I am thinking about building a Mono Black Control deck. With Creature Removal against aggro and hand disruption against combo and control. Then generate a lot of mana with Swamps, Extraplanar Lens and Cabal Coffers and win with a big creature like Reiver Deamon or Visara, or with a big consume spirit.
I bet aggro will be no problem, but I am worried about the control matchup and even more the combo matchup. Do you have general suggestions? Specific cards that I should play for better chances against combo/control?
Quote from: Ludwitch on 28-10-2008, 11:27:31 PM
I am thinking about building a Mono Black Control deck. With Creature Removal against aggro and hand disruption against combo and control. Then generate a lot of mana with Swamps, Extraplanar Lens and Cabal Coffers and win with a big creature like Reiver Deamon or Visara, or with a big consume spirit.
I bet aggro will be no problem, but I am worried about the control matchup and even more the combo matchup. Do you have general suggestions? Specific cards that I should play for better chances against combo/control?
I´ve seen some MBC, but never one that was competitive.
Reiver demon doesnt seem that good.
Why dont u try and build one and post a decklis?
Here are some cards as a starter:
Duress
thoughtseize
hymn to tourach
cabal therapy
Ravenous rats
damnation
shriekmaw
hypnotic specter
mesmeric fiend
dark ritual
chainers edict
bane of the living
mutilate
necro
yagmowth bargain
skeletal scrying
corrupt
demonic tutor
beseech the queen
Shred memory
(others card with transmute)
dusk urchins
onna queen of the fae (better that reiver IMO)
smother
However i feel thatif u built a "MBC" with splashed for U or W (and i know M = mono) would be better
W gives you more and better removal, land tax, that new "mesmeric fiend", castigate, vindicate, enlightened tutor,
U gives you intuition, gifts, brainstorm, impulse, some xU counters if you like, bounce spells with cantrips, shadow mage,etc..
How dou you feel about splashing?
hope to see some deck builds to comment :P
I was thinking about the bluesplash and the big creatures the Timmy in me wants to play. So the obvious question I asked myself was: Why not make it Reanimator? I had such a deck some years ago, but it was nothing more than a random pile of cards. I will throw together a decklist and post it in the deckclinic.
Quote from: Ludwitch on 30-10-2008, 10:33:39 PM
I was thinking about the bluesplash and the big creatures the Timmy in me wants to play. So the obvious question I asked myself was: Why not make it Reanimator? I had such a deck some years ago, but it was nothing more than a random pile of cards. I will throw together a decklist and post it in the deckclinic.
well, MBC (even with splash) is way different from a reanimator, but you should try it anyway, althoug things like hermit druid/oath would make nice additions to a reanimator.
The main problem with MBC in highlander is that alot of good black cards have you pay/lose life for, and this can be a problem since there are quite a few decently fast HL decks out there. To get around that, some decks that aren't MBC just don't run the extremely good cards that require life payment, or have life gain, or make sure their opponent loses more. I would reccomend having life gain (In my opinion, it is not a good idea to have low life when facing aggro and such), but luckily, mono black has quite a few cards that gain you life, like Corrupt, Drain Life, Highway Robber, Morsel Theft, Shadow Theft, Soul Burn (like drain life, but costs 1 more), Vampiric Link, Vampiric Touch, Tendrils of corruption, Vicious Hunger, Kokusho, Soul Spike, Rhystic Syphon, Soul Feast, Syphon Life, Consume Spirit, Tendrils of Agony, and probably many more. Whats awesome about some of these is that they're relevant to what you want to do.
An MBC deck should be strictly going the Suicide Black route imho. Black has to kill fast because it simply can't deal with enchantments and to some extent artifacts. I ran a pretty successful build in the Online-League, though I was favored by luck sometimes.
Absolute staples: Duress, Thoughtseize, Hymn, Hyppie, Ritual, The Skull, the bb knights, negator, flesh reaver, blacks creature removal spells, chain of smog, w-orb, wire, sinkhole, (encroach), kaerveks spite, etc.
It has to hit fast and hard. Also if you take a more controllish route, targetted or random discard + LD is your friend.
Quote from: coldcrow on 16-05-2009, 05:17:54 PM
An MBC deck should be strictly going the Suicide Black route imho.
Looks like there's someone out there who doesn't quite know what MBC means... it's Mono Black *CONTROL*. What you refer too is known as Suicide Black and simply something completely different, like e.g. Blue Skies ist not MUC.
Quote from: Sturmgott on 16-05-2009, 11:11:46 PM
Looks like there's someone out there who doesn't quite know what MBC means... it's Mono Black *CONTROL*. What you refer too is known as Suicide Black and simply something completely different, like e.g. Blue Skies ist not MUC.
Looks like someone didn't read the entire short post or simply tries to willfully bash me. I pretty much know about the difference of these two archetypes. I was just voicing my opinion about the inability of black to deal with enchantments, thus being vulnerable in a long game. A black stax build is surely viable though I hardly see it as a MBC since stax would want other colours too.
As I said .. going in the direction of the faster aggro build... meaning hybrid. Actually I was pretty succesful in the league running such a hybrid. Efficient beaters plus discard/LD.
Well, you wrote that an MBC deck should work like a suicide deck.
I think Frank read it right. You should articulate more pricisely.
I admit I didn't formulate it accurately. I wanted to point out that in my opinion in the specific HL 100 format MBC should go a hybrid route with Sui-black.
Quote from: coldcrow on 17-05-2009, 05:31:56 AM
I admit I didn't formulate it accurately. I wanted to point out that in my opinion in the specific HL 100 format MBC should go a hybrid route with Sui-black.
The problem there is the "C"... MBC can´t go aggro because it's a control deck...
What you mean is MB decks should go more suicidal instead of control. ;)
The problem is that there is no good reason to stay mono B, you don`t get any non-basic hosers so why you dont want to play a second or third colour?
After testing this archetype I can give you a pretty clear scoop on the issue: It doesn't work. RDW beats MBC very easily, MUC does too due to the enhanced ability of card draw and pretty much every other decktype does as well. B/W control doesn't work as well (again, no draw). Stick with Suicide and add Stuff like Winter Orb and Tangle Wire.
I tested some mainly black control decks and MBC lately. While it has clear drawbacks it still viable, just not Tier 1.
The main problem is that it's control cards aren't all purpose like counters, deed and more. I think the way to go for MBC is loading it with the best black draw (as life hurting as it is), black mana accel (ritual, coffers, magus, revenant, maybe lens) and it's good drain life effects (consume spirit, soul spike, spinning darkness, consuming vapors).
RDW is very hard to beat though cause your window to draw the lifegain is very , very small. Classic draw-go is likely hard, since black threats are all sorcery speed. But those two decks don't show up that often. Versus evrything else your matchup is acceptable depending on the draws of course.
My current MBC list:
// Lands
1 [HOP] Cabal Coffers
1 [AN] Library of Alexandria
1 [MPR] Wasteland
1 [PLC] Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 [TSP] Vesuva
30 [7E] Swamp (4)
1 [DK] Maze of Ith
1 [LG] The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
1 [CS] Dark Depths
// Creatures
1 [PLC] Magus of the Coffers
1 [TO] Nantuko Shade
1 [MM] Thrashing Wumpus
1 [ZEN] Vampire Hexmage
1 [ZEN] Vampire Nighthawk
1 [HOP] Withered Wretch
1 [ROE] Nirkana Revenant
1 [ZEN] Gatekeeper of Malakir
1 [LRW] Shriekmaw
1 [CHK] Nezumi Graverobber
1 [M10] Hypnotic Specter
1 [CHK] Kokusho, the Evening Star
1 [ROE] Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief
1 [MR] Solemn Simulacrum
1 [OD] Braids, Cabal Minion
1 [10E] Phyrexian Rager
1 [LE] Bane of the Living
// Spells
1 [HOP] Beseech the Queen
1 [MOR] Bitterblossom
1 [HOP] Consume Spirit
1 [DDD] Corrupt
1 [PLC] Damnation
1 [HOP] Dark Ritual
1 [DDC] Demonic Tutor
1 [BD] Diabolic Edict
1 [10E] Distress
1 [BD] Drain Life
1 [M10] Duress
1 [ZEN] Expedition Map
1 [ST] Grim Tutor
1 [AT] Hymn to Tourach
1 [ALA] Infest
1 [DDD] Liliana Vess
1 [M10] Mind Shatter
1 [ZEN] Mind Sludge
1 [DDD] Mutilate
1 [V09] Necropotence
1 [FD] Night's Whisper
1 [PY] Rhystic Tutor
1 [V09] Sensei's Divining Top
1 [RAV] Shred Memory
1 [DDD] Sign in Blood
1 [UB] Sinkhole
1 [ZEN] Sorin Markov
1 [CS] Soul Spike
1 [WL] Spinning Darkness
1 [DDD] Tendrils of Corruption
1 [LRW] Thoughtseize
1 [ROE] Consuming Vapors
1 [ROE] Inquisition of Kozilek
1 [ROE] Suffer the Past
1 [OD] Skeletal Scrying
1 [9E] Phyrexian Arena
1 [ZEN] Sadistic Sacrament
1 [TSP] Phyrexian Totem
1 [M10] Pithing Needle
1 [OD] Innocent Blood
1 [MR] Oblivion Stone
1 [A] Nevinyrral's Disk
1 [MM] Unmask
1 [UD] Yawgmoth's Bargain
Right now the curve is a bit on the high side, also there might be more removal needed. Results are varying but quite pleasing. Only real problem are the two aformentioned archetypes. Stax/Oath is doable but also one of the weaker matchups. Dark Depths is in for the fun of it :) it's the first card to go of course.
I would be very grateful for more card propositions, specifically looking for more creature threats to deal with planeswalkers.
Splashing a colour is too easy right now and there is no reason not to. Just add in four fetchlands, one or two duals and a signet and you're set. I'd splash green for Deed, Pulse, Grip, Putrefy, but you can go white as well.
Splash or not, I would add mana artifacts.
Well I don't want to splash for this specific deck, since I want to keep it a true MBC. I also tried a B/w and B/g deck which have some advantages over the mono version. Though a few times I got ousted by getting hit with waste/bowl/geddon on the splash-dual rendering the splash colour useless.
Of course, I ran mana artifacts in the first builds but specifically in MBC I am not sold on them. The deck has often problems with its dual nature control cards (removal/discard), so adding more dilution to it may hurt it. Right now I am testing without mana artifacts and will compare it to the other versions with a few manastones.
I'd cut
Magus of the Coffers
Nirkana Revenant
Both are too expensive to be relevant and accelerating at that point is not usually needed.
Phyrexian Rager - Depends on the meta, if 2/2 dork is enough to trade against opposing aggro, it's good.
Bane of the Living - Usually decent, but I'd cut it for better anti-aggro strategies
Kokusho - So slow and with the new removal that tend to remove from the game, this seems loose.
Corrupt - Too expensive. Turn 6 against aggro is pushing it and with acceleration it's very underwhelming. Against control it's too easy to counter and it needs to be lethal for them even to care.
Dark Ritual - Would replace this with a more permanent mana accelerator.
Infest - On of those metagame calls, but seems really week against any deck other than WW, monoblack aggro or fish. If WW is big in your meta, play Massacre instead. Decree of pain is probably just better if you add acceleration.
Liliana Vess - One of the worse Walkers and with only a few guys to defend this with, I'd cut it. Again, good against control, but way too easy to counter.
Sadistic Sacrament - Obviously bonkers against combo and decent against oath, but bad against majority of the decks.
Oblivion Stone - I find this too slow, especially if you decide to add more acceleration in form of artifacts, this can hurt you more than them.
Unmask - I have no clear opinion about this. Gut feeling says that it's not very good, but pitching cards that are bad in current matchup could be okay. I'd like to hear your thoughts about this one.
I'd also like to hear what you think of the RoE cards, if you have chance to try them out.
I'd add
Tombstalker - Big and cheap threat.
Abyssal Persecutor - I like this. Stop laughing.
Chainer's Edict - Very nice removal.
Contagion - See above.
Dust Bowl
Mana acceleration (chrome mox, talisman, signet, coldsteel heart, mind stone, everflowing chalice, guardian idol maybe coalition relic) and use those to add splash of some sort.
EDIT - Missed you previous post
If you want to go pureblood MBC without acceleration,
I'd add cheap removal in form of Ghastly Demise, Innocent Blood and Wretched Banquet to compensate the lack of speed. And you might want to hold on the Magus of the Coffers then, but I probably wouldn't.
And I'd go for more creatures: Crypt Rats, Nekrataal, Korlash come to mind.
I agree on Kokusho, Infest and Corrupt.
Nirkana and Coffers/Magus turned out to be pretty good in test games. Dust Bowl I didn't include cause of the swamp relevant cards and sorcery speed threat nature - but it will go in probably. Ob stone/Disk probably have to stay as they are the only outs vs non-creature permanents. Korlash I tested and wasn't too impressed since he is just a dork for 4 but yea.. Nekrataal, crypt rats and stalker are worthwhile.
On RoE cards: Consuming Vapors is pretty good if it resolves but a tad on the slow side vs burn. Untapping with Drana or Nirkana Rev. is stuff of legends :) , but they are of course vulnerable. Inqusition of Kozilek adds to the redundancy of duress/thoughtseize and was valuable in protecting threats vs counters or at start, but is pretty dead later on. Suffer the past is (imho) a real sleeper hit; instant GY hate vs diverse regrowth/loam/flashback stuff and it is mostly not dead in late game when I could fire it off at EOT for quite some mana. ALso buys a turn vs aggro if you are in a pinch.
Sad Sac is imho one more out vs the diverse silver bullet decks and is also quite good in taking their strongest cards. HL is tutor heavy so proactively shutting off Stoneforge/Gifts/whatever seems to be good, but there is still too few testing behind it.
Unmask is also a recent addition, to shore up the weak blue control matchup, so not enough data to evaluate yet.
Quote from: Tiggupiru on 26-04-2010, 09:38:11 AM
Sadistic Sacrament - Obviously bonkers against combo and decent against oath
SS is not any good against combo. It will not resolve, and even if it does, it cannot remove their all win conditions nor prevent them gaining unbeatable advantage and killing you with some crappy critters they happen to run. Even if you somehow manage to steal a game against combo with SS, you'll still lose the other two and thus the match.
I agree with most Tiggupiru's points. I'd play Liliana yet I admit it's not too strong. Against aggro just tutoring once is often GG, and against control, well, if you play enough threats, some will eventually resolve.
Quote from: Nastaboi on 26-04-2010, 11:00:08 AM
Quote from: Tiggupiru on 26-04-2010, 09:38:11 AM
Sadistic Sacrament - Obviously bonkers against combo and decent against oath
SS is not any good against combo. It will not resolve, and even if it does, it cannot remove their all win conditions nor prevent them gaining unbeatable advantage and killing you with some crappy critters they happen to run. Even if you somehow manage to steal a game against combo with SS, you'll still lose the other two and thus the match.
Point there. Depends greatly on the combo deck though. Against one trick ponies it's quite good and with enough discard you buy yourself enough time to execute your own game plan or SS. Those decks have usually hard time to execute a reasonable plan B if they don't have a way to generate absurd amount of card advantage and are often left with bunch of useless cards in their deck post SS. Chances are you have more live cards than they do.
Against High Tide (or similiar deck) it's really bad as they will still have cards to go off after Jester's cap and when going off, they tend to generate card advantage enough to overlast anything MBC can throw at them afterwards. Eventually they beat you down with random dorks like you said.
Quote from: Nastaboi on 26-04-2010, 11:00:08 AMI'd play Liliana yet I admit it's not too strong. Against aggro just tutoring once is often GG, and against control, well, if you play enough threats, some will eventually resolve.
With acceleration this could come online fast enough for tutoring actually matter, but without, I don't think it's good enough.
In theory, playing enough threats could work against control, but if you spend whole turn of playing cards like Liliana, they can counter it and still have enough mana to draw cards or manipulate library on the same turn, thus making the exhaustion tactic a bit flawed. It works if this deck had a reliable curve to power out threats control need to deal with every turn, but I don't think control oriented strategy can produce that.
Quote from: Nastaboi on 26-04-2010, 08:40:01 AM
Splashing a colour is too easy right now and there is no reason not to. Just add in four fetchlands, one or two duals and a signet and you're set. I'd splash green for Deed, Pulse, Grip, Putrefy, but you can go white as well.
Splash or not, I would add mana artifacts.
yeap, right now, there's no reall reason not to splash 1 color in MBC.
And yes on the mana accel, i'd add those that might be useful mid/late game: mind stone (yes, no B...) phyrexian totem, that new one from ROE that let's you draw 3. and then coalition relic and 2 other with CMC = 2 (probably some talismans).
5 to 6 should be enough.
If there wasn't so much artifact removal i would suggest extraplanar lens, but with things like qasali, it just sucks.
Also you already know my opinion on specter in that deck :P
Updated List:
// Lands
1 [HOP] Cabal Coffers
1 [AN] Library of Alexandria
1 [MPR] Wasteland
1 [PLC] Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 [TSP] Vesuva
23 [7E] Swamp (4)
1 [DK] Maze of Ith
1 [LG] The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
1 [MM] Dust Bowl
1 Bayou
1 [RAV] Overgrown Tomb
1 [JGC] Bloodstained Mire
1 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
1 [ZEN] Marsh Flats
// Creatures
1 [TO] Nantuko Shade
1 [MM] Thrashing Wumpus
1 [ZEN] Vampire Hexmage
1 [ZEN] Vampire Nighthawk
1 [HOP] Withered Wretch
1 [ZEN] Gatekeeper of Malakir
1 [LRW] Shriekmaw
1 [CHK] Nezumi Graverobber
1 [M10] Hypnotic Specter
1 [ROE] Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief
1 [MR] Solemn Simulacrum
1 [OD] Braids, Cabal Minion
1 [10E] Phyrexian Rager
1 [LE] Bane of the Living
1 [SHM] Dusk Urchins
1 [FUT] Tombstalker
// Spells
1 [HOP] Beseech the Queen
1 [MOR] Bitterblossom
1 [HOP] Consume Spirit
1 [PLC] Damnation
1 [DDC] Demonic Tutor
1 [BD] Diabolic Edict
1 [10E] Distress
1 [BD] Drain Life
1 [M10] Duress
1 [ZEN] Expedition Map
1 [AT] Hymn to Tourach
1 [DDD] Liliana Vess
1 [M10] Mind Shatter
1 [ZEN] Mind Sludge
1 [DDD] Mutilate
1 [V09] Necropotence
1 [FD] Night's Whisper
1 [V09] Sensei's Divining Top
1 [RAV] Shred Memory
1 [DDD] Sign in Blood
1 Sinkhole
1 [ZEN] Sorin Markov
1 [WL] Spinning Darkness
1 [DDD] Tendrils of Corruption
1 [LRW] Thoughtseize
1 [ROE] Consuming Vapors
1 [ROE] Inquisition of Kozilek
1 [ROE] Suffer the Past
1 [OD] Skeletal Scrying
1 [9E] Phyrexian Arena
1 [TSP] Phyrexian Totem
1 [M10] Pithing Needle
1 [UD] Yawgmoth's Bargain
1 [10E] Mind Stone
1 [MPR] Putrefy
1 [DS] Darksteel Ingot
1 [WWK] Nature's Claim
1 [MR] Sylvan Scrying
1 [TSP] Krosan Grip
1 [ARB] Maelstrom Pulse
1 [AP] Pernicious Deed
1 [FUT] Coalition Relic
1 [RAV] Golgari Signet
1 [UL] Crop Rotation
1 [CS] Coldsteel Heart
1 Regrowth
You are, of course, right about the splash. Right now I am running some landfetchers for easy access to Coffers. Skeletal and Sylvan Scrying might make way for a bit more removal, not too sure about that though.
I missed Thrashing Wumpus on the previous post, I would cut this also as this guy has "slow" written all across his hooves. I think Bane of the Living is too slow to play and this is even slower and shoots you in the process. If you want this effect, play crypt rats instead. The fact it can wipe a lot of 2/2's and live to do it again, is irrelevant most of the time. This is pretty easy to remove and since you don't have much creatures to begin with, they most likely have drawn at least one answer.
I would also not play those three mana artifact accelerants as they also tend to be, you guessed it, too slow. Turn two acceleration instead of than turn three, isn't that much of a deal in this deck, but at least you usually can play something else the turn you play a two mana accelerant. Coalition Relic is pretty much the only three mana accelerant you might want to play, but it depends on how deep in the splash you are about go. I love it in three mana decks that have awkward manabase or that want to play nonbasic hate as it fixes as well as accelerates. Here it pretty much does only to accelerate, in which case cheaper is usually better.
Vampire Hexmage seems loose when there is no Dark Depths, but I guess if you have trouble with walkers, this is your man. I hate the fact it's easy to remove though.
Pithing Needle however seems even more loose in a deck with no tutors for it (like Trinket Mage, etc. Black tutors rarely want to find it, especially when the deck is full of goodies like this one), thus making it a dead draw most of the time. If it is walkers you are afraid of, a big finisher is better. Green splash should be able to take care of everything else.
Regrowth is another card I don't like in a deck without Gifts as you are often better off drawing a relevant card instead of a relevant card that costs +2 mana. I imagine this being the best non Gifts deck for it and can't say anything for sure as I don't splash green in my MBC. Oh and this also activates opponents GY hate while the rest of the deck doesn't (well, skeletal Scrying kinda does, but they get no extra value activating their relic of progenitus in response).
If you don't want to add any more removal, I would switch Diabolic Edict to Chainer's Edict as it is better in a deck that can generate seven mana in a reasonable time. Personally, I would play both edicts and add Contagion as well.
Also is there a reason to play Sinkhole other than LoA? I admit it's a big reason, but random LD still just seems quite odd.
I would add Oona, Queen of the Fae and Guiltfeeder.
I'm also playing a MBC-deck and currently I realy like every singel card in it (specially Infernal Darkness and Pestilence/Withering Wisps).
Lands(40): Spells(30):
Snow-Covered Swamp x 28 Slaughter Pact
Shizo, Death’s Storehouse Dark Ritual
Spawning Pool Duress
Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth Thoughtseize
Lake of the Dead Demonic Consultation
Volrath’s Stronghold Demonic Tutor
Mutavault Animate Dead
Mishra’s Factory Hymm to Tourach
Mace of Ith Chainer’s Edict
Vesuva Doom Blade
Wasteland Diabolic Edict
Dust Bowl Terror
Dark Depths Unmake
Phyrexian Arena
Creatures(26): Beseech the Queen
Necromancy
Nantuko Shade Rhystic Tutor
Vampire Hexmage Corpse Dance
Gatekeeper of Malakir Withering Wisps
Nyxatide Damnation
Vampire Nighthawk Persecute
Coffin Queen Pestilence
Garza’s Assassin Barter in Blood
Hypnotic Specter Infernal Darkness
Crypt Rats Mutilate
Dusk Urchins Consuming Vapors
Plague Sliver Profane Command
Yukora, the Prisoner Mind Sludge
Abyssal Persecutor Liliana Vess
Shimian Specter Sorin Markov
Solemn Simulacrum
Graveborn Muse
Vampire Nocturnus
Shriekmaw
Divinity of Pride
Kagemaro, First to Suffer
Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief
Thrashing Wumpus
Demigod of Revenge
Ink-Eyes, Servant of Oni
Midnight Banshee
Ratcatcher
Artifacts(5):
Expedition Map
Pithing Needle
Phyrexian Furnace
Mind Stone
Nevinyrrals Disk
Hmm. You seem to autolose vs. blue-based control, burn and combo. Way too many high-costed spells without decent acceleration but also too few discard spells. Also missing necropotence and possibly Yawggain.
i posted my decklist in our blog. here you go: http://blog.magicplayer.org/2010/05/19/mbc-with-a-splash/