Just imagine
YOU could change the banned list. What would you do with following cards:
- Library of Alexandria
- Timetwister
- Dust Bowl
- Mindtwist
- Hermit Druid
- Wheel of Fortune
- Back to Basics
Being despotic dictator, I'd ban Hermit Druid and unban Dread Return and leave the rest as is. And ofcourse not reasoning my decisions to anyone afterwards.
Where's Ancestral Recall from that list, it's still on the watch list, right?
AR is of course out of contention ;)
LoA - unban (this is a control card, and control needs some good cards :P). The biggest problem is unbannind and then becoming too powerful and having to ban it again (because of the investment players would have to do)
Timetwister/wheel of fortune - These 2 may push a bit combo decks, would try and unban them and see what would they work out. Also they could act as refillers for aggro, which doesn't make me happy... (timetwister has the same problem as LoA, in terms of investment unbanning/banning again)
Mind twist - This is very hurtful if you have acess to lots of mana in the first turns, but if you have lots of mana on the first turns i think you have the right to do this. I'd unban.
Hermit - Probably would unban and ban dread return. Lot of ppl love this card, and it enables some decks, unless they started dominating, i see no reason to unban this one (keeping dread banned)
Dust bowl/back to basics - This may seem a bit bias ::) but i think there is enough (good) nonbasic hate available to most of the colors, so i'd keep basics unbanned but keep dust bowl banned. This is a recursive wasteland, that would be available to every deck.
Library: Stay unbanned, but could se it go as well. It's one of those cards that are really good only in your opening hand, making games more luck dependant.
Twister, Wheel, Mindtwist: Stay banned.
Dust Bowl: Unban. It breaks down control mirrors - guess what, there are dozens of other cards that do that too.
Hermit Druid: Ban this and unban Dread Return. Being players' pet card isn't enough to keep overpowered card unbanned and ban several underpowered cards as a cost.
B2B: Stay unbanned. Learn to play basics, people. Basic lands are good.
And I would ban Demonic and Gifts too, but everybody already knows that.
I would keep Wheel and twister banned, Library and Back to basics unbanned. Then I would ban hermit Druid and unban Mind Twist and Dust Bowl.
I would also ban Gifts and unban Flash, Dread Reeturn, Trinisphere and Chain of Plasma
* Library of Alexandria
Ban. The card is insane. Haven't lost a single game when this one drops on the table. No matter what the matchup is.
* Timetwister
No comment.
* Dust Bowl
Ban. Just simply too powerfull against any control.
* Mindtwist
Simply too powerfull against any deck. Specially those underpowered controls.
* Hermit Druid
No one wants to play this without some sort of abuse. Few decks want to play Return as 4 mana animating spell. Enough to ban this and unban Dread Return.
* Wheel of Fortune
No comment.
* Back to Basics
Keep unbanned and take away from watch list. This is same as banning Engineered Plague as goblins lose against it.
On a second thought, I think that Mind Twist could be unbanned. Its power level is as best equal to many cards presently allowed. (And ban Survival!)
I would unban following cards:
1. Unban Ancestral Recall
2. Unban Mind Twist
3. Unban Vampiric Tutor (We have Demonic Tutor and Tainted Pact. No reason to keep this less-powered tutor banned (Less powered if you play no more than 1 of each basic lands))
I would ban following cards:
1. Ban Survival of the Fittest
I would not touch Library of Alexandria
I would not touch Oath of Druids
I would concider banning Life from the Loam
Patrick
well, since ppl started talking about cards that weren't in Vazdru list, here goes:
Oath -> remains unbanned
survival -> remains unbanned
Vampiric tutor -> would love to play with this one! ;D one of the most flavored cards.
LFTL - it's easily disrupted with grave hate
As expected the opinions differ widely. You see it isn't that easy for us to arrive at the right decision and impossible to find a way everyone will be satisfied with.
My point of view:
LoA -> Ban
Timetwister and/or Dust Bowl -> Unban
Mindtwist -> Unban
Hermit Druid -> delete from Watchlist
Wheel of Fortune -> Ban
Back to Basics -> delete from Watchlist
and yes ...of course
Ancestral Recall -> delete from Watchlist
Let's see what will happen next week. THE SKY'S THE LIMIT ;)
This is what really happened, which is mostly congruent to Vazdru's opinion:
Unbanned:
* Dust Bowl
* Mind Twist
* Timetwister
Removed from Watchlist:
* Ancestral Recall
* Back to Basics
* Hermit Druid
* Wheel of Fortune
Added to Watchlist
* Mind Twist
Unbanned:
* Dust Bowl \ :D/
* Mind Twist :)
* Timetwister ???
Removed from Watchlist:
* Ancestral Recall :)
* Back to Basics :)
* Hermit Druid >:(
* Wheel of Fortune :)
Great! more nonbasic hate.. =/
But this time it is nonbasichate that your deck can actually play! ;D
Quote from: so_not on 03-04-2009, 09:43:48 PM
But this time it is nonbasichate that your deck can actually play! ;D
I'd prefer, not to play it :P i'm still considering if i'll run it or not. Too much colorless lands already. =/
Hi I'm new to the forums, I just wanted to comment on the banned list.
Having VAMPIRIC TUTOR banned and DEMONIC TUTOR not banned is nothing short of a joke. If you want the format to be taken seriously then have a consistent policy on these cards. I think they both need to be banned because they are overpowered and deck-manipulation is too strong in the 100-card format. Lesser Tutor effects are balanced, but these two stand out as decidedly unbalanced.
The same is true of LIBRARY OF ALEXANDRIA. Someone raised the point and they are correct that playing this turn 1 is as close to an auto-victory as you can get. Also, by deck construction standards every deck should run this, pure and simple. Finally, I see this format as one that has a dedicated following but should be trying to expand on that. A casual observer who's interested in playing Highlander would be discouraged by the fact that there's a $100+ card that they SHOULD by all accounts be playing with. By every commonly used metric this card deserves to be banned.
SURVIVAL OF THE FITTEST and OATH OF DRUIDS are other cards that should be requisite on the banned list. Both are too overpowered. In the case of Survival, it isn't very fun to play with or against considering that you will be searching through and shuffling your 100-card deck every turn (a reason why LAND TAX should also definitely be banned). Both inevitably lead to degenerative combo decks. I'd also dismiss the argument that that green needs powerful cards like those because Oath and Survival aren't being used to bolster aggressive green decks, and more often being abused by multi-color combo decks that revolve around exploiting their unfairness.
Finally, I'm conflicted on the DUST BOWL unbanning. There's a long list of nonbasic land hosers and I don't see why you would arbitrarily ban this one, except for the fact that it's a colorless land that runs into the same "should be in every deck" argument as Library. Either way you go is fine - I would put it on the Watch List.
I think a lot of cards that get left off the banned list are simply left off because they're "golden oldie" cards people want to play with, but there isn't enough consideration given to how unfair they are or how much they undermine the fun factor of the format. When someone plays a turn 2 Demonic or a turn 1 Library it totally drains the fun out of it for me. If you were able to put together a more comprehensive and well-thought-out banned list (some of the bannings are very well thought out, others not so much), I think you'd be further on your way to making it a real, DCI-endorsed Magic format if it caught on in popularity. But until people set aside their nostalgic attitudes about old broken cards it's going to take longer to do. Just my 2 cents.
QuoteHaving VAMPIRIC TUTOR banned and DEMONIC TUTOR not banned is nothing short of a joke. If you want the format to be taken seriously then have a consistent policy on these cards. I think they both need to be banned because they are overpowered and deck-manipulation is too strong in the 100-card format. Lesser Tutor effects are balanced, but these two stand out as decidedly unbalanced.
Demonic tutor is one of the most iconic black cards, and let me tell you that running/playing demonic tutor doesnt equal a winning. By far things like gifts ungiven and intuition are far worse in terms of power. Also i think that vampiric could see an unban (combo decks aren't very viable, but this is just my opinion, i completely understant why vampiric is banned and demonic is not)QuoteThe same is true of LIBRARY OF ALEXANDRIA. Someone raised the point and they are correct that playing this turn 1 is as close to an auto-victory as you can get. Also, by deck construction standards every deck should run this, pure and simple. Finally, I see this format as one that has a dedicated following but should be trying to expand on that. A casual observer who's interested in playing Highlander would be discouraged by the fact that there's a $100+ card that they SHOULD by all accounts be playing with. By every commonly used metric this card deserves to be banned.
A 1st turn black vise is incredible stupid against control or a 3rd turn back to basics is insane vs multicolor. This is (foremost)a control card (and control is far from dominating). And no, not every deck should run this, aggro tends to empty its hand really quick, really fast (rememeber cursed scroll? that's why it's good in aggro). You can easily make a "cheap" deck that is competitive, things like, RDW, WW. I´m more concerned about P3 cards in terms of price/availability. QuoteSURVIVAL OF THE FITTEST and OATH OF DRUIDS are other cards that should be requisite on the banned list. Both are too overpowered. In the case of Survival, it isn't very fun to play with or against considering that you will be searching through and shuffling your 100-card deck every turn (a reason why LAND TAX should also definitely be banned). Both inevitably lead to degenerative combo decks. I'd also dismiss the argument that that green needs powerful cards like those because Oath and Survival aren't being used to bolster aggressive green decks, and more often being abused by multi-color combo decks that revolve around exploiting their unfairness.
Some of my best matches (wins and losses) were against survival and oath decks. They are FUN and exciting. Of course a 2n turn SOF + squee is a headache, but nothing that one cannot solve. The final match of the last GP, a survival deck lost against a WW. But yes, it is indeed one of most powerful cards in the format.
Oath decks are very powerfull no discussion there, specially in an aggro enviromnent and specially it it's dropped 2nd turn vs aggro. But there is lots of enchantment hate, and most of the creatures can be dealt with (haven't played vs progenitus yet), until a deck starts dominating we shouldn't ban the cards that make decks strong (therefore a metagame with a broaden spectrum).QuoteFinally, I'm conflicted on the DUST BOWL unbanning. There's a long list of nonbasic land hosers and I don't see why you would arbitrarily ban this one, except for the fact that it's a colorless land that runs into the same "should be in every deck" argument as Library. Either way you go is fine - I would put it on the Watch List.
Haven't seen th impact of this one yet, it will probably upset me.. but i´ve bigger concerns (aggro...) :PQuoteI think a lot of cards that get left off the banned list are simply left off because they're "golden oldie" cards people want to play with, but there isn't enough consideration given to how unfair they are or how much they undermine the fun factor of the format. When someone plays a turn 2 Demonic or a turn 1 Library it totally drains the fun out of it for me. If you were able to put together a more comprehensive and well-thought-out banned list (some of the bannings are very well thought out, others not so much), I think you'd be further on your way to making it a real, DCI-endorsed Magic format if it caught on in popularity. But until people set aside their nostalgic attitudes about old broken cards it's going to take longer to do. Just my 2 cents.
Well, turn 2 demonic or turn 1 library isn't as good as a 2 turn bitterblossom or a 1 turn black vise or a 3rd turn BTB (that one really takes the fun out of the game...)in terms of fun. But i don't want to ban every card that has a strong impact early on the game, yes it is frustrating to play VS a 1st turn LoA, but it is also frustrating playing against a 2nd/3rd turn winter orb for example. MTG is a game of luck (not only, of course), so we'll always have these kind of situations.
And there is nothing wrong with nostalgic attitudes... :P it's not like we play with yagmoth will or balance or things like that... yes, mana drain, moat, the abyss, LoA are very powerful and expensive but you can build a good deck without those. ;)
Welcome to the forums! Have a nice stay.
Hello!
I joined this forum because of this case. I've been reading this forum every now and then, and correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the case at the moment that aggro decks are too powerful? Or something like that, and that is mainly the reason why Ancestral Recall was hanging in the watch list and so on. But my concern is a card that I think may have been forgotten in the ban list.
Trinisphere.
I did some research on this forum and as it seems, the case was that first turn trinisphere was too strong? It was paired with workshop and said that it's restricted in vintage and workshop is not.
This is just my opinion, but as it was stated, I think highlander is casual format, and price of the casual format shouldn't be that high. So if the case is that turn 1 trinisphere from workshop is too strong, then by all means ban workshop and leave poor 2$ trinisphere alone. Trinisphere alone isn't that awesome, but it sure slows down aggro decks. Maybe you should consider unbanning trinisphere? I don't believe it's that hard to deal with alone.
I'd like to hear some opinions on this card. If the question is either trinisphere or workshop, I'd ban workshop since most people don't have it or cannot even afford it.
100 % agree on banning Worshop (mainly for financial reasons) and unbanning of Trinisphere...
Well,aggro has a bit of dominance, not only because it's good, but some players prefer to go with aggro because it's easier (in the way that you either win or lose quickly, as oppose to long control matches)
As for banning workshop, i really don't see a problem with it, workshop it a very specific card for a very specific kind of game. For example if Ancestral was unbanned every deck that runs or splashes U would "have" to have one. Workshop isn't a staple card and its price, although one of the most expensive cards in the set, isn't as expensive as an Ancestral recall.
As for trinisphere i've never played it (vs it) in highlander format. It probably screws aggro, but if it would balance the meta i´m for it, if it would unbalance the format against aggro i´m against it..
Let's hope, someone linked to the bannings list says anything (Vazdru? :P)
The issue with Trinisphere is its randomness. It's only devastating when played on the very first turns of game. By fifth turn, aggro decks have already played their hands out and have 3 lands to play any spell they draw. Late Workshop can still accelerate Slaver or Triskelion, but with Trinisphere banned, cool 1st turn plays are limited to mana artifacts.
Because losing straight to Trinisphere only happens when one mises it in his opener, the plain unfun factory of the card makes it ban-worthy.
Quote from: Nastaboi on 28-04-2009, 10:47:07 PM
The issue with Trinisphere is its randomness. It's only devastating when played on the very first turns of game. By fifth turn, aggro decks have already played their hands out and have 3 lands to play any spell they draw. Late Workshop can still accelerate Slaver or Triskelion, but with Trinisphere banned, cool 1st turn plays are limited to mana artifacts.
Because losing straight to Trinisphere only happens when one mises it in his opener, the plain unfun factory of the card makes it ban-worthy.
Well, there are "lot" of 1st turns unfun/"unfair" cards. LoA, black vise, goblin lackey, 1 sturn duress + hymn to tourach or hippie. But like i said, never played with/vs it. a 2 card "combo" 1st turn play in a 100 format doesn't seem that dangerous (but i might be mistaken, it has happened :P)
All of the cards you listed can be easily answered right on, and one of them is a three-card combo. They are arguably equally or more strong than early Trinisphere, but it's more like how they feel. If an opponent gets some card advantage, you still feel like you are in the game as long as you can play your spells.
I am okay with unbanning Trinisphere, because the inconsistent nature of Stax decks keeps it fair. All I say is that I understand its banning, and unbanning it wouldn't bring much to our format.
Quote from: Nastaboi on 29-04-2009, 08:00:58 AM
All of the cards you listed can be easily answered right on, and one of them is a three-card combo. They are arguably equally or more strong than early Trinisphere, but it's more like how they feel. If an opponent gets some card advantage, you still feel like you are in the game as long as you can play your spells.
I am okay with unbanning Trinisphere, because the inconsistent nature of Stax decks keeps it fair. All I say is that I understand its banning, and unbanning it wouldn't bring much to our format.
Don't take me wrong. i agree with you. i´m just saying that a 1st turn trinisphere (for me) isnt' a valid reason for banning it. And it can too, be easily dealt with (turn 3 or 2 if you have mana acceleration and depending on who is paying first), It doesnt "kill" a deck, it just slows it..