the data is of no use. i have been playing chain of vapors in all blue based midrange decks for a long time and nobody has picked it up eventhough its clearly correct and obviously the best card ever in those decks. i wanted to help and support but the data actually goes nowhere.
Edit by pyyhttu: Chain of Vapor topic separated from Berlin tournament reports from here: http://www.magicplayer.org/forum/index.php?topic=668.msg10559#msg10559
I also doubt that data of a <10 person regional tournament has any use regarding the evaluation of the format. But it can be "nice" to promote new deck ideas and showing deck development progress which is better than nothing in a format which has no other content available. So I am happy with every deck list which gets online.
@ tonytahiti: Your statement sounds like you think a great deal of yourself. Is it possible that the rest of the community thinks that playing Chain of Vapor is "clearly incorrect" and "obviously not the best choice" in blue based midrange due to the conditional behavior of the card? Actually the card sees no play outside of combo decks due to a good reason. This does not belong to the topic, so I will not go into detail here but as you know better than me there are even uncommon game states where Chain of Vapor can be unplayable.
@MMD: Shots fired!
kenshin seems very excited. if those are "shots" for you, you shoudlnt come near a real argument.
been playing chain forever now and every player in berlin has picked it up (even jonny who is pretty resistant to new cards, he plays it in almost all his blue decks). we play with the card and say its correct, you havent tested the card and havent played with it and say its incorrect. umm :).
the way i said that chain of vapors is a must rubbed you the wrong way. instead of it bothering you that "i think a great deal of myself", maybe test cards that are successful somewhere else. that makes you a better player.
Quote from: tonytahiti on 05-10-2014, 11:52:03 AM
i have been playing chain of vapors in all blue based midrange decks for a long time and nobody has picked it up eventhough its clearly correct and obviously the best card ever in those decks. i wanted to help and support but the data actually goes nowhere.
how do you know that? are you some kind of visionary?
maybe those guys just do not reach top spots in the tourney they play in or just wanna keep their decklists hidden?
Quote from: tonytahiti on 09-10-2014, 10:25:08 PM
every player in berlin has picked it up (even jonny al saidi who is pretty resistant to new cards, he plays it in almost all his blue decks)
something wrong maybe ?!
"you think a great deal of yourself"
"are you some kind of visionary?"
guys you give me way too much credit :) and you are way too concerned about what i think about myself.
people in berlin saw what the card does and integrated it in their decks..i dont even know what "something wrong maybe" means, it isnt clear what you are trying to say. now it seems like you two are just offended and its not about the card anymore. pls stay on topic, thank you.
Well it sure is a nice card. But without having it tested extensively it just seems a bit lackluster. Sure it only costs U, which is nice, if you strive for board presence, your opponent will probably bounce one of your permanents too. That is why this card is usually used in combo decks that do not have board presence until they kill you. So the problem for me is understanding why this card, contrary to my chain of thought, is supposed to be superior to, let's say Cyclonic Rift.
I have never considered the card, although I have seen people play it because I just fail to understand why it would be better than other options.
Quote from: tonytahiti on 09-10-2014, 11:00:34 PM
.i dont even know what "something wrong maybe" means, it isnt clear what you are trying to say.
sorry, my fault - i should have been a bit more clearly
so lets try to help ya to understand what I've trying to say:
if anyone says to me:
"the data is of no use...chain of vapor is obviously one of the best cards because I play it for years but noone ever picked it up"
and a bit later he would say to me:
"every player in berlin picked it up"
I would ... ??? ... ::) ...
you cant be serious. i hope you are joking. if you really didnt understand the difference between picking up the data from mtgpulse and picking up the chain of vapors tech life in berlin, i am out of words. shocked even.
the data went nowehre. the decklist data on mtgpulse..nobody ever picked up my chain of vapors inclusion from there. in berlin - FACE TO FACE- REAL LIFE- everybody picked it up. i cant make it more clear.
ah - thanks alot, now i've understood !
.... but i still wonder how you can know that noone in karlsruhe picked up chain of vapors ... but I'm pretty sure you can explain it to me sometimes ...
@kenshin
chain of vapors gives you an incredible amount of play. while one says its "conditional", i could argue that its one of the most non conditional cards: bounce every nonland permanent for one blue. that part happens. what happens afterwards is gamestate depended and can be influenced.
in the first few turns chain of vapors is cyclonic rift for half the mana cost. its incredibly rare that you bounce the best (most likely most mana hungry) permanent and they are willing to sacrifice a land..thats too much of a tempoloss, even if they bounce your biggest threat, you each got something bounced but you basically stone rained them for one blue instant speed.
regarding "the play" it gives you. i am gonna list some scenarios which arent the most common but which have happened before and which showcase how incredible versitile chain is:
1. opponent has nemesis and fauna shaman on board. you have kavu (and one blue open). he plays shriekmaw on your kavu. you bounce your kavu with chain, then sac a land, bounce his fauna shaman. he then is forced to destroy his own nemesis with shriekmaw and passes the turn with shriekmaw only. its your turn and you play kavu on shriekmaw. the gamestate was looking horrific for you, now it looks quite good and youre ahead on board.
2. you flood a bit vs control and beat down with snapcaster, clique, you got wall of omens laying around too. opponent doesnt have the best draw either but finds supreme verdict. you response by bouncing your three creatures (you gotta sac two lands to do that which is close to irrelevant since lands are a ressource that you got plenty of). eot you play snapcaster and clique for value, your turn you play omens etc. you probably turned card disadvantage (supreme verdict being a three for one) into card advantage (lands arent actually "cards" at this point and your creatures have etb triggers.
before people argue those are christmaswonderland gamestates: they are not. if you are good at creating gamestates where chain of vapors does alot it will DO ALOT.
Quote from: tonytahiti on 10-10-2014, 09:22:33 AM
2. you flood a bit vs control and beat down with snapcaster, clique, you got wall of omens laying around too. opponent doesnt have the best draw either but finds supreme verdict. you response by bouncing your three creatures (you gotta sac two lands to do that which is close to irrelevant since lands are a ressource that you got plenty of). eot you play snapcaster and clique for value, your turn you play omens etc. you probably turned card disadvantage (supreme verdict being a three for one) into card advantage (lands arent actually "cards" at this point and your creatures have etb triggers.
I just wonder if you can sacrifice more than one land for making more copies of CoV? I haven´t found any relevant answers only some chating with judge in the link below. As my personal 2 cents - I think it wouldn´t work like returning three creatures (permanents), only 2 at maximum.
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/magic-rulings/magic-rulings-archives/254681-chain-of-vapor
But I think Chain of Vapor can be very good overall, but there are some more bounce spells around to play, so it depends on your personal opinion and playstyle.
You copy the spell including the copy clause. So as long as you sac lands you can copy it. You can not sac multiple lanes to copy it several.Times at once.but each copy lets you generate another's copy.
Well it may not be magical Christmas land but those.cases are incredibly rare. And apart from those it is lacking in power. Other bounce spells are not as cheap but come with added benefits or without drawback.
What if your opponent just bounces.his etb trigger guys? Aside from constructed examples, what is it it regularly does? Rift allows you to come back from a lot of unfavourable board states. Venser beats down and can carry swords. Command is nuts.
I am not saying this card isn't good. But jamming it in every blue deck seems a bit too much.
Quote from: tonytahiti on 09-10-2014, 10:25:08 PM
you havent tested the card and havent played with it and say its incorrect. umm :).
the way i said that chain of vapors is a must rubbed you the wrong way. instead of it bothering you that "i think a great deal of myself", maybe test cards that are successful somewhere else. that makes you a better player.
No. I wrote the whole community thinks it is incorrect as the card obviously sees no play outside of Combo.
Actually I personally don´t really care that you and whole Berlin plays this card because I:
- Can understand the card text
- Can connect this to potential applications
- Can connect this to opportunities and threats
- Made my own experiences since the card was printed
- Know the options
- Know what a bounce spell should basically do for me in a tempo deck (and none of your examples are matching these criteria. I could spam you with examples where the card is terrible or at least worse than the available options)
You tell us "data is of no use" because the card is not listed which is a unique understanding of the data available.
You tell us that when you (and your local crowd) play this card it is obviously the correct choice and all others are wrong.
Very Interesting.
The know-it-all behavior made me to write my post; it's not the missing deck lists or even a single card. If you want to find acceptance in the community I would advise to work on your communication skills or accept people turn away from what you have to say.
While I agree that Chain of Vapor allows some really neat plays especially in repsonse to Wasteland effects and/or with Senseis Top in play I really dislike the first scenario.
The Fauna Shaman guy is really playing like the biggest idiot. First of all casting Shriekmaw on a creature that is completely outclassed on board is not the best choice. I would
rather use the Shaman and play Bloodbraid Elf/Siege Rhino/Edric/Witness or some such depending on the game situation. If I acutally had played the Shriekmaw and my Fauna Shaman would be getting chained I would also sac a land and simply bounce my TNN. While the Fauna Shaman guy would have lost a lot of tempo this is still not a terrible outcome for him.
mmd, you seem to be getting emotional and tell me about my wrong doings instead of staying on topic. you say you dont care but your whole posts screams that you care alot. the -16 karma guy tells me how to find acceptance in the community, come on, we are not in 5th grade, its not always about acceptance, this is not some mafia clan family.
and you say "as it sees obviously no play otuside of combo". the last magiccardmarket tournament in erfurt (32 players or something) had two non combo decks in the final (one has splinter twincombo in the deck but is not a combo deck really). both finalists play chain of vapor. i dont know why you say that. doing research first helps.
christophoh: i agree, that he could have bounced his nemesis and his play wasnt optimal (the card can be a little confusing to players). but there are lots of scenarios similar to that where bouncing your creature in response to removal and then saccing a land to bounce theirs creates totally different gamestates for one blue, which is worth mentioning.
Beneficial chain scenarios are not rare and its not even close to magical christmas wonderland its more like the staple district which is a suburb of value city.
Imagine a card which could do the following things: bolt, stp, stone rain, fog, ancestral recall, faiths shield or boomerang. What would you say should be the mana cost of that card 6,5,4? How about ONE FUCKING BLUE MANA?
Comparing chain with 4 mana bounce spells shows that you are very misled in thinking that card is a bounce spell in some kind but really its not it is all the things above and even more. Cyclonic rift is not even close to playable. Maybe in some Tier 3,452 staxx decks which will lose more games to the "you cant bounce your own stuff"clause than winning games with the 7 mana mode.
Besides saying you can evaluate a card because you know the rules text is a weak approach since we all know that feeling to discover sleeper cards which came to light simply seeing them in action. (Esp. in our format were we have so many interactions and no one can predict every outcome)
Now I get that you are all upset beceause it looks like Tonytahiti is saying: Berlin > all but hes not. He simply wanted to show you guys that we encountered many players from other cities and regions which thought chain is some kind of random card or even worse a bad card. I remember a time with another berlin-export card, sulfur elemental, were players said: "what a random "hate" card" and didnt realize what role that card fulfils. Same thing with scryb ranger which I promoted in 2009 in my UG and a lot of people said "what a bad card" simply beceause they overlooked the wide range of applications it provided.
I dont want to waste your and my time by presenting dozens of scenarios were chain shines. Trust me when I say the + side overweights the - side by A LOT like not even close.
Btw we dont say you should play the card because we do but because its correct to play it ;)
Quote from: tonytahiti on 10-10-2014, 01:17:53 PM
mmd, you seem to be getting emotional and tell me about my wrong doings instead of staying on topic. you say you dont care but your whole posts screams that you care alot. the -16 karma guy tells me how to find acceptance in the community, come on, we are not in 5th grade, its not always about acceptance, this is not some mafia clan family.
and you say "as it sees obviously no play otuside of combo". the last magiccardmarket tournament in erfurt (32 players or something) had two non combo decks in the final (one has splinter twincombo in the deck but is not a combo deck really). both finalists play chain of vapor. i dont know why you say that. doing research first helps.
OK, so I am off topic. So what is the topic then? "Chain of Vapor is the best tech ever and I want my credit for it but I could cry that nobody cares except some of my hometown buddies which made the 1st and 2nd place in a 30 person tournament with my tech"?
I can assure you that I really don´t care about this. I care that some guys from Berlin post like they are superior to the rest of the community.
Regarding your Karma "argument": The negative Karma on this account is more or less completely from the "Spoils party" during the mulligan discussion. As always, people out of arguments threaten to start a world war or hit a "bad karma button".
@tonytahiti: Cut the weak ad hominem arguments. What rubs me the wrong way is that the quintessence of your posts is: "I am so smart. I found a card that is awesome. I convinced others that is awesome. You are stupid because you do not agree that it is awesome. I want my credit for being awesome!"
Instead of a discussion you started a chain of vapor circlejerk. And what bothers me the most is, it does not even have anything to do with the topic that reporting decklists is beneficial or not. What you say is "People read my few decklists, they are not impressed enough. Because they do not drop everything and do as I do, sharing deck lists has no point." That is just plain silly. Sharing Decklists is not sharing absolute truths but inspirations.
I can come up with realistic examples how certain cards just flat out won games too. Does it make playing them correct in every circumstance? I think not.
Two overexaggerated examples:
1) My opponent has one life, no cards in hand, only lands in play. I play Squire. My opponent draws a land and plays it. I attack for one and win. Your opponent having one life and drawing dead is not uncommon.
2) I have six cards in hand, 10 life and my opponent attacks with Stormbreath Dragon. He activates Monstrosity. I play One with Nothing. Next turn I attack with my Creeping Tar Pit for lethal damage. Stormbreath Dragon is a card that is played in some decks. So it is not an unrealistic example.
And I could add scenarios where opponents straight up misplay, like you did with the player who played Shriekmaw without necessity and then did not bounce his own TNN. That does not make the card great but your opponents screw up devastating.
What is relevant is not, what this card does, when it shines, but what it usually does. And I have my reasonable doubts, that it is as good as you want to make it seem.
Strangely enough Cyclonic Rift does for me, what Chain of Vapor seems to do for you. Normally it is an okay card but sometimes it just flat-out wins games. It is only playable in control decks where you realistically hit 7 Mana in most of the games. But it does make for great comebacks/resets.
Some cards are obviously best in slot (Mana drain, Demonic Tutor, True Name Nemesis) while other cards are debatable. You claim that Chain of Vapor is such a best in slot card. While it is obviously great in clutch tempo matches and has added benefits making it a solid card, I just can not see, given your deck has another plan/enough mana to cast spells for more than one blue, why it should be one such card.
Having played a lot of games with Chain of Vapor in my Breakfast-deck i cannot understand the hype about this card. Even in a combo-shell i sometimes hated the card because of it's drawback and had to play around it alot.
And i'm not willing to believe there are so many benefitial situations for chain where it's not only a normal bounce-spell with a slight drawback for less mana. I tested the card for different decks, like UGBw-Richter and UR, and was never satified with it.
And for the discussion about publishing decklist: I copied Jonnys decklist from Erfurt, tested it and had the cards sleeved out two evenings later as the deck wasn't fitting my playstyle and i didn't like many of the cardchoices.
The problem here isn't people not using the data you publish, but people seeing your decks, testing them and dismissing them. Or get inspired by them. But you cannot estimate people just copying your decks without question.
Quote from: SirGalahadHaving played a lot of games with Chain of Vapor in my Breakfast-deck i cannot understand the hype about this card. Even in a combo-shell i sometimes hated the card because of it's drawback and had to play around it alot.
That's probably because Chain of Vapor was in a wrong shell, especially if you use Hermit Druid in your Cephalid-combo. I guess you noticed getting into situations in which you couldn't use Chain of Vapor since it would let your opponent to bounce your combo outlet too?
Chain of Vapor has its uses, and they are specific. Everyone of us are blind to certain degree to the card choices we make, especially when they are pet cards.I've been known to jam Crop Rotation in to every deck that runs green, and come to learn it's not always correct thing to do.
In fact your debate is really interesting, and can be summed up in a more global debate :
* When building, is there a "theoretical best" deck (in a given metagame, of course) or is there only a "personal best" deck, which is only suited to you ?
Sam Black thinks it's relative to you. You like your cards, you do well with them :
http://www.starcitygames.com/article/27628_Make-The-Right-Play-For-You.html
Craig Wescoe thinks there is a best deck, and you should adapt to play it well :
http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/article.asp?ID=11578
I believe that it's relative to you. For example I really hate Hymn to Tourach in Abzhan tempo, because for me the deck is all about destroying the mana base, and if you destroy the manabase of your opponent he can't play his spells, so there is no need to discard him for two manas and doing nothing else (you're playing aggro, you need to build your board presence !). Usually noone agrees with me, but when I do have that card in hand, it never does magical things. Either I prefer playing something else on turn2, and then on turn3 my opponent has nothing interesting left in hand, either i play it and discard cards I don't care...
So everyone should play cards he likes, be good with them, and be happy ! :p
For Chain of Vapor, I don't know if in Highlander Aluren is a viable choice, but I've been playing Aluren in Legacy for quite a long time, and it was one of my best cards. I have Aluren on the board, so 4 lands, and bouncing 5 times my creatures makes me win every time I do it !
I agree that playing "your pet deck" helps to win, mostly because you have the most experience with. I doubt that playing "your cards" is helpful as the card does what it does, certainly in regards to the deck strategy/design.
For me: I will most probably be more successful on tournaments if I would play Bant all the time, but an old pet card like Stonecloaker will most probably lower the power level of the deck and is not the best choice. I can also write heroic stories what Stonecloaker did for me in the past but in the end the card is to borderline to be a staple. Certainly if you have a meta full of Reanimators he will be set again.
Another aspect is that pet decks tend to disregard basis rules of successul deck design. Playing GG/UU/WW in Bant is obsolete IMO with the new mulligan and should be reduced to UGw or GWu. Having Courser, Counterspell and Hero of Bladehold in the same deck might look like a good idea for "your pet deck" on paper but is not the best idea if you want to have the best Bant tournament deck as you will very often not be able to play Counter/Courser/Hero in T2-4.
I wasn't talking about "pet deck" which is, I think, a bad choice in general in big events (but a good choice in general in small events).
I was really in the "card that works for me" situation. For ex. I play darkblast in the sideboard of Robots in Modern, and it's one of the best cards for me (made me a few dollars @ GP Lyon), even though nobody plays it. I just like this card a lot, and I'm able to make situations in which it just win games. For ex. :
* Darkblast + Canonist => gg against Infect.
* Darkblast + Tarmo battle => gg.
* Darkblast @ upkeep, dredge, Darkblast => kills your x/2 and you maybe didn't see it coming.
* Darkblast + Delve...
This is a card in which I believe, and which passes the cut in most cases (well, it doesn't pass the cut in Duel Commander because the metagame is too control and it's a dead card in too much cases). Still, I see that this conviction is not very well shared by others. I don't care, it works for me :o)
When you like a card, it's not a problem when you draw it at the wrong time. When you don't like a card, and you draw it at a bad timing, you'll be psychologically tilted. It makes a whole lot of difference, because Magic has its psycho side I think.
My two cents:
a) Playing a card that is objectively bad just because you like it = not a good idea
b) Not playing a card that is objectively good (and should be in your deck because of power-level or because it strategically belongs there) just because you dislike it = not a good idea
c) Playing an objectively good card over a different objectively good card because of preference = sure, why not
To elaborate on c): It is not always evident which card is the better card overall when comparing 2 or more cards that could go into a specific slot. It is often times meta-dependent and cannot be perfectly assessed by any means available to us.
Your Darkblast slot is a perfect example of this. The card is obviously very good in some scenarios and rather bad in others (therefore it is a sideboard card in the first place). Now, Darkblast won't be as efficient as Dismember e.g. in the Twin-matchup.
I feel these "weigh-against-another-option-decisions" have become more frequent in modern day Magic, because the cards being printed currently don't differ as much in relative power level than those from eras longer ago.
* your a) occurs a lot of times, sure, we all agree there are cards which are really bad, because it's easy to find strictly superior ones (even if I just love the drawing of Bear Cub, I won't play it)
* your b) is tricky, because there is the manabase issue, the metagame issue, etc. which, for me, don't allow much cards in the "objectively good" pot. Take Brainstorm for example, guys will tell "omg just play it if you play blue". Well, maybe not if I can't play a lot of shufflers. I don't think there are much cards which are auto-include. Even basic lands for example are not auto include (in Duel Commander I play Abzhan with only one basic - ok I play many elves)
* your c) is what happens most of the time, and was my point. I'm really saying that it's relative. I prefer playing a card I believe in rather than a card I see in many decks, and that never made me think when I saw it in a match "wow, what a play, I like it !"
@ b) True, I consciously chose the word "objectively", fully aware that it is very hard and dependent on many different factors to determine which cards are objectively too good not to play.