So today Wotc announced that Jace 2.0 and Stoneforge Mystic are banned from T2.
While nothing changed for jace 2.0, batterskull gave a nice boost to stoneforge. But is it broken in highlander, too?
I personally think that turn 2 stoneforge is the best drop in the current meta but i dont have enough experience yet (with batterskull) to judge over a ban right now.
What do you guys think about these cards in highlander recently?
It depends on the situation. A turn 2 Demonic Tutor against a well known deck can be devastating. One could argue that the Stoneforge Mystic is more broken due to not being depending as much on the opponent's deck (and eventual knowledge about said deck) compared to the potential silver bullets the Demonic Tutor would give access to. My personal opinion is that Stoneforge Mystic isn't too broken (albeit very powerful) in the highlander format. I don't play it though because my current deck is of a more controlish nature.
EDIT: Stoneforge Mystic allows a surprsingly amount of versatility combined with card quality (and advantage), that is almost unprecedented save for Demonic Tutor. I think that the effectiveness/power of Stoneforge Mystic rivals even cards like Gifts Ungiven.
Quote from: Kristian on 20-06-2011, 06:40:18 PM
My personal opinion is that Stoneforge Mystic isn't too broken (albeit very powerful) in the highlander format.
+1
I would like to note that though mystic isn't broken it doesn't mean that it shouldn't be banned.
My opinion is that playing second turn mystic generates too much advantage and thus is banworthy. Let's compare mystic with jitte since it's already banned. Both cards come turn 2. Jitte requires a creature, but when you attack with it, it's is unfair against aggro decks if unremoved. While mystic is unfair against aggro decks (mystic->batterskull is harder to deal with and much more cost efficient) AND control decks, since it provides tempo and card advantage. And even if mystic is removed you still get to keep batterskull to play later.
So my point is: if jitte is banned because it provides too much advantage, why shouldn't mystic be banned, since it usually provides more advantage than jitte.
P.S. Food for thought: in legacy finding batterskull with mystic is often better play than finding jitte.
People have started playing Sylvan Tutor just to get more T2 Stoneforges. I just added Stoneforge to my Aluren deck. Her addition makes every deck just better, and our format is becoming more and more centered around her.
sephirons argument is pretty valid. stoneforge is more powerful than jitte.
No it´s not. Please dont confuse powerful with overpowerd. Jitte is much stronger and you still need one removal for the card shes getting. Its like with any other strong card. You need your answer and you need the answer as quick as possible (Pernicious Deed, Treachery, Bribery, Titan, Oath etc.)In this case if your opponent is getting a Batterskull on turn 2 "just" kill the mystic and your opponent got a "dead" card until turn 5.
Quote from: Tabris on 21-06-2011, 01:18:07 PM
No it´s not. Please dont confuse powerful with overpowerd. Jitte is much stronger and you still need one removal for the card shes getting. Its like with any other strong card. You need your answer and you need the answer as quick as possible (Pernicious Deed, Treachery, Bribery, Titan, Oath etc.)In this case if your opponent is getting a Batterskull on turn 2 "just" kill the mystic and your opponent got a "dead" card until turn 5.
Sorry but I didn't quite get your argument. I mean both require fast removal. And in mystic's case you still have batterskull left, and if opponent killed batterskull (which could be hard with 3 mana bounce) you still have mystic which can cheat random swords or could be ounced/blinked. Plus while jitte changes any guy you have into threat, it's uselesss unless you have guys. While mytic is threat on it's own as well as changing any of your guys into threats (since you can fetch sword as well). So doesn't that actually make mystic better than jitte?
Tutoring for Stoneforge Mystic is a factor that I hadn't considered. Still, there is a few in the format that can help you ensure a turn 2 mystic which is worldly tutor? (And potentially Summoner's Pact with crazy mana acceleration)
Quote from: Nastaboi on 21-06-2011, 10:16:50 AM
People have started playing Sylvan Tutor just to get more T2 Stoneforges. I just added Stoneforge to my Aluren deck. Her addition makes every deck just better, and our format is becoming more and more centered around her.
This is absoluty what i think, too.
So_not said some time ago that he most frequently gets Stoneforge with Demonic, followed by Gifts in second.
Stoneforge Mystic is very powerful. I don't see her as banworthy however. She is especially good against decks that lack early spot removal, 4C-DarkBant-Control or UG for example.
Packing more cheap removal seems to be a wise choice these days anyways.
I remember a match from the last GP where GoblinPiledriver tried to equip his dudes with his Sword of Feast and Famine while I was holding Go for the Throat, Incinerate and Swords to Plowshares! ;) I "timewalked" him 3 turns in a row and won easily from there.
Accomadate your deck and you'll do fine!
1.Ban Divining Top
2.Gief Sideboard
3.? ? ? ?
4.Profit
???
???
Quote from: W0lf on 22-06-2011, 08:56:13 AM
1.Ban Divining Top
2.Gief Sideboard and reduce decksize to 60
3.? ? ? ?
4.Profit
fixed
Stoneforge is very strong indeed, but I don't think it needs to be banned. One cant really compare it to Jitte.
1) The removal for Jitte is much more special: Artifact removal is less often played than common creature removal for a toughness 2 guy. Every deck plays creature removal. Red decks for example play burn to immediately kill Stoneforge whereas they just get wrecked by Jitte.
2) Stoneforge generates exactly +1 card advantage, wheres Jitte can kill many creatures.
3) Stoneforge has summoning sickness, Jitte is played and active immediately on turn 4, often deciding the game in the aggro mirror.
//offtopic
Reducing decksize to 60 would change format. Decks would be more powerful (especially combo) and therefore the games probably would be shorter. This means 60min per round would result less often in a draw. Even though, 100 card is just what makes the character of the format. I don't think I like that idea.
Quote from: Helle on 22-06-2011, 06:25:59 PM
1) The removal for Jitte is much more special: Artifact removal is less often played than common creature removal for a toughness 2 guy. Every deck plays creature removal. Red decks for example play burn to immediately kill Stoneforge whereas they just get wrecked by Jitte.
With Stoneforge fetching an equipment, you'll still need an artifact removat to deal with the equipment.
Quote2) Stoneforge generates exactly +1 card advantage, wheres Jitte can kill many creatures.
Actually when you fetch Batterskull you get +2 ca (equipment+token), and more cards every time you bounce and replay it. But when evaluating whether a card is good or not, you should look further form the concept of card advantage. Stoneforge gives tempo and tutoring, both of which have been key considerations when deciding bans or restrictions. I have heard no one complaining on Tidings ever. Lesser but still important abilities are getting around counters and sorcery speed removal and being a creature thus easily reusable (blinking, Sun Titan, reanimation etc.).
I won yesterday a game where my opponent had Stoneforge and not much else. I resolved in that game Demonic, Mana Drain, Natural Order, Gifts and Maelstrom Pulse among others, and it still didn't feel easy. So you can win against it if you happen to have four other unfair cards and play them well.
Quote from: Nastaboi on 23-06-2011, 08:04:15 AM
QQQQQ Stoneforge OP
delicious tears, i like ;D
Besides that, please stop making a fool of yourself you´re talking utter bullshit.
Thank you
I think this one isnt' broken per si but it bordelines it. It gives you CA, pressure on the table. It's cheap, splashble (if it were WW instead of 1W we porbably wouldnt be having this discussion...).
Is also tutors a card which is difficult to deal: equipments! Even if you don't play with skull you still have multiple swords, including SoFI.
The problem runs deeper than this single card: cards like pridemage are also problematic, because WOTC has decided to put everything on a stick meaning you really haven't to choose between steelshaper's gift and a creature or a naturalize and a creature.
They aren't broken, but they are annoying and specially with stoneforge games are starting to become centered around them. But there was once a time we games were centered around playing gifts (unbanned) and LFTL (banned). So i think we should wait a little more and see if the meta reacts to it.
Quote from: W0lf on 24-06-2011, 08:39:48 AM
Quote from: Nastaboi on 23-06-2011, 08:04:15 AM
QQQQQ Stoneforge OP
delicious tears, i like ;D
Besides that, please stop making a fool of yourself you´re talking utter bullshit.
Thank you
Nice comment. Can you at least try to bring up arguments? Why is he talking bullshit? I had several times equal situations.
@ Mythrandir
I think you might be right. But gifts hit the table on turn 4. Thats a crucial difference. That's why i also think that jace 2.0 is not a problem for the format, but mighty 2 drops are more scary than turn 4 drops.
Quote from: Mythrandir on 24-06-2011, 01:11:54 PM
I think this one isnt' broken per si but it bordelines it. It gives you CA, pressure on the table. It's cheap, splashble (if it were WW instead of 1W we porbably wouldnt be having this discussion...).
Is also tutors a card which is difficult to deal: equipments! Even if you don't play with skull you still have multiple swords, including SoFI.
The problem runs deeper than this single card: cards like pridemage are also problematic, because WOTC has decided to put everything on a stick meaning you really haven't to choose between steelshaper's gift and a creature or a naturalize and a creature.
They aren't broken, but they are annoying and specially with stoneforge games are starting to become centered around them. But there was once a time we games were centered around playing gifts (unbanned) and LFTL (banned). So i think we should wait a little more and see if the meta reacts to it.
While that is true, I don't see problem with these creatures most of the time, since with most of the cheap ones it's still 1v1 the scary creatures are the ones that are cheap and provide CA, and wizards haven't printed a lot of those (like dark confidant, dark confidant, witness, lavamancer and of those only mystic provides immediate card advantage and only mystic got banned in standart).
While mystic isn't autowin, but the games where he comes t2 are a lot more boring, since they become more on how to deal with opponents batterskull than how to kill opponent. So my argument on banning mystic isn't solely based on powerlevel, but also on the "fun" factor.
P.S. On the other hand with some other bannings/unbannings metagame could be shaken enough so that mystic wouldn't be as bad (for example banning gifts, unbanning loam -> more maze of iths (or at least more consistent) -> swords/batterskull become weaker).
By unbanning LFTL you go from games being centered around stoneforge and start having games centered around LFTL (at least in more controlish matchups).
Not saying we should ban him... just saying he's a cheap little annoying bastard! :P
Quote from: Mythrandir on 24-06-2011, 05:55:09 PM
By unbanning LFTL you go from games being centered around stoneforge and start having games centered around LFTL (at least in more controlish matchups).
Not saying we should ban him... just saying he's a cheap little annoying bastard! :P
That may be so, but my point is that as it is Highlander is becoming stagnant and centered too much around mystic. I do not want to argue about banning mystic or not, ultimately it's councils decision, all I'm saying is that where I'm from everybody is sick of mystic and don't want to see it.
P.s. Currently controllish matchups end up in the victory of one who resolves gifts first anyway so it's not that different and loam can be answered by gravehate(which admittedly most decks don't play currently because there isn't anything relevant to hate). Without LoA and gifts beside it loam isn't as broken as it was before it's banning. But then again that's only my view and if you have tested it extensively then I won't argue. I just want format which would be fun to play. ;D
Before you consider banning SFM, please read the explenation for the ban.
It got banned because CawBlade dominated the meta like no other deck before except Ravager Affinity. This dominance caused a decrease of player numbers from PTQs to FNMs.
So far I can´t see this trend for Highlander tournaments, at least in Berlin. Actually I notice a different trend here, we have a very steady player base with increasing numbers. Maybe the increase was actually caused by the dominance of CB in standard...
With all the spells on legs I believe it´s time to ban the instant creature tutors, I can´t find any reason why Mystical, Vampiric and Enlighted should be banned but Worldly and Eladarim´s Call should be legal as they can get you an answer to nearly everything nowadays, an uncounterable, hexproof regenerating thread, a silverbullet or combo piece.
Or just unban the other tutors for fairness reasons...
Cheers
Maggot
Quote from: Maggot on 27-06-2011, 10:29:45 AM
With all the spells on legs I believe it´s time to ban the instant creature tutors, I can´t find any reason why Mystical, Vampiric and Enlighted should be banned but Worldly and Eladarim´s Call should be legal as they can get you an answer to nearly everything nowadays, an uncounterable, hexproof regenerating thread, a silverbullet or combo piece.
Or just unban the other tutors for fairness reasons...
Cheers
Maggot
THIS is SO true. There is nothing to add. Maybe that would alrdy "balance" stoneforge out.
agreed
i dont know about eladamris call, but i also feel that on the play first turn wordly tutor for thrun is pretty brutal against control. there is just nothing you can do about it, if you dont have force. and that there are not many answers to thrun is obvious. creatures get better, creature tutors get better too. the argument is valid.
edit: you can misstep it. but that card is only borderline playable imo.
Cards that beat Thrun and are widely played in control decks include but are not limited to: Wrath, Damnation, Stoneforge Mystic (and its targets), Baneslayer, Exalted, titans, Moat, Humility, Natural Order, Bribery, Meloku, Masticore, Wurmcoil Engine... and all tutors that find them.
I much rather ban the cards that are the problem, rather than ban all the tutors and then proceed to feel robbed every time my opponent draws the offending card.
What comes to the actual banning: I am unsure if Mystic should be banned right now. Most players seem to either favor for it, or they admit it's a really good card, but not quite good enough to ban. It's a card that keeps getting better and better every time they print an equipment, so I am pretty sure banning is inevitable. It's one really good equipment away from being way too good. I've also begun to splash white for many of my decks solely because of this card, so I really understand if it gets a hit from the hammer.
Quote from: Nastaboi on 27-06-2011, 10:48:11 PM
Cards that beat Thrun and are widely played in control decks include but are not limited to: Wrath, Damnation, Stoneforge Mystic (and its targets), Baneslayer, Exalted, titans, Moat, Humility, Natural Order, Bribery, Meloku, Masticore, Wurmcoil Engine... and all tutors that find them.
agreed.. you can tutor him up on turn 1, he only appears at turn 4, so, you can deal with it.
Banning tutors isn't the option IMO. I wonder how the council feels about banning a card on "repetitive game play", a bit like LFTL.
thanks for listing all the answers to thrun, but i think people know those answers. nothing new there. thrun is not the problem, stoneforge isnt.
i wasnt saying there is nothing you can do about thrun. of course there is. but you cant do anything about having to deal with him when the tutor him up first or second turn. thrun and stoneforge are just seen every freakin game. with those cheap tutors, you deal with those two annoyingly often, because they are the number one targets by a mile. against aggro you get stoneforge, against control you get stoneforge or thrun, yay! not. and when you always tutor for the same creatures, that feels dull. its fine that some creatures are way better than others, but having those tutors make them omnipresent, they make games feel a little repetitive. my five cents.
bottom line: there is a power creep seen in creatures lately, which make creature tutors stronger and stronger and variance and variety suffer abit. you deal with stoneforge or thrun too often considering its a freakin 100 card format. i am not saying ban all instant speed creature tutors, but in the long run, with more ridiculous creatures being printed they are going to be too powerful. same thing with gifts ungiven, i always felt like that card is unfair.
I can see your point about tutors, but right now only even remotely unfair creature that costs <6 is Mystic. Thrun is pretty bad and I have like one deck where I'd ever consider putting him in. If you can't deal with Thrun, you either have insane other matchups and just bite the bullet, or should consider retooling your deck. I cheer everytime when my opponent fetches Thrun with Wordly - actually I cheer every time they fetch anything that is not Mystic (or Sun Titan that brings it back from grave).
Yet again, you got off topic. The problem is not dealing with thrun specifically. Its about repetitive gameplay. But fyi, I was talking about control only when talking about thrun. And thrun is everything but bad against control. If you think Thrun is bad you either have a not too complex meta or you should consider retooling your deck..meaning putting thrun in it ;).
Quote from: tonytahiti on 28-06-2011, 11:55:08 AM
Yet again, you got off topic. The problem is not dealing with thrun specifically. Its about repetitive gameplay. But fyi, I was talking about control only when talking about thrun. And thrun is everything but bad against control. If you think Thrun is bad you either have a not too complex meta or you should consider retooling your deck..meaning putting thrun in it ;).
Nobody is saying thrun is bad, it's just that thrun has it's answers, costs 4 mana and overall isn't as frightening as mystic. I myself have played against thrun quite a few times, but he isn't that big of a problem if you can chump/kill/race him, while against mystic he chooses best equipment and your only hope you have fast answer, because racing killing/racing isn't option if he got batterskull and if you have chump blockers relevant sword is fetched an you're in trouble (again not saying thrun isn't powerful just not as powerful as mystic, because In most situations mystic is just better).
The real danger for this format in my eyes is if cards like stoneforge mystic hit the table to much. Same goes around for Jace 2.0.
Imagine you could put 4 jace 2.0 in your deck, it would be by far not a bad choice. If you could play 4 times stoneforge mystic, you would do it.
Tutor's are kinda nothing else in our format than replacements for the strongest cards in your deck. I could imagine that some of you guys would agree with me, that tutoring stoneforge in the first turns is actually the best target. If you play demonic tutor, you'll probally get something like Jace 2.0 or Gifts ungiven (or now stoneforge), because these cards are not bad in general and kinda are the strongest non-specfic cards in the format (i mean if you don't run a strategy involving a combo). And its okay to have "stronger" cards. I think that might be a reason why alot of ppl dont know if stoneforge mystic is to powerful or not for a banhammer. I think its okay to have these cards, as long as they stay at one or 2 slots in your deck. Everything over 3 slots is to much, and futhermore, the tutor's are to cheap. Or any1 would consider playing Diabolic tutor in a non combo deck? There are not much lists running this card, because it all comes down to the costs of the tutor and the target. Stoneforge mystical has to many avaible tutor's and they are to cheap. Stoneforge by itself is to cheap designed, but thats offtopic. Or any1 running Stonehewer Giant?
So if you enable for example mystical tutor, i think it would hit mostly something like force of will or manadrain, because u always wanna have these cards on your hand. And mystical tutor is banned..
I don't understand the difference between these tutor's anymore. Why are creature tutor's so less dangerous than mystical or enlightned tutor? 3 Years ago, i would totally agree to the banlist. But now, with all the "perfect" creatures out there, i think its really time to rethink this, because tutor's choice is really restricted to like 3 different cards. But the same goes of for every ohter banned tutor.
Its not good if this format can run the most dangerous cards to constantly. Imagine every game the possibilty of a: mana drain turn 2-mystical tutor, Winter orb/oath turn 2 - enlightned tutor, stoneforge mystic turn 2 - worldy tutor...not?. Thats the reason for me to ban the instant 1 mana tutors from mirage.
Quote from: LasH on 28-06-2011, 05:08:09 PMI don't understand the difference between these tutor's anymore. Why are creature tutor's so less dangerous than mystical or enlightned tutor? 3 Years ago, i would totally agree to the banlist. But now, with all the "perfect" creatures out there, i think its really time to rethink this, because tutor's choice is really restricted to like 3 different cards. But the same goes of for every ohter banned tutor.
There are no difference in my opinion.
Quote from: Tiggupiru on 27-06-2011, 10:56:50 PM
It's a card that keeps getting better and better every time they print an equipment, so I am pretty sure banning is inevitable.
The same is true for Gifts Ungiven.
Gifts keeps getting better and better every time they print
ANYTHING.
Still it`s not getting banned, so even considering a Stoneforge ban is completly retarded as long as Gifts Ungiven stays in the Format.
Quote from: W0lf on 28-06-2011, 06:33:16 PM
Quote from: Tiggupiru on 27-06-2011, 10:56:50 PM
It's a card that keeps getting better and better every time they print an equipment, so I am pretty sure banning is inevitable.
The same is true for Gifts Ungiven.
Gifts keeps getting better and better every time they print ANYTHING.
Still it`s not getting banned, so even considering a Stoneforge ban is completly retarded as long as Gifts Ungiven stays in the Format.
Gifts Ungiven is not as powerful as Stoneforge Mystic in early to mid game. Please don't belittle other's opinion by calling their thoughts on the subject retarded.
I don't think Mystical into Mana Drain is even remotely sick. Once you know opponent has it, Mana Drain becomes significantly worse. Obviously still good, but it's still a reactive card. Same goes for Winter Orb, which is like the worst play ever on turn two anyway.
2nd-turn Stoneforge is much, much more scarier. It's also the only card you mentioned that gives back the -1CA from the topdeck tutors.
I think either Wordly should be banned or Mystical and Elighted should be unbanned.
Either one is fine for me.
If Call and Vampiric are on the same level as the three cards mentioned above, I really can´t say atm but my feeling sais that if Worldly was banned Call should also be banned. If Mystical and Enlighted are unbanned I don´t think that Vampiric can be unbanned.
Cheers
Maggot
Quote from: Tiggupiru on 28-06-2011, 08:09:26 PM
I don't think Mystical into Mana Drain is even remotely sick. Once you know opponent has it, Mana Drain becomes significantly worse. Obviously still good, but it's still a reactive card. Same goes for Winter Orb, which is like the worst play ever on turn two anyway.
2nd-turn Stoneforge is much, much more scarier. It's also the only card you mentioned that gives back the -1CA from the topdeck tutors.
Yes, i agree with you in all points. Winter orb was a very bad example. I just named that card because i think to remember, that this card was a reason to ban enlightened tutor.
And i agree with maggot aswell ;-)
Quote from: Maggot on 28-06-2011, 08:47:03 PM
I think either Wordly should be banned or Mystical and Elighted should be unbanned.
Either one is fine for me.
If Call and Vampiric are on the same level as the three cards mentioned above, I really can´t say atm but my feeling sais that if Worldly was banned Call should also be banned. If Mystical and Enlighted are unbanned I don´t think that Vampiric can be unbanned.
Cheers
Maggot
I agree for the most part of this statement, because my feeling is that mystical and enlightened tutors aren't as bad anymore as when they were initially banned (one of the main problems for enlightened tutor, it got survival). So It most likely wouldn't break anything unbanning them.
My biggest problems with the banlist is that with all the new cards some banned cards aren't as strong or don't need to be banned:
-Jitte: It's strong but with abudance of artifact removal and arguably stronger equipments, is it really banworthy? Consider this mystc, sofi and batterskull. Is jitte thatmuch stronger than the others? I think mystic is around the same powerlevel of bokeness as jitte is, so i don't see point of one being banned and other not (except that you dont want to keep both in format at the same time, but then again batterskull kinda breaks things).
-Enlightened tutor (And mystical to lesser extent): Nothing broken happens even if you unban them, because 1 more tutor for combo-decks doesn't change much and since enlioghtened tutor can't get survival and as people pointed out winter orb is nowadays just bad, so it's not as bad anymore. On the other side worldly tutor is getting much stronger than either of the 2 since guys are nowdays answers to anything.
-Entomb: again with no loam in the format this isn't as bad as it used to be. It only supports combo and reanimate strategies, which are currently too weak so it wont harm people to help them a bit (maybe then we will finally see some relic of progenituses, because I haven't seen any dedicated graveyard hate cards in the decks since loam got banned ;) )
-Life from the Loam (replacing gifts and maybe intuition): with no LoA it's not as bad as it was before banning and without gifts it won't become war of attrition on who gets bored first. Loam is mostly relevant in control/midrange mirrors which are dominated by gifts anyway and it kinda helps against mystic (More probability of maze of ith sticking around).
I am pointing those out in hopes that at least some changes would be made to the banlist, so it would liven up the format. Cheers :)
Quote from: tonytahiti on 28-06-2011, 01:24:00 AM
bottom line: there is a power creep seen in creatures lately, which make creature tutors stronger and stronger and variance and variety suffer abit. you deal with stoneforge or thrun too often considering its a freakin 100 card format. i am not saying ban all instant speed creature tutors, but in the long run, with more ridiculous creatures being printed they are going to be too powerful. same thing with gifts ungiven, i always felt like that card is unfair.
Also, spoils mulligan affect the number of times you see stoneforge t2, so...
Gitfs, after LFTL being banned gets you completely different things in different decks and in different situations. Unless you're playing combo, your gifts will probably vary from game to game.
i mean i am absolutely fine with mystical tutor and enlightened tutor being unbanned but i dont think thats a good idea when gifts ungiven is legal. a one mana tutor for the most powerful spell in the game doesnt seem healthy.
+enlightened
+mystical
-gifts
@ Sepiron
I also think that some cards on the banned list need to be reconsidered, imo a banned list should always be as short as possible.
But I disagree with you on the following card evaluations:
Quote from: Sephiron on 28-06-2011, 10:06:44 PM
-Jitte: It's strong but with abudance of artifact removal and arguably stronger equipments, is it really banworthy? Consider this mystc, sofi and batterskull. Is jitte thatmuch stronger than the others? I think mystic is around the same powerlevel of bokeness as jitte is, so i don't see point of one being banned and other not (except that you dont want to keep both in format at the same time, but then again batterskull kinda breaks things).
Jitte is more powerfull than SoFI because the ability triggers anytime the creature deals combat damage not only when the creature deals combat damage to a player. It also stacks up counters, wich can be used at instant speed not only when the damage is dealt. SoFI cant kill a potential blocker before combat or save you from a deadly blow.
SoFI doesn´t synergize with Proliferate ;D ;D ;D
Without SFM to cheat Batterskull in it will affect the game later and it doesn´t give the controller as many options as Jitte.
If Jitte was in the format I would vote for a ban of SFM.
Quote from: Sephiron on 28-06-2011, 10:06:44 PM
-Life from the Loam (replacing gifts and maybe intuition): with no LoA it's not as bad as it was before banning and without gifts it won't become war of attrition on who gets bored first. Loam is mostly relevant in control/midrange mirrors which are dominated by gifts anyway and it kinda helps against mystic (More probability of maze of ith sticking around).
Replacing Gifts and Intuition with Loam is a two for one trade, and therefore bad ;)
Or we could ban all the cycle lands that nobody plays without Loam and allow Loam, Gifts and Intuition all together :o
@ Tonytahiti
That´s a valid point, I think it needs testing.
Cheerio
Maggot
Quote from: Maggot on 29-06-2011, 10:58:32 AM
Jitte is more powerfull than SoFI because the ability triggers anytime the creature deals combat damage not only when the creature deals combat damage to a player. It also stacks up counters, wich can be used at instant speed not only when the damage is dealt. SoFI cant kill a potential blocker before combat or save you from a deadly blow.
SoFI doesn´t synergize with Proliferate ;D ;D ;D
Without SFM to cheat Batterskull in it will affect the game later and it doesn´t give the controller as many options as Jitte.
If Jitte was in the format I would vote for a ban of SFM.
I didn't mean that sofi is better than jitte, what i mean is that sofi's powerlevel isn't that far from jitte and in current fomat with mystic batterskull and sofi legal, you wouldn't even fetch jitte as often (if you need life or against aggro in general batterskull is usually better and against control sofi is usually better) so what i'm saying is that jitte is just a strong equipment. It woouldn't change anything if it were unbanned now. That's why I don't agree with jitte staying banned and mystic/batterskull/sofi unbanned it just feels wrong since they are of a similar powerlevel.
I agree that banlist should be as short as possible, but then again gifts is a card that should be banned anyway, so it's more like trading loam for intuition (Former enables more deck stratiegies and is more interesting card than the latter).
Quote from: Maggot on 29-06-2011, 10:58:32 AMOr we could ban all the cycle lands that nobody plays without Loam and allow Loam, Gifts and Intuition all together :o
I would, but then again, I like making weird decks :P
EDIT:
On the note of Gifts Ungiven. It is a powerful card, but I find it alot less played compared to SFM even though it's more splashable. I don't really see Gifts Ungiven as problematic, it allows for alot of wild plays, but I've rarely seen it lock the game into a specific track unlike SFM.
I think intuition for Wasteland, Bazaar of Baghdad, Life from the Loam will even with out cycle lands a nearly unbeatable move in Controlmirrors...
Quote from: peeler on 30-06-2011, 08:34:36 AM
I think intuition for Wasteland, Bazaar of Baghdad, Life from the Loam will even with out cycle lands a nearly unbeatable move in Controlmirrors...
Slow card advantage synergies are all around us. Saying things like that is like saying Thawing Glaciers is unbeatable in the mirror. Besides, that gives no board presence, which is pretty key in any MU. Even in control versus control MUs other has to play the beatdown role and that has to be the one with worse lategame (or they can both assume they have the late game locked up and the one who really has it will win). Resolving a Titan or a planeswalker puts a pretty fast clock and the offending card must be dealt with fast, or Loam + cycling is not going to help much.
And if you are playing Ux control with huge amount of counters, you are weak to graveyard recursion by default, so playing GY- hate should be a given anyway. It also makes Gifts less of a problem, which is pretty bonkers against slow control and must be taken in consideration as long as it stays in the format.
In short, there are synergies or combos that win eventually even without Loam + something, but they can easily be trumped even with a single card. And the wasteland-lock is a lock only if you let it be.
New banlist is out, little bit dissapointed that stoneforge or the tutor's did not even hit the watchlist.
Another season with lot and lots of stoneforges :'( .
I would love to see a statement from the council about this. Or does the current announcement already mean that they dont see any danger from this card?
So Stoneforge Mystic got the next ban from wizards - modern magic.
Top 8 Tournament in Germany
1. Jonny Al-Saidi (UG-AggroControl)
2. Sebastian Nötzel (UWGr-HotBant)
3. Jochen Korbel (5c Aggro)
4. Marcus Freier (4c Goodstuff no black)
5. Patrick Richter (4c Goodstuff no red)
6. Kai Thiemann (4c-Blood-Midrange)
7. Daniel Barenhoff (UW-Control)
8. Christoph Ohlrogge (WBG-PatternRector)
Possible 7/8 lists did run stoneforge (idk about bloodrange and UW-Control, i think all other list used him for sure). That doesnt mean alot, since you could also argument that all lists did run for example "sensei's divining top". Even if all 8 Lists did run a specific card, that doesnt mean the card is broken.
Even with that background in mind, i still think the card is bad for the format. I have more playtestings now, observed alot of games and this is my conclusion.
That top 8 shows the problem of the format, spells on legs. Every new one printed is an autoinclude. Imho there should be WAY more cards off the banlist to empower other decks. We would need to test extensively the fundamental turn for those decks, like tps, academy, stax and whatnot to not be 3 consistently versus weak disruption. I think turn 4 vs. weak disruption (= 1 discard or counter or similar) and 5 vs heavy is totally fine for a combo deck.
I'd probably start with Yawgwill, Wheel, Enlightened and Mystical and see what comes out. Control would also benefit of the latter to fetch eot hate/counters/draw. Wheel/YW would empower GY strategies which are kind of absent lately.
Good to be back.
Quote from: coldcrow on 17-08-2011, 02:30:07 PMThat top 8 shows the problem of the format, spells on legs. Every new one printed is an autoinclude.
Well, I don't like this trend at all either, but this is the direction the WotC is taking magic. I am not sure can we artificially fight that effectively.
Quote from: coldcrow on 17-08-2011, 02:30:07 PMImho there should be WAY more cards off the banlist to empower other decks. We would need to test extensively the fundamental turn for those decks, like tps, academy, stax and whatnot to not be 3 consistently versus weak disruption. I think turn 4 vs. weak disruption (= 1 discard or counter or similar) and 5 vs heavy is totally fine for a combo deck.
I'd probably start with Yawgwill, Wheel, Enlightened and Mystical and see what comes out. Control would also benefit of the latter to fetch eot hate/counters/draw. Wheel/YW would empower GY strategies which are kind of absent lately.
I do agree with this. Aside from the Tolarian Academy. It's just too powerful to unban, but it would be interesting six months, so I wouldn't mind too much :).
Anything else is perfectly reasonable. Yawgmoth's Will is not very much of a card outside of TPS or some such (and it's good in there only in the late stages of combo where everyone just want the solitaire be over already). Wheel of Fortune is just another draw7 and if Memory Jar didn't break anything (one of the better unbans ever, btw. good job council), neither will WoF.
I don´t think that Stoneforge Mystic is too powerful for this format but he limits the "best play" senario, making Highlander less diverse. If you draw a creature tutor you will most likely search for Stoneforge Mystic due to its low mana cost. Imo Stoneforge Mystic is the best 2CC creature in the format no more no less.
I would also like to see a more unbannings to strengthen Combo and Control decks to fight 3-5C aggro/goodstuff.
I fear that instant tutors are still too powerful to put combo cards together, but this is just my theoretical point of view.
As long as fast mana is untouched cards like Yawgmoth´s Will and Wheel of Fortune should not be too powerful, but I also think that the following cards should be inspected: Imperial Seal, Trinisphere and Entomb
Quote from: Tiggupiru on 17-08-2011, 02:47:13 PM
Quote from: coldcrow on 17-08-2011, 02:30:07 PMThat top 8 shows the problem of the format, spells on legs. Every new one printed is an autoinclude.
Well, I don't like this trend at all either, but this is the direction the WotC is taking magic. I am not sure can we artificially fight that effectively.
This!
There isn't much we can do, to fight this... You either go completely beserk on the ban/unban (which also doesn't make sense) or can't really pull this off, but i'm in favour of unbanning more controlissh/combo stuff
Quote from: coldcrow on 17-08-2011, 02:30:07 PM
That top 8 shows the problem of the format, spells on legs. Every new one printed is an autoinclude.
Am I just blind or isn`t there Combo, Control and Aggro in the Top 8?
Maybe I´m just too stupid to see the problem
In the new Top8 in the Highlander-Dm there is every archtype, but sometimes it`s hard to seperate them directly :
Swiss Place Name Deck Archtype
1. Jonny Al-Saidi (UG-AggroControl) : Aggro and/or Midrange
2. Sebastian Nötzel (UWGr-HotBant) : Midrange and/or Control
3. Jochen Korbel (5c Aggro) : Aggro
4. Marcus Freier (4c Goodstuff no black) : Midrange and/or Control
5. Patrick Richter (4c Goodstuff no red) : Control
6. Kai Thiemann (4c-Blood-Midrange) : Midrange
7. Daniel Barenhoff (UW-Control) : Control
8. Christoph Ohlrogge (WBG-PatternRector): Combo
That was the top 8 I was referring to, I see 7 aggro/control, one being "pure" aggro, 1 more controllish (u/w) and 1 aggro/combo. Seeing the problem? It is exactly as I wrote before, spells on legs. If you'd look at those lists you will see the same autoinclude creatures over and over. Sure you can steal some games with rogue decks, but the consistency of the usual aggro/control is just greater. So I'd like to see some cards unbanned.
I see it like MMD and coldcrow. After more thinking ppl are right that a ban of sfm would prolly not solve the problem. There are alrdy to many spells on legs out there.
And coldcrow is totally right. Im pretty sure all 4c decks run stfm or for example quasali pridemage. And even the combo deck in the top 8 can totally support these creatures. If u fail the combo, you still have a threat by beating/controlling the bord, that's why pattern rector is atm the most serious playble combo deck (lets wait and see for splinter twin). You dont manage to go in combo? Np you have a possible Plan B. I personally think the deck is a real good alternative to goodstuff atm.
As long as other decks dont get new stuff the meta top8 won't change much. Goodstuff decks run 80% the same cards and the top 8 shows that u can splash it different to be sucessfull, while the spells on legs dont change in any list.
I join the opinion to unban: Ywagmoth's will and wheel of fortune.
I'm not sure about "entomb" because of the combo engine with iona or woodfall primus, which could be to hard to deal with exspecially in turn 2. Monocolored decks alrdy dont play any role at all anymore (maybe WW, Sligh), but entomb iona reanimate is kinda game for any monocolored deck and would kill that archetype for tournaments in my opinion.
I still would reconsider the academy unban by banning candelabras and deserted temple, because these cards dont play any role at all atm, but academy would help other archetypes and its not more broken than other stuff without untap engine.
Trinisphere was stronger than academy in my testings i would not unban this card, because it can take away any play if it hits the bord early. Im simply no fan of turn 1-2 wins (Neither of workshop - sphere nor of entomb - iona- reanimate).
I also would ban wordly tutor or unban enlightened tutor. Enlightened tutor would favor control decks (humility, oath), it also would boost decks to get B2B. I think its to easy atm to play 4-5c without to fear punishments and the top 8 kinda reflect this.
Yeah, spells on legs combined with great multicolor manabases are kinda annoying. They devolve everything into a 3c+ midrange mess. A bit like (I think?) Shards-Zen Standard was. Same ol', same ol'. Even blue-white control was actually a green-black deck in disguise (Sweeps, Rampant Growths, a bit of card draw, tokens...). It was sad. The decks may have played differently, but you just can't get excited about Midrange.format. At least I can't.
The spells on legs stuff is nice, but I wish you had to have more focus. Right now, they're so good at beating down that you might as well play them in aggro. Wtf is that? I like the choice between beatdown critters, spells, and spells-on-legs with crap bodies that have more difficult costs (or sorcery speed restrictions) over their spell counterparts. That way you can have Storm, Zoo-style aggro and creature-based combo/midrange.
I kinda feel it might just come down to the manabase in addition to the creatures. In Pauper, there's quite a diversity of different approaches on the spell-beatdown spectrum, because the spells-on-legs are difficult to cast.
But outside of getting rid of fetches/duals, I do support unbanning noncreature-focused cards. Enlightened/Mystical sound like good ideas to me. Although Enlightened would just go into Bant Midrange to get Pod or something. And the black ones would get RecNightmare. *sigh* Still, could be worth a try.
/ramble