I will do this as shortly as possible because it's very likely boring reading for most people. However I feel like I have to say something.
Gifts Ungiven should be banned in my eyes. Every blue player will play it and it will always be a good card. It is easily splash-able and it will ensure a much higher percentage of winning the game once resolved. Gifts Ungiven can find many different combo pieces and will therefore be an auto-include in any control deck. Life from the Loam got banned because of this card. Gifts Ungiven is a 2:1 card but it won't draw the two random cards but two of the seven best cards in the deck (or whatever). This card will always be a threat to the format for as long as it stays in.
Demonic Tutor should be banned in my eyes. In a 100 cards singleton format, a tutor spell is just more powerful than it other times is. For that reason Vampiric Tutor, Enlightened Tutor and Mystical Tutor has been banned. The fact that is costs one whole more mana to cast than the previous mentioned tutor's matters not much. It is much better than any of them. Demonic Tutor is a card that is hard to "defend" when talking to non-Highlander players about the banning list of the Highlander format. It is simply too good.
Wheel of Fortune should not be banned in my eyes. Yes it is better in red than in blue (Timetwister) but I don't see it be near good enough neither unfair to be banned. I won't argue much here because I have not tested the card in any way. If the HL Council has, I'm fine with this even though I find it peculiar a red card is banned when a blue is not if they do the same. Timetwister should not be banned because it doesn't do that much. Even in the right situation.
Life from the Loam should not be banned in my eyes. In no way is this card better than Crucible of Worlds if cards like Gifts Ungiven and Intuition wouldn't exist and Crucible is far from being good enough. Back when LftL got banned I think a mistake was made. People were "crying" (Sorry it's easier to explain using familiar words) about the fact that Gifts Ungiven was too good and that the Wasteland Lock-Down was dominating the control match-up's. They were right. As a result Intuition and Gifts Ungiven should have been banned because those cards are over-the-top good in a 100 cards singleton format. Life from the Loam does nothing dangerous alone, Gifts does.
Trinisphere should not be banned in my eyes. I have tried asking the HL Council for the reason why this card was banned and the response has been "sry - can't find it". To my knowledge (And I'm sorry if I'm mistaken) I believe this card has been bd. I can seeanned for a very long time, maybe right from the beginning, for no reason at all. I suspect it to be taken from the Legacy ban list where it makes perfectly sense to ban such a card. I don't think it belongs to the HL ban list. It won't kill of any deck, even aggro will be able to run around it in this format. I would not even play it in my Staxx deck, where it suits better than any deck. Obviously it will be amazing with M. Workshop but without Wshop turn1, I don't think this card is any threat to the format.
Patrick
I have some figures for you. Thus far, resolved Gifts has lead to victory in 34 games out of 44 which is 77 %. Demonic has won 21 times out of 34 -> 62 % and Jace, the Mind Sculptor impressive 16 out of 20 -> 80 %. The sample size is really small and I mostly play control-on-control matches, but it gives us something to think about. If nothing else, these figures show that Demonic can be used "fair" as finding a land when screwed or an immediate answer to a threat so it's a great card for not losing. As opposed to Gifts, which will usually win if you are not too far behind or you opponent doesn't topdeck something equally threatening.
I tend to agree with you on most parts, but everything will be discussed in detail with council to see if any of these moves should be made. Trinisphere BTW is banned just because of "the unfun factor", and while there are no other real arguments for keeping it on the list, I don't really miss it.
I do not want to post a kneejerk reaction here but:
This is the typical result of previous bans which lead to more bans. If you ban Gifts and DT, noncreature combo is dead (it is pretty much anyways) and the format becomes even more a clash between aggro and control with some fringe combo decks mixed in.
Also my personal consequence would be leaving the format alone for the time being.
Thx for the response both of you.
The numbers matter, but I don't think they should be the sole reason to ban or not ban a card. I don't think Jace, the Mind Sculptor should ever be banned from a format like this. It costs UU and it's great fun. Gifts is so easily splashable that you have to keep it on some sort of Watch List all the time. As goes for Demonic Tutor. Trinisphere could be banned for the fun factor, but then I really think 10 other cards should be banned as well. I don't think a non-powerful unfun card should be banned for the fact that it's unfun if no one wants to play it. Maybe I'm wrong on one or several levels.
Quote from: Nastaboi on 23-02-2011, 02:08:57 PM
Trinisphere BTW is banned just because of "the unfun factor", and while there are no other real arguments for keeping it on the list, I don't really miss it.
weird!
@kassow. Wheel of fortunate has been explained before and i agree. There aren't many aggro blue decks, beside Skies (which i havent' seen in quite a while). So timetwister isn't as a killer as wheel for aggro decks. Decks such as RDW or pure burn where you can easily empty your hand in a few turns and then cast wheel to refuel your fire (no pun intended) is just too strong, IMO.
Although i haven't seen many timetwisters being played, even in online mode, i wish this hadn't left the banning list.
I can't see gifts and demonic tutor being as big a problem as you state. I happen to play non-creature combo ofcourse ;).
I do agree that both cards are strong and some of the more powerful cards in this format, but my point of view is that some powerful cards are needed to keep the format alive.
If you remove all usable tutors you remove some possibilities on the other hand if you have to many combo runs rampant.
You could ban both cards because of their powerlevel but there has to be more reasons, and sofar I haven't heard any other reasons that really makes a case for any bannings. Easy to splash? Most of the really powerful cards are "easy" to splash. Most really good cards improves your chance to win..
I would ban jace 2.0 before any of the tutors, I do feel it's more of a problem compared to these two. Ban the cards they search for before you ban the tutors I always say..
Also: if you ban all the good tutors the variance of viable decks will shrink dramatically, possibly leading to the already visible meta of stax vs naya vs rector (I am exxagerating of course). True non-prison control also needs tutors to find their wincons or solutions. I don't understand why ET + MT + VT are banned anyways. I find the current meta less interesting than a possible more combo/controllish meta with them. IT doesn't matter where the interaction happens, on the board or on the stack, but a slight push for control would be good. The only problem I can see right now would be that Rector gets 2 more tutors :)
Trinisphere:
Banned when Staxx started to become a prominent deck. T1 or T2 Sphere is just too much for many decks to overcome. It does not happen every game, but often enough to steal games from the start. Vs Beatdown it is like a time walk x2, changing into a one sided arcane lab.
The Tutors:
The one mana instant T. are incredible powerful, because you can
1: react eot --> full mana available
2: can tutor up t1 a powerful t2 play
Oath Example: T1 Vamp/ET -> T2 Oath
T2 Demonic -> T3 Oath
I guess everybody agrees, that tapping out turn 2 and three opens more windows for aggro to stay in play then just tapping out turn 2. Bashing for 6-9 extra damage is also nice.
3: The 1 mana Ts. are only inferior if you topdeck them and if you need an answer right now.
Jace 2.0:
If a card should be banned, i would say this guy. If this planeswalker stays on board for 2-3 Turns it is highly unlikely that you will win the game.
just my 2cents
I did not state that I want Jace banned nor that banning should be based on my figures only. I was just representig those figures and letting you to draw your own conclusions.
We don't want to all tutors banned, just the very best ones. I feel that Demonic is more powerful than Enlightened and Mystical, but many think it's other way around.
Control is find without tutors. In deckbuilding, there are a thing that's called consistency. When you put enough answers and some card draw in your deck, you'll be able to eventually gain control, and then win just what you happen to have that time. In my UW control recently published in the blog, I chose not to splash Demonic as I felt no need for it and went for a red splash instead. Control without Gifts? You'd propably just add another card that is good against aggro in its place, and have one less card that decides control mirrors in the spot. Aggro is not getting any stronger.
BTW, the only time I have lost with Jace is when an opponent had an immediate answer.
Jace is sick in control mirror, but it's not like Library of Alexandria-sick, which you can't counter, and have only limited answers. Jace can be fought with counters, bounce and creatures (O-Ring works too). If your opponent is playing blue-based control, you really should be wary of the possibility of him having a Jace and not tap-out to play semi-irrelevant cards when opponent has access to four mana. Keeping up the counter mana can work as well, because in HL, you can't just draw and play another copy of sick planeswalkers, so it's kind of risky to play your trump cards into untapped islands. Just give the card the proper respect and you shouldn't lose too many games to it.
Against aggro, Jace, Market Sculptor is either a bad speed bump, or it doesn't really accomplish anything too relevant. Naturally, it wins against aggro once the board is under control, but same is true for any finisher. Banning Jace sounds pretty ridiculous if you ask me.
I mentioned this last time bannings were discussed, but what comes to ET and MT in Pattern-Rector: Enlightened is not going to be sick in that deck. I cut Idyllic long time ago from it, and while ET is definitely going in, it's still very limited. Pattern is the worst combo-piece, but on the upside, you can find Recurring Nightmare (O-Ring, too), which makes up for the lost CA. Mystical is (I think at least) decent in the version that splashes for blue, but the splash is still because of Gifts, MT is just freebie. I'd see no reason to splash blue, if Gifts were banned.
I totaly agree with Nastaboi, if gifts get banned pure control won't change much.
The decks that will feel the weight of this if it was to be a reality would be the combo decks for sure!
In my opinion, its not necessary to ban/unban any cards right now. The format is healthy.
To go more into detail:
Gifts Ungiven - Life from the Loam: I disagree that GU needs a ban. In my opinion, banning Lftl was the right choice. There is a huge difference in lftl and crucible. You have a big draw Engine with Lftl + cycle lands. 2nd argument: If your crucible gets countered, you need another card to revive it, while lftl can "revive" itself. 3rd Argument: Lftl + dredge slows down any game.
Trinisphere: I like this card too. I even tested it for fun recently, and my conclusion is: It straight wins any game with turn 1 workshop + trinisphere. Thats why i agree that its better not touched.
Wheel: Would make a "i win" for any burn deck, if it resolves.
Demonic: Should stay in the format. I don't feel like it's an "auto win" or to powerful. And the format does need some tutor's.
Jace: Yes one of the strongest cards in the format. But loosing to jace does not feel frustrating for me (yet).
Quote from: LasH on 24-02-2011, 04:03:09 PM
Jace: Yes one of the strongest cards in the format. But loosing to jace does not feel frustrating for me (yet).
I think this is true for most (good) PW. As a control player any garruk, ajani, elsepth, koth, tez, sarkhan left unchecked is going to get you killed, unless dealt within a couple of turns.
I've won and lost with PW on the table... on my side and on the otherside. PW will see more and more play as we see more of them, so we just have to adjust to it. Jace doesn't seem power broken.
Quote from: LasH on 24-02-2011, 04:03:09 PM
In my opinion, its not necessary to ban/unban any cards right now. The format is healthy.
Quote from: LasH on 24-02-2011, 04:03:09 PM
Demonic: Should stay in the format. [...] And the format does need some tutor's.
Agreed!
Quote from: LasH on 24-02-2011, 04:03:09 PM
In my opinion, its not necessary to ban/unban any cards right now. The format is healthy.
To go more into detail:
Gifts Ungiven - Life from the Loam: I disagree that GU needs a ban. In my opinion, banning Lftl was the right choice. There is a huge difference in lftl and crucible. You have a big draw Engine with Lftl + cycle lands. 2nd argument: If your crucible gets countered, you need another card to revive it, while lftl can "revive" itself. 3rd Argument: Lftl + dredge slows down any game.
Trinisphere: I like this card too. I even tested it for fun recently, and my conclusion is: It straight wins any game with turn 1 workshop + trinisphere. Thats why i agree that its better not touched.
Wheel: Would make a "i win" for any burn deck, if it resolves.
Demonic: Should stay in the format. I don't feel like it's an "auto win" or to powerful. And the format does need some tutor's.
Jace: Yes one of the strongest cards in the format. But loosing to jace does not feel frustrating for me (yet).
Totally Agreed!!!
At the moment the format is as good as never before.
Quote from: Mythrandir on 23-02-2011, 09:45:53 PM
weird!
@kassow. Wheel of fortunate has been explained before and i agree. There aren't many aggro blue decks, beside Skies (which i havent' seen in quite a while). So timetwister isn't as a killer as wheel for aggro decks. Decks such as RDW or pure burn where you can easily empty your hand in a few turns and then cast wheel to refuel your fire (no pun intended) is just too strong, IMO.
Although i haven't seen many timetwisters being played, even in online mode, i wish this hadn't left the banning list.
I can see that. I now agree with the banning of Wheel of Fortune. Timetwister should still be kept unbanned.
Quote from: PurlQg on 23-02-2011, 11:55:10 PM
I can't see gifts and demonic tutor being as big a problem as you state. I happen to play non-creature combo ofcourse ;).
I do agree that both cards are strong and some of the more powerful cards in this format, but my point of view is that some powerful cards are needed to keep the format alive.
If you remove all usable tutors you remove some possibilities on the other hand if you have to many combo runs rampant.
You could ban both cards because of their powerlevel but there has to be more reasons, and sofar I haven't heard any other reasons that really makes a case for any bannings. Easy to splash? Most of the really powerful cards are "easy" to splash. Most really good cards improves your chance to win..
I would ban jace 2.0 before any of the tutors, I do feel it's more of a problem compared to these two. Ban the cards they search for before you ban the tutors I always say..
I agree that some powerful cards are needed to keep the format alive. I just don't think it should be tutors for a 100 card singleton format. Demonic Tutor is really really good because it will always solve any problem unless the whole game has already been screwed already. Ban the cards you would tutor for instead? Well I don't think banning all lands (when mana screwed) and all win conditions (When not) is a good idea. I think the best argument is: Demonic Tutor should be banned before any of the other tutors because it's easy the best one of them all including Vampiric Tutor. Maybe just ban the best tutor in the format and unban one of the weaker ones? Jace TMS should never be banned. It's only a good Planeswalker. Gifts sets up comboes in almost any deck and the times it doesn't; it's just a Fact or Fiction but maybe still better. Gifts Ungiven also keep out underpowered cards like Life from the Loam from the format, which is kind of a bad skill to have for a tutor spell.
Quote from: coldcrow on 24-02-2011, 03:30:08 AM
Also: if you ban all the good tutors the variance of viable decks will shrink dramatically, possibly leading to the already visible meta of stax vs naya vs rector (I am exxagerating of course). True non-prison control also needs tutors to find their wincons or solutions. I don't understand why ET + MT + VT are banned anyways. I find the current meta less interesting than a possible more combo/controllish meta with them. IT doesn't matter where the interaction happens, on the board or on the stack, but a slight push for control would be good. The only problem I can see right now would be that Rector gets 2 more tutors :)
I tend to agree with you. I too think Demonic Tutor should be banned and the rest should be unbanned for being far less powerful.
Quote from: Crusader on 24-02-2011, 09:57:35 AM
Trinisphere:
Banned when Staxx started to become a prominent deck. T1 or T2 Sphere is just too much for many decks to overcome. It does not happen every game, but often enough to steal games from the start. Vs Beatdown it is like a time walk x2, changing into a one sided arcane lab.
The Tutors:
The one mana instant T. are incredible powerful, because you can
1: react eot --> full mana available
2: can tutor up t1 a powerful t2 play
Oath Example: T1 Vamp/ET -> T2 Oath
T2 Demonic -> T3 Oath
I guess everybody agrees, that tapping out turn 2 and three opens more windows for aggro to stay in play then just tapping out turn 2. Bashing for 6-9 extra damage is also nice.
3: The 1 mana Ts. are only inferior if you topdeck them and if you need an answer right now.
Jace 2.0:
If a card should be banned, i would say this guy. If this planeswalker stays on board for 2-3 Turns it is highly unlikely that you will win the game.
I disagree with your Trinisphere theory. It won't ever hurt aggro enough. Only if you get it on turn 1 with Mishra's Workshop but that's highly unlikely and should really not be taken into acount. Only Staxx will be able to run this card (and this combination of two cards) and even in Staxx it won't be awesome. I won't play it in mine. The Council hasn't been able to answer why it's banned so far. It's been several years since the banning of it and it hasn't been on the watch list for unbannings ever since.
About the 1 mana tutors.:
1. Yes you will have full mana on the turn AFTER you cast the tutor. You will also have this with Demonic Tutor. Demonic will only also offer you the option to cast the spell right away if you have the x+2 mana available.
2. Yes it is possible to cast Oath turn 2 by drawing Oath before turn 2 or by playing a underpowered tutor spell for it. If it gets countered (Oath) then sad face: Demonic would have been better. If you're playing against aggro where there is no counter spells, then it doesn't make much difference if it's turn 2 or 3. Oath will still win the game.
3. No the 1 mana tutors are inferior in all situations except turn 1 into turn 2 play because of the enormeous downside they have compared to Demonic Tutor.
Quote from: Nastaboi on 24-02-2011, 11:43:59 AM
I did not state that I want Jace banned nor that banning should be based on my figures only. I was just representig those figures and letting you to draw your own conclusions.
We don't want to all tutors banned, just the very best ones. I feel that Demonic is more powerful than Enlightened and Mystical, but many think it's other way around.
Control is find without tutors. In deckbuilding, there are a thing that's called consistency. When you put enough answers and some card draw in your deck, you'll be able to eventually gain control, and then win just what you happen to have that time. In my UW control recently published in the blog, I chose not to splash Demonic as I felt no need for it and went for a red splash instead. Control without Gifts? You'd propably just add another card that is good against aggro in its place, and have one less card that decides control mirrors in the spot. Aggro is not getting any stronger.
BTW, the only time I have lost with Jace is when an opponent had an immediate answer.
Yep I too think that Gifts really decides the control match-ups. Even more so than Jace does. Jace is a fun card and not a tutor card. Jace should never be banned. I don't believe your last part about only losing if they have answer immediately (The same or the following turn). That sounds really unlikely.
Quote from: Tiggupiru on 24-02-2011, 01:42:25 PM
Jace is sick in control mirror, but it's not like Library of Alexandria-sick, which you can't counter, and have only limited answers. Jace can be fought with counters, bounce and creatures (O-Ring works too). If your opponent is playing blue-based control, you really should be wary of the possibility of him having a Jace and not tap-out to play semi-irrelevant cards when opponent has access to four mana. Keeping up the counter mana can work as well, because in HL, you can't just draw and play another copy of sick planeswalkers, so it's kind of risky to play your trump cards into untapped islands. Just give the card the proper respect and you shouldn't lose too many games to it.
Against aggro, Jace, Market Sculptor is either a bad speed bump, or it doesn't really accomplish anything too relevant. Naturally, it wins against aggro once the board is under control, but same is true for any finisher. Banning Jace sounds pretty ridiculous if you ask me.
I mentioned this last time bannings were discussed, but what comes to ET and MT in Pattern-Rector: Enlightened is not going to be sick in that deck. I cut Idyllic long time ago from it, and while ET is definitely going in, it's still very limited. Pattern is the worst combo-piece, but on the upside, you can find Recurring Nightmare (O-Ring, too), which makes up for the lost CA. Mystical is (I think at least) decent in the version that splashes for blue, but the splash is still because of Gifts, MT is just freebie. I'd see no reason to splash blue, if Gifts were banned.
I totally agree with you
Quote from: LasH on 24-02-2011, 04:03:09 PM
In my opinion, its not necessary to ban/unban any cards right now. The format is healthy.
To go more into detail:
Gifts Ungiven - Life from the Loam: I disagree that GU needs a ban. In my opinion, banning Lftl was the right choice. There is a huge difference in lftl and crucible. You have a big draw Engine with Lftl + cycle lands. 2nd argument: If your crucible gets countered, you need another card to revive it, while lftl can "revive" itself. 3rd Argument: Lftl + dredge slows down any game.
Trinisphere: I like this card too. I even tested it for fun recently, and my conclusion is: It straight wins any game with turn 1 workshop + trinisphere. Thats why i agree that its better not touched.
Wheel: Would make a "i win" for any burn deck, if it resolves.
Demonic: Should stay in the format. I don't feel like it's an "auto win" or to powerful. And the format does need some tutor's.
Jace: Yes one of the strongest cards in the format. But loosing to jace does not feel frustrating for me (yet).
It's a very good point to make that the format is healthy right now. It is! I think so too. However I don't think we should take that into consideration when speculating about which cards to suggest banned or not. To me it sounds like a Sunk Cost that many right decisions where made in the past. All your arguments on Life from the Loam vs. Crucible fail on one level: If you ban Gifts and Intuition, none of them will still be matter.
1. You don't have a big draw engine if you haven't tutored the cycle lands into the graveyard with either Gifts or Intution.
2. Yes Life from the Loam is revivable for the cheap prize of one card draw but that won't do much if you haven't been tutoring for Wasteland or the cycle lands with either Gifts or Intuition. Life from the Loam will now only work alright with Fetch land which isn't amazing.
3. I don't think Life from the Loam + dredge slows down any game if no cards has been tutored for the graveyard. I'm not quite sure I understand your point here. Do you mean minutes are lost or ?
Yes Trinisphere + Workshop is really good against aggro and useless against control but not game winning against aggro and also a very unlikely situation to find yourself in by turn 1.
I agree on Wheel now.
I think you're right: The format does need some tutors. I don't think it should be this one. I really like having it around because it's just always auto-include in ANY deck with access to black mana. I think the weaker ones should be unbanned and this one be banned.
I agree on Jace as well.
Quote from: Mythrandir on 24-02-2011, 10:49:05 PM
I think this is true for most (good) PW. As a control player any garruk, ajani, elsepth, koth, tez, sarkhan left unchecked is going to get you killed, unless dealt within a couple of turns.
I've won and lost with PW on the table... on my side and on the otherside. PW will see more and more play as we see more of them, so we just have to adjust to it. Jace doesn't seem power broken.
Agreed!
Quote from: Kassow-Rossing on 07-03-2011, 06:08:15 PM
Quote from: Nastaboi on 24-02-2011, 11:43:59 AM
BTW, the only time I have lost with Jace is when an opponent had an immediate answer.
I don't believe your last part about only losing if they have answer immediately (The same or the following turn). That sounds really unlikely.
Hey, I only wrote about the games I have kept record.
Wheel is actually quite bad card in RDW/Burn, but why believe a guy who plays other formats, too?
One thing about Loam is that dredge as an archtype is very dead without it, and it was a fun deck that, unlike in other formats, required some skill to win games.
on Life from the Loam:
i think we need loam back. just one card to reanimate your lands (crucible, i do not count the bad ones)is not sufficent.
why not just ban the cycle-lands (the 5 which cycle for 1 mana)? no one plays them when loam is banned, at least not in competetive decks.and if you can only cycle your 2 mana cycle-lands the loam engine becomes much less effective. and without library and the good cycle lands, loam wont dominate control mirrors.
When I played Loam, in the end I didn't ever bother with cycle lands, because just fetching Waste/Volrath's/Academy Ruins/etc. was so much better. And if I got to play Gifts I often just fetched win instead of cute land synergies.
@Nastaboi : good point. i just forgot about the wasteland/loam engine...
Quote from: Kassow-Rossing on 07-03-2011, 06:08:15 PM
Only if you get it on turn 1 with Mishra's Workshop but that's highly unlikely and should really not be taken into acount.
ok, then we can unban Library of Alexandria again. wait, right, it happened quite often that 1st or 2nd turn LoA dominated. The Mirage Tutors power is more situational then Demonics. Demonic has a constant raw power, but the ability to react is often awesome (simple example is playing tutor in response to discard). And even if they are generally less powerfull (= only very very strong), i doubt it would be healthy to have too many tutors in the format.
Btw here is the original council text from 2006 (took me like 20 seconds to find it on this page btw...)
Trinisphere kann durch Mishra's Workshop (und auch andere Karten) ein 1st Turn Lock erzeugen, welches für die meisten Decks nicht mehr zu durchbrechen ist. Besonders das GP-Siegerdeck Stax bedient sich der Trinisphere, um hierdurch ein Agieren und Reagieren des Gegners unmöglich zu machen. Um solche frühen Entscheidungen im Spiel zu verringern und die Chance zu wahren, wieder in ein Spiel zurück finden zu können, wurde die Trinisphere gebanned.
BTW: "i would not play this card" can not be an argument.
Quote from: Crusader on 07-03-2011, 08:53:08 PM
Quote from: Kassow-Rossing on 07-03-2011, 06:08:15 PM
Only if you get it on turn 1 with Mishra's Workshop but that's highly unlikely and should really not be taken into acount.
ok, then we can unban Library of Alexandria again. wait, right, it happened quite often that 1st or 2nd turn LoA dominated. The Mirage Tutors power is more situational then Demonics. Demonic has a constant raw power, but the ability to react is often awesome (simple example is playing tutor in response to discard). And even if they are generally less powerfull (= only very very strong), i doubt it would be healthy to have too many tutors in the format.
Btw here is the original council text from 2006 (took me like 20 seconds to find it on this page btw...)
Trinisphere kann durch Mishra's Workshop (und auch andere Karten) ein 1st Turn Lock erzeugen, welches für die meisten Decks nicht mehr zu durchbrechen ist. Besonders das GP-Siegerdeck Stax bedient sich der Trinisphere, um hierdurch ein Agieren und Reagieren des Gegners unmöglich zu machen. Um solche frühen Entscheidungen im Spiel zu verringern und die Chance zu wahren, wieder in ein Spiel zurück finden zu können, wurde die Trinisphere gebanned.
BTW: "i would not play this card" can not be an argument.
Having Workshop + Trinisphere can't be compared to just having LoA 1. Turn.. although I think Trinisphere is still very powerful and should not be touched for the next time.
Quote from: Crusader on 07-03-2011, 08:53:08 PM
Quote from: Kassow-Rossing on 07-03-2011, 06:08:15 PM
Only if you get it on turn 1 with Mishra's Workshop but that's highly unlikely and should really not be taken into acount.
ok, then we can unban Library of Alexandria again. wait, right, it happened quite often that 1st or 2nd turn LoA dominated. The Mirage Tutors power is more situational then Demonics. Demonic has a constant raw power, but the ability to react is often awesome (simple example is playing tutor in response to discard). And even if they are generally less powerfull (= only very very strong), i doubt it would be healthy to have too many tutors in the format.
Btw here is the original council text from 2006 (took me like 20 seconds to find it on this page btw...)
Trinisphere kann durch Mishra's Workshop (und auch andere Karten) ein 1st Turn Lock erzeugen, welches für die meisten Decks nicht mehr zu durchbrechen ist. Besonders das GP-Siegerdeck Stax bedient sich der Trinisphere, um hierdurch ein Agieren und Reagieren des Gegners unmöglich zu machen. Um solche frühen Entscheidungen im Spiel zu verringern und die Chance zu wahren, wieder in ein Spiel zurück finden zu können, wurde die Trinisphere gebanned.
BTW: "i would not play this card" can not be an argument.
Crusader..
1. Do you really think it is JUST AS LIKELY to have both Mishra's Workshop and Trinisphere in starting 7 hand as having Library of Alexandria in starting 7 hand?? Obviously you need to study some math in school.
2. You are so right when you say the format shouldn't have too many tutors. I agree. I just don't think the best one should be unbanned. I love it myself, but it's really difficult to explain why the card isn't banned when Commander players or Legacy players ask why it isn't banned.
3. The copy-paste you found I don't understand. This is an english site so you couldn't have found it on this site. Maybe on the German sister-site? Yes the fact that I wouldn't play the card in my Staxx deck is quite the argument! Trinisphere will be terrible in any non-Staxx deck and I believe even in Staxx it won't be really good. That is a quite valid argument.
Quote from: Kassow-Rossing on 07-03-2011, 06:08:15 PM
If you ban Gifts and Intuition, none of them will still be matter.
1. You don't have a big draw engine if you haven't tutored the cycle lands into the graveyard with either Gifts or Intution.
2. Yes Life from the Loam is revivable for the cheap prize of one card draw but that won't do much if you haven't been tutoring for Wasteland or the cycle lands with either Gifts or Intuition. Life from the Loam will now only work alright with Fetch land which isn't amazing.
3. I don't think Life from the Loam + dredge slows down any game if no cards has been tutored for the graveyard. I'm not quite sure I understand your point here. Do you mean minutes are lost or ?
Yes Trinisphere + Workshop is really good against aggro and useless against control but not game winning against aggro and also a very unlikely situation to find yourself in by turn 1.
I'm not sure about that. Sure, gifts + intuition make Lftl broken. I agree on that. But on the otherside..Now we have a pretty useless intuition in the format. Do u still know any broken combinition with Intuition? I didnt saw this card since the lftl ban. With so many cheap land tutor's these days (expedition map, sylvan scrying, demonic tutor etc) its no problem to get cycle lands online with lftl. And then we have again: "upkeep...lftl...ok?...ok...lftl. Main phase: lftl....dredge....lfll...dredge draw...lfll....ZzZzzzZz) - which leads to point 3. It costs time, its annoying, slow and boring. Doesnt matter if u play it with Wasteland or cycle lands.
Without Gifts u just need to build your deck a bit different, but in my opinion, all games still lead to what i pointed out before. I rather have gifts + intuition in the format, than lfl.
About trinisphere. Its not as unlikely as u think to open with that start. That start was the reason to ban it, so it cant be so mega "random". TBH, maths never worked out in magic :). We all know that.
I absoluty dont see your point about "useless" vs control? Its amazing to stop all fof, daze, force spike, 2 mana counter. Not only on turn 1.
In the current meta, you dont see any control cards >3 cc. Am i wrong? I see a very fast format here with putting on turn 5 clocks. So not many decks run high cc cards anymore. Just watch the manakurve of the current decks. Naya, Bant, WW, Sligh and the aggro/control variants all need to play these cards to stop the fast meta. You won't find much cards >= cc3. Fact is, the first 3 turns in this format are the most important ones. A card which can stop this totally, will have ALOT influence on the format. I'm not saying break the format..but i said it before. In my testings, i always won with trinisphere.
And about demonic: You can't compare highlander to vintage or legacy. Ofc these ppl ask why its not banned. While in these format's you always search the same card (for example: Ancestral in vintage) you have alot of varietys in highlander. I can say from myself, that i never search the same card (ofc its still a limited pool about 10 cards) but thats the difference for me. Its not a copy of a ultra broken card which wins you straight the game, it mostly just an answer. And tutoring an answer to a thread is what magic is about for me. How many times do u tutor a thread? (I only see combo decks using dt for this).
Quote from: Kassow-Rossing on 08-03-2011, 01:33:35 PM
Crusader..
1. Do you really think it is JUST AS LIKELY to have both Mishra's Workshop and Trinisphere in starting 7 hand as having Library of Alexandria in starting 7 hand?? Obviously you need to study some math in school.
Obviously you are not used to irony... But if you really so single minded that you cry out loud "JUST AS LIKELY" and play captain obvious that 2 cards out of 7 are more unlikely then 1, then we can just break of any further discussions because i do not argue with fools and little kids.
Last attemp: Between Tomb, CoT, Mox D, C-Mox, signets etc. there are plenty of ways to put it down turn 1 or turn 2. understood or is that too complicated for you?
Quote from: Kassow-Rossing on 08-03-2011, 01:33:35 PM
3. The copy-paste you found I don't understand. This is an english site so you couldn't have found it on this site. Maybe on the German sister-site? Yes the fact that I wouldn't play the card in my Staxx deck is quite the argument! Trinisphere will be terrible in any non-Staxx deck and I believe even in Staxx it won't be really good. That is a quite valid argument.
Wrong and wrong.
First everybody should be able to get a rough translation via babelfish etc. If you do not get it, you are just lazy.
Second: No, it is not an argument, it is, as you said yourself, a "believe". Only because your staxx deck got posted here does not mean you are the staxx-pope or something.
Just answer: When sphere of resistance, making zoos one drops costing 2, and making mana drain cc3 is good enough, why should trinisphere be so much worse, considering it has a much higher impact.
As i see, someone has already answered the "useless vs control" nonsense.
Quote from: Crusader on 08-03-2011, 04:26:30 PM
Obviously you are not used to irony... But if you really so single minded that you cry out loud "JUST AS LIKELY" and play captain obvious that 2 cards out of 7 are more unlikely then 1, then we can just break of any further discussions because i do not argue with fools and little kids.
Hehe Crusader you were not being ironic :) You actually meant your words straight on. Try re-reading your post. You said we could just as well unban Library as have Trinisphere unbanned because they both ruin the game from turn 1. I doubt Trinisphere will be cast turn 1 very often. The whole childish theme you have going on in that message is very offending. I think you should look at your member-status and maybe accept you're not so experienced yet. At least try not to insult players who have been playing this format since 2006.
The copy-paste is not found on the english site. I do not find myself in the German site so I would never find the copy-paste.
Useless vs. Control still stands. If your opponent doesn't have Daze or Force by turn 1 where Trinisphere always will be cast (sarcasm), they don't have it turn 7 very often and thus Trinisphere won't do much against Daze and Force of Will. Most control cards cost 3 or more so I don't see it ruin any control deck. Winter Orb should be banned if that is the case. Winter Orb kills control.
Now that's funny. Crusader is one of the absolute pioneers of Highlander. I counted him in on tournaments I organized back in 1996/97. From its very start, Crusader has been an advisory member of the HL council. You probably shouldn't be talking about experience in that way...
How could I know that when his status says Newbie??
Jesus wake up
I would say this thread has served its purpose. A lock or moderation is needed.
Quote from: pyyhttu on 10-03-2011, 11:18:47 PM
I would say this thread has served its purpose. A lock or moderation is needed.
Agreed!
Anyways all this stuff about irony, name calling etc. is just nonsense. The written word is hard enough not to misundestand when your not using irony! Personal attacks and harsh words should be dealth with by admins or mods.
I'll just like to say that I feel it's healthy for the format that the players have a opputunity to give input on what could be done in the future. Maybe this isn't the right way, one of the things that sets this format aside from any DCI sanctioned formats is that the Council members are guys like us...
Quote from: PurlQg on 11-03-2011, 11:24:24 AM
Quote from: pyyhttu on 10-03-2011, 11:18:47 PM
I would say this thread has served its purpose. A lock or moderation is needed.
Agreed!
Anyways all this stuff about irony, name calling etc. is just nonsense. The written word is hard enough not to misundestand when your not using irony! Personal attacks and harsh words should be dealth with by admins or mods.
I'll just like to say that I feel it's healthy for the format that the players have a opputunity to give input on what could be done in the future. Maybe this isn't the right way, one of the things that sets this format aside from any DCI sanctioned formats is that the Council members are guys like us...
I totally agree. There was no way I could sense Crusader should have used irony or not!
I felt like I had a few points reveal and discussions to start so I created this thread. I seriously don't hope it's gonna be taken ill up because I only meant for the format to get even better. Maybe my points were wrong but I really wanted them out there. I consider this thread closed.
And.. Du er fra Danmark? Hvad hedder du og hvorfor har jeg aldrig hørt om dig før? ;)
Patrick over and out