current decks that leads to new decks beating the old ones. That isn't happening in highlander at the moment.
Number 2 is harder but that really is the scenario where you have to forget all limitations and stick to your plan. At least that is how I think new competitive decks are formed. Some decks will work better than others but sometimes you hit the jackpot and the format warps.

It is interesting to see different kind of views people have about deck building and it's good to have conversation about it. That also tells us how complicated this game is which probably is the reason people like it so much.

Tiggupiru kind of nath'd me in the last post :)

About combo decks in general, I think they are hard to build but even harder to play. For example I also built an Angry hermit-Cephalid deck and I think it's already decent but the deck is just so friggin difficult to play. Most of your hands consist of only tutors, lands and card draw and depending on what opponent does, what lands, tutors and other stuff you have, you could play many many different ways and make at least as many mistakes because you have to make an estimate about your opponent's options related to your own resources. Every turn.

Quote from: LasH on 15-04-2011, 01:25:16 PMCan only repeat myself. Face gaddock and conceed. Your list is a pure combo deck with only FoW, 3 discard + capsule to handle your opponents threads. This makes your deck extremly susceptible for any of the my mentioned cards.

Capsule can be found with numerous tutors, including Trinket Mage, so Gaddock (or any other creature for that matter) is not something you scoop to. Wurmcoil Engine can still win the game even if Gaddock stays on the board, or at least it can stall the game long enough for you to find a tutor/capsule. Not to mention, Gaddock isn't very good creature atm, because it shuts down your own Elspeth, Gideon, Green Sun's Zenith, Garruk and possibly other stuff that GW decks really want to play. Also, they have to find it and play it before the fifth turn, or they just lose.

Quote from: LasH on 15-04-2011, 01:25:16 PMDream Halls is the most compareable combo deck list to your deck atm. It kinda looses to the same cards. Maybe your deck is A BIT more consistent, but i still think its definitly not stronger than dreamhalls. Thats what my testings proved, too. BUT i have to admit that i'm not used to play combo decks, that's why i won't take my analysis to prove anything here, its just my result and that's actually why i did a post here, to get more opinions. But so far i don't see any card combinations or deck build's which are viable, to handle all new dangerous creatures and be simultaneously able to win by combo in a very fast way. Futhermore i don't see any valid arguments other than "im scared that it COULD be broken".

Like I said, Dream Halls is a card that creates a symmetrical effect and it can be destroyed with Pridemage, get counterd or discarded, but Academy is immune to all that. It is good against counters as it really doesn't rely on resolving a single spell, any Draw 7 while Academy is going, will win you the game. Any card draw will put you closer to that goal.

Quote from: LasH on 15-04-2011, 01:25:16 PMSome1 else alrdy said, timetwister COULD be broken, but its not played in nearly any list. Same for Worldgorger dragon, power artifact etc etc.

Yes, someone said that, I was fine with those unbans, and I am fine with Y. Will, but Academy is something I don't think is going to create healthy format.

Quote from: LasH on 15-04-2011, 01:25:16 PMIf mana would be the problem, why is no list running Powerartifact MoM and metal worker/Monolith to generate ridiculous amount of mana? You can still cast your braingeyers or strokes or timetwister and get colored mana via MoM + any Land.

Because Power Artifact and MoM are bad cards, if you don't have the other piece of the combo, and they can be disrupted with a timely naturalize/counterspell/discard. Power artifact is also a three card combo.

Metalworker is a creature and an artifact, so it not only has summoning sickness, it also dies to anything.

Quote from: LasH on 15-04-2011, 01:25:16 PMAnd if you really suceed to cast MoM + Tolarian Academy, few mana artifacts and your X Spells, i think you deserve to win. Whats the difference in playing 2 card combo MoM + TA or dreamhalls to end the game?

This quote tells me that you are playing that deck wrong. The goal is not to get MoM and Academy into play. It is to play a few artifacts, find Academy, generate mana, and draw your way until you find the MoM, which seals the deal. You don't actively try to find MoM, in fact you always mulligan it away because it does nothing until you have the game locked up. I probably would cut the MoM entirely as it serves no real purpose other than randomly winning out of the blue.

Quote from: Kassow-Rossing on 14-04-2011, 10:23:58 PM
TA must be banned because Staxx is the best deck of the format
Doesn't apply any longer.

Read this. Then read it again. Then repeat the process, until you understand the obvious.

Quote from: Sturmgott on 15-04-2011, 02:50:45 PM

Quote from: Kassow-Rossing on 14-04-2011, 10:23:58 PM
TA must be banned because Staxx is the best deck of the format
Doesn't apply any longer.

Read this. Then read it again. Then repeat the process, until you understand the obvious.

The obvious is, that this was 4 years ago.

Do you really say that Academy will make Stax the best deck in the format again, Sturmgott?
I am not seeing it.

That's what I would expect. Exactly.

First impressions:

We tested a tps list (played by coldcrow) and some kind of your proposed decklist (played by payron).

Not much to say about the TPS list so far by me, he kinda won the matches, but without academy and yawgmoth's will.

Payrons deck is quite boring once it goes off. The mainproblem in my eyes is not the strength of the deck, but the turns last to long. Its like the player is searching 5 minutes for stuff without changing the bord alot, and this goes on turn by turn, making games last 20 mins or more for like 5 turns in gameplay (condition: you have the TA + untap ingame). One thing is surely our inexperience with the deck, but some1 alrdy said, combo is not that easy to play and it takes alot of time to think and proceed.

So my first conclusion after these games would be, that you need to ban other cards by unbanning academy. Candelabras of tawnos is the strongest of all untappers, because it's an artifact by itself + very low costs + very easy to tutor (even trinket mage can find it).

Without to many ways to untap the TA, turns would not last so long. The question is also, if you play the dreamhalls-combo or even pattern, turns by your opponnent last very long too, till they finally kill you (if you play it out). The difference for me: The academy deck you proposed has nearly every turn a long turn (condition: you have the TA + untap ingame)while it does not straight kill your opponent. On the other hand - pattern and dh only do this in their "last turn". Since there is already time-based problematic for this format, i think that might be the greatest issue so far (not the powerlevel).

Maybe the player's can share some of their experiences, because i only saw a few mu's so far.

p.s.: my usual stax list had no impressive boost by TA, but i did not play it as combo deck (lock with nethervoid, winter orb etc).

Well just check High Tide/MOM archetype decks. I know a lot of replacements which can produce quite a lot of mana per tap.

For example
Winter Orb/Static orb with Tolaria seems to me as another really nice way for a lock an oponnent. But its not a 2 card lock. to make it really good another two artifacts will do the job... like Artifact lands. And this seems really evil :D

But ... I have seen mono green elven deck which uses Winter Orb and Static orb, while elves and/or lands produce quite a lot of mana... Gaea's Cradle is used instead of Tolarian Academy.

Its true that it has not so high power as the Tolaria has in the blue artifact combinantion. Its because that many artifacts can be indestructible (Darksteel citadel), while creatures are really much more vulnerable (a single Prodigal sorcerer? :))

For me personally (my main deck "HL+EDH Teferi") the Tolaria does not make a big difference unless I splash more artifact. to be honest it would not harm the deck at all, another multiple blue mana per untap will help of course, but It will be single land while I have another 7 possibilities how to produce more mana per tap.

With current usage of Mox Diamond, Chrome Mox, and other mana producing artifacts , and some indestructible artifacts the Tolaria can cause big mana boost byt dropping single land into play. +5 blue mabybe more. Thats a great accelleration for anything.

This is, to my surprise ( ;)), still a very interesting discussion! I think most of what Lash said is pretty damn straight! Lash I've also given you TWO applauds for your testing work :) And that's even though you keep spelling "too" like this: "to" hehe :D

OT
However I'm not quite sure other cards would really have to get the hammer for Academy to get unbanned. It looks like a dangerous card in a combo deck, but wouldn't the format simply warp and adapt to the new decks to beat? I mean having stuff like Relic of Progenitus and Nihil Spellbomb would just be seen more often or am I completely off? (To beat Hermit)

I disagree with Sturmgott, which doesn't happen very often, about if Staxx would become the deck to beat if T.Academy suddenly got removed from the ban list. I think it will be a great land but not better than Library was or only tiny bits better than Workshop and Academy Ruins. And come on how cool would it be to have Tolarian Academy and Academy Ruins on the battlefield at the same time?? :D Sorry for being silly this afternoon. Real Madrid just had it's first draw result against Barcelona i more than two years..

I just goldfished the .mws file Tiggupiru posted a page or 2 back aorund a dozen times. Regarding that list it feels very powerful chaining draw 7 effects and abusing the Academy to snowball mana onto the battlefield and then making use of untap effects. Deserted Temple was very strong and can be easily found with the same tutors as the Academy itself. Often I would find a TA by turn 4 and then go (near)-infinite within two turns.

I believe turns 5 or 6 kills can be goldfished by nonblue agro decks however. Green based decks can interact via artifact destruction, blue based decks can counter the very important draw effects (the list is almost 50 percent land/artifact mana making it very threat light and a counter for the first draw 7 can be a death blow I believe).

Nevertheless this would have to be further examined with real testing not just goldfishing. There is also the option of swapping TA and Deserted Temple on the ban list to limit the abusiveness of Tolarian Academy without totally banning it (I do not know what would be best - I am just trying to show up some interesing options here).