Banned:
* Enlightened Tutor
* Buried Alive
Unbanned:
* Kiki-Jiki, Mirror-Breaker
* Chain of Plasma
Watchlist:
+ Kiki-Jiki, Mirror-Breaker
+ Chain of Plasma
- Oath of Druids
- Life from the Loam
- Earthcraft
Bannings will be effective from 15.07.2009 forward.
Reasons for our decision will follow. In German language you can find them here: http://www.magicplayer.org/index.php
Okay, I'm all with the unbannings, but I have to question the bannings once again. Enlightened Tutor is powerful, because it gets Survival - I agree on that. And then you banned Buried Alive along that, because it is a cheap way to get some combo in a graveyard. Guess what - Survival and Gifts do exactly the same thing, and much more! As with Hermit Druid vs. now banned Cephalid Illusionist and Dread Return, I really can not see why on earth you ban two lesser threats and leave the most powerful card be. If you weaken Survival by just taking the best tutor that finds it, you'll just make drawing it more random and more frustrating to lose against. And I am still amazed that everybody fails to see any problem with Gifts.
The ban list now looks more rational, at least from the perspective of outsiders to the format: Kiki-Jiki and Chain of Plasma were commented most often with WTFs by the people I've introduced this format to. So from that viewpoint these unbannings were ganz OK.
@Nastaboi about gifts:
Sturmgott has commented the card dated on 19.06.2009 at http://magicplayer.org/phpbb/viewtopic.php?p=10808&highlight=#10808
Google translation follows:
Quote from: Sturmgott
Gifts was only once "I win" - and that was in the TPS, as Yawgmoth's Will, Lion's Eye Diamond and Tolarian Academy were still legal.
Contrary to your assertion, i.e. the card in recent months in importance and strength lost because creature based decks just so much pressure that Quality AND ... The same also applies to intuition and Life from the loam.
I do not know how many tournaments in recent times you've played - but in the 5 or 6 tournaments I played in recent times (as well as in the online league) Gifts has virtually played no role because it is too expensive . The most common application, which I've yet seen, is the search of 4 Solutions for the current board - and that is exactly what I find totally okay.
(Sorry for the shitty translation, +1 karma for the mod who can clear that up.)
But anyway, while I can't wholly sign the above statement, I can accept it somewhat as clearly the meta in Germany is different than our "random" meta in Finland, and this just might be the defining factor with gifts here.
Well, really don't know what to think.. enlightned fetched threats, but also answers. By banning it, cards like BTB, SOF, etc seems more and more luck based, which i don't know (personal opinion) if it's either good or bad.
I've won many games VS survival, and yes survival is a pain if it comes 2nd turn, but so is BTB. Survival decks are very, very good, but far from being broken, IMHO. I believe if SOF starts dominating, we could still ban squee first, which enables SOF as a huge card/tutor advantage.
As for buried alive, doesn't really affect "me", since i haven't seen many decks running it. So it won't be missed, because it "wasn't around" (in my meta).
@Nastaboi: Like someone said, gifts is now being more used for getting answers and balancing the board, which i find very good. And yes, i know you're heartbeat is quite good, but until a deck abusing gifts starts dominating the format, i don't see it is ban worthy. I believe combo shouldn't be cut out entirely! So it's good that heartbeat, TPS, dragonstorm are available and tournament worthy.
I really wish that the currents banning/unbanning would reflect in a slower format. :P, but this is just a personal wish. As long as the meta is diversified it's good.
These changes have no profound effect on the speed of the format. E-Tutor balances out for aggro vs. control, it was used for threats as solutions likewise. Buried Alive is a bit sad (wasn't played often anyways).
Personally I think Library and Survival are the worst cards right now. And saying that aggro is fast doesn't help the argument. Because theat inevitably leads to "why don't you play aggro".
If you play a midrange deck there is absolutely no reason to not play library/loam/survival if the colours support it. With Library unanswered T1 these decks have regurlarly a Recall working for them. 3-5 cards are the usual gain. This shreds anything but fast aggro (except the rare circumstances where they only draw crap or your hand is unbeatable).
Same could be said for Survival, although there are more answers for it.
Summary and loose translation of the motivation for our bans and unbans posted my Sturmgott (http://www.magicplayer.org/index.php?id=home)
Ban Enlightened
Some of the most game-defining and critical cards in the current meta are enchantments, first of all Survival together with Back to Basics (not only Mythrandir hates this card ;)), Blood Moon and the artifact Winter Orb. Why? On the strength of our experience this cards decided the most games in the last time by far when they once hit the board. The evaluation of recent tournaments supports this impression. On the other hand side this cards also have an important function for the balance of our meta. That's the reason why we didn't ban one or all of the mentioned cards but the best tutor to get access to them, Enlightened Tutor.
Another point is -like pyyhttu already mentioned-: the banned list looks more rational when Mystical and Enlightened both are banned or unbanned. That's one reason why we discussed to unban Mystical Tutor instead of banning Enlightened. After we debated this approach for a while we all (Sturmgott, malz77 and me) came to the conclusion that unban Mystical isn't a good idea cause it would push Staxx too much (Mystical -> Gifts Ungiven, Armageddon, Wildfire, Mindtwist, Upheaval)
Unban Kiki Jiki, Mirror-Breaker / Ban Buried Alive
Recursion-based decks and Reanimator weren't viable recently. Buried Alive didn't play a big role at the latest tourneys and when it was played it was just to support Combo in particular Reveillark Combo.
Buried Alive had to go cause it would have been a possible Turn-3-kill:
T1: Forest + Birds / Bayou + Elf or the like
T2: Land, cast Buried Alive for Kiki, Pestermite, Karmic Guide to grave
T3: random reanimate and win
You can't have this with Survival, Intuition, Gifts in that celerity (maybe T5).
We aware of the fact Kiki Jiki might cause some problems in combination with Reveillark and Survival that's why we put it on the watch list.
Unban Chain of Plasma
Lots of hl-players do not believe that Swans + Chain could be that strong like Hulk-Flash, Angry-Ghoul or Vault-Key were in there best days. I've made a couple of test games with control and skies and didn't felt that Swans-combo could be overmighty like the before mentioned combo-decks. Some aggro deck without any disruption could get some problems thats right but aggro should get some "antipole" so the aggro-players are maybe forced to play disruption of any kind (at least if they aren't fast enough ;))
Another thing is that exiled Swans couldn't get back to buisness with Wishes anymore and that agggro decks are 0,5 - 1,0 turns faster than they were in former times before guys like Pridemage, Doran, Rafiq and this like entered the battlefield.
Of course we didn't know exactely if there is any top hl player able to break Swans + Chain combo so it directly goes to the watch list.
On that Buried Alive topic: Turn 2 is equally possible if you have Dark Ritual + 2 Lands. With Mox Diamond or Lotus Petal even Turn 1. But that was not the only point. The point even moreso was and is that you can combo off any time you like for just 4 mana. All you need is Buried Alive + Reanimate. A combo that instantly wins for just 4 mana with no setup on the board required is just plain too good.
Some people stated that we weakened control decks by banning ET. Yes, this is true - but it's only part of the truth. The complete truth is that many a game was won by aggro or aggrocontrol vs. control by simply waiting for the right moment, playing ET EoT and sealing the controlplayer's fate by destroying his mana - either through B2B, Blood Moon or at least (in WW) with Winter Orb.
The truth is: Moat, Collective Restraint and the like will be harder to have in the right moment now.
But the truth also is: We hardly have any aggro decks that cannot handle enchantments these days because WotC printed so many great creatures that simply handle these enchantments: Qasali Pride Mage, Ronom Unicorn, Kami of Ancient Law, Wickerbough Elder, Harmonic Sliver. Not to speak of Oblivion Ring, which also found its way into Naya, Bant, UGw Survival, WW, Boros...
So effectively we think that banning ET makes Control Decks MORE, not less viable.
And I'd call both of these scenarios luck and asked my opponent to shuffle again.
Any instant removal on the angel would collapse the combo for the time, or a graveyard hoser, or a counter, or stifle, or...
Is this combo really too resilient or consistent enough as you claim that you can't let the player base to work out the results?
We don't have deck lists, prolific tournament winning players commenting or tournament results; just your claims without any real hard data.
It's kinda shame you still neglect this policy somewhat, as it has worked for the DCI and the player base of MTG in overall approves that they get to participate. Then the ban is called for and feels justified. Now it just... doesn't.
Some constructive criticism, that's all.
You can't be serious about that. This would mean that you can never tap out as soon as the opponent has 3 lands in play. Of course there is plenty of available solutions in the combo. But of course the combo player won't try the combo just to have you show him stifle or StP/PtE - this assumption is plain naive. As an aggro player, you simply can't stop dropping stuff from turn 2 on - you'd then lose to the combo player's combo protection. As a control player, you need the right mana really early + the good counters, or you'll lose a turn later to Orim's Chant, Thoughtseize, Duress, EoT Mana Short or simply Ice.
What makes it even tougher is that there's plenty of redundant second combo pieces. You simply need to find Buried Alive + any form of sorcery or instant animation (Life/Death, Shallow Grave will also work). This makes an early combo much more likely because in many a game you need to play only one tutor spell and can go off after that because the second puzzle piece was simply drawn.
When Flash & Hulk ruled the format, the same solutions were available to Hulk. Of course that combo was by far stronger than the aforementioned Buried Alive + Reanimate. But still I think there should be absolutely NO 2-card-combo available that wins the game out of the hand for just 4 mana, not even for 5 mana. Swans + Chain costs at least 6 mana, which is still so cheap that we're really not too sure this should be available. But in that case we considered it expensive enough to allow players to prove us wrong.
Quote from: Sturmgott on 02-07-2009, 11:54:41 PM
When Flash & Hulk ruled the format, the same solutions were available to Hulk. Of course that combo was by far stronger than the aforementioned Buried Alive + Reanimate. But still I think there should be absolutely NO 2-card-combo available that wins the game out of the hand for just 4 mana, not even for 5 mana. Swans + Chain costs at least 6 mana, which is still so cheap that we're really not too sure this should be available. But in that case we considered it expensive enough to allow players to prove us wrong.
I have lost many times to a 2 card combo that costs five mana. One of the cards is being removed from the watchlist now too.
Earthcraft + Squirrel Nest
First of all this combo costs either six mana or requires at least some sort of minimal setup to cost 5 mana in the form of having a creature on the board at the time being. And second, and that's more important and easy to identify as the reason why Guilty Conscience + Stuffy Doll was never overpowered: You don't win the turn you play both combo pieces - you need at least one more turn to win, a full turn in which your opponent has the chance to do everything he can to prevent the combo from winning the game.
Not trying to start anything or get anyone's feathers ruffled.
At my local store there is two guys (two red-green tokens) with that combo in their deck and its frustrating
to lose to it every time both cards hit play, even when one dedicates a lot of resources and card choices to beat it.
Well I lose every time my opponent draws Price of Progress. That's one card combo. I'm not advocating it's ban, but consider this: how is Gifts for two combo pieces and two regrowths not an one-card combo? Higher cost is somewhat negated by the fact that you can cast Gifts EOT, and you don't have to have anything in hand to combo out from that.
That Buried Alive ban came literally from out of nowhere with no tournament nor any data to back it up. Guess what: Buried+animate worked well before with Reveillark, Body Double and Husk. I have played against it once or twice but never lost to it. Hardly format breaking.
The problem with Gifts and Survival is that they are one-card combos. You can argue that they are too slow and can be answered, but even then they give their caster so much card advantage that it is really difficult for opposing player to catch up. And the best combo decks are not necessarily the fastest ones. It's not that hard to slide in some control elements for a 100 card deck when you only need a couple for a winning combo.
I agree with Nastaboi partially. Kiki-Jiki which is a combo-piece per se. It's not too good without other pieces not really splashable and in a colour not really suited to creature recursion. So you randomly decide to unban it and now you have created a 2 card combo with buried and animation. So what I don't get is: Buried Alive has far more applications than Kiki so why shutting off the more useful piece?
Actually I am far more concerned with the redundancy of the W/x aggro decks right now. Are you going to ban Armageddon because it's a 1 card kill "combo"?
That's where I disagree with Nastaboi: you can't start banning cards like gifts because they are too powerful mid/late-game. If you ban those cards the format will delve into a pure Aggro dominated meta because of the recent powercreep in creatures.
That does not apply to Survival though: Survival isn't a 1 card "combo", it is a reusable cheap tutor having an insane synergy with a certain goblin (generating even CA on top of tutoring).
Quote from: Nastaboi on 03-07-2009, 08:06:17 AMThat Buried Alive ban came literally from out of nowhere with no tournament nor any data to back it up. Guess what: Buried+animate worked well before with Reveillark, Body Double and Husk. I have played against it once or twice but never lost to it. Hardly format breaking.
Right now I cannot see how this wins the game the turn you play it?
It does not, unless you happen to have another CIP creature in play/grave, which is often the state. Not so much on turn 3, I'm gonna give that to you.
Quote from: coldcrow on 03-07-2009, 10:03:35 AMSo you randomly decide to unban it and now you have created a 2 card combo with buried and animation. So what I don't get is: Buried Alive has far more applications than Kiki so why shutting off the more useful piece?
We did not create a combo here. We rather stopped a combo at the time we banned Kiki-Jiki. The reason to ban Kiki-Jiki was Buried Alive and everybody and their dog shouted at us "why didn't you ban Buried Alive, nobody cares for that card, but everyone wants to go Kiki-Jiki!!". We simply think that having Kiki-Jiki AND Buried Alive in the format is not healthy. Buried Alive has had it's time now, so now we switched for some new interaction.
Quote from: Nastaboi on 03-07-2009, 11:24:02 AM
It does not, unless you happen to have another CIP creature in play/grave, which is often the state. Not so much on turn 3, I'm gonna give that to you.
Ok, so it does require some sort of setup. It's not "I win without having announced anything and it costs me only 4 mana and 5 life". That may look like a small difference to you - I think it makes a huge difference.
btw, I never really liked what Reveillark does. Got to have a close look on that card as well.
Created was worded wrong, I admit, (Should proof-read my posts more), re-enabled would be better.
I can live with that reasoning, though I don't really see Kiki having the same degree of usefulness as Buried Alive.
Quote from: coldcrow on 03-07-2009, 10:03:35 AM
Survival isn't a 1 card "combo", it is a reusable cheap tutor having an insane synergy with a certain goblin (generating even CA on top of tutoring).
Not 1 card combo?
EOT fetch Body Double, fetch Nantuko Husk, fetch Murderous Redcap, fetch Reveillark, untap, evoke Reveillark...
Quote from: so_not on 03-07-2009, 05:00:12 PM
Not 1 card combo?
EOT fetch Body Double, fetch Nantuko Husk, fetch Murderous Redcap, fetch Reveillark, untap, evoke Reveillark...
The combo/synergy are the reanimators + CIP + sac-outlet/whatever, survival is the tutor.
Let's not get into semantics. If you only have to draw one card to assemble a combo, then it is called one-card combo. I don't even use Squee in my Survival decks, it is a wasted slot when you straight out win if you get to untap with Survival.
Quote from: so_not on 03-07-2009, 05:00:12 PM
Not 1 card combo?
EOT fetch Body Double, fetch Nantuko Husk, fetch Murderous Redcap, fetch Reveillark, untap, evoke Reveillark...
Let's see what we have here. First of all we need to find and resolve Survival of the Fittest. We then need to have a creature card in hand. We need GGGG at the end of turn, probably not the turn we played Survival unless at that point we already had 6 mana, of which 5 are G. Even if we did have that, we still have to say go so opponent gets a full turn to care about this combo.
If we look at it from a more realistic point of view, we play Survival, say go, fetch one or two creatures at end of turn (let's assume we already had a creature card in hand (2nd condition to set up the combo). In our next turn we play let's say a Wall of Roots and say go. At the next EoT of your opponent, you activate SotF again and fetch for the missing pieces, hoping to find that sixth mana so you can now Evoke Reveillark. This gives your opponent two full turns to interrupt you.
Tell me, why would we ban something as slow as that??
I was just telling that this is a one card combo, not that it should be banned. I consider also Gift Ungiven and Goblin Recruiter as one card combos.
Sorry, you're right. Of course SotF is a one-card-combo in that respect. Oh, and Door to Nothingness is also a one-card combo.
If you call Gifts Ungiven a one-card-combo, then tell me a realistic Gifts composition with which you win the turn after Gifts, that is, with no previous setup except a reasonable amount of mana (let's assume you have 5 mana in your next turn after Gifts).
Battle of Wits, two regrowths, Pact of Negation. ;)
The problem with Survival and Gifts is not only that they are one-card combos but they are also everything else if needed to. Earthcraft or Kiki-Jiki does nothing if you are facing lethal the following turn. Gifts and Survival will find you right cards in any situation in addition to just winning if you are not under pressure.
The luxurious thing with Gifts and Survival is that you don't have to rush for victory. You can just see what your opponent is doing, and if it's something threatening, fetch for suitable solutions. If your opponent is playing control, go for card advantage and overwhelm him. If he has nothing, just win. The point is, in every situation you will win the game. The two former just give your opponent delucion that they have not lost though they already have.
That’s all well and good, but one question is still open-ended!
Why should we ban Gifts when Aggro Decks like WW, B-Sui and R/G are still able to deal with all deck around?
Btw. In former times â€"about 2 1/2 years ago- I was the guy who demanded energeticly the ban of gifts in endless debates with and against the HL council:
one short extract:
Vazdru, 01.11.2006, 11:44
________________________________________
Unbannings:
Gifts bringt also nicht nur etwas in einer Zwei-Karten-Kombo, sie ist eine derartige Kombo !
Gifts Ungiven ist in den Top 8 des diesjährigen GP 4mal vertreten (Jans Staxx, 2x TPS, UG) !!!, letztes Jahr 3mal (Jans 5c, Dredgeatog, UG), im Vergleich dazu: Trinisphere in beiden Jahren gerade mal 1x. Auf den folgenden Plätzen ist Gifts sicherlich ähnlich oft vertreten wie in den Top 8 (den Eindruck hatte ich zumindest) - also knapp in jedem zweiten Deck ?!?!
IN SHORT WORDS: Gifts is a 1-card-combo that ruled Top 8 of GP 2 and 1, a card which was omnipresent and must be banned.
But that were the times when Staxx, TPS and U/G ruled the meta in every manner.
Now the things look quite different to me. A WW wins GP VI, a edit: Naya-Zoo/Boros ruled our HLL and B-Sui is able to deal with all the big threats like Survival, LoA and Gifts Ungiven.
Plz try to free your mind from always singing the same tune and believe me in one thing - should the times return when Gifts Ungiven dominates the meta again I will be the first guy standing right beside you voting for its ban!
And plz try to bring you in mind how the meta looked like before Gifts Ungiven and Survival had their first appearance and how it could look like after we would ban them....even more mono-colored and bi-colored aggro-decks esp. RDW and WW ?!?! Is that a vision you like?
Or just describe your thoughts what would happen if Survival and Gifts had gone.
Quote from: Nastaboi on 03-07-2009, 10:11:59 PM
. The point is, in every situation you will win the game. The two former just give your opponent delucion that they have not lost though they already have.
Not exactly, i have Gifts many times in my hand and i´m able to play it EOT 4th and even then i lose to aggro... Gifts isn't a magical card that says "you Win", far from it. Yes, it can be used for battle + 2 regrowths + pact, but even that doesnt win you outright (on 4th turn), and on 4th turn aggro is probably reaching your critical damage zone :P
If you read our league scoreboard you'll see more things like: geddon -> win, BTB -> win, PoP -> win, etc, etc. Thatn Gifts -> win. And of course Gifts is a huge CA, but so is LFTL + cycle cards, so is a 4th turn mind twist, or a 1st turn LoA, and like Vazdru said the fairytale of LoA -> win is not that right.
Why would we ban a card if there are ton of decks (aggro, specially) that really don't "care" if you have gifts in your library/hand?
In your meta do you really lose
everytime your opponent plays gifts?
Quote from: Mythrandir on 04-07-2009, 03:12:59 PM
Not exactly, i have Gifts many times in my hand and i´m able to play it EOT 4th and even then i lose to aggro...
Then you are playing the card wrong. Why don't you just go something like Wrath, Hierarch, Primal Command, Faith's Fetters and call it a day?
QuoteAnd of course Gifts is a huge CA, but so is LFTL + cycle cards, so is a 4th turn mind twist, or a 1st turn LoA, and like Vazdru said the fairytale of LoA -> win is not that right.
Gifts is often used to set up LFTL engine, but I agree with you on two the latter. They can be frustrating cards to lose against and require less skill to take advantage. I would not mind these two getting banhammered.
Quote
In your meta do you really lose everytime your opponent plays gifts?
No, if my opponent is incompetent or has already lost the game. I lose too sometimes after Gifts when I can't figure right cards for the situation in reasonable time.
QuoteThen you are playing the card wrong. Why don't you just go something like Wrath, Hierarch, Primal Command, Faith's Fetters and call it a day?
Ahh, if only it was as simple of that. 1) you need the right mana, 2) you need to play with all those cards and 3) And even then, it may still be too little.
It's very situational what cards are better, i believe i make the best choice of 4 cards vs the current board/situation most of the times, but sometimes aggro is just that fast.
QuoteGifts is often used to set up LFTL engine, but I agree with you on two the latter. They can be frustrating cards to lose against and require less skill to take advantage. I would not mind these two getting banhammered.
well, i believe that banning cards means that they are just too overpowered most of the times, which isn't the case for LOA and mindtwist, mindtwist isn't as effective vs aggro and LOA in late games with hand empty is a bad draw... It's also frustrating to lose (when you have an entire control of the game) to PoP and BTB and this also don't require that much skill to play either.
Banning cards is not an easy decision.
Gifts to LFTL is very good vs control matchups, but i rarely ever waste a gifts on lftl vs aggro.
Just look at the top3 decks of our league, which i believe to be quite competitive, and you see aggro without Gifts, so gifts isn't really a problem.
Of course gifts is present in many of the top10, but, like i said before, unless it becomes dominant i don't feel it deserves the banhammer
Just my opinion :)
Quote from: Mythrandir on 09-07-2009, 10:10:47 PM
well, i believe that banning cards means that they are just too overpowered most of the times, which isn't the case for LOA and mindtwist, mindtwist isn't as effective vs aggro and LOA in late games with hand empty is a bad draw... It's also frustrating to lose (when you have an entire control of the game) to PoP and BTB and this also don't require that much skill to play either.
Sure, LoA with empty hand is kinda bad, but it is just as bad as any other land. But its kinda frustrating to lose against it every god damn single time when my opponent is LUCKY enough to find it in opening 7 in combo/control vs. combo/control. You are down to 2 outs to cut the tome, and those are Vindicate and Wasteland.
What comes to Buried Alive & Gifts & Survival discussion, its so ridicilous that I don't even bother to comment. Yes, I play a deck that runs all three, and no, Buried Alive isn't the best one from those three. Actually, it was on the cutlist before I heard about the ban, and I'm happy to give room to Karmic Guide once again.
LOA a card two opinions.
I think the card is clearly overpowered. In the oppening hand you get two cards each turn. And even when the opponent plays wasteland against it you still can draw a card, so with the best solution against it you still get advantage out of it. And when your opponent plays vindicate then he looses the best removal only to a land and you still draw a card and get with advantage out of it.
And when you say in the late game the card is useless like mindtwist this is weird. LOA is still a land, and mindtwist still destoys all cards your opponent has.
I think LOA is strict overpowered, and Mindtwist the 1 to x removal spell is also overpowered.