Since there has been some interest of how this deck works (hi mom!), I am going to make some comments about the card choices and the deck as a whole.
First off, the list:
// Lands
1 [R] Bayou
1 [R] Savannah
1 [R] Scrubland
1 [ZEN] Arid Mesa
1 [ZEN] Marsh Flats
1 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
1 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
1 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [ON] Wooded Foothills
1 [ON] Windswept Heath
1 [RAV] Overgrown Tomb
1 [SH] Volrath's Stronghold
1 [RAV] Temple Garden
1 [TE] Wasteland
1 [SHM] Plains
2 [UG] Swamp
1 [GP] Godless Shrine
1 [FUT] Horizon Canopy
1 [US] Gaea's Cradle
1 [US] Phyrexian Tower
1 [IA] Snow-Covered Swamp
2 [IA] Snow-Covered Forest
1 [IA] Snow-Covered Plains
2 [ZEN] Forest
1 [M10] Sunpetal Grove
1 [AP] Caves of Koilos
1 [IA] Brushland
1 [AP] Llanowar Wastes
1 [WWK] Stirring Wildwood // ETB tapped, but fixes, and is a solid body that can be Natural Ordered. I think it's good enough, but this can go either way.
// Creatures
1 [CHK] Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 [SC] Carrion Feeder
1 [ROE] Bloodthrone Vampire
1 [MI] Wall of Roots
1 [MOR] Reveillark
1 [FUT] Tarmogoyf // Not critical, but nice offensive/defensive card, probably needed in the aggro metagame.
1 [UD] Yavimaya Elder
1 [SHM] Kitchen Finks
1 [UD] Academy Rector
1 [ROE] Wall of Omens
1 [SH] Wall of Blossoms
1 [FD] Eternal Witness
1 [10E] Birds of Paradise
1 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
1 [IA] Fyndhorn Elves
1 [FNM] Llanowar Elves
1 [ON] Nantuko Husk
1 [US] Phyrexian Ghoul
1 [M10] Vampire Aristocrat
1 [ALA] Tidehollow Sculler
1 [RAV] Dimir House Guard
1 [DK] Elves of Deep Shadow
1 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary
1 [ZEN] Lotus Cobra
1 [LRW] Shriekmaw
1 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
1 [WWK] Arbor Elf
1 [FUT] Fleshwrither // AcademyRectorcycling, I love it.
1 [CS] Boreal Druid // You need, and want all of these. Even this one. Trust me.
1 [TSP] Saffi Eriksdotter
1 [TO] Mesmeric Fiend // Too weak, perhaps? Has a nice synergy, but miserable without outlets.
1 [CHK] Yosei, the Morning Star
1 [UL] Karmic Guide
1 [WWK] Terastodon
1 [M10] Elvish Visionary // Might be better off as a Sylvan Ranger
1 [M11] Fauna Shaman // MVP, quite the powerhouse in this deck.
1 [M11] Viscera Seer
1 [DIS] Protean Hulk
1 [M11] Obstinate Baloth // Metagame call, not needed in heavy control/combo environment.
// Spells
1 [ROE] Eldrazi Conscription
1 [VI] Natural Order
1 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
1 [LRW] Thoughtseize
1 [M10] Duress
1 [UD] Pattern of Rebirth
1 [PS] Eladamri's Call
1 [EX] Recurring Nightmare
1 [MOR] Idyllic Tutor
1 [R] Demonic Tutor
1 [ARB] Maelstrom Pulse
1 [AP] Vindicate
1 [TE] Living Death
1 [PS] Diabolic Intent
1 [PT] Sylvan Tutor
1 [MI] Worldly Tutor
1 [UD] Yawgmoth's Bargain
1 [FD] Night's Whisper
1 [ZEN] Grim Discovery
1 [LRW] Primal Command
1 [OD] Tainted Pact
1 [ROE] Inquisition of Kozilek // Very good discard that I originally was unsure of. Now I think it's almost as good as Duress in this format.
1 [UL] Crop Rotation
1 [AP] Phyrexian Arena // A metagame call, can be Loxodon Hierarch or something if you expect lot of aggro.
1 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
1 [JU] Cabal Therapy // you have so many discard spells that this can reliably get two cards. Sometimes just gaining information is good enough. Shame that Peek is a blue card.
1 [RAV] Chord of Calling // I had this couple of times in my hand, but I never had enough creatures or mana to make it work properly. I still think this needs to stay in the deck. Just always mulligan it away.
This is not far from the list I played at Tampere (http://www.magicplayer.org/forum/index.php?topic=425.0), but there are some inclusions from m11, and with the unbanning of the Hulk, you can go combo off.
The combo might not be obvious just by looking at the list. It basically goes like this:
1)Get Hulk into play with an sacrifice outlet
2)Sacrifice it, and fetch karmic Guide (targeting Hulk) and one mana sacrifice outlet (just to be sure)
3)Sacrifice Hulk, fetch Saffi Eriksdottir, Tidehollow Sculler, and Mesmeric Fiend
4)Sacrifice the Sculler/Fiend duo while their abilities are on the stack so they remove the cards permanently (this step makes sure you don't need to play around anything)
5)Sacrifice Saffi with her own ability, targetting the Karmic Guide and then sacrifice the Guide, which reanimates Hulk
6)Sacrifice Hulk, and get Reveillark
7)Sacrifice Guide and then Reveillark to reanimate Saffi and Guide (targetting Reveillark)
8)Sacrifice Saffi with her own ability, targetting the Karmic Guide and then sacrifice the Guide, which reanimates the creature whose ETB-ability you want to abuse
Rince and repeat.
With the current creatures in the deck, you are able to gain infinite life (Kitchen Finks, Obstinate Baloth), infinite power and toughness (Nantuko Husk, Carrion Feeder), infinite green mana (Wall of Roots), infinite card draw (Wall of Blossoms), infinite lockdown (Yosei), infinite hand disruption (Tidehollow Sculler), and infinite permanent destruction (Terastodon, Shriekmaw).
Even though you can't usually win on the same turn, the game should be unloseable at this point.
Additional targets for Pattern, Rector and Natural Order are:
- Terastodon (I hate Progenitus with passion as I am always unable to cast him, and all he does is bring a hard to deal clock, which is pretty miserable against decks with wraths, moats, edicts and/or combo kill. Naturally there are a number situations where The Don is just worse than Progenitus, but unless your metagame is really bizarre, stick with this)
- Eldrazi Conscription (Sometimes, you have like Phyrexian Tower as your only means to sacrifice a creature, or you have critical combo piece stuck in your hand. This is for those situations, just fetch and bash)
- Yawgmoth's Bargain (Against control. I am still unsure of this being corret card choice for the matchup, but if you are not able to combo off, or don't want to go off against untapped mana or something, this should bring the card advantage you need to close the deal.)
The decklist feels rather solid, there are several cards you can change depending of the expected decks. At the nationals, I expected more of midrange and control decks and thus this list is light on anti-aggro. I was really glad to see the meta filled with aggro as this is not very common thing in Finland, despite the fact my deck was not geared towards dealing with decks like Naya.
I had couple of good things going for me though: combo is traditionally good against field of aggro, and most game ones saw me combo off before opponent even realized they were in a short clock. This obviously gave me unbelievable advantages as I lost the second game every time I was playing against fast aggro, with the exception of monored burn, which still gave me hard time on the second game, but I managed to Natural Order Obstinate Baloth in the nick of time.
Landbase is far from perfect. Many losses I had were caused by not being able to find green mana, or that at least decimated the rest of my chances to mount a comeback after an aggressive start from the opposition. I am unsure which direction to take the lands, or should I add nonland cards to combat the mana screw (e.g. Sylvan Ranger could be decent here). Needs more testing. There are good number of nonbasics as your mana dorks are able to get you out of the blood moon/back to basics range before it can be played, and sometimes you even have the luxury of fetching nothing but basics. You could probably squeeze one or two more of those though.
Not playing Gifts Ungiven is probably just plain wrong. I am going to try cutting a forest and adding Tropical Island to enable this splash.
If you have questions, comments, and/or criticism, don't be afraid to post them.
What about playing Crypt Champion and some of the "Project X"-Stuff to have some more/other Combo-Options?
Quote from: Pennywise on 10-08-2010, 11:08:21 AM
What about playing Crypt Champion and some of the "Project X"-Stuff to have some more/other Combo-Options?
I forgot to explain about the version pyyhttu played before I settled back to the original list. That deck basically tried to maximize comboing off with cards like Body Snatcher and the like, which I hated to draw. Stretching this deck to another combo with cards you really don't want to draw, is something I'd like to avoid doing. I am not saying it's bad by default as it can help you combo off, but at the same time I enjoy the ability to bring solid beats against combo/control while working on the kill.
I would consider additional combos to add if they have good synergy with the deck (most Project X cards do), the pieces are not horrible without synergy (like Soul Warden and it's kin are), and the added combo direction bypasses graveyard hate (and this is where the P-X lacks big time) as this deck is already very weak against GY hate.
Hey Tiggu, I would like to post your list (maybe with some updates (Kokusho, Angel of Despair instead of Terastodon and Yawgmoths Bargain)on the Highlander blog, since its kinda our Portal for the community. I would explain in short how the deck works and ofc with many colored pictures :D if that works with you.
Can you say some words to tainted Pact?
I never wanted to play it in combodecks like this one since you are often forced to take a combopart whitch needs to bein your library, just not to ruin your gameplan totally.
Quote from: Georg B on 17-08-2010, 06:06:55 PM
Can you say some words to tainted Pact?
I never wanted to play it in combodecks like this one since you are often forced to take a combopart whitch needs to bein your library, just not to ruin your gameplan totally.
You play it a little differently here. The combo in the deck is not needed always, so in a situation where you flip Karmic Guide or something over, you need to figure out if you need that game plan in this game. You are more than happy to grab an Eldamri's Call or Primal Command with this, or often enough, you just take the first land you find. The card does have potential to screw things up, and it's not the most powerful of cards. In fact, I've replaced this with the Gifts Ungiven. It's not a horrible card, but one of the weakest in the deck.
Quote from: Tabris on 17-08-2010, 01:53:06 PM
Hey Tiggu, I would like to post your list (maybe with some updates (Kokusho, Angel of Despair instead of Terastodon and Yawgmoths Bargain)on the Highlander blog, since its kinda our Portal for the community. I would explain in short how the deck works and ofc with many colored pictures :D if that works with you.
Sure. I can also write a little more detailed guide to play the deck, and translate report of the event I've written in Finnish, if that helps.
P.S. I would not add Kokusho or Angel of Despair in the deck. The Terastodon is fetchable via Natural Order, and the fatty in this slot should be accessible with the Order, as well as with the Pattern. I've begun to think that Bargain is also the best anti-control weapon as the others are either not castable, or unable to provide immediate advantage in case opponent has enchantment removal.
Kokusho is not as good as Yosei, and I would have cut Yosei a long time ago if it weren't for that Recurring Nightmare lock. Angel of Despair is a decent beater, but if you spend two cards (Pattern/order and a creature), and 5+ mana, you really want to find something better than a decent beater. You rarely want the game to go on until you can cast seven mana spells, so it's not very good when cast with mana either.
Nevermind the Angel...I absolutly forgot about six mana cost -_-"
but Kokusho kills immediately with the combo going on. I´am very impressed by the deck and I play it often just for the combo going but as you mentioned sometimes you have to go on a aggro-midrange plan.
It would help a lot if you could write some explanations for the blog since its your deck ;)
Quote from: Tabris on 18-08-2010, 02:21:25 AMKokusho kills immediately with the combo going on.
While this is true, there is pretty much not a single situation where killing them immediately is relevant. You leave them with no cards in hand, no permanents in play, you with infinite life, and you can attack for infinite damage the next turn (or on the same turn, if you have a sacrifice outlet without summoning sickness, apart from Viscera Seer).
Quote from: Tabris on 18-08-2010, 02:21:25 AMIt would help a lot if you could write some explanations for the blog since its your deck ;)
I send it to you via PM today. I'll combine the stuff I've written in this thread with the new material, so you can pretty much copy-paste it to the blog, with you own points if you have something to add.
great. looking forward to hearing from you (hihi IT Crowd scene :D )
there you go, I posted your original list, since its your deck I dont want to add my changes.
http://blog.magicplayer.org/2010/08/19/gwb-pattern-rector/ (http://blog.magicplayer.org/2010/08/19/gwb-pattern-rector/)
Great, thanks.
Congrats to Janne for the finish, awesome stuff. (Why did you opt for Turboland for the Ropecon tournament, btw?)
I've been playing a similar deck since Janne placed with it at Tampere with the Hulk-less version, and it's proven to be the perfect panacea for my slight disenchantment with the format. It's just nice to play modular combo. Everything synergizes with everything, so switching gears is quite painless. And then there's the combo. Just lovely.
Here's the list I've been playing so far. (http://deckstats.net/deck-250498-5e6c1d49ae3f300db53873ea11fb5e7a-en.html)
It's definitely suboptimal, and has not been modified since Ropecon. The build is overall a bit slower and more controllish (more removal and draw, less manadorks) than Janne's, and budget constraints definitely rear their ugly head with the loss of Goyf and some expensive lands.
Experiences on some current cards so far:
Inquisition of Kozilek: Gold. Every bit as good as Janne says it is.
Progenitus/Terastodon: Primarily an issue of taste for me at least.
Mesmeric Fiend: I'd keep it, every bit of targeted discard helps.
Sylvan Ranger: Very good. Fixes mana and keeps it Moon-proof.
Also, planned diff from the old list:
Cut: Terramorphic Expanse, Evolving Wilds, Murmuring Bosk, Phyrexian Rager, Harmonize, Mortify, Ranger of Eos
Add: Brushland, Llanowar Wastes, Horizon Canopy, Phyrexian Arena, Gifts Ungiven, Eldrazi Conscription, Viscera Seer
I'll also be testing out Terastodon with the new build to see if it feels better in it, and would like to add Top to it, but not sure on what to cut. Bojuka Bog?
Quote from: Dreamer on 21-08-2010, 04:43:27 AM
Congrats to Janne for the finish, awesome stuff. (Why did you opt for Turboland for the Ropecon tournament, btw?)
Thanks. In the Ropecon there are never very good prizes (I mean, it's basically a free tournament, not much they can do about it), so I decided to play fun, casualish deck. Like pyyhttu, who played a sweet, sweet Food Chain deck. :)
Quote from: Dreamer on 21-08-2010, 04:43:27 AMMesmeric Fiend: I'd keep it, every bit of targeted discard helps.
Sylvan Ranger: Very good. Fixes mana and keeps it Moon-proof.
What comes to Mesmeric Fiend, I agree. You need this even though it's not the most exciting card. Sylvan Ranger I have to test, but it looks decent on paper.
Quote from: Dreamer on 21-08-2010, 04:43:27 AMWould like to add Top to it, but not sure on what to cut. Bojuka Bog?
I doubt I'd ever consider another ETB tapped land to be added besides Stirring Wildwood, so I would cut Bog. I don't like Path to Exile either, it's a decent piece of removal, but you never want to cast it early anyway. Rampart Growthing an opponent is rarely a good idea for the first four turns or so. I cut it immediatly after Tampere, and never looked back.
QuoteI doubt I'd ever consider another ETB tapped land to be added besides Stirring Wildwood, so I would cut Bog. I don't like Path to Exile either, it's a decent piece of removal, but you never want to cast it early anyway. Rampart Growthing an opponent is rarely a good idea for the first four turns or so. I cut it immediatly after Tampere, and never looked back.
Bog would depend a bit on the meta i'd expect. i think it's a solid card. As for PtE i completely share your opinion, it's a very good removal card but you rarely want to play it on early turns.
Quote from: Mythrandir on 22-08-2010, 02:36:52 PM
QuoteI doubt I'd ever consider another ETB tapped land to be added besides Stirring Wildwood, so I would cut Bog. I don't like Path to Exile either, it's a decent piece of removal, but you never want to cast it early anyway. Rampart Growthing an opponent is rarely a good idea for the first four turns or so. I cut it immediatly after Tampere, and never looked back.
Bog would depend a bit on the meta i'd expect. i think it's a solid card. As for PtE i completely share your opinion, it's a very good removal card but you rarely want to play it on early turns.
Bog is a decent, but this deck is so mana hungry in the first four turns that having a land you control come into play tapped is way too much. PtE is good in White aggros, but unless you need removal really desperately in your combo/control, you really shouldn't play it.
New build is up. (http://deckstats.net/deck-253967-329931812ec1d1664a1f472a849fce46-en.html) The changes in my previous post have been incorporated, and Aven Riftwatcher got the boot for Obstinate Baloth. Also stumbled upon a Condemn at random and will be testing it in the Path slot. Should be better than giving them tempo, while still retaining answers to problematic things like Lackey. Still not convinced on the Terastodon, but will keep it in to test more.
In a way, I'd want to include either Therapy or Castigate, but I just hate the idea of playing Therapy in Highlander and Castigate probably just costs too much.
EDIT: Forgot that Congregation got upgraded to Sylvan Tutor, decklist corrected.
So I´ve uploaded a video. It shows how the combo actually works. I choose Kokusho there but ofc a lot of other options would be also considerable.
Btw. I´ve added Archon of Justice instead of Angel of Despair, since it gets the job done as good as Teratodon and Shriekmaw, but can also be good w/o any combo parts on the defense.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aLu2J86q2xw (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aLu2J86q2xw)
That game was just ridiculous, especially just randomly drawing Ghoul and Rector in the first two turns. Still disapprove of Kokusho, though, the Yosei lockdown is usually easily enough (I mean, he's totally tapped out for the next thousand turns or so?), and Yosei synergizes with Recurring Nightmare much better. On the Archon, I'm a bit hesitant. It costs a lot, isn't really big enough to go toe to toe with most of control's stupid, big finishers, and only does relevant stuff when it dies. One mana less and it'd be a monster, but as it is I just don't see it. If you don't like donating your opponent some elephants it'd be far more sensible to replace Terastodon with Woodfall Primus: Big, durable trampler, does it's thing ETB, and can be NatOrdered.
Again, new build is up. (http://deckstats.net/deck-368687-b357d60bcb9f47795574e7a916a29129-en.html) Our shop's meta has been changing more towards all manner of control and mana ramp decks, so cut some unreliable cards and put in more reliable ones. Discard <3
Diff:
- Elvish Visionary, Body Snatcher, Condemn
+ Fyndhorn Elves, Cabal Therapy, Castigate
With Scars we got Skinrender, and I'm quite interested in replacing Damnation with it. The bugger kills or makes irrelevant just about anything while providing a decently-sized body. The only thing that makes me hesitate are the aforementioned mana ramp decks, against which Damnation is just a far better card.
For those who've tried it, how has Gifts been performing? I've drawn it once or so the entire time it's been in the deck, so can't really comment much. What do you see as ideal piles? Something like Rector-Guide-Order-Witness? Or would Pattern-Order-Witness-Regrowth be better? (The latter only if you're using Regrowth in the first place, obviously. I'm still torn between it and Grim Discovery).
I still haven't seen Gifts enough to say how powerful it really is, but I guess the card is just too good not to play it. The real question is: Is Intuition good enough? Also, if you play Gifts, play Regrowth. Grim Discovery is IMO slightly better without the splash, but with the inclusion of Gifts, Regrowth is superior.
Actually, after giving it a bit of thought, I believe the question isn't "Gifts is probably too good not to play. Is Intuition good enough?" but more like "How fast can I add Gifts and Intuition to my deck, and what to cut." Why?
Thinking about it, I realized my general perception of Gifts and Intuition were largely shaped by control decks which played Lark and/or Thopter combo, and, in Intuition's case, Loam. They were tools of inevitability that provided a slow-ish but certain victory.
You once said that Reveillark isn't really the point of the deck. What if we go about answering the Gifts question from a "how can I win NOW / resolve a Tinker" standpoint? Turns out the answer is "If I untap, you die." Why? In control decks, Gifts is traditionally slow as hell because they have to fetch the sacrifice outlet, too, which means the opponent generally dumps Karmic Guide and Body Double to their hand from a basic lark-guide-double-husk stack. You can't go lower than that. We can. And we can just go for the Tinker route. The possibilities are endless as long as the player remembers to not fetch both Rector and Pattern, and, if going for Tinker, to not fetch both Reveillark and Karmic Guide.
For example, a basic Intuition: NatOrder, Rector, Karmic Guide. If you want a four-card Gifts, Living Death is quite nice.
Intuition can be used like control decks use Gifts because of our sac outlet redundancy: Lark, Guide, Living Death/Witness. This is a generally good stack even without a Husk, because it sets up a stupidly strong lategame with all the card advantage and turns all Husks into I Win cards. Control never wants to do it because they have one Husk. We have six, and a metric ton of tutors to boot.
I could ramble on and on, but in the end it's only a matter of what to cut. I believe that in my deck the victim will probably be Wrath or Idyllic Tutor. In yours, Tainted Pact is probably the clear target for a cut.
EDIT:
Intuition-Rector is up. (http://deckstats.net/deck-371004-462ecad13f6966355c17243d2587267f-en.html) Will be playing this one a lot this week to see how it'll end up.
Quote from: Dreamer on 07-11-2010, 11:37:36 PM
Again, new build is up. (http://deckstats.net/deck-368687-b357d60bcb9f47795574e7a916a29129-en.html) Our shop's meta has been changing more towards all manner of control and mana ramp decks, so cut some unreliable cards and put in more reliable ones. Discard <3
Diff:
- Elvish Visionary, Body Snatcher, Condemn
+ Fyndhorn Elves, Cabal Therapy, Castigate
With Scars we got Skinrender, and I'm quite interested in replacing Damnation with it. The bugger kills or makes irrelevant just about anything while providing a decently-sized body. The only thing that makes me hesitate are the aforementioned mana ramp decks, against which Damnation is just a far better card.
For those who've tried it, how has Gifts been performing? I've drawn it once or so the entire time it's been in the deck, so can't really comment much. What do you see as ideal piles? Something like Rector-Guide-Order-Witness? Or would Pattern-Order-Witness-Regrowth be better? (The latter only if you're using Regrowth in the first place, obviously. I'm still torn between it and Grim Discovery).
I have tested Gifts some games and it has been good when i needed that. Sometimes you draw it when you have already all pieces together and you can go and fetch like duress, thoughseize, eternal witness and regrowth. So you can get secured win against control if you don't already have that change. What i like about Gifts is that's versality (yeah really), you just grap what ever you need depending your board position and see another turn with better position or win in best case next turn.
A somewhat random idea that just came to mind: Would it be worth it to test Disfigure or Deathmark in the StP slot? It's still 1-mana removal and can deal with annoying early threats from the opponent, but can also be used for things like killing your own Rector/Patterned creature, something StP simply can't accomplish.
The deck has been through a serious revamping recently, thanks to Jori Hukka (kozel) and Tuomas Pyyhtiä (pyyhttu) for giving me food for thought in form of cards and ideas to take the deck to somewhat another direction. I 4-0'd with this yesterday (played against UB control twice, BG aggro and 4color balls-to-the-walls aggro), so I still think this deck is very much viable. I won by attacking more often than comboing, btw. Without further ado:
// Lands
1 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Arid Mesa
1 Marsh Flats
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Windswept Heath
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Temple Garden
2 Plains
4 Swamp
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Phyrexian Tower
6 Forest
1 Caves of Koilos
1 Brushland
1 Llanowar Wastes
1 Stirring Wildwood
1 Godless Shrine
// Creatures
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Carrion Feeder
1 Bloodthrone Vampire
1 Wall of Roots
1 Reveillark
1 Yavimaya Elder
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Academy Rector
1 Wall of Omens
1 Wall of Blossoms
1 Eternal Witness
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Noble Hierarch
1 Fyndhorn Elves
1 Llanowar Elves
1 Tidehollow Sculler
1 Dimir House Guard
1 Elves of Deep Shadow
1 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Lotus Cobra
1 Shriekmaw
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Arbor Elf
1 Saffi Eriksdotter
1 Yosei, the Morning Star
1 Karmic Guide
1 Terastodon
1 Fauna Shaman
1 Viscera Seer
1 Protean Hulk
1 Sylvan Ranger
1 Skinrender
1 Grave Titan
1 Ravenous Baloth // Eats Protean Hulks
1 Stoneforge Mystic // Really sick against control, won me two games
1 Ranger of Eos // Needs one more good target to cement this slot
1 Sun Titan // Synergistic, but I am still unsure. Does combo with Saffi and sac-outlet
1 Yavimaya Dryad // Still rather torn by this, I guess it's okay
1 Nest Invader // Another test slot, decent, but I want better cards
1 Necrotic Ooze // I knew this being rather weak going in to the tournament, but tested it anyways. Will be cut
// Spells
1 Natural Order
1 Thoughtseize
1 Duress
1 Pattern of Rebirth
1 Eladamri's Call
1 Recurring Nightmare
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Vindicate
1 Living Death
1 Diabolic Intent
1 Chord of Calling
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
1 Grim Discovery
1 Primal Command
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Crop Rotation
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Worldly Tutor
1 Sylvan Tutor
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Phyrexian Arena
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Faith's Fetters // I really want Wizards to print a better anti-aggro card. Not horrible, but still kinda meh
Most notable difference is that I have no three-drop sac-outlets as they don't really do enough. I also cut Boreal Druid (which I want back in as soon as I found a way), some of the worst tutors and trimmed the mana base (which still needs work). Also, no blue as I didn't have the time and energy to find out how big the splash is going to be and if it's even worth it. Also the new more aggroish approach really doesn't go well with the Gifts, despite it being obviously sick.
Questions, comments, flames?
You should've posted this yesterday evening. Tuomas was driving me insane with curiosity in the chat last night :P
Build looks nice, I like Ranger, Skinrender and the Stoneforge package quite a bit. Sun Titan seems a wee bit weird, but could work I guess.
I've been handling the blue splash in the oldschool build with just Trop, Island, Gifts, Intuition. It's been good thus far, but would probably feel quite iffy with the beatdown build. Whoa, just noticed Grave Titan! Looks intriguing.
Anyway, to the uncertain slots: Besieged gives us Green Sun's Zenith and Viridian Emissary, both of which should fit here very nicely, especially together. (I'll definitely be trying Emissary in my shop - red and black out the wazoo, with relatively little in the way of white-heavy decks) If we go so far as to play Dryad Arbor, Green Sun would even give us another mana dork and a way to sac fetch=>Tinker=>win. Also fetchable by Ranger for lols.
If we're emphasizing the beatdown, how about Scute Mob? Bugger is a monster lategame, and with an additional recursion engine in the form of Titan, it could turn into something very evil very quickly.
Thrun instead of Fetters? Overgrown Battlement? A singleton Wrath effect? Vampire Nighthawk? Infest?
Quote from: Dreamer on 03-02-2011, 04:03:31 PMYou should've posted this yesterday evening. Tuomas was driving me insane with curiosity in the chat last night :P
Where is the fun in that?
Quote from: Dreamer on 03-02-2011, 04:03:31 PMI've been handling the blue splash in the oldschool build with just Trop, Island, Gifts, Intuition. It's been good thus far, but would probably feel quite iffy with the beatdown build. Whoa, just noticed Grave Titan! Looks intriguing.
That looks like the right amount of blue, but I won't be trying it with this build. Grave Titan is pretty sweet, providing defense and offense at the same time.
Quote from: Dreamer on 03-02-2011, 04:03:31 PMAnyway, to the uncertain slots: Besieged gives us Green Sun's Zenith and Viridian Emissary, both of which should fit here very nicely, especially together. (I'll definitely be trying Emissary in my shop - red and black out the wazoo, with relatively little in the way of white-heavy decks) If we go so far as to play Dryad Arbor, Green Sun would even give us another mana dork and a way to sac fetch=>Tinker=>win. Also fetchable by Ranger for lols.
Emissary is pretty weak, but it could theoretically be decent in the old version with more sac-effects, but I don't even want to try it here. Zenith is the obvious nuts.
Arbor is something that has lots of synergy, but I don't think there is anything that is weak enough to get cut to make room for it. I still think it's pretty weak card and the new approach requires cards to be powerful rather than being useful in marginal situations.
Quote from: Dreamer on 03-02-2011, 04:03:31 PMIf we're emphasizing the beatdown, how about Scute Mob? Bugger is a monster lategame, and with an additional recursion engine in the form of Titan, it could turn into something very evil very quickly.
Thrun instead of Fetters? Overgrown Battlement? A singleton Wrath effect? Vampire Nighthawk? Infest?
Scute Mob is just a bashing dork that has no synergy, I'd rather just play Tarmogoyf if I wanted to go that way. Instead of just beating down, I think this deck needs it's creatures to have two modes: Generating card advantage and/or comboing (tutors, NO, Rector, Pattern...). This gives us the possibility of attacking in multiple angles, which really puts the opponent in tough spots at times.
I forgot to clarify the purpose of Faith's Fetters. It's there to be tutored by Academy Rector (and Dimir House Guard). There are better anti-aggro cards, but not something that is both castable and rectorable.
Hi,
I am toying with this deck about two months. I have also tried version with blue, but it has quite unstable manabase. I have tried implement multiple combos in this deck - Squrrel Nest/Earthcraft + Dark depths. Nest was not shockingly good, but I kept dark depts combo in deck. Deck contains all cards, that supports dark depths combo in normal BG agro control + even more tutors. My next focus was the manabase, I wanted it as stable as possible. This deck usually wins either through combo or recursion. Very rarely I manage to win through pure agro plan.
// Lands
2 [IA] Snow-Covered Plains
3 [IA] Snow-Covered Forest
3 [IA] Snow-Covered Swamp
1 [A] Scrubland
1 [A] Bayou
1 [A] Savannah
1 [RAV] Overgrown Tomb
1 [RAV] Temple Garden
1 [GP] Godless Shrine
1 [EVE] Twilight Mire
1 [EVE] Fetid Heath
1 [SHM] Wooded Bastion
1 [ON] Wooded Foothills
1 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [ON] Windswept Heath
1 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
1 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [ZEN] Arid Mesa
1 [ZEN] Marsh Flats
1 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
1 [TE] Wasteland
1 [SH] Volrath's Stronghold
1 [US] Phyrexian Tower
1 [CS] Dark Depths
1 [PLC] Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog //tutorable grave hate
1 [TE] Reflecting Pool
1 [FUT] Horizon Canopy
1 [WWK] Khalni Garden //meat for pattern rebirth or Eldrazi conscription or Recuring nightmare
1 [FUT] Dryad Arbor //same here
//Acceleration
1 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
1 [A] Llanowar Elves
1 [IA] Fyndhorn Elves
1 [RAV] Elves of Deep Shadow
1 [WWK] Arbor Elf
1 [RAV] Birds of Paradise
1 [CHK] Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 [MI] Wall of Roots
1 [MBS] Viridian Emissary //I am testing it, but I kind like it + mana stability(only one green in cost) - I play full load of sac. outlets
1 [M11] Sylvan Ranger //again good meet + mana stability(only one green in cost)
1 [LRW] Garruk Wildspeaker
//Combo
1 [DIS] Protean Hulk
1 [UD] Academy Rector
1 [UL] Karmic Guide
1 [CHK] Yosei, the Morning Star
1 [TSP] Saffi Eriksdotter
1 [MOR] Reveillark
1 [ZEN] Vampire Hexmage
1 [ROE] Eldrazi Conscription
//Sac. outlets
1 [M11] Viscera Seer
1 [SC] Carrion Feeder
1 [M11] Bloodthrone Vampire
1 [ON] Nantuko Husk
1 [US] Phyrexian Ghoul
1 [RAV] Dimir House Guard
1 [EX] Recurring Nightmare
//Toolkit
1 [UL] Bone Shredder
1 [FD] Eternal Witness
1 [LRW] Shriekmaw
1 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary
1 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
1 [TSP] Harmonic Sliver //can get rid of pesky enchantment/artifact (tutorable with zenith) + meat
1 [ALA] Tidehollow Sculler
1 [FUT] Aven Mindcensor //screws other combo, slow down control - I am pretty sattisfied with him
1 [M11] Sun Titan //Exelect creature here, it can revive Animate death + majority of dorks
1 [WWK] Terastodon //sometime I wish it is Progenitus, but sometimes it has stunning perfomance - time will tell
//Defense + survival
1 [SH] Wall of Blossoms
1 [ROE] Wall of Omens
1 [M11] Obstinate Baloth
1 [SHM] Kitchen Finks
// Tutors
1 [M11] Fauna Shaman
1 [PS] Diabolic Intent
1 [R] Demonic Tutor
1 [UL] Crop Rotation //Dark Depths, V. Stronghold, Wasteland, Phyrexian Tower
1 [PS] Eladamri's Call
1 [UD] Pattern of Rebirth
1 [MOR] Idyllic Tutor
1 [MI] Worldly Tutor
1 [PT] Natural Order
1 [LRW] Primal Command
1 [CS] Into the North //finds Dark Depths or ramps
1 [RAV] Shred Memory //either grave hate, but most likely tutor for hexmage, Diabolic tutor, sac outlet, Regrowth or Animate Death
1 [MBS] Green Sun's Zenith //i haven't tested it much, but I feel it fits in the deck
//Removal
1 [AT] Swords to Plowshares
1 [LRW] Oblivion Ring
1 [RAV] Putrefy
1 [AP] Vindicate
1 [ARB] Maelstrom Pulse
1 [7E] Wrath of God //sometimes comes handy
//Discard
1 [M10] Duress
1 [LRW] Thoughtseize
1 [AT] Hymn to Tourach
1 [ROE] Inquisition of Kozilek
//Unsorted
1 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
1 [SHM] Manamorphose //not necessary, but when comes to blood moon, it can come handy - can be cut
1 [R] Regrowth
1 [AP] Phyrexian Arena
1 [R] Animate Dead //so synergistic in this deck! can be tutored and easily casted to gain ones more ETB trigger(Shriekmaw or Shredder) or simply return countered Rector.
Due to Animate Dead and Sun Titan deck offers some new possiblities when comboing or when essential creature for combo is missing. So far I miss some cards like Lotus Cobra + Sylvan tutor.
Let me know your thoughts.
Quote from: Ball.Lightning on 22-02-2011, 02:06:27 AM
1 [CS] Dark Depths
1 [ZEN] Vampire Hexmage
I don't like this combo at all in HL. The amount of tutoring and trouble you go through to get 20/20 indestructible flier is ultimately not worth it. There are ways to deal with Marit Lage and it can be chumped until forever. It was great combo in extended because people could randomly draw it and execute it very early in the game. Urborg and Thoughtseize into Depths + Hexmage is not something most decks can recover from. In HL, those sick draws are practically nonexistent.
Quote from: Ball.Lightning on 22-02-2011, 02:06:27 AM1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog //tutorable grave hate
pyyhttu has had success with that. What comes to me, I haven't been on a situation where I would need it, so it stays out. ETB tapped lands is something I want to avoid with this deck.
Quote from: Ball.Lightning on 22-02-2011, 02:06:27 AM1 [WWK] Khalni Garden //meat for pattern rebirth or Eldrazi conscription or Recuring nightmare
1 [FUT] Dryad Arbor //same here
Last tournament I played there was one game where having Dryad Arbor in my deck would have allowed me to combo off, but the game was close to being over at that point anyways. I think I would get annoyed by the downsides these cards have way more often than they would allow me to win a game that I would otherwise lose. I don't deny their synergism and your deck is clearly more combo-oriented than my current build, so it might be correct to play these.
Quote from: Ball.Lightning on 22-02-2011, 02:06:27 AM1 [M11] Sylvan Ranger //again good meet + mana stability(only one green in cost)
1 [LRW] Garruk Wildspeaker
Ranger I like very much. Has been solid since the first time I drew him. I've been unimpressed by Garruk, but it's not too bad of a card. Little weak on the synergy, feels like more purely aggressive card.
Quote from: Ball.Lightning on 22-02-2011, 02:06:27 AM1 [ROE] Eldrazi Conscription
Since the introduction of Hulk, I don't think this card is needed. I have been in situations where this would have helped, but from the top of my head, I cannot remember losing because I did not have this option. I guess this gets better with the aggro-approach, so I probably should re-evaluate this in that context.
Quote from: Ball.Lightning on 22-02-2011, 02:06:27 AM1 [UL] Bone Shredder
I find Skinrender way better. Actually has meat around his bones and can deal with black guys.
Quote from: Ball.Lightning on 22-02-2011, 02:06:27 AM1 [TSP] Harmonic Sliver //can get rid of pesky enchantment/artifact (tutorable with zenith) + meat
You already have Pridemage, no need for three mana 1/1 IMO.
Quote from: Ball.Lightning on 22-02-2011, 02:06:27 AM1 [FUT] Aven Mindcensor //screws other combo, slow down control - I am pretty sattisfied with him
I've been ignoring this because of no synergy. Respectable creature nonetheless, but I really don't want this to be target of opposing Treachery either. Really great in the mirror.
Quote from: Ball.Lightning on 22-02-2011, 02:06:27 AM1 [M11] Sun Titan //Exelect creature here, it can revive Animate death + majority of dorks
I have also been impressed by this guy recently. Earned his slot, I think.
Quote from: Ball.Lightning on 22-02-2011, 02:06:27 AM1 [WWK] Terastodon //sometime I wish it is Progenitus, but sometimes it has stunning perfomance - time will tell
95% I rather play against Progenitus, than Terastodon. Progenitus is better, if your opponent has lots of spot removal (or control magic) and the board is somewhat even. Terastodon is better early in the game (nuke two of their lands on turn three and the game is probably over) and if the opponent has troublesome noncreature permanents (pretty self-explanatory). I've been using Terastodon to remove my Bargain when my life dropped too low as well.
Quote from: Ball.Lightning on 22-02-2011, 02:06:27 AM1 [M11] Obstinate Baloth
I switched to Ravenous Baloth when pyyhttu pointed out that it eats Hulks. The synergy makes Ravenous better, me thinks.
Quote from: Ball.Lightning on 22-02-2011, 02:06:27 AM1 [SHM] Manamorphose //not necessary, but when comes to blood moon, it can come handy - can be cut
Between the one drop accelerants, Sakura and Sylvan Ranger, Blood Moon is probably not an issue most of the time. I think you are better off with a card that does more than cycle.
Quote from: Ball.Lightning on 22-02-2011, 02:06:27 AM1 [R] Animate Dead //so synergistic in this deck! can be tutored and easily casted to gain ones more ETB trigger(Shriekmaw or Shredder) or simply return countered Rector.
I had Reanimate in the deck for a while and it was okay, but the life loss was too much in the end. I considered this, but decided the one mana was too much. It has gotten more synergistic with Sun Titan, so it's another card I need to re-evaluate by testing.
Quote from: Ball.Lightning on 22-02-2011, 02:06:27 AMDue to Animate Dead and Sun Titan deck offers some new possiblities when comboing or when essential creature for combo is missing. So far I miss some cards like Lotus Cobra + Sylvan tutor.
I think Lotus Cobra is not a card this deck wants. Decent acceleration and fixing, but too random and unreliable. At two mana and one toughness, it's way more prone to creature removal, so mulliganing your hand around this mythic snake is very risky.
I don´t know if i should play Terastodon or Woodfall Primus in my build with 7 Husks and Gifts + Intuition.
Terastodon can destroy 3 risky cards but with Wooldfall Primus your Opponent doesn´t get the elephants.
The same question: Sun Titan or Grave Titan?
Pro Sun Titan: can combo with some cards (Saffi,Animate Dead, etc.)
better vs. board control decks
Pro Grave Titan: good pattern target vs. aggro if we have no sac effect
opponent needs another kind of "Grave hate"
Is there a card i can´t see or why is Green Sun´s Zenit a good card for this deck?
It fetchs only green Creatures (mana dorks, Qasali, Finks, KotR, Witness)
There are only Fauna Shaman and Ravenous Baloth for the Combo( I think is it not for fetching Hulk with 8 mana).
Quote from: Essah on 22-02-2011, 05:00:49 PM
I don´t know if i should play Terastodon or Woodfall Primus in my build with 7 Husks and Gifts + Intuition.
Terastodon can destroy 3 risky cards but with Wooldfall Primus your Opponent doesn´t get the elephants.
Most of the time, Terastodon destroys two of the opposing permanents and a land from you, which means they can't trade your Terastodon with the elephants. Against decks that has no straight up removal (GR, Burn...etc.), you can just go blowing your own lands and swing with 18 power next turn.
Quote from: Essah on 22-02-2011, 05:00:49 PMThe same question: Sun Titan or Grave Titan?
Pro Sun Titan: can combo with some cards (Saffi,Animate Dead, etc.)
better vs. board control decks
Pro Grave Titan: good pattern target vs. aggro if we have no sac effect
opponent needs another kind of "Grave hate"
I have them both, Grave Titan is probably better if you want to run just one (love that pun, btw). Opponent needs to deal with it or they just lose. Recurring Nightmare + GT is also really sick.
Quote from: Essah on 22-02-2011, 05:00:49 PMIs there a card i can´t see or why is Green Sun´s Zenit a good card for this deck?
It fetchs only green Creatures (mana dorks, Qasali, Finks, KotR, Witness)
There are only Fauna Shaman and Ravenous Baloth for the Combo( I think is it not for fetching Hulk with 8 mana).
Last tournament I cast it twice: Once for Fauna Shaman and once for Hulk for the win. I like to think it as a Fauna Shaman #2, as even at just three mana, Fauna Shaman pretty awesome. Against control I usually go for Yavimaya Elder for card advantage, and against aggro, Finks is pretty sweet. Zenith is good no matter the match-up and the turn you draw it.
On Dark Depths:
It is true, that to tutor whole combo one must be pretty desperate. But Hexmage is pretty solid creature on its own and Depths is just the way to abuse it. I like to have some backup plan, when my oponent wrecks continuously my GY. Can bring some suprising wins.
On Garruk:
Garruk gives us a creature for Natural Order, ramps to Sun Titan, Hulk or even Terastrodon. Sometimes he can bring one turn clock for oponent via overrun. I agree, that he is not a must. I thought of removing him, but he is still very powerful card.
On Consctription:
I tried version with it and without it. I need more testing to bring judgement on this. This card makes A.Rector even more dangerous, because without this in deck, one need 2 other creatures besides rector in play (one of them sac. outlet) to make hulk combo work - this is sometimes hard to achieve. With Eldrazi Conscr. any creature + one shot sacrifice efect can run the avalanche.
On Bone Shredder:
I like the fact, he is 3cmc so works great with Sun Titan - Accually he is best creature working with him. I will test Skinrender though.
Last word on Harmonic Sliver:
I grade Quasali < Sliver. Sliver leaves small but important body behind him after it does its job. To combo of deck needs a least one creature for Conscription or Recuring Nightmare. "Body or no-body matters" ;-)
Quote from: Ball.Lightning on 22-02-2011, 09:24:28 PM
On Dark Depths:
It is true, that to tutor whole combo one must be pretty desperate. But Hexmage is pretty solid creature on its own and Depths is just the way to abuse it. I like to have some backup plan, when my oponent wrecks continuously my GY. Can bring some suprising wins.
I don't grade Hexmage too good of a card, but it's not the worst. However, I still think Grave Titan and Stoneforge Mystic are better alternative plans.
Quote from: Ball.Lightning on 22-02-2011, 09:24:28 PMOn Bone Shredder:
I like the fact, he is 3cmc so works great with Sun Titan - Accually he is best creature working with him. I will test Skinrender though.
It's sick synergy, all right. It's not a horrible card either, but I rather have a decent-sized body around. I do suspect that Shredder might be better in four colored version.
Quote from: Ball.Lightning on 22-02-2011, 09:24:28 PMLast word on Harmonic Sliver:
I grade Quasali < Sliver. Sliver leaves small but important body behind him after it does its job. To combo of deck needs a least one creature for Conscription or Recuring Nightmare. "Body or no-body matters" ;-)
Qasali is better when there are no targets. Beats for three, costs less, and the Exalted helps getting damage through. Harmonic's ETB is also not optional, so it will destroy stuff, regardless if you want it to or not. Deck that has some decent targets can't completely ignore that. Last but not least, you can have active Pattern without sac-outlets, if you have the Pridemage.
Bump. I reconstructed the deck again. Went back to the original dedicated combo style with GBW colors, 3cc Husks and whatnot, although Stoneforge+UR+GB swords package was too easy and insane not to include. I just found I like it much more than Janne's beatdown version with the Titans. Still missing real duals and Cradle : /
Will post decklist later this week.
@Tiggupiru Speaking of the beatdown list, did you play the beatdown version, did you play it in the champs or did Birthing Pod steer you into a more combo-oriented direction again?
Quote from: Dreamer on 17-05-2011, 03:49:57 PM
Bump. I reconstructed the deck again. Went back to the original dedicated combo style with GBW colors, 3cc Husks and whatnot, although Stoneforge+UR+GB swords package was too easy and insane not to include. I just found I like it much more than Janne's beatdown version with the Titans. Still missing real duals and Cradle : /
Will post decklist later this week.
@Tiggupiru Speaking of the beatdown list, did you play the beatdown version, did you play it in the champs or did Birthing Pod steer you into a more combo-oriented direction again?
More beatdown oriented. I dropped the Sun Titan, because I had trouble generating double white. Sun Titan does get better with the Pod, so that might have been a mistake.
Quote from: Dreamer on 17-05-2011, 03:49:57 PM...Will post decklist later this week...
Can you update your list?
I would build a pure combo-version of this deck.
with all good tutors, includes flesh writer, green sun zenith and the new birthing pod!
//Rector Pod
//Creatures:
Birds of Paradise
Noble Hierarch
Elves of Deep Shadow
Arbor Elf
Fyndhorn Elves
Llanowar Elves
Viscera Seer
Carrion Feeder
Bloodthrone Vampire
Saffi Eriksdotter
Fauna Shaman
Wall of Roots
Lotus Cobra
Sakura-Tribe Elder
Sylvan Ranger
Wall of Blossoms
Qasali Pridemage
Stoneforge Mystic
Tidehollow Sculler
Mesmeric Fiend
Knight of the Reliquary
Nantuko Husk
Phyrexian Ghoul
Yavimaya Elder
Eternal Witness
Kitchen Finks
Academy Rector
Ranger of Eos
Ravenous Baloth //Eats Hulk
Skinrender
Fleshwrither
Dimir House Guard
Phyrexian Metamorph //Test slot
Karmic Guide
Reveillark
Shriekmaw
Yosei, the Morning Star
Protean Hulk
Terastodon
//Other permanents:
Sensei's Divining Top
Sword of Fire and Ice
Sword of Feast and Famine
Recurring Nightmare
Phyrexian Arena
Oblivion Ring
Birthing Pod
Faith's Fetters
Pattern of Rebirth
Debtors' Knell //Test slot
//Other spells:
Inquisition of Kozilek
Duress
Thoughtseize
Worldly Tutor
Sylvan Tutor
Crop Rotation
Swords to Plowshares
Eladamri's Call
Grim Discovery
Demonic Tutor
Diabolic Intent
Vindicate
Maelstrom Pulse
Natural Order
Primal Command
Living Death
Green Sun's Zenith
Chord of Calling
//Lands:
5x Forest
4x Plains
3x Swamp
Arid Mesa
Wooded Foothills
Marsh Flats
Polluted Delta
Misty Rainforest
Flooded Strand
Windswept Heath
Verdant Catacombs
Temple Garden
Overgrown Tomb
Godless Shrine
Reflecting Pool
Brushland
Llanowar Wastes
Sunpetal Grove
Twilight Mire
Wooded Bastion
Horizon Canopy
Stirring Wildwood
Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
Wasteland
Volrath's Stronghold
Phyrexian Tower
Notes on deck:
No duals/Cradle due to budget
Probably 101 or 102 cards
Holyshit it's good to be playing combo again
Conscription is probably better than Knell, but I'll keep testing for a while moar.
Modified the deck again. After a brief stint with the blue splash, I just came to the conclusion that it takes up too much space - the deck is already bursting apart from all the good tutors! Soon we don't have any cards that actually do stuff left! Main changes from the above list are:
1. Going back to Conscription - Knell was fine sometimes, but overall it was more cute than effective. Same for Progenitus in the same slot. Conscription's strength is that it requires less from the board and doesn't consume the Pattern from the deck. Progenitus has neither of these.
2. Adding Dryad Arbor. It's just too versatile to not use. Turns Chord and Green Sun into mana accelerants, and gives that elusive extra body from out of thin air. Yeah, drawing it sucks. So does drawing Hulk.
3. Xantid Swarm and Starved Rusalka. Rusalka is Green Sun/Natural Order fodder, and Xantid self-explanatory. I want to see if having a disruptive Ranger target is any good or not.
//Pattern-Rector
//Creatures:
Birds of Paradise
Noble Hierarch
Elves of Deep Shadow
Arbor Elf
Fyndhorn Elves
Llanowar Elves
Viscera Seer
Carrion Feeder
Starved Rusalka
Xantid Swarm
Bloodthrone Vampire
Saffi Eriksdotter
Fauna Shaman
Wall of Roots
Lotus Cobra
Sakura-Tribe Elder
Sylvan Ranger
Wall of Blossoms
Qasali Pridemage
Stoneforge Mystic
Tidehollow Sculler
Knight of the Reliquary
Nantuko Husk
Phyrexian Ghoul
Yavimaya Elder
Eternal Witness
Kitchen Finks
Academy Rector
Ranger of Eos
Ravenous Baloth
Skinrender
Fleshwrither
Dimir House Guard
Entomber Exarch
Reveillark
Karmic Guide
Shriekmaw
Yosei, the Morning Star
Protean Hulk
Terastodon
//Other permanents:
Sensei's Divining Top
Sword of Fire and Ice
Sword of Feast and Famine
Recurring Nightmare
Oblivion Ring
Birthing Pod
Pattern of Rebirth
Faith's Fetters
Yawgmoth's Bargain
Eldrazi Conscription
//Other spells:
Inquisition of Kozilek
Duress
Thoughtseize
Worldly Tutor
Sylvan Tutor
Crop Rotation
Eladamri's Call
Regrowth
Demonic Tutor
Diabolic Intent
Vindicate
Maelstrom Pulse
Natural Order
Primal Command
Living Death
Green Sun's Zenith
Chord of Calling
//Lands:
5 Forest
4 Plains
3 Swamp
Arid Mesa
Wooded Foothills
Marsh Flats
Polluted Delta
Misty Rainforest
Flooded Strand
Windswept Heath
Verdant Catacombs
Temple Garden
Overgrown Tomb
Godless Shrine
Brushland
Llanowar Wastes
Sunpetal Grove
Twilight Mire
Wooded Bastion
Horizon Canopy
Stirring Wildwood
Dryad Arbor
Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
Wasteland
Volrath's Stronghold
Phyrexian Tower
//TODO:
Add Metamorph. What to cut is the eternal problem : /
New version:
- Entomber Exarch (lackluster)
- Sylvan Ranger
- Faith's Fetters
+ Phyrexian Metamorph (just too good)
+ Viridian Emissary (just better than Ranger)
+ Beast Within (testing, should be more widely useful)
Also, been toying with:
- some card (Crop Rotation or Living Death?)
+ Primeval Titan
Here's Markku Heikkilä's list from Ropecon (7th place, although the tournament isn't terribly serious):
Fyndhorn Elves
Llanowar Elves
Arbor Elf
Elves of Deep Shadow
Boreal Druid
Noble Hierarch
Birds of Paradise
Lotus Cobra
Viridian Emissary
Sylvan Ranger
Sakura-tribe Elder
Wall of Roots
Wall of Blossoms
Wall of Omens
Eternal Witness
Knight of the Reliquary
Kitchen Finks
Yavimaya Elder
Qasali Pridemage
Fauna Shaman
Stoneforge Mystic
Tidehollow Sculler
Saffi Eriksdotter
Carrion Feeder
Viscera Seer
Bloodthrone Vampire
Academy Rector
Skinrender
Ravenous Baloth
Fleshwrither
Dimir House Guard
Phyrexian Metamorph
Shriekmaw
Reveillark
Karmic Guide
Yosei, the Morning Star
Grave Titan
Terastodon
Protean Hulk
Thoughtseize
Duress
Inquisition of Kozilek
Sylvan Tutor
Worldly Tutor
Crop Rotation
Green Sun's Zenith
Sensei's Divining Top
Swords to Plowshares
Demonic Tutor
Diabolic Intent
Eladamri's Call
Grim Discovery
Chord of Calling
Recurring Nightmare
Oblivion Ring
Maelstrom Pulse
Vindicate
Beast Within
Sword of Fire and Ice
Sword of Light and Shadow
Birthing Pod
Pattern of Rebirth
Natural Order
Living Death
Primal Command
Eldrazi Conscription
Savannah
Bayou
Scrubland
Temple Garden
Overgrown Tomb
Godless Shrine
Misty Rainforest
Verdant Catacombs
Wooded Foothills
Marsh Flats
Polluted Delta
Windswept Heath
Arid Mesa
Bloodstained Mire
Flooded Strand
Razorverge Thicket
Stirring Wildwood
Llanowar Wastes
Phyrexian Tower
Volrath's Stronghold
Dryad Arbor
Horizon Canopy
Fetid Heath
4 Swamp
5 Forest
2 Plains
More mana, less Husks, Grave Titan over Bargain and Beast Within over Fetters, otherwise pretty standard.
It's raining decklists! My new build:
Full changelist from previous posted list:
- Ranger of Eos
- Nantuko Husk
- Xantid Swarm
- Starved Rusalka
- Entomber Exarch
- Faith's Fetters
+ Phyrexian Metamorph
+ Viridian Emissary
+ Beast Within
+ Mesmeric Fiend
+ Primeval Titan
+ Grave Titan
Fetters=>Beast Within
Eos=> Primeval
Xantid=>Mesmeric
Just cards that do the same stuff, but better. With Eos gone, Xantid and Rusalka lose their reason for being in the deck.
Primeval in particular I see as being better than Sun Titan: It provides graveyard recursion, a sacrifice outlet, is green and just ramps.
If I really need an extra body for some reason, I can fetch Arbor anyway.
Rusalka => Emissary
Exarch => Metamorph
Husk => Grave Titan
No need for Rusalka, so in with the mana. Otherwise all three are just general workhorse cards that annoy everyone somehow.
//Creatures:
Birds of Paradise
Noble Hierarch
Elves of Deep Shadow
Arbor Elf
Fyndhorn Elves
Llanowar Elves
Viscera Seer
Carrion Feeder
Bloodthrone Vampire
Saffi Eriksdotter
Fauna Shaman
Wall of Roots
Lotus Cobra
Overgrown Battlement
Sakura-Tribe Elder
Viridian Emissary
Sylvan Ranger
Wall of Blossoms
Qasali Pridemage
Stoneforge Mystic
Tidehollow Sculler
Mesmeric Fiend
Knight of the Reliquary
Phyrexian Ghoul
Yavimaya Elder
Eternal Witness
Kitchen Finks
Academy Rector
Ravenous Baloth
Skinrender
Fleshwrither
Dimir House Guard
Phyrexian Metamorph
Thrun, the Last Troll
Reveillark
Karmic Guide
Shriekmaw
Yosei, the Morning Star
Primeval Titan
Grave Titan
Protean Hulk
Terastodon
//Other permanents:
Sensei's Divining Top
Sword of Fire and Ice
Sword of Feast and Famine
Sword of Light and Shadow
Recurring Nightmare
Oblivion Ring
Birthing Pod
Pattern of Rebirth
Batterskull
Yawgmoth's Bargain
Eldrazi Conscription
//Other spells:
Inquisition of Kozilek
Duress
Thoughtseize
Worldly Tutor
Sylvan Tutor
Crop Rotation
Eladamri's Call
Regrowth
Demonic Tutor
Diabolic Intent
Vindicate
Maelstrom Pulse
Beast Within
Natural Order
Primal Command
Living Death
Green Sun's Zenith
Chord of Calling
//Lands:
5 Forest
4 Plains
3 Swamp
Arid Mesa
Wooded Foothills
Marsh Flats
Polluted Delta
Misty Rainforest
Flooded Strand
Windswept Heath
Verdant Catacombs
Temple Garden
Overgrown Tomb
Godless Shrine
Brushland
Llanowar Wastes
Sunpetal Grove
Twilight Mire
Wooded Bastion
Horizon Canopy
Stirring Wildwood
Dryad Arbor
Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
Wasteland
Volrath's Stronghold
Phyrexian Tower
EDIT: Some stuff out, some stuff in
A combo/control remix of the above:
- Stoneforge Mystic
- Sword of Fire and Ice
- Sword of Feast and Famine
- Yawgmoth's Bargain
- Urborg
- Plains
+ Intuition
+ Gifts Ungiven
+ Fleshbag Marauder
+ Devoted Druid
+ Tropical Island
+ Island
Absolutely no idea if this will work, but I'm going to try. Because, let's face it, Stoneforge is just fucking boring. Now, Intuition for Rector, Order, Nightmare? Gifts for Titan, Titan, Witness, Nightmare or something? I'm loving it already.
Fleshbag Marauder removal that hits black and is a creature. Random side-effects include transforming your own guys into beaters and blanking Exhume. Whether it's correct is anyone's guess. Devoted Druid is green, a creature, explosive mana, and kills itself. Sounds like something worth testing.
That's all folks.
Just want to say:
Finally a Pattern-Rector deck which got into T8 at a huge tournament. I hope I get the list from the player who beat me in the quarterfinals :|
Hi there,
I made 4th place at the Highlander event at the german nationals with Gbw Pattern-Rector.
Regarding my list those are the changes (I know of) to the list posted on Tabris (?) blog from fall 2010:
creatures:
- Vampire aristocrat
- fleshwrither
- Boreal druid
- elvish visionary
- obstinate baloth
+ Ravenous Baloth
+ Thrun, the last Troll
+ Stoneforge Mystic
+ Skinrender
+ Shriekmaw
non creatures:
- Idyllic tutor
- night's whisper
- grim discovery
- tainted pact
- phyrexian arena
- cabal therapy
+ Sword of fire and ice
+ batterskull
+ birthing pod
+ green sun's zenith
+ Inquisition of Kozilek
+ Oblivion Ring
Cards I missed or cut (and was wrong about):
phyrexian arena
sunpetal grove
garruk (4cc)
Decks I played against:
I played against (in no particular order)
u/w Tempo (with evasion beatdown)
u/g Tempo (with evasion beatdown)
Gbw Rock deck
3* generic Goodstuff lists (1 loss)
ID 7th round
Quarterfinals:
U/G aggro/control
Semifinals:
generic goodstuff again
Some stuff I remember about the matches:
Gbw Rock match was epic (3rd round I believe). My opponent is taken away at the begining of the match and receives a game loss for a deck list mistake. It takes 12 mintues to sort out what went wrong and we start the second game. We both flood a bit and trade hand and permanents on board pretty heavily. Beiing at 8 mana and ~10 life I topdeck demonic tutor with my only hand card being a batterskull I way planning on deploying that turn (keeping up 3 mana). I change plans to tutor and cast Bargain instead. Of course my opponent follows up with spike weaver and after three turns of fogging has a Genesis which threatens to lock me out of the game (recurring weaver to deny life gain via my batterskull). After trying to avoid the genesis by equipping my Shriekmaw I get blown out by removal on the shriekmaw. I draw a bunch of card dropping to one life finally killing the genesis and attacking with an equipped phyrexian ghoul which consumes most of my spare creatures boosting life back into a healthy double digit numbers. I draw Lark on second main phase and decide to gamble for a way to find Karmic guide before the end of turn (Saffi is already in my yard). I find guide, hardcast Lark, EoT discard Guide due to handsize and can reanimate my complete graveyard on oppponents end of draw step nuking his hand with tideholllow sculler and and his board with a skinrender. Awesome game that took close to 40 minutes (while neither of us played slow).
My first match loss happened in round 5. First game my opponent is back on the baord and in mana troubles when he uses eladamri's call to get a card placed face down in front of his lands (I also often do this when I find a good target but want to check for alternatives). After he finishes shuffling I cut his deck and he picks up the face down card, adds it to his hand does a quick shuffle of the hand; collapses the hand into a single pile and proceeds to cast Noble Hierarch. I call a judge stating that my opponent just failed to reveal a card but that I believe he simply forgot.
After the game loss I lose the next two games quickly, of course (both games quick fauna shaman plus planeswalkers that I could not handle). Karma is a harsh mistress for sure... . Nevertheless I would call a judge again. While I am pretty sure my opponent did not cheat there are also prizes to be won and at the end of day it is everybodies job to play by the rules. We were both looking for a rematch in the semis after both making the top 8 but Patrick Richter had other plans ;-)
In round six my opponent is playing a blue white deck with pretty bad cards but a great deck plan. Sadly I do not have to mulligan even a single card in the two games we play and I can combo off safely both times before he can deal lethal damage. In the second game my very first draw is the protean hulk. Because my hand is pretty much all in on the combo I proceed to EoT discard Hulk aiming to find and abuse Living death with the demonic in hand. The plan luckily worked out as well.
Round 7 I ID reasoning that most guys will not draw and that I have a chance bigger than 50% by far of making it and in case of missing the cut receiving a better price than with a loss.
In the quarterfinals I have a solid hand game 1 and keep drawing answers in the very few first turns which annoys me because I want discard to protect tutors instead realizing I am playingf against a deck with counterspells and beats. After the scavenging ooze shows up I am much happier. We proceed to fight over it for a couple of turns and I can combo off quickly enough. On the second game I have a nutty hand (see round 6) once more but both decks decide to not deliver lands with both of us stuck at 2 lands. Eventhough Tabris finds his lands quicker my hand is full of awesome cards. With lethal on board I have to combo on this turn and find a route to victory
My board:
3 lands (2green, 1 g/w white mana)
1 Pyhrexian tower (1 colorless or sacc dude for two Black)
1 Llanowar Elf (not sick)
My hand:
Thoughtseize
Academy Rector
Carrion feeder
Eladamri's call
Tabris has no open mana but you know he is playing Daze, Force and Mental Missstep. What is the most likely route to victory?
After finishing my quarter finals I head over to the table where my semis opponent is determined. Their gaem is still at 0-0. At some point I can witness how Patrick is playing top there. He looks at upkeep, tanking preety hard on which card to draw (that is okay I guess) then reaches a decision and draws a card to proceed to tank again. I do not know what kind of new information Patrick had to deal with but I firmly belive that upon reaching a decision he should know all his next plays until he recieves new information by a response from his opponent or because he can see new cards. By the time I finished the semifinals I had outlasted table judge number 3 watching me and my opponents play...
Semi finals:
I open a pretty bad hand game 1 and the spoiler mulligan does not really fix it. I lose g1 after some attrition due to the Cared advantage on Patrick's side (Fact or fiction plus Jace). In the second game I spoil again but am low an lands. I keep a hand with strong cards but am light on mana (only forest + twilight mire diabling a T2 Sculler). I start with forest go while patrick plays mox D, Fetch for dual, play noble H. + Elf. I draw a fetchland and land Sylvan library; Patrick has a birtinhg pod plus activation T2 getting a SfM and a SoFaI in the process. I snatch the Sword with the Sculler but never find time to deal with the pod.
Quote from: ChristophO on 15-08-2011, 07:01:11 PMWith lethal on board I have to combo on this turn and find a route to victory
My board:
3 lands (2green, 1 g/w white mana)
1 Pyhrexian tower (1 colorless or sacc dude for two Black)
1 Llanowar Elf (not sick)
My hand:
Thoughtseize
Academy Rector
Carrion feeder
Eladamri's call
Tabris has no open mana but you know he is playing Daze, Force and Mental Missstep. What is the most likely route to victory?
Lovely situation. :)
Haven't been playing the deck in ages, so I needed to give it a serious thought. Play Rector leaving the Tower up, sac Rector with it and find Pattern for the elf. Play Thoughtseize to make sure coast is clear and play Feeder. You lose to Force, or if they have both Misstep and Daze (misstep seize, daze the feeder or vice versa), otherwise you win.
To make the situation even more difficult. I had a Top and could have hidden the force beneath the top 3 cards or the mental mistep. :D
The Garruk and Thrun intrigue me. Why keep Thrun if you already have Stoneforge as a beatdown backup plan? It's not like the deck lacks tutors to find it. Is Garruk just moar mana or a token factory most of the time?
I feel the deck has quite a few impact cards that have a high mana cost (Bargain, conscription, Titans if you play them). You can also play much safer against non black decks and slowroll enabler + combo or tutor + combo if you have more avaiable mana. When games went bad it was usually at least one of two problems:
a) My opponent had a stronger board and made CA via Planeswalkers/blue Card draw
b) I was lacking mana
I feel Garruk can help in both regards and I also hope that Innistrad will finally bring some strong black planeswalkers.
Spent the better part of the evening getting my ass handed to me by a hyperaggressive, highly redundant RUG list. Dudes, dudes, more dudes, Moons, some counters, tons of burn and a Cradle. And a Pod. It just seems that he's about as fast or perhaps faster than I am, and can just do the fishy stuff - drop dudes, keep disruption up until he wins. At least one positive thing about it:
It's a deck with a very defined plan, not a random pile of goodstuff. That makes me very happy, even if I get mercilessly slaughtered by it.
Any changes, lines of play I should try to make things more even?
What I'm running atm:
Changes from last time:
Lotus Cobra=>Overgrown Battlement (more stable)
Equipment: SoFaI/SoFaF => SoLaS/Batterskull (just generally better in this deck)
Bargain=>Thrun (more general applications)
Ravenous Baloth => Obstinate Baloth (tons of games, have eaten Hulk once or so, cursed the need to sack it for life many times)
Manabase improvements (Razorverge Thicket, Savannah)
Heresy:
Top=>Boreal Druid
I'm just usually not terribly happy to draw top, almost always happy to draw manadork.
Great chance of me being wrong here, but will test to see what happens.
Primeval Rector:
//Creatures:
Birds of Paradise
Noble Hierarch
Elves of Deep Shadow
Arbor Elf
Fyndhorn Elves
Llanowar Elves
Boreal Druid
Viscera Seer
Carrion Feeder
Bloodthrone Vampire
Saffi Eriksdotter
Fauna Shaman
Wall of Roots
Overgrown Battlement
Sakura-Tribe Elder
Viridian Emissary
Sylvan Ranger
Wall of Blossoms
Qasali Pridemage
Stoneforge Mystic
Tidehollow Sculler
Mesmeric Fiend
Knight of the Reliquary
Phyrexian Ghoul
Yavimaya Elder
Eternal Witness
Kitchen Finks
Academy Rector
Obstinate Baloth
Skinrender
Fleshwrither
Dimir House Guard
Phyrexian Metamorph
Thrun, the Last Troll
Reveillark
Karmic Guide
Shriekmaw
Yosei, the Morning Star
Primeval Titan
Grave Titan
Protean Hulk
Terastodon
//Other permanents:
Sword of Light and Shadow
Recurring Nightmare
Oblivion Ring
Birthing Pod
Pattern of Rebirth
Batterskull
Eldrazi Conscription
//Other spells:
Inquisition of Kozilek
Duress
Thoughtseize
Worldly Tutor
Sylvan Tutor
Crop Rotation
Eladamri's Call
Regrowth
Demonic Tutor
Diabolic Intent
Vindicate
Maelstrom Pulse
Beast Within
Natural Order
Primal Command
Living Death
Green Sun's Zenith
Chord of Calling
//Lands:
5 Forest
4 Plains
3 Swamp
Arid Mesa
Wooded Foothills
Marsh Flats
Polluted Delta
Misty Rainforest
Flooded Strand
Windswept Heath
Verdant Catacombs
Savannah
Temple Garden
Overgrown Tomb
Godless Shrine
Razorverge Thicket
Llanowar Wastes
Sunpetal Grove
Twilight Mire
Wooded Bastion
Horizon Canopy
Dryad Arbor
Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
Wasteland
Volrath's Stronghold
Phyrexian Tower
Some time has passed since I posted my current version of hulk combo. I have spent several evenings improving the deck and hours testing it. Many nice thought were posted here in this forum. I would like to present my thoughts about this deck.
Game plan
All versions of deck that were posted here has hulk combo as a main win con. Some packed also Eldrazi Conscription to maximalise use of Academy Rector. Should there be alternative game plan or is combo alone enough?
I think, there should be backup plan, what the deck is trying to acomplish. This deck has lots of creatures, so it comes into mind, that beat down should be the next possibility. The problem is that the creature quality of creatures this deck want to play is not in P/T, but in what the creatures do - ETB effents, utility abilities. I can't imagine, that I would be able to race dedicated agro or midrange agro deck or various agro controls with the creatures that are in this deck. Problem is, that this deck needs lots of slots to make the combo even possible and most of these creatures are not supposed to clash swords in combat phase. Adding several creatures, that improve this agro plan would take essential slots for creatures, that enable the combo and mainly few creatures like Stoneforge, Thrun, Grave titan would not save us, when oponent can play those creatures too, and take more advantage of them. That is why I think, that however Stoneforge is phenomenal, it is not what this deck needs or even wants.
This deck has(or at least can have) lot of creature control cards, some versions had more or less disruptive cards, but is not enought to call this plan. The deck cann't usually play rock style - trading one for one so long as the opponent is out of juice. We again run into comboparts, that are some sort of blanks for this plan.
So what should best suit this deck? I think, that it is recursion and card advantage made by most of creatures. This should exhaust opponent or cripple him enought to make comboing off possible. It is essential to make combo essential cards usable even without rest of combo.
In this perpective I would present my current decklist. It lacks some "autoincludes" that almost all deckbuilders included. I would discuss the card choices under the decklist.
// Lands
1 [SH] Volrath's Stronghold
1 [US] Phyrexian Tower
1 [WWK] Khalni Garden
1 [TE] Wasteland
1 [PLC] Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
1 [FUT] Dryad Arbor
1 [LG] Karakas
1 [US] Gaea's Cradle
1 [A] Bayou
1 [A] Scrubland
1 [A] Savannah
1 [RAV] Overgrown Tomb
1 [GP] Godless Shrine
1 [RAV] Temple Garden
1 [ON] Windswept Heath
1 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
1 [ON] Wooded Foothills
1 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [ZEN] Arid Mesa
1 [ZEN] Marsh Flats
1 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
1 [EVE] Twilight Mire
1 [EVE] Fetid Heath
1 [SHM] Wooded Bastion
1 [TE] Reflecting Pool
1 [FUT] Horizon Canopy
3 [IA] Snow-Covered Forest
2 [IA] Snow-Covered Swamp
1 [IA] Snow-Covered Plains
// Mana - 12
1 [ISD] Avacyn's Pilgrim
1 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
1 [A] Llanowar Elves
1 [IA] Fyndhorn Elves
1 [RAV] Elves of Deep Shadow
1 [WWK] Arbor Elf
1 [RAV] Birds of Paradise
1 [CHK] Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 [M11] Sylvan Ranger
1 [MI] Wall of Roots
1 [ROE] Overgrown Battlement
1 [TSP] Yavimaya Dryad
//Combo
1 [DIS] Protean Hulk
1 [UD] Academy Rector
1 [MOR] Reveillark
1 [TSP] Saffi Eriksdotter
1 [UL] Karmic Guide
1 [ROE] Eldrazi Conscription
1 [WWK] Terastodon
//Sacc outlets - 5
1 [M11] Viscera Seer
1 [SC] Carrion Feeder
1 [M11] Bloodthrone Vampire
1 [US] Phyrexian Ghoul
1 [RAV] Dimir House Guard
//Discard -7
1 [FNM] Tidehollow Sculler
1 [NPH] Entomber Exarch
1 [ROE] Inquisition of Kozilek
1 [M10] Duress
1 [LRW] Thoughtseize
1 [AT] Hymn to Tourach
1 [AP] Gerrard's Verdict
//Defense
1 [SH] Wall of Blossoms
1 [ROE] Wall of Omens
1 [SHM] Kitchen Finks
1 [M11] Obstinate Baloth
//Removal
1 [LRW] Shriekmaw
1 [UL] Bone Shredder
1 [SHM] Murderous Redcap
1 [SOM] Skinrender
1 [AT] Swords to Plowshares
1 [NPH] Dismember
1 [AP] Vindicate
1 [ARB] Maelstrom Pulse
1 [HOP] Oblivion Ring
1 [7E] Wrath of God / Damnation is color-wiser
1 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
1 [TSP] Harmonic Sliver
// Tutors
1 [M11] Fauna Shaman
1 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary
1 [UL] Crop Rotation
1 [MI] Worldly Tutor
1 [MBS] Green Sun's Zenith
1 [PS] Diabolic Intent
1 [R] Demonic Tutor
1 [PS] Eladamri's Call
1 [MOR] Idyllic Tutor
1 [UD] Pattern of Rebirth
1 [RAV] Chord of Calling
1 [PT] Natural Order
1 [LRW] Primal Command
1 [NPH] Birthing Pod
//Graveyard shenigans 5+1(entomber)
1 [EX] Recurring Nightmare
1 [A] Animate Dead
1 [FD] Eternal Witness
1 [R] Regrowth
1 [M11] Sun Titan
1 [AP] Phyrexian Arena
1 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
Deck has 103 cards. I still feel, there is room for one more anticontrol creature card. I would go with Graveborn Muse(deck has even some zombies in it) / Acidic Slime (utilize Reveillark, Recuring Nightmare and Birthing Pod.
Cards i lack:
Yosei, the Morning Star - nice six drop, comboes only with Recuring nightmare, but one must pay 6 mana for it and then something can happen. Not synegistic enough.
Yavimaya Elder - Zenithable creature, that brings CA. Casting Elder means, that next turn nothing happens. It realy does not speed's up the deck. Yavimania dryad speeds up, leaves body for Natural order od Diabolic Intent.
Lotus Cobra - too fragile and one must have enough lands to make this not death card. I dont expect this ever to attack.
Fleshwrither - Too slow again. Can tutor only Rector. And "tutor" for rector that can be stopped by any removal is generally not that great.
Yawgmoth's Bargain - again, sort of uncastable until it might be too late. We should be enough sattisfied with Recuring Nightmare. Still I can imagine to run this enchantment instead of Conscription, but still i find Conscription better.
Tainted Pact - unreliable and one must fetch first combopart in the way.
Mesmeric Fiend - Sculler should be just enough.
Grim discovery - sort of mana intensive to get full advantage of it. It does not do much early game and later on we should do better than this.
Living Death - This deck is not reanimation. We can hardly get some uncastable creatures to grave to revive them this way. Its wrath factor for opponent is not that usable too. Not to die agains agro we must kill their dudes to slow them down, and I realy do not want to kill half their army just to see the second half come to life.
Ravenous Baloth : OK, it eats hulk and then? It sucks as lifegainer, sucks with recuring nightmare.
Garruk Wildspeaker: even when most of the deck are creatures, we do not usually want do chump with any of them to save him. He can be quite riddiculous against Winter Orb or with Cradle + makes our uncasteables little more castable, But it is 4cc that would not help most of the deck.
The main requirement for creatures to be put in deck is that they have some cool ETB effect + they work great with Recuring nightmare, Reveillark or Sun Titan. repeatable card advantage through creatures should break the neck to opponent.
Take a while and look at other decklist and inspect how many creatures are in these decklists, that realy matter for recursion? Also the Birthing Pod chain is not that great there. Not always one can go for Rector or Reveillark (that would do not much either).
Honorable creatures mentions: I include just those, that are NOT commonly played
Harmonic Sliver, Bone shredder, Yavimania Dryad, Ravenous Redcap, Entomber exarch, (?Acidic Slime), Sun Titan, Animate Dead. Avoiding some not that great cards and with adding there one can get realy crazy interactions.
Birthing Pod can go wild with this package, so can Recuring nightmare or Reveillark...
Thank you for reading my comment. I hope you liked it. I am looking forward responses.
Thanks for that, it's much appreciated！
Thought I'd post my new list, since the last post is from a bot and the last actual list is from last year.
// Deck file for Magic Workstation
// Lands
1 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Arid Mesa
1 Marsh Flats
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Windswept Heath
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Temple Garden
2 Plains
2 Swamp
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Phyrexian Tower
5 Forest
1 Llanowar Wastes
1 Godless Shrine
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Selesnya Sanctuary
1 Golgari Rot Farm
1 Orzhov Basilica
1 Stirring Wildwood
// Creatures
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Carrion Feeder
1 Bloodthrone Vampire
1 Reveillark
1 Yavimaya Elder
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Academy Rector
1 Wall of Omens
1 Wall of Blossoms
1 Eternal Witness
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Noble Hierarch
1 Fyndhorn Elves
1 Llanowar Elves
1 Elves of Deep Shadow
1 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Shriekmaw
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Arbor Elf
1 Yosei, the Morning Star
1 Fauna Shaman
1 Viscera Seer
1 Protean Hulk
1 Grave Titan
1 Melira, Sylvok Outcast
1 Murderous Redcap
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Primeval Titan
1 Mentor of the Meek
1 Avacyn's Pilgrim
1 Acidic Slime
1 Karmic Guide
1 Vampire Aristocrat
1 Nantuko Husk
1 Phyrexian Ghoul
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Skinrender
1 Viridian Emissary
1 Loxodon Hierarch
1 Sylvan Ranger
1 Tidehollow Sculler
1 Saffi Eriksdotter
1 Deranged Hermit
// Spells
1 Natural Order
1 Thoughtseize
1 Duress
1 Pattern of Rebirth
1 Eladamri's Call
1 Recurring Nightmare
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Vindicate
1 Living Death
1 Diabolic Intent
1 Chord of Calling
1 Primal Command
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Worldly Tutor
1 Phyrexian Arena
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Birthing Pod
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Sylvan Library
1 Dismember
That is close to the exact list I played at KuukkaCon, which featured ~38 players. I went 4-1-1 picking up a loss from not being able to play a the first round as I was in another tournament at the same time. Deck felt pretty good and most of my wins came from opponents being somewhat unaware of the potential the deck offers. I might have won those matches anyway, but it sure made it easier. I won a Naya aggro that was flooded in two games, BW aggro, Dragon Highlander (a friend of mine, deck has some serious OOMPH, but is really lacking against combo) and Bant. I drew against Good Stuff.
But yeah, back to the list itself, it is good to combo again and as you can see, I added way more sacoutlets and trimmed some beater dorks. This is to combat decks like Bant and good stuff as your best weapon against them is synergy and combo. This is the reason I for example dropped Stoneforge as she didn't give too much of an edge against them and if they ever draw their own, theirs were way better. You cannot match them in pure card power anyway, so it's better to play your strengths. The previous approach is better if you expect slow control or fast aggro. The decline of UB control allowed me to finally get rid of the Bargain, which was pretty weak most of the time.
The list has both comboes (Melira/Persist + Reveillark/Guide/Hulk/Saffi), mostly because the latter consist mainly of cards you want to play anyway (Saffi isn't that great, but she has unlimited synergy). Melira is there just because you can just randomly draw those pieces and they are really nice with Pod. Optimal list probably drops one of these in favor for another, but I don't have many cards I would want to play in the deck atm, so there are room for both at the time.
Land base has Ravnica Karoos and they have been excellent. I am probably alone in this matter, but they have been in most of my recently made decks and I've been loving them. Having more mana without the need to play non-business cards is pure greatness. Wasteland sucks, but whatever. One card out of 100 and not every one plays it, so I'll gladly take those odds. Moons aren't even that bad as you can still play them (they come into play tapped) and you don't need to return a land. I've actually let a Magus of the Moon live for a turn before killing it just to cheat some karoos into play. I don't play Karakas because I need two plains to tutor up with Sakura, Elder or Ranger and I really don't want more white producing lands in the deck.
Some additions from the new sets: Garruk Relentless is in and I've been happy with it. It kills my guys with both sides and flipping it by killing my own Rector is pretty nice. Dismember replaced StoP because it can kill your Rector. Scavenging Ooze is not a synergy piece, but my god is it amazing. Liliana of the Veil kills your own guys (and I guess my opponent's too) and can actually cripple an opponent in some games. Phyrexian Metamorph is probably good enough, but I haven't cast him too much yet. An effect like that is pretty nice to have at the ready since the deck is loaded with tutors anyway. Mentor of the Meek has been good, but might be unneeded. It's nice to have some card draw when you aren't doing anything else, but you really can't rely on him to survive and pull you through from every situation.
I haven't had a chance to try out the new Mikaeus, but I will soon. Been preoccupied with another formats lately. Let me know if you have questions or suggestions.
Thank you for the continued updates. Your list seems very optimized to me. I'm seriously considering assembling it :)
Hi,
I would also post my accual decklist. I changed several cards, adapted some ideas from tabris. And I would like also comment Tiggupiru's decklist.
First I would like to point out, that in our comunity, there is no spoil mulligen. We still use old rule mulligen(nearly all player decline to accept new rule). So that is why my decklist has more lands then it is ussual here(35 instead of 33). You can feel free to cut two and recieve deck for new mulligen rule. This two lands stretch deck size little bit, but there is no harm done :-)
The plan of the play stayed the same, like i described in my last post. I still want more sick synergy then nice beatdown backup plan. Current decklist realy lack high cost spells, that go over 5 mana. Threre is just Hulk, Conscription and Sun titan (which is only one, that is supposed to get paid mana for). Significant difference is that deck lacks second green bomb (Terastrodon or Primeval). Terastrodon was kind of unwanted baby. One could catch control player with pants down T3/T4 smashing all theirs lands, but the same could do control to us with resolved Bribery. I lost too much games because of Bribery for Terastrodon, or it was just blank for me, that I can hardcast when it is too late plus Terrastrodon is saddly very medicore against agro. Casting terrastrodon T5-> has usually not great, since opponent can still operate with remaining lands.
Primeval titan is different story. Cheating him into play usually gets us more mana for next turn, but do we need that? Recent decklist realy lack utility lands(like bojuka, Karakas even Wasteland). So let't think, what can Primeval titan brings us? More mana? We could just tutor Hulk instead, and kill the guy. When we cut more uncastables, we can get more consistent draws and not sit with hands full of six mana spells when opponent is threating us with Winter orb or Armagedon.
Sun vs Grave Titan depends on other deck choices. Sun titan is more than solid if your deck supports it. I covered Yosei in my last post, I still dont like him. Last word on uncastables - with new Liliana we have the option to dump unwanted combopiece to graveyard and then reanimate it. In this matter I think, that playing Animate Dead is not optional. Less uncastables means less ramp spell or land search and thus some place for new good stuff.
I didn't tested bounce lands from Ravnica yet, but they are quite tricky. In the last turnament, I got tripple wasted and once vindicated, to stay on two lands ( + I faced fully loaded Opposition in one game). With the wasted land beeing karoo, I think I would lost the game at that moment. I still like utility lands, that are in the deck, are very solid and makes Knight of the Reliquary such a valuable creature to have. The best land in deck is no doubt Gaea's Cradle, with the flood of creatures this deck has, it makes commboing off so much easier.
I am testing now two new cards - Night's Whisper (which I abaronded very long time ago) and Harmonize. They performed extremely well and even after getting all my creatures killed, I was not doomed just for topdecking and could refill my hands with those draw spells. Night whisper compared to Phyrexian arena is something, like we get the cards NOW instead two turns from now. Arena is better in long run, but can be destroyed. So if you are happy casting Arena T2/T3, you should be happy casting Night's Whisper as well.
My current decklist:
// Lands
1 [SH] Volrath's Stronghold
1 [US] Phyrexian Tower
1 [WWK] Khalni Garden
1 [TE] Wasteland
1 [PLC] Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
1 [FUT] Dryad Arbor
1 [LG] Karakas
1 [US] Gaea's Cradle
1 [A] Bayou
1 [A] Scrubland
1 [A] Savannah
1 [RAV] Overgrown Tomb
1 [GP] Godless Shrine
1 [RAV] Temple Garden
1 [ON] Windswept Heath
1 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
1 [ON] Wooded Foothills
1 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [ZEN] Arid Mesa
1 [ZEN] Marsh Flats
1 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
1 [EVE] Twilight Mire
1 [SHM] Wooded Bastion
1 [TE] Reflecting Pool
1 [FUT] Horizon Canopy
1 [AN] City of Brass
3 [IA] Snow-Covered Forest
2 [IA] Snow-Covered Swamp
1 [IA] Snow-Covered Plains
// Acceleration
1 [ISD] Avacyn's Pilgrim
1 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
1 [A] Llanowar Elves
1 [IA] Fyndhorn Elves
1 [RAV] Elves of Deep Shadow
1 [WWK] Arbor Elf
1 [RAV] Birds of Paradise
1 [CHK] Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 [M11] Sylvan Ranger
1 [MI] Wall of Roots
//Combo
1 [DIS] Protean Hulk
1 [UD] Academy Rector
1 [MOR] Reveillark
1 [TSP] Saffi Eriksdotter
1 [UL] Karmic Guide
1 [ROE] Eldrazi Conscription
//Sac. outlets
1 [M11] Viscera Seer
1 [SC] Carrion Feeder
1 [M11] Bloodthrone Vampire
1 [US] Phyrexian Ghoul
1 [RAV] Dimir House Guard
//Discard
1 [ROE] Inquisition of Kozilek
1 [M10] Duress
1 [LRW] Thoughtseize
1 [AT] Hymn to Tourach
1 [FNM] Tidehollow Sculler
1 [NPH] Entomber Exarch
//Defense
1 [SH] Wall of Blossoms
1 [ROE] Wall of Omens
1 [SHM] Kitchen Finks
1 [M11] Obstinate Baloth
//Removal
1 [LRW] Shriekmaw
1 [UL] Bone Shredder
1 [SHM] Murderous Redcap
1 [SOM] Skinrender
1 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
1 [TSP] Harmonic Sliver
1 [AT] Swords to Plowshares
1 [AP] Vindicate
1 [ARB] Maelstrom Pulse
1 [HOP] Oblivion Ring
1 [ISD] Liliana of the Veil
1 [PLC] Damnation
1 [MBS] Go for the Throat
//Tutor
1 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary
1 [M11] Fauna Shaman
1 [UL] Crop Rotation
1 [MI] Worldly Tutor
1 [MBS] Green Sun's Zenith
1 [PS] Diabolic Intent
1 [R] Demonic Tutor
1 [PS] Eladamri's Call
1 [UD] Pattern of Rebirth
1 [RAV] Chord of Calling
1 [PT] Natural Order
1 [LRW] Primal Command
1 [NPH] Birthing Pod
//Graveyard shenanigan
1 [FD] Eternal Witness
1 [M11] Sun Titan
1 [EX] Recurring Nightmare
1 [A] Animate Dead
1 [R] Regrowth
//Misc.
1 [NPH] Phyrexian Metamorph
1 [CMD] Scavenging Ooze
// Card advantage
1 [AP] Phyrexian Arena
1 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
1 [PLC] Harmonize
1 [FD] Night's Whisper
Last words are salutes to Phyrexian Metamorph. When this was printed, almost everyone was crazy about this card and it apeared in all sorts of deck. I was very reserved to this, but in this deck, it just pure awesomeness. It solves so much issues this deck might have.
* Bribery to Hulk? - thanks I copy that.
* Saffy removed? It copies Karmic Guide as it comes, and comboes with Reveillark.
* We run so many ETB effect creatures, that having another copy of almost any creature is nice option.
* It greately improves comboing when we can't go infinite for some reason.
Tiggupiru: I like very much your idea with Deranged Hermit. Pure sickness :-)
I wish to everyone good games, especially with Hulk combo.
Yea i would also want to know what's reasoning to not run Sun titan / Gaea's gradle in tiggupiru's list? Sun titan is hitting several targets, even fetchlands usually if there arent else, going crazy with liliana seems acceptable. Gradle can produce zero mana in some cases (after wrath) but other times it should be good. Combined with deranged hermit? Sweet. I also think that mikaeus 2.0 should be in list, it has synergy with lots of cards in list already and comboes easily with persist guys + sac-outlet. Is sylvan tutor too slow to use vs. worldly Tutor? Also couple more cards what i would want to know your opinion, Thrun and Garruk, primal hunter. Are both unneeded or why you don't wanna play them? Thrun might not be good enought since we don't run any Swords but how about Garruk? Is that triple-g too much?
Hi,
I did not tested mikaeus 2.0 yet, but synergistic aspect is so obvious, that there is no need to point out that more :-) The question is does it helps to the deck goal? Is it needed(ie not overkill like Terrastrodon)? Can we get him consistently do the game to gain advantage of him? I think if someone plays Grave titan, he can easily switch to Mikaeus. These are but just my impressions. I may be wrong.
Thrun can realy help against blue based decks since he can't be countered. Still I feel him like blank. This deck is either under severe pressure (then thrun is very medicorish) or we have enough tools to combo out. I realy dislike the moment, when I have to switch to beatdown plan, because hulk usually do not generate so much pressure and we have blanks for agro plan. So playing more creatures, that are good just for this plan and are completely useless for combo is something I try to avoid.
I have negative experience with planeswalkers here. Since there is not that many cards, that can protect PW effetively. And I surely do not want to chump just to save PW. Primal Hunter is sort of interesting because of the draw clause (pity, we dont have many beaters in deck, so it will draw like 2 at most without creating token first). In this matter it is quite slow. I think, Mikaeus would deserve slot more than Garruk. I want to try hermit first, since he offers defense/offense at the same time + comboes out with nightmare and reveillark very well.
Triple green on the Garruk is not a problem, but the fact that he costs five is. He is also not very good deal in most of the decks and is very much like a win-more card. If you have a titan or something out and they don't kill those in response to this, you are going to get an attack with your titan and that is really good. If you are behind on the board, Primal Hunter is pretty weak. In essence, i really don't like the card and it doesn't even produce any synergy, so it's an easy decision for me not to run it.
Sylvan Tutor I forgot. I didn't play it anywhere for a full year or so, mainly because how poorly it did against control. Since that is no longer that big of an issue, it can come back in. I've been thinking about cutting Diabolic Intent because it's just so bad when you are losing and not that insane unless you can play the tutored card immediately. I am going to swap those two up.
Deranged Hermit isn't insane or much of a good card. I know it seems like it has sick synergies, but it really doesn't provide enough power to be considered in the big leagues. Before the tournament I noticed that I was missing a card, so I put that in as a card that can give some trouble to slow control and has infinitely better synergies than Thrun. I was full aware he would not be optimal going into the tournament, but it was the best I could come up with in such a short notice. Thrun is pretty useless without the swords anyway, so Hermit might be decent as a meta call. All I know is, I will be cutting the Hermit as soon as I find some cool card to replace that.
Sun Titan is not on the list, because the targets for it aren't especially good. Random mana dorks and fetchlands are not ideal targets by any means and it's a six drop, which I wanted to have less of anyway. It's also quite possible to run out of targets completely if you don't have a fetchland at your disposal. He is somewhat synergistic, but the price tag is just too much. Grave Titan is kinda unneeded also, so I am going to give the Mike a run in that slot, but will not go back to Grave Father even if Mikaeus is proven to be something I don't want to play in this deck.
Cradle is another win-more card. All in all, it's decent and I might put it back in at some point, but I did pick up many losses where a basic forest would have been more than adequate mana source all the while Gaea mocked my face from her cradle. It sucks when you need to paris because the only green source you have in your opening hand is not going to produce mana. Nevertheless, it's nothing sort of amazing when the right pieces fall into place and it's a thing of beauty in mirror (and against similar decks). Horrible when facing red aggro, so adjust your opinion according to the expected meta.
Primeval is very good. Having an access to Volrath's Stronghold is simply great. Primeval + Stronghold is also a combo in itself and will give you endless amount of gas and mana to use the stronghold and play dudes on the same turn. Phyrexian Tower is also a nice one to nab. Even though the rest of the lands aren't as good, simply having infinite mana is going to make a number of things easier.
http://deckstats.net/deck-1137936-88bf84cb0997a53a624c2d803d52dae2-en.html
What I am running at the moment. For what it's worth, Thrun has been amazing for me thus far. Will have to see if he's worth it now that Stoneforge and friends are out though.
Since birthing pod did get banhammer, what would replace that slot? I'm thinking to add Diabolic Intent back. What's your opinion should life from the loam get slot here too? It works nice with Horizon canopy and other utility lands but since we aren't running wasteland should we now add that for extra value?
Intent is fine, that's why it's been in the deck for so long. I'll probably add it back in too until I can think of a better card.
Loam is something this deck doesn't really want. Durdling with lands is too time consuming whereas just trying to find a tutor or Rector/NO/Pattern is way more efficient than slowly gaining minor advantages. If you would make this deck more Loam-centric, then maybe, but I don't see much benefit from that.
Birthing Pod is great loss for this deck. Secondly unbanned loam propably means, that people will be more concerned about opponents graveyards.
There are several quick thoughts that came across my mind. Why not abuse all the recently unbanned stuff and make it broken. I mean stick together Hulk engine, Hermit Druid, Burried allive, Dread Return?, Victimize, Necromancy, Animate Dead, Loam engine with Ravens Crime and maybee it would do well. I have not decklist yet, but I feel some real potential here.
Recent changes:
- Sunt Titan, Stoneforge package, Crop Rotation
+ Yosei, Nantuko Husk, Vampire Aristocrat, Sylvan Library, Obstinate Baloth
Also testing Conjurer's Closet because the sweet, sweet free value is tempting. Haven't managed to draw it thus far sadly.
Insanity check, but:
(http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=238141&type=card)
This is what I'm considering for the Yosei slot. Is green, flies and completely clogs the board vs. aggressive decks. Has hilarious interactions with things like Recurring Nightmare and Reveillark. I think both Yosei and Grave Titan are pretty borderline in the deck now that Melira combo exists, but I like the ability to do an emergency boardclog quite a lot. This does that while doing gamewinning things with Nightmare and can be Ordered out. Not sure if it's good enough but could prove handy.
Why do you run Yosei in the first place (and try now to replace it with a 7drop) ?
Quote from: Tabris on 17-06-2012, 05:25:07 PM
Why do you run Yosei in the first place (and try now to replace it with a 7drop) ?
I think Yosei is in because he plans to win. As for what comes to the 7-drop, I guess he is just so accustomed at winning games with it that the whole 'winning' notion has lost all meaning to him (the infamous anti-Charlie Sheen complex) and the only way he can still feel something is to 'not win'.
I see.
He reminded me of me at his age, I mean when I was his age he reminded me of my age. He reminded me of my age at his age. When I was his age he was reminded of me.
http://deckstats.net/deck-1665069-307ebaeb915d2ef94f5e20f6f0f3087a.html
thats my pattern rector right now, any advice on how to improve it (yeah i know i need duals) would be greatly appreciated. thanks in advance
4 Swamp
3 Plains
3 Forest
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Marsh Flats
1 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Arid Mesa
1 Krosan Verge
1 Murmuring Bosk
1 Temple Garden
1 Godless Shrine
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Woodland Cemetery
1 Sunpetal Grove
1 Isolated Chapel
1 Caves of Koilos
1 Llanowar Wastes
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Tainted Field
1 City of Brass
1 Reflecting Pool
1 Wasteland
1 Dust Bowl
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Llanowar Elves
1 Fyndhorn Elves
1 Avacyn's Pilgrim
1 Elves of Deep Shadow
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Noble Hierarch
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Wall of Roots
1 Wall of Blossoms
1 Elvish Visionary
1 Lotus Cobra
1 Fauna Shaman
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Eternal Witness
1 Acidic Slime
1 Protean Hulk
1 Worldly Tutor
1 Beast Within
1 Chord of Calling
1 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Natural Order
1 Rancor
1 Pattern of Rebirth
1 Garruk Wildspeaker
1 Viscera Seer
1 Carrion Feeder
1 Mesmeric Fiend
1 Bloodthrone Vampire
1 Phyrexian Ghoul
1 Krovikan Horror
1 Dimir House Guard
1 Fleshwrither
1 Body Snatcher
1 Shriekmaw
1 Duress
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Thoughtseize
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Hymn to Tourach
1 Diabolic Intent
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Necromancy
1 Recurring Nightmare
1 Phyrexian Arena
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Wall of Omens
1 Leonin Relic-Warder
1 Fiend Hunter
1 Academy Rector
1 Ranger of Eos
1 Reveillark
1 Karmic Guide
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Tidehollow Sculler
1 Saffi Eriksdotter
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Eladamri's Call
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Vindicate
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Æther Vial
I would cut the WW cards that can easily be cut and replaced by superior options to improve the mana. Karmic Guide obv. has to stay.
Leonin Relic Warder -> Harmonic Sliver
Fiend Hunter -> Skinrender
I would also have another look at the mana base. I believe you are playing too many lands that do not produce green. I would also think about playing mana fixing guys in the deck (Wood elves/Borderland Ranger/Solemn Simulacrum) to help with the mana a bit. I would also play Thragtusk or Obstinate Baloth or even both depending on the Meta and also a Stoneforge Mystic package including Batterskull and Mortarpod and maybe even one of the Swords.
I would also cut the following cards because they are not powerful enough imo:
Fleshwrither
Body Snatcher
Krovikan Horror
Rancor (powerful but not in according to the decks plan)
Elvish Visionary
Quote from: ChristophO on 03-12-2012, 11:57:09 PM
I would cut the WW cards that can easily be cut and replaced by superior options to improve the mana. Karmic Guide obv. has to stay.
Not necessarily. Body Snatcher also works as a combo piece. Card is inferior to Karmic Guide, but it's better for the mana. I don't know which one is correct.
Quote from: ChristophO on 03-12-2012, 11:57:09 PMI would also think about playing mana fixing guys in the deck (Wood elves/Borderland Ranger/Solemn Simulacrum) to help with the mana a bit. I would also play Thragtusk or Obstinate Baloth or even both depending on the Meta
Thragtusk is too good to pass up. Natural Order into Thragtusk is a perfectly valid play against aggro. Centaur Healer is also better than the four mana life gain dudes. One mana is easily worth the -1/-1 and one less life. Depending of the meta, Healer might not be necessary.
I also find the mana dorks to be pretty much vital to the deck. Sylvan Ranger, Civic Waywinder, Yavimaya Dryad and the cards ChritophO mentioned are all viable options. Sylvan Ranger is probably the best, personal preferences define the other slots. I do think you want at least three of them.
Body Snatcher is better for a Melira style kill, though? I mean, it isn't loopable like Karmic Guide is.
Here's what I am playing atm:
//Creatures:
Carrion Feeder
Viscera Seer
Birds of Paradise
Noble Hierarch
Llanowar Elves
Fyndhorn Elves
Arbor Elf
Avacyn's Pilgrim
Elves of Deep Shadow
Sakura-Tribe Elder
Viridian Emissary
Wall of Roots
Sylvan Ranger
Bloodthrone Vampire
Saffi Eriksdotter
Melira, Sylvok Outcast
Stoneforge Mystic
Qasali Pridemage
Tidehollow Sculler
Wall of Blossoms
Fauna Shaman
Scavenging Ooze
Phyrexian Ghoul
Knight of the Reliquary
Yavimaya Dryad
Kitchen Finks
Eternal Witness
Bone Shredder
Academy Rector
Dimir House Guard
Thrun, the Last Troll
Loxodon Hierarch
Phyrexian Metamorph
Reveillark
Karmic Guide
Thragtusk
Shriekmaw
Primeval Titan
Wurmcoil Engine
Protean Hulk
//Other spells:
Chord of Calling
Green Sun's Zenith
Worldly Tutor
Sylvan Tutor
Enlightened Tutor
Crop Rotation
Sensei's Divining Top
Inquisition of Kozilek
Duress
Thoughtseize
Sylvan Library
Eladamri's Call
Demonic Tutor
Diabolic Intent
Go for the Throat
Recurring Nightmare
Phyrexian Arena
Oblivion Ring
Maelstrom Pulse
Vindicate
Sword of Feast and Famine
Sword of Fire and Ice
Natural Order
Pattern of Rebirth
Faith's Fetters
Garruk Relentless
Garruk, Primal Hunter
Primal Command
Batterskull
//Lands:
2 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
Savannah
Scrubland
Temple Garden
Godless Shrine
Overgrown Tomb
Dryad Arbor
Verdant Catacombs
Windswept Heath
Misty Rainforest
Wooded Foothills
Marsh Flats
Polluted Delta
Arid Mesa
Flooded Strand
Sunpetal Grove
Woodland Cemetery
Isolated Chapel
Razorverge Thicket
Stirring Wildwood
Treetop Village
Volrath's Stronghold
Phyrexian Tower
Homeward Path
Bojuka Bog
Gaea's Cradle
Horizon Canopy
Wasteland
Maze of Ith
A very grind-oriented list, pretty much. Titan+towers+homeward path is amazing against control, as is the general dispersal of power brought by Stoneforge+Thrun. Both Garruks are great, though Relentless especially is just insane. Been thinking about a version that cuts some of the combo fluff (Hulk, Saffi, Melira, perhaps Lark and KGuide) and just put in Conscription and more beaters/Planeswalkers. Leaves the toolboxy things and the option to pull the trigger with Conscription or Invulnerable Titan, but gives the deck some more board position-oriented slots to use. Might be bad, might not be, I guess testing will tell ^^
Some testing agmes later, the Hulk-less version wins well enough, but is goddamn boring. Gotta be able to pull the trigger, otherwise it just isn't proper. Trying out random funchantments, currently Debtors' Knell again. The general idea is to havebackup plan after backup plan, and to be able to win on resource-starved boards. This generally means bomby non-Pattern enchantments for Rector. Stoneforge & The Swords continues to impress as the best board presence band in the biz, pulling off awesome jigs like "Turning the Bird into a Killer" and other such alltime greats.