Those of you who are unaware: Still banned cards have been added to the current watch list (http://highlandermagic.info/index.php?id=watchlist) in order to play test them and consequently possibly unbanning them on April 15th. To my knowledge this is the first time an announcement has been made in advance regarding to changes in watch list. Kudos to that.
But this time it also raises some serious controversial thoughts as the watch list has been included with power nine cards, namely Ancestral Recall.
Ben Bleiweiss said (http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtgcom/feature/140):
"Drawing three cards as an instant for a single blue mana is so ridiculous that nothing even remotely close to this card has been attempted again in Magic."Ancestral Recall has now been taken into testing. and thus it's one of the cards to be potentially unbanned in four months. It was included to "help" control decks to battle against the slight dominance of lately emerged various aggro decks. This is what Frank Topel told us (http://www.magicplayer.org/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=1606&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=30&sid=28caf412956ff76d5c852f71b8be6f54) at german board, translated by Google:
Quote from: SturmgottIf anything, a slight imbalance in the format exists, it seems that in a slight dominance of Aggro to lie, which is certainly not least of which is owed Spoils Mulligan. As to this, but surely no one wants to renounce again, and furthermore, the aggro decks Bannings not cope with is, we want to try different cards, which could help control decks. One of these cards could certainly be Ancestral Recall. The problem here is one I believe that a shift in the direction of the format T1 would be perceived, on the other hand, that only limited IU / CE Ancestral available seem weenn them are quite affordable (around 70, - euro, apart from that it was not T1 few players also play HL and the card always have).
Also, we see potential for abuse in the form of massive Regrowth effects, especially in UGX decks. Also Isochronous Scepter / Ancestral appears dangerous. But once to see how this card would indeed, it is on the watchlist Unban released for testing.
If my understanding via translation was right, the claims presented by Sturmgott were either a bad joke or a horrendously wrong analysis how the Ancestral Recall would "help" the format.
Aside the fact that Ancestrall Recall would be a no-brainer-auto-insert in every deck that just splashed for blue, regardless if it was combo, aggro or control, a P9 policy we are embracing here would only prune casual players and accessibility for the format.
A claim that a card is affordable from the CE/IE-sets is perilously misleading if you take the actual resell value into account: The cards from the aforementioned sets hold some value to collectors (Time Twister goes for about $40 and Ancestral Recall respectively for ~$100 in the secondary market (http://shop.ebay.com/items/_W0QQ_nkwZancestralQ20recallQ20collectorQ27sQ20editionQQ_armrsZ1QQ_fromZQQ_mdoZ) at the moment).
What happens to the resell value after you've made it legal in Highlander?
And no, by that I don't mean the effect of the unbanning process but the actual mutilation of them when you take out the scissors and round the corners and make CE/IE card tournament legal by the HL current rules.
The card drops instantly from earlier mint to poor and if you get it sold for 1/10th of the list price then you can call yourself lucky. Collectors won't even think buying that. And this comes solely from the standpoint of a collector.
Investment for a non-tournament legal card in sanctioned events and solely for a casual format is questionable even from the hardcore player perspective and this just starts to be plain stupid. In addition a ~$350 (http://www.magictraders.com/cgi-bin/query.cgi?list=magic&target=ancestral+recall&field=0&operator=re) tournament stable contradicts the earlier banning of Imperial Seal, which was banned due to availability and monetary issues.
Why would Ancestral Recall be different and how would it make the format *any* better from this standpoint? Or has the secondary market ever been a naming factor for the players or banned list maintainers of the format?
Just thinking of unbanning Ancestral is plain silly, and strenghten the image of the council having absolutely no idea what they are doing. Cards should be banned on basis of their individual power, not the power of the decks they are played in. If fast aggro decks became utterly dominant - what they definately are not - then consider banning the most powerful cards in them. I see no problem if RDW/Goblins is the best deck in the format, because THERE WILL ALWAYS BE THE BEST DECK, in every format. The metagame will adapt accordingly, the new sets will bring new cards, and someday something else will be the best deck.
The format already has some overpriced cards, most notably Workshop, Bazaar, Library, Drain and Portal goodies. One can build a competitive deck without them, or one can have them in his deck and run through a tournament never drawing into them. They don't make the barrier to entry or even compete in the format too high, but that's because they are not that much powerful than many other reasonably priced stables. Allowing P9 (+Will) would just be silly and make combo-control only viable archtype.
Stating that just thinking about something is silly reveals just that the author of something like that should maybe mind his own business. And no, we will ensure that there will never be a best deck in the Highlander format. I do totally disagree with you on that as well.
All we did this time is to encourage players to locally test certain cards which might help to a) optimize the banned list in respect to which cards could probably be unbanned without an unhealthy effect on the format and b) furthermore diversify the format. If you want to play a format with a defined, best deck, go play extended and slam those Elves! at your opponent. We'll always work hard to make sure that HL will not have a best deck, or as it was the case with Flash/Hulk, not for too long.
If you go to a tournament, you will have better changes of winning if you decide to go with a deck rather than some another option. And there will be a deck, that'll give you most change of winning that tournament. So there will always be the best deck by definition. That deck can constantly change and might just have like at most two percent edge against the second best deck, and that deck will have bad matchups as well. But you can do nothing to the fact that some deck will always be the best. You can just ensure that the best deck will be the best by just a small margin.
Unbanning Ancestral is not going to make format better. Control decks will run it as well as skies, and it will give control decks more wins. If you draw Ancestral in the opening, you just win. Period. It's just making the format more random and luck-based, not healthier. In a singleton format, overpowered singletons are too dangerous to be allowed.
Oh and I own an Ancestral and would smash face with it in my local metagame where no one else has one.
Quote from: Nastaboi on 03-01-2009, 11:35:39 AM
If you draw Ancestral in the opening, you just win. Period. .
well, i dont agree with this, but i do think that it is dangerous to unban recall, for two main reasons:
a) Every deck thats runs blue, even as splash, will (would run, if they had one) play one, this includes (and not limited) to: control, aggro, aggro control, combo, etc. So if the problem is aggro, adding this to Ux skies or UW aggro wont help much.
b) This would mean that "everybody" would have to get 1 ancestral and for me the biggest problem isnt so getting it, but getting it and then appearing a deck that dominates or abuses ancestral therefore having to ban ancestral again. which would leave me with an unplayable (in HL) and expensive card.
The sames goes for LOA, i´ve been thinking of getting one, but i wanna give it more time to actually see if it doesnt get banned again, at least until abril 15th.
i'm the one who talked about P3 cards in the questionnaire and ancestral seems to fit that criteria. Hard/expensive cards to get.
and yes, i´m a control player (5cc) who hates 4/5 turn games against aggro. :P
According to Sturmgott, Ancestral will shift the format more towards control as every control deck will play it and splash for it. We had a discussion about this last night.
Also with all the tutors running around, Ancestral tend to favor control decks more on the longer run, and sometimes this is still relevant against aggros: If you can't fetch that Wrath of God because of mana screw issues, you then end up with a cheaper Ancestral and hope to draw both land and an answer.
Ancestral is going to be an auto insert in both control and blue supported aggro decks thus would *not* ultimately balance anything in the format. We would just create an unwanted side effect by steepening the format's overall cost and accessibility, which has so far been one major benefit of this format. Would you risk that?
Plus we are talking about a tilt towards blue here. This starts to resemble more Vintage, where main deck anti blue solutions are being played. This also takes away certain "distinctiveness" the highlander format currently has: one can play every color in a control deck without blue being the dominant one. My fear is that Ancestral would ruin that.
I fail to see why the format needs fixing just now when meta is diverse as ever. Because the latest GP top-8 happened to had 6 aggro decks? Is aggro really a problem and thus unbanning Ancestral one of the correct remedies to it?
Quote from: NastaboiOh and I own an Ancestral and would smash face with it in my local metagame where no one else has one.
I'm part of this local metagame and don't currently own Ancestral. So yes: one could ask if it's sane to shell out an extra $350 just to keep up with a non-sanctioned tournament scene and hope I didn't do an empty investment as in whim of council Ancestral might be banned again any time? At least in Vintage it is quaranteed I get to play with that sole one.
Those who want to play vintage but can't afford, play highlander instead. Unbanning candidate like these are excellent to spread FUD amongst player base.
QuoteAlso with all the tutors running around, Ancestral tend to favor control decks more on the longer run, and sometimes this is still relevant against aggros: If you can't fetch that Wrath of God because of mana screw issues, you then end up with a cheaper Ancestral and hope to draw both land and an answer.
then i´d prefer to have vampiric tutor. because it can search me the exact answer. loxodon, wog, collective restraint, land (mana/color screw, maze of ith), etc.. and yes i know it might enable quciker combo decks...
QuoteAncestral is going to be an auto insert in both control and blue supported aggro decks thus would *not* ultimately balance anything in the format. We would just create an unwanted side effect by steepening the format's overall cost and accessibility, which has so far been one major benefit of this format. Would you risk that?
from here (http://highlandermagic.info/index.php?id=faq#4)
"We wish to make this format available and accessible for as many persons as possible without being too restricted by the wallet. Here care must be taken that the played cards from such editions not differ from the back side from "normal" cards e.g. using opaque card shields or rounding the corners of I.E. or C.E. cards. This preserves the availability of the format for beginners without restricting the card pool."The "problem" with recall is the cost that can be both used in aggro and control, thus not really giving the upper hand to control. Yes U = 3 cards can get u both the land + the option to stay alive in control. But it can also give aggro those last points of damage needed (more critters, equipment, burn, etc, etc)
QuotePlus we are talking about a tilt towards blue here. This starts to resemble more Vintage, where main deck anti blue solutions are being played. This also takes away certain "distinctiveness" the highlander format currently has: one can play every color in a control deck without blue being the dominant one. My fear is that Ancestral would ruin that.
Really dont think so, blue is already a heavy played color even in aggro. most ppl already splash it for these 3 cards: FOF, intuition, gifts. so they would be just splashing for 4.
But yes, it´s still dangerous to unban it :P
QuoteStating that just thinking about something is silly reveals just that the author of something like that should maybe mind his own business.
Milk is white. Ice is cold. Earth is round. Ancestral Recall is broken.
QuoteAnd no, we will ensure that there will never be a best deck in the Highlander format. I do totally disagree with you on that as well.
Then we are not playing the same game. As far as I know, we were talking about magic. In every format, there is a dominant deck, which is better know as "the best deck". Metagame will shift to hose that deck, and there will be another best deck.
QuoteAll we did this time is to encourage players to locally test certain cards which might help to a) optimize the banned list in respect to which cards could probably be unbanned without an unhealthy effect on the format and
And in all seriousness, you are talking about healthy format and ancestrall recall in same sentence?! That is the second most broken card in magic history, and unbanning it won't make anything healtier.
Quoteb) furthermore diversify the format. If you want to play a format with a defined, best deck, go play extended and slam those Elves! at your opponent. We'll always work hard to make sure that HL will not have a best deck, or as it was the case with Flash/Hulk, not for too long.
Diversify format? Like... err... Sensei's Divining Top? It is a card that every deck should run. Ancestrall Recall is a card that every deck WILL run, be it mono R goblins or mono G elves. Your comment about the elf deck really delivered this thread though, good work.
EDIT: If you want diversity in the format, go ahead and unban Yawgmoth's Will. It can't be worse than ancestral recall anyway...
And if you had any clue of the format in question, you'd know that aggro decks are far from dominating the format.
Yeah Ancestral, Timetwister and Wheel. Go ahead and unban them...
Then what the hell is Back to Basics, Loam and Earthcraft doing in that watch list. And where is Gifts Ungiven?
Actually I see twister and wheel as more dangerous. This (and ancestral recall) will give manaramp combo/prison decks the needed probability to draw and play a bomb in the first 3 turns and win.
QuoteAnd where is Gifts Ungiven?
I´m taking a shot in the dark here:
but if the commitee wants to balance things by giving control better options it isnt by removing gifts. Gifts is control/combo card. you dont see (at least i dont) gobs running gifts or skies running gifts or other aggro decks, you might seem it in decks that make use of the grave, but u dont see zoos, RDW, gobos, weenies running gifts.
Also, i resolved quite some few gifts by now and what i can say is that yes, it helps a lot,it might even get me a win on a almost lost game but it´s not an automatic win condition, specially against aggro where it might be too late. The same thing applies to my opponent's gifts, i dont lose everytime my opponent plays and resolves a gifts ungiven.
QuoteAnd no, we will ensure that there will never be a best deck in the Highlander format. I do totally disagree with you on that as well.
i think what he meant by this is that Highlander doesnt have a best deck in terms of what we see in other formats where all across the world the top8 are full of the same decks.
This GP on the top8 we had:
WW
UG mid range?
ZOO
RG beats
suicidial black
Oath
i cant seem to find the other 2 decks..
Even though its an aggro Top8 there isnt a dominant/best deck there.
Unlike somes formats where 6, 7 out of the top 8 are faeries...
This is what i understand from his phrase. Feel free to correct me Sturmgott
Quote from: Mythrandir on 03-01-2009, 07:07:43 PM
i think what he meant by this is that Highlander doesnt have a best deck in terms of what we see in other formats where all across the world the top8 are full of the same decks.
This GP on the top8 we had:
WW
UG mid range?
ZOO
RG beats
suicidial black
Oath
i cant seem to find the other 2 decks..
Even though its an aggro Top8 there isnt a dominant/best deck there.
The other two decks in the Top 8 were Boros + RDW.
Quotebut if the commitee wants to balance things by giving control better options it isnt by removing gifts. Gifts is control/combo card. you dont see (at least i dont) gobs running gifts or skies running gifts or other aggro decks, you might seem it in decks that make use of the grave, but u dont see zoos, RDW, gobos, weenies running gifts.
No, I don't see gobs or skies running gifts. I don't also see either of the decks being even near "dominant" in the format. You are taking this "aggro is dominating the format" as a fact, which it isn't.
QuoteAlso, i resolved quite some few gifts by now and what i can say is that yes, it helps a lot,it might even get me a win on a almost lost game but it´s not an automatic win condition, specially against aggro where it might be too late. The same thing applies to my opponent's gifts, i dont lose everytime my opponent plays and resolves a gifts ungiven.
If you are playing a real deck, gifts wins on the turn after it was played (and it is played opponents eot) and most of the time it wins the game on the turn you play it, even if it is your own main phase. Tutoring whole combo, and getting 2 pieces of it in your hand = GG.
QuoteNo, I don't see gobs or skies running gifts. I don't also see either of the decks being even near "dominant" in the format. You are taking this "aggro is dominating the format" as a fact, which it isn't.
Well, my only experience with meta is the HL league, but "aggro is dominating" can be seen on the top8 of the GP:
WW -> aggro
UG mid range? -> semi-aggro
ZOO -> aggro
RG beats -> aggro
suicidial black -> aggro
Oath -> NOT aggro
boros -> aggro
RDW -> aggro
but there are better ppl out there that have a wider view that me, like i said i dont play tournaments, nor GPs, just in the league. But of course, i maybe be wrong ;)
QuoteIf you are playing a real deck, gifts wins on the turn after it was played (and it is played opponents eot) and most of the time it wins the game on the turn you play it, even if it is your own main phase. Tutoring whole combo, and getting 2 pieces of it in your hand = GG.
Althoug i realize my deck isnt by far the best deck in the format i believe it to be a good (REAL!) deck, in fact one of the GP was won by a 5CC (even though the lists are quite different). So yes i´ve won after a resolved (mine) gifts and yes i´ve lost even after a resolved (mine) gifts. But i have also played against resolves gifts (not mine) and won.
And i dont know what decks you´re playing with and against, but the Gifts ungiven resolved = GG is far from true. Besides Nastaboi (great) early harvest deck i dont´find that argument 100% valid, and i haven't played against many decks that won immediately because of a gifts. I may lose to that gifts, because of card disavantage (LFTL + cycle lands + wasteland is a pain), but certainly not gifts = GG
I is hard to believe that people who are in charge of things can see only top8 of one tournament and nothing else. Highlander is played in many placed besides (bi)annual GP, and there are successful decks in that very GP besides top8. Please, try to see the bigger picture.
And resolved Gifts IS GG.
Quote from: so_not on 09-01-2009, 07:52:24 PM
Tutoring whole combo, and getting 2 pieces of it in your hand = GG.
You missed something - > Combo in HL is actually dead!
It's a fact that Gifts Ungiven do not have a huge impact on our Meta anymore - there may have been different times but actually it seems easy to win vs. a resolved Gifts Ungiven. Maybe you forgot cards like Jund Charm, Shred Memories, Relic and lots more ?
latest GP: 6 Aggro, UG, Oath - only two copies of Gifts Ungiven in the Top 8
Frankfurt, 29.12.: 14 Players, RDW and UW-Control which didn't even run Gifts Ungiven won the tourney
Mannheim, 3.1.: 17 Players, Oath won the tourney but without any Gifts-Ungiven-Combo, 2nd place Tokenmania
I had a quite different opinion to Gifts Ungiven two years ago. I vehemently pushed for banning Gifts Ungiven (http://www.magicplayer.org/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=784) - meanwhile the Meta totally changed and I'm a bit wiser after 1.500 recorded test games.
Gifts bringt also nicht nur etwas in einer Zwei-Karten-Kombo, sie ist eine derartige Kombo !
Gifts Ungiven ist in den Top 8 des diesjährigen GP 4mal vertreten (Jans Staxx, 2x TPS, UG) !!!, letztes Jahr 3mal (Jans 5c, Dredgeatog, UG), im Vergleich dazu: Trinisphere in beiden Jahren gerade mal 1x. Auf den folgenden Plätzen ist Gifts sicherlich ähnlich oft vertreten wie in den Top 8 (den Eindruck hatte ich zumindest) - also knapp in jedem zweiten Deck ?!?! Gifts do not only support "Two-Card-Combos", Gifts IS a "Two-Card-Combo" !
Gifts Ungiven was 4 times in the Top 8 of this years GP(2) (Staxx, 2x TPS, UG), last year (GP1) 3 times (5CC, Dredgeatog, UG)...so in almost half of the Top 8 DecksTimes have changed - the GP is always a good tracer for. That's why i don't think Gifts Ungiven needs to be banned.
But plz back to topic.
Gifts for Aluren, Imperial Recruiter, Regrowth and Eternal Witness is far from dead what I can see.
Quote from: so_not on 10-01-2009, 06:49:55 PM
Gifts for Aluren, Imperial Recruiter, Regrowth and Eternal Witness is far from dead what I can see.
There are hundreds of examples like this...
BUT have you ever seen an Aluren-Deck Top 8 ?? After 6 HL GPs and lots of other tourneys I can say: I did NOT.
Such examples like yours above are nice but obviously pure theoretical and far from what usually happens if you play Highlander. And why? Yeah right - there is an opponent sitting in front of you!
Playing vs aggro you can't even play eot Turn 4 Gifts -> Aluren, Imperial Recruiter, Regrowth and Witness -> Aggro Player just gives you Regrowth and Witness and wins next turn by beatings - GG! so you maybe need to add Momen't peace to stay alive a turn longer.
Ever seen Stonecloaker in action after a resolved Gifts? - i did in GP 5 where i've won with UW-Skies vs a eot resolved Gifts of my opponent by just playing Stonecloaker while he tried to get back his game-winner from grave - GG, but for me after i dropped Winter Orb!
Just a early Relic, Claws, Furnace, Crypt, Wretch or things like Jund Charm, Beckon Apparation .... denying Gifts = GG!
It's a nice theoretical Gifts staple but far from beeing a realistic end for that Aluren-deck playing Gifts eot Turn 4.
You are invited to convince me from the opposite but i think you can't.
Quote from: Vazdru on 10-01-2009, 08:34:26 PM
Quote from: so_not on 10-01-2009, 06:49:55 PM
Gifts for Aluren, Imperial Recruiter, Regrowth and Eternal Witness is far from dead what I can see.
There are hundreds of examples like this...
BUT have you ever seen an Aluren-Deck Top 8 ?? After 6 HL GPs and lots of other tourneys I can say: I did NOT.
Such examples like yours above are nice but obviously pure theoretical and far from what usually happens if you play Highlander. And why? Yeah right - there is an opponent sitting in front of you!
Playing vs aggro you can't even play eot Turn 4 Gifts -> Aluren, Imperial Recruiter, Regrowth and Witness -> Aggro Player just gives you Regrowth and Witness and wins next turn by beatings - GG! so you maybe need to add Momen't peace to stay alive a turn longer.
Ever seen Stonecloaker in action after a resolved Gifts? - i did in GP 5 where i've won with UW-Skies vs a eot resolved Gifts of my opponent by just playing Stonecloaker while he tried to get back his game-winner from grave - GG, but for me after i dropped Winter Orb!
Just a early Relic, Claws, Furnace, Crypt, Wretch or things like Jund Charm, Beckon Apparation .... denying Gifts = GG!
It's a nice theoretical Gifts staple but far from beeing a realistic end for that Aluren-deck playing Gifts eot Turn 4.
You are invited to convince me from the opposite but i think you can't.
Why the hell it should be turn 4? Oh really, is graveyard hate good in this format? Obviously there haven't been any Aluren combos in GP top 8's since the deck (or any other combo deck for that matter) is pretty hard to pilot and I doubt those players are very good at least based on the decklists in top eights. Those are constantly misbuilt or have bad cards in them.
And that was just an example how silly the whole "ban combo pieces" policy is when something like Chain of plasma is banned but Aluren or Earthcraft for example aren't
AND now you guys are thinking of unbanning Ancestral??? LOL I must say!
Quote from: so_not on 10-01-2009, 09:03:10 PM
is pretty hard to pilot and I doubt those players are very good at least based on the decklists in top eights. Those are constantly misbuilt or have bad cards in them.
It seems you think you are better player as many of the last GPs Top 8-Player so you easily judge the top 8 decks of the recent GPs?! so i have to take a bow for the new HL-master? sorry never heard that you won anything so i can't judge you but your analsis do not impress me much / btw. ever heard of Andre Müller, Marco Blume or Simon Görzten - i bet you do not.
Modesty is a goodness.
Quote from: Vazdru on 10-01-2009, 09:20:08 PM
Quote from: so_not on 10-01-2009, 09:03:10 PM
is pretty hard to pilot and I doubt those players are very good at least based on the decklists in top eights. Those are constantly misbuilt or have bad cards in them.
It seems you think you are better player as many of the last GPs Top 8-Player so you easily judge the top 8 decks of the recent GPs?! so i have to take a bow for the new HL-master? sorry never heard that you won anything so i can't judge you but your analsis do not impress me much / btw. ever heard of Andre Müller, Marco Blume or Simon Görzten - i bet you do not.
Modesty is a goodness.
Sorry if I pissed you off. Obviously there are also good players with good decks and maybe I have bad memory but I don't recall seeing Blume or Muller in the top 8's of last couple GP's.
They would probably do fine with any sort of combo deck but majority of highlanderplayers aren't pros. I don't say I'm a better player but many of those decks have pretty obvious flaws. You are saying that those lists in those GP top 8's are close to optimal?
At the moment the metagame might be enough combo- and Gifts-hating in form graveyard- and nonbasiclandhate but that doesn't save you from that banning of Chain of Plasma.
I don't know who you are so neither have I heard you win anything.
Quote from: so_not on 10-01-2009, 09:43:23 PM
Sorry if I pissed you off.
accepted
Quote from: so_not on 10-01-2009, 09:43:23 PM
I don't know who you are so neither have I heard you win anything.
That doesn't matter at all. The difference is that I've never judged the top 8 player rather the guys playing Highlander at the GP the way you did. That was the only thing that pissed me off. And yes, Andre Müller played WW at the last GP (http://www.magicplayer.org/forum/index.php?topic=155.0).
Just wanted to write some comments also ... I do think after 7 swiss rounds it isn t only luck that player reach the top8 ... so i guess most top 8 players thought about there card choises ...
...but I am not happy with the watchlist either timetwister is maybe ok ... but the recall is just to imbalanced .. I guess wizards had it thoughts why no card got even nearly the power of this singel card and its gonna be a auto include that means alot of decks just gonna splash for Gifts, Intuition and recall ... and I don t wanna see that players just run around with "99" card highlander becasue everybody gonna play the recall ... about the other card choises ... when everybody thinks aggro is dominating why unban dustbowl for ME it is also a pretty good aggro card ... they just empty there hand and it is like every land is an LD ... I mean how can you think about banning b2b and unban a other nonbasic land hate ... thats in my sense pretty wierd :-/
just my opinion here
As far as I can see the meta in those GPs is pretty much combo-hate. Aggro-Control/Prison cuts alot of potetnial combos out of the top rankings. Since they almost all apply huge mana/spelldenial or are insanely fast combo often does not get the time to properly set up the win.
Its a gripe I have with the format for quite awhile ... pure combo isn't going to work that well in HL naturally.
I have a rather good TPS deck (list is in the strategy thread) which wins like 80% after resolved gifts. The problem still is the redundancy of aggro/control. Combo suffers alot if critical spells are countered/dealt with, on the other creature after creature or a multitude of lock pieces/counters are interchangable.
Dedicated combo so often has to wait for the right moment to push through the counterwalls that certain decks become unbeatable for it, which are funnily most of the top 8 of the gp.
I certainly want to see something done about the dominance of aggro, aggro/control. :D
I strongly agree with un-banning Ancestral Recall for several reasons:
1. I do not see this card ruin the format like Painter's Servant. If you draw Ancestral Recall it's not BANG = win. You need to set up a combo (as with the Painter) but this time it's not an artifact combo that every one can play. This is a coloured combo
2. For those of us (me included) who has actually spend the money on buying such an expensive card it would be nice to actually be able to play it once in a while. Since vintage is not played anywhere in the world these years I feel sort of stupid having spend so many hundreds of dollars on a card made of wood. I want to use my AR and in Highlander I draw it rarely so Highlander would be the right format
3. Agro seems in control (please note the irony) of this format and a strong control card would probably tip the glass into a 52-48 in agro favour instaed of 55-45 agro favour. Please do not take the actual numbers into account. It was just a mere example
I thank you all for reading even though I admit: There must have been some spelling mistakes.
Patrick Kassow, 21, Denmark
Although this topic was a bit dead, i´m inclined to answer this.
Quote1. I do not see this card ruin the format like Painter's Servant. If you draw Ancestral Recall it's not BANG = win. You need to set up a combo (as with the Painter) but this time it's not an artifact combo that every one can play. This is a coloured combo
Although not a "game ruin format" card, it sure needs testing, this is one of the cards that gives a player huge (for a low price) advantage on the game. Although coloured combo, like you said it is easily splashed for. Some decks run U just for gifts + intuition.. this would be another card worthy of such splashing.
Quote2. For those of us (me included) who has actually spend the money on buying such an expensive card it would be nice to actually be able to play it once in a while. Since vintage is not played anywhere in the world these years I feel sort of stupid having spend so many hundreds of dollars on a card made of wood. I want to use my AR and in Highlander I draw it rarely so Highlander would be the right format
For those of us (me included) who doesn't own one it would be very frustrating not to be able to take full advantage of the available pool card. And the fact that these are available in CE, doesnt really do it for me...
Quote3. Agro seems in control (please note the irony) of this format and a strong control card would probably tip the glass into a 52-48 in agro favour instaed of 55-45 agro favour. Please do not take the actual numbers into account. It was just a mere example
Well, imagine this: 1st turn, mox (discard land), island, mother of runes, ancestral recall, on the 1st turn you get 2 mana, 1 creature and keep your hand at 5... i know this is a god hand. But ancestral is powerful not only for control, but aggro too, and not to mention combo (altough combo is a bit dead). Like i said in the first comment, it needs testing. i dont think it's that straight forward that his card is a "strong control card" like you said, unlike LoA.
QuoteI thank you all for reading even though I admit: There must have been some spelling mistakes.
Patrick Kassow, 21, Denmark
No problem, welcome to the forums! It's good to see that this format is reaching more and more countries.
P.S. Sorry for reviving this topic, but i don't like "unanswering" (does this exist?) to new members. Feel free (everybody else)
NOT to go again with the "aye" VS "nay" on the recall ;)
I don t even think that the main reason should be that it is such an expensive card (but it also is a strong argument). In my opinion this card is just to strong, I don t remeber any card that got such a power I don t even know an example for a instant card for 2 mana where you can just draw 3 cards ... I think it is just to strong and because of its low mana coast it is also usefull for aggro like alrdy mentioned ... and everybody knows skies is pretty much a counter to control decks ... so you also improve a counter deck for control ... I think to draw such an expensive card in the pool is the wrong thing ... and the only good reason from Kassow-Rossing is that he is actualy owning this card :-\
First of all: Thx for answering me
Second: That you do not own the card and that the card is expensive in dollars is JUST as bad an argument as my argument that I own the card and that it has costed me a lot of money, so I would like to use it once in a while.
So.. If we need to agree on unbanning the card or not, we need to look at the power lvl of the card in this format. I do not think it will be auto-win when you get AR. I do not think you will win 20% more games after drawing AR. I believe it's less than 20% bigger chance of winning. That argument should be enough for a testing period. We all know that IF AR is unbanned, it will go straight to watch-list and if it doesn't work out, it will be banned again. I think it's worth testing for a few months
Nastaboi wrote: "And resolved Gifts IS gg"
I believe that no matter what combo you might get with Gifts Ungiven, I can stop it with Vindicate and Dissipate in my hand
If you want Gifts = gg to be true, then it needs to win you the game all the time. Since many people in here - already - have written the fact that they do not win all the times, proves that it is not auto gg. And the opponents did not auto gg too. So Gifts Ungiven is not auto-win.
Quote from: Kassow-Rossing on 24-03-2009, 07:42:42 PM
I believe that no matter what combo you might get with Gifts Ungiven, I can stop it with Vindicate and Dissipate in my hand
Right, you got me there. I guess Gifts is pretty fair card then.
It doesn't have to be a fair card. It just has to be not TOO unfair to play. And it is not too unfair to play. It's a good card. Not a game winning card always
As is Ancestral Recall. I think it should be tested. It can always be removed again
Quote from: Kassow-Rossing on 26-03-2009, 06:29:35 PM
As is Ancestral Recall. I think it should be tested. It can always be removed again
The problem with the remove again, is that it ain't a cheap investment. Even banning and unbanning things like LoA is a bit frustrating. This would be worse, it it's going to be unbanned, it would have to be a 100% sure this wouldn't warp the format.
Sorry for the necromancy. I just broke down some of the most expensive cards in the format and their effects in a Finnish MTG site, and I thought mise well translate it here.
Library: Strong card with a problem in randomness: really good only in opening hand. Tempo loss balances a bit and makes it not an autoinclude in every deck, but gives random free wins and thus profits those who have been able to bought one.
Workshop and Bazaar: Good but not too good. Problems lie in their price and the fact that they are essential cards for some arctypes, thus making those decks unavailable for people without said lands.
Ravages of War, Burning of Xinye, Imperial Recruiter: Far too pricy for their effect, and usually not too integral parts of a deck's strategy. However, one should really think twice before playing Armageddon deck without Ravages, for excample.
Timetwister: Strong card which I didn't see coming out from the banned list. Combos have been slow and inconsistent enough to not wreak havoc this far, but this is taking it to the edge. One can build a combo deck without the card, but don't really want to as long as it's allowed.
Grim Tutor: Would see more play if only price wasn't over a hundred euros. Strong but not too strong.
Moat, The Abyss, Nether Void: Cards with unique effect and worth some monetary investment, though you'll be still paying some extra for just Legends expansion symbol.
Conclusion: Though it is against the original idea of the format, I could see some bigger tournament been run with five proxies allowed. Then again, allowing these hard-to-get cards that are not too powerful (except Library) yet essential to some strategies is also against the idea of easy-to-access format.
IMO, cutting the card pool, just because of price isn't a good idea.
Although this format isn't as easy-to-access as t2, it isn't as hard as most ppl think. Things like RDW, RG beatz, Gobs, WW. don't have that many expensive cards and still they are great decks. Like in all formats a monetary investment is needed, obviously.
As for you review i agree with some:
LoA is definitely one of the most troublesome, because as "easy" as it popped out of the banned list it may pop back into the banned list, so until i "know" this is a stable card in our card pool, i won't buy one.
Workshop and bazaar although very expensive cards, like you said, are very specific to certain archtypes, so if you don't want to buy these just go for one of the other archtypes in our format. if you really love that arhtype then make an effort to buy one ;)
Timetwister and all p9, IMO, are just too expensive, and yes i know there are CE, but WOTC will sooner allow proxies than CE cards.
grim tutor and p3 cards shouldn't be allowed, i think they are a very expensive investment for cards that don't play anywhere else.
As for things like moat, abyss and the likes, i don't think they are that expensive.. if ppl bought goyf foils during its peak value, they can as easily buy an italian moat...
Quote from: MythrandirIMO, cutting the card pool, just because of price isn't a good idea.
Quote from: Mythrandirgrim tutor and p3 cards shouldn't be allowed, i think they are a very expensive investment for cards that don't play anywhere else.
Aren't these statements of yours little bit conflicting? Besides Portal 3 has more to offer to this format than the set currently gives to any other sanctioned format like Vintage or Legacy (in terms of different playable cards you can try in competetive decks).
I see why you said conflicting. Let me try and explain better:
One thing is to have cards 100-200â,¬ that are playable on other formats. The other is too have cards of the same price just for this format (P3), which means ppl "have" to buy specifically for this.
As for p3 offering more, i really don't see it that way... i only see the same cards that are already available but with different name... Now consider for example the price of an Armageddon and the price of Ravages of war. For me this is the problem with P3: turning a cheap card into a very expensive card.
Regarding P9, they are just too expensive and format breaking, IMO, to just be allowed, it's just not a matter of the price, it's the price combine with the game effect. They are far more relevant in game play than, for example a 100â,¬ mana drain. (and P9 are "bit" more expensive than a mana drain or even a workshop).
It's not as if a turn 1 workshop isn't game relevant, but workshop is a very specific card for a very specific archtype, unlike P9 that are auto-include in almost every deck that can support them (colors).