Messages

Thanks Nastaboi

Would you include the 1 mana counterspell and the 1 mana discard package again?

Any new changes to the list or any progress made in general?

I did not look into this for quite some time because it's really hard finding opponents in MWS.

Cards I would definitely work in:

Baleful Strix
Supreme Verdict
Lingering Souls

Cards I'd strongly favor:

Exclude
Entreat the angles
Porphyry Notes (did not test it, but it seems like it could steal some tempo)

I'd maybe cut:

Remand
Gitaxian Probe
Coalition Relic
Engineered Explosives
Crucible of Worlds


About black vs red as third color:
Genesis already pointed some things out. But even on the level of individual card choices I think black is stronger for control in highlander:
Vindicate and Recoil are of the few things hitting plainswalkers
Consuming Vapors > Flametongue Kavu
Go for the throat/Dismember > Lightning Bolt/Chain lightning
Baleful Strix, Sorin 2.0 and Damnation have no equivalents in control power in red

I think Highlander lacks diversity because 100 cards is just too much. It encourages goodstuff because many strategies lack the card pool to fill 66 nonland cards with singletons. Going 60/15 could diversify the format and probably attract more tournament players.

Thanks for all your replys. I tried to do some testing with this deck but sadly it's kind of hard to find highlander opponents on mws.

I did read all your comments and thought about them. I will still try to do this non creature based, you are probably right that SFM+BS should find it's way into this deck but I'm not quite ready for giving up yet

About some specific card choices:
I actually think Moat is great. Most goodstuff lists have 4-6 flyers, there is enough removal around for them.
How do you like Pact of Negotiation? I like it to protect your plainswalker drop, what do you think?
I was not aware of the instant speed of mystical teachings, EoT this could be a bomb. I will have to test it.
Is Gideon Jura really that great? I thought I'd rather have spot removal or a royal assasin...

I did some tinkering with the deck but as I said have not been able to playtest. Sower, Venser, Coalition Relic and Misdirection got cut for Lingering Souls, Spellsnare, Exclude, Dismiss (so more hardcounters for the win!).

Other nice little findings I'm planning to work in:

Peacekeeper
Porphyry Nodes
Sacred Mesa (maybe)
Ice Floe (maybe)
Entreat the Angels

[Underground Sea 1 Tundra 1 Scrubland 1 [DIS] Hallowed Fountain 1 [RAV] Watery Grave 1 [TE] Wasteland 1 [MM] Dust Bowl 1 [WWK] Tectonic Edge 3 Island (1) 3 Island (3) 4 Island (2) 1 [LG] Karakas 1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog 1 [DK] Maze of Ith// Creatures 1 [ROE] Wall of Omens 1 [JGC] Vendilion Clique 1 [FD] Trinket Mage 1 [LRW] Sower of Temptation 1 [FUT] Venser, Shaper Savant 1 [ISD] Snapcaster Mage 1 [OD] Shadowmage Infiltrator// Spells 1 [FUT] Logic Knot 1 Counterspell 1 [NE] Daze 1 [WL] Disrupt 1 [ON] Complicate 1 [HL] Memory Lapse (1) 1 [UL] Miscalculation 1 [RAV] Muddle the Mixture 1 [EX] Forbid 1 [LG] Mana Drain 1 [FUT] Pact of Negation 1 [MM] Misdirection 1 [AL] Force of Will 1 [PS] Dromar's Charm 1 [LRW] Cryptic Command 1 [NPH] Mental Misstep 1 [FD] Condescend 1 [RAV] Remand 1 [ZEN] Day of Judgment 1 [PLC] Damnation 1 Wrath of God 1 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor 1 [LRW] Jace Beleren 1 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant 1 [DKA] Sorin, Lord of Innistrad 1 [TSP] Ancestral Vision 1 [IN] Fact or Fiction 1 [AP] Vindicate 1 [LRW] Oblivion Ring 1 [MBS] Go for the Throat 1 [CFX] Path to Exile 1 Swords to Plowshares 1 [ROE] Consuming Vapors 1 [NPH] Dismember 1 [NE] Submerge 1 [IN] Recoil 1 Control Magic 1 [FD] Vedalken Shackles 1 [UD] Treachery 1 Demonic Tutor 1 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top 1 [VI] Impulse 1 [LRW] Ponder 1 [IA] Brainstorm 1 [M11] Preordain 1 [NPH] Gitaxian Probe 1 [FUT] Coalition Relic 1 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus 1 [FD] Engineered Explosives 1 [SOK] Pithing Needle 1 [MM] Bribery 1 [MOR] Bitterblossom 1 [SC] Stifle 1 [FD] Crucible of Worlds 1 [ZEN] Expedition Map 1 [M12] Timely Reinforcements 1 [TE] Humility 1 [LG] MoatCards on the watch list for a cut: Crucible of Worlds, Expedition Map, Coalition Relic, some of the counterspell choices.Other Counterspell choices considered: Spellsnare, Forcespike, Mana Tithe, Remand, Spell Pierce, Deprive, Desertion, Dismiss, Remove Soul, Exclude, Flusterstorm.Cards that may be viable in exchange: Lingering Souls.Maybe Miracle cards? There are some strong choices for control, but with only one JTM and Brainstorm they are probably too random.What do you think?]

I recently tinkered with a control deck to see if it's viable. This deck is not yet optimized, there are quite some suboptimal card choices but I decided to post it anyway.

// Lands
   1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (1)
   1 [UL] Faerie Conclave
   1 [MOR] Mutavault
   1 [WWK] Creeping Tar Pit
   1 [WWK] Celestial Colonnade
   1 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
   1 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
   1 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
   1 [ZEN] Marsh Flats
   1 [ZEN] Arid Mesa
   1 [ON] Flooded Strand
   1 [ON] Windswept Heath
   1 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
   1 [ON] Polluted Delta
   1 Underground Sea
   1 Tundra
   1 Scrubland
   1 [DIS] Hallowed Fountain
   1 [RAV] Watery Grave
   1 [TE] Wasteland
   1 [MM] Dust Bowl
   1 [WWK] Tectonic Edge
   3 Island (1)
   3 Island (3)
   4 Island (2)
   1 [LG] Karakas
   1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
   1 [DK] Maze of Ith

// Creatures
   1 [ROE] Wall of Omens
   1 [JGC] Vendilion Clique
   1 [FD] Trinket Mage
   1 [LRW] Sower of Temptation
   1 [FUT] Venser, Shaper Savant
   1 [ISD] Snapcaster Mage
   1 [OD] Shadowmage Infiltrator

// Spells
   1 [FUT] Logic Knot
   1 Counterspell
   1 [NE] Daze
   1 [WL] Disrupt
   1 [ON] Complicate
   1 [HL] Memory Lapse (1)
   1 [UL] Miscalculation
   1 [RAV] Muddle the Mixture
   1 [EX] Forbid
   1 [LG] Mana Drain
   1 [FUT] Pact of Negation
   1 [MM] Misdirection
   1 [AL] Force of Will
   1 [PS] Dromar's Charm
   1 [LRW] Cryptic Command
   1 [NPH] Mental Misstep
   1 [FD] Condescend
   1 [RAV] Remand
   1 [ZEN] Day of Judgment
   1 [PLC] Damnation
   1 Wrath of God
   1 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
   1 [LRW] Jace Beleren
   1 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
   1 [DKA] Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
   1 [TSP] Ancestral Vision
   1 [IN] Fact or Fiction
   1 [AP] Vindicate
   1 [LRW] Oblivion Ring
   1 [MBS] Go for the Throat
   1 [CFX] Path to Exile
   1 Swords to Plowshares
   1 [ROE] Consuming Vapors
   1 [NPH] Dismember
   1 [NE] Submerge
   1 [IN] Recoil
   1 Control Magic
   1 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
   1 [UD] Treachery
   1 Demonic Tutor
   1 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
   1 [VI] Impulse
   1 [LRW] Ponder
   1 [IA] Brainstorm
   1 [M11] Preordain
   1 [NPH] Gitaxian Probe
   1 [FUT] Coalition Relic
   1 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
   1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
   1 [SOK] Pithing Needle
   1 [MM] Bribery
   1 [MOR] Bitterblossom
   1 [SC] Stifle
   1 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
   1 [ZEN] Expedition Map
   1 [M12] Timely Reinforcements
   1 [TE] Humility
   1 [LG] Moat


Cards on the watch list for a cut: Crucible of Worlds, Expedition Map, Coalition Relic, some of the counterspell choices.
Other Counterspell choices considered: Spellsnare, Forcespike, Mana Tithe, Remand, Spell Pierce, Deprive, Desertion, Dismiss, Remove Soul, Exclude, Flusterstorm.
Cards that may be viable in exchange: Lingering Souls.
Maybe Miracle cards? There are some strong choices for control, but with only one JTM and Brainstorm they are probably too random.

What do you think?

LoA won't get unbaned. Especially not after LftL. Apart from that LoA won't solve the problem because it neither helps Control vs. Aggro nor gives it an advantage against Goofstuff (they can use LoA as well btw) and it can make Control matchups very boring and random.

Second thing to mention is that I don't think Bomberman strategies will dominate the HL meta in any way. Ofc you can play it in Oath decks but if you resolve Oath it's over most of the times anyways. It will help TPS builds way more (hi @ infernal tutor etc.) but even there I don't think it's OP because most decks are actually too fast or can handle combo pretty well while putting pressure through a good clock.

Last thing to say is about Green Sun's Zenith. It's a very strong card but it has some downsides to be better than Worldy Tutor. It is a bit slower and it fetches only green creatures. Although green creatures are probably searched most of the time anyways there are so many 3-5c decks that would like to find non-green answers as well (Flametongue Kavu/Phantasmal Image/Venser etc pp). GSZ is still a VERY strong card but Worldy Tutor is just nuts.

€dit: GoblinPiledriver was already faster.

You are probably right about LoA, what do you think about Balance?

Only testing will show how strong Bomberman can get. I think it's quite a resilient combo with some enablers (I'd try oath+reanimator). On the other hand Protean Hulk is no problem either, I think they are somewhat comparable, the Hulk needing a sac outlet though.

GSZ has a big advantage over Worldly Tutor: no card disadvantage. I think that's quite important and like you said, green creatures are searched most of the time anyways. I play GSZ over Worldly Tutor for that reason even if it costs one extra cc (if you have a tight curve, you'll need to plan that mana one turn earlier).

The problem is that there are no control tools to unban

Maybe Balance, Library of Alexandria?


About LED: If LED gets unbanned I'd have a close watch on Auriok Salvangers, there seem to be quite some enablers for LED+Salvangers+Spellbomb.


About creature tutors: The one most powerfull imho is Green Sun's Zenith. I was just curious it did not get mentioned and is not watched like Worldly Tutor is.


I saw Intuition+Loam package making it's way into goodstuff decks. I think loam helps good stuff just as much as control (at least with intuition as enabler).

I would like to see strip mine unbanned. The only way I see to break this atm is crucible but I do not think it'd be too bad. I think this format could use more LD and in the current meta it's not much stronger then wasteland.

Please don't ban Stoneforge, if he proves to be too strong ban batterskull. Stoneforge is one of the few good 2cc drops this format has.

If you really want to stop multicolor goodstuff aggro you probably have to reduce the library to 60 cards. Wizards is printing too many good aggro critters over the past few years, and so few good control cards (because magic players are whiny about control theese days). This would strengthen combo, control and nonbasic hate, I think it would add a lot of diversity to the meta.

I did play legacy goblins a lot. I'm wondering if you tested frogtosser banneret? It is amazing acceleration for your onslaught
Did you try Sensation Gorger? Seems like pretty solid card draw for me (maybe instead of bob).

Banneret was in the original build (first post) but got cut somewhere along the way because it's so small and the acceleration was not very relevant somehow. Even Warchief is not great (although pretty good) on it's own but it's very needed in most of Recruiter-kills. Banneret is good if you play with the Kiki-Jiki/Lightning Crafter/Skirk Prospector-combo which is fine if something like Moat feels unwinnable otherwise.

Sensation Gorger is not very good because it also gives cards to your opponent and there are only about 40 goblins (or less) in the deck.

In my deck tryouts I usually hat the feeling my goblins lacked tempo. Compared to my legacy goblins (playing 2 chrome mox for turn 1 instigator) highlander goblins cannot keep up. But the banneret helps for sure.

@Han: I would also play tectonic edge, maybe dustbowl. Landdestruction proved critical to legacy goblins, I think this is true for highlander goblins as well. That's why I wouldn't cut the ruinblaster.
Maybe pillage>ancient grudge? It's less situational.
I do not like blightning, it just comes too late for relevant discard, and the combined damage effect just isn't worth it imho.
Goblin sledder is nothing to sneeze at for the final blow. Good card for the 1cc slot imho.
Chain lightning is another pretty good removal spell you might want to consider.
What about boggart mob and knucklebone witch? The witch is another decent 1cc drop.

I still think weathered wayfarer is a pretty good card to fetch wasteland, WW is low on cardadvantage and wasteland (and maybe dustbowl/tectonic edge) will help your gameplan. For me, maze of ith proved to be quite a strong card even in pure aggro. I also like jotun grunt a lot. He is good gy hate (something WW lacks), stays reasonably long and is absolutely sick if drawn with wayfarer (wasteland recursion!). You play Stoneforge, where is the Batterskull? Since your curve ends at 4, you might consider Baneslayer, Gideon and elspeth tirel for powercreeps
I did not count your legends, Eiganjo Castle might be a card you want to look at though.
What about armageddon? It's quite strong the classic WW.

Hope that helped,
-- Spock

There are just too many good 2 cc spells

I feel actually just the opposite, frustration on not enough good two-drops. Mystic, Cobra, Sculler, Ooze, Bitterblossom are good but rest are meh or not actual 2nd turn plays (Snapcaster, Tarmo). On the other hand, relying too much on mana dudes makes you weak on removal as you keep hands based on acceleration and then they proceed to kill your Bird.

I think Quirion Dryard, quasali pridemage and tarmogoyf (he is 3/4 by turn 3 often enough) are good too. But that's only 8 out of 100 so you're probably right. Maybe I should think about adding Bob.

There are some choices I'm unsure about:
EE (is this card even viable in the current meta?)
Baneslayer (5cc is just very much considering that it can be removed for 1)
Shadowmage Infiltrator (Good for carddraw but quite slow, does not deal significant damage)
Kira, Great glass spinner (is there enough spotremoval in the meta to justify the slot?)
Spell pierce (I think it's a very good counterspell for tempo decks and fits the gameplan of this deck, I dunno if it hits enough relevant targets though)


What do you think?

It's been some time.

I came back and worked on my highlander deck. See the OP for changes.

I refuse to play mana ramps if they do not fix my mana (like birds/noble hirarch), tutor utility lands (weathered wayfarer) or are just nuts (like lotus cobra). I'd rather play another 1cc discard spell or MM, I think it's superior to wasting turn 1 for a 3cc drop turn 2. There are just too many good 2 cc spells and that 3cc drop gets eaten by 1cc removal.

Maybe dropping the titan is a good idea, baneslayer and bribery can often win the game just as well. It's intended to win the game after a lategame board wipe, but there are probably options in lower cc slots as well. I just rarely draw the card, mostly lategame when I get to see a lot of cards. Strangely I get to 6 mana quite often.

Command got cut, it was really only there to beat control if they got into control with artifacts and/or enchantments. But the game is usually lost by then anyways (often due to their sheer card advantage).

Consuming vapors proved incredibly strong, even at 4 mana. It's like 2 diabolic edict plus lifegain, often a game winner vs aggro.

The reason why 33 lands works for me is:
1. highlander mulligan
2. 11 spells that fix your mana, 7 at 1cc


What do you think of NO/progenitus? I somehow fear bribery, and drawing progenitus without NO sucks. On the other hand NO could just win the game turn 6.

I did cut austere command and divert for tidehollow sculler (amazingly good hatebear) and phyrexian revoker (strong vs maze of ith and plainswalkers).

There is not enough mana in the deck. I would advise you to add 1-2 another mana sources. Without Elves and stuff I would not go to 6CC. If you add mana accleration I would definately add the G&B Titans. If you ask you what to take out I would start with the conditional counters and expensive removal. Battling Planeswalker is easier with flash creatures and the UB/(UW) manland. You also should decide if you go the tempo or the control way. Currently you mix both strategies. Good 2CC beaters are rare but there are a lot of good 3CC creatures which require the elf package.

In my experience the mana sources are just right. Played around 150 games with this deck and got screwed very rarely.

The only removal I find expensive is Bant Charm, it is a swiss knife though. Not sending creatures to the gy is a good ability plus it isn't a dead card vs control. Maybe go for the throat can be cut for ghastly demise.

Actually going both routes, tempo and control, is what makes this deck strong. Drop tempo creatures while denying the opponent wrath effects and bigger tempo creatures.

I did play legacy goblins a lot. I'm wondering if you tested frogtosser banneret? It is amazing acceleration for your onslaught
Did you try Sensation Gorger? Seems like pretty solid card draw for me (maybe instead of bob).