Hi,
here are my little pimped Planeswalker-Oath-Effectcreature-5c-Staxx:
Mana-Lands (34):
- All ten Duals
- Flooded Strand
- Misty Rainforest
- Polluted Delta
- Arid Mesa
- Scalding Tarn
- Marsh Flats
- Windswept Heat
- Exotic Orchard
- City of Brass
- Seat of the Synod
- Darksteel Ctadel
- Ancient Den
- Ancient Tomb
- Flagstones of Trokair
- City of Traitors
- Rishadan Port
- Volrath's Stronghold
- Glimmervoid
- Mishras Workshop
- Mishra's Factory
- Wasteland
- Dust Bowl
- Tendo-Icebridge
- Academy Ruins
Stall Lands (2):
- Tabernacle
- Maze of Ith
Creatures (7):
- Baneslayer Angel
- Braids
- Wurmcoil Engine
- Frost Titan
- Primeval Titan
- Sun titan
- Grave Titan
Mana Artifact (12):
- Coalition Relic
- Guilded Lotus
- Grim Monolith
- Mox Diamond
- Thran Dynamo
- Khalni-Gemme
- Darksteelsteel Ignot
- Azorius Signet
- Simic Signet
- Orzhov Signet
- Selesnya Signet
- Worn Powerstone
Other Artifacts (11)
- Tangle Wire
- Winter Orb
- Batterskull
- Smokestack
- Expedition Map
- Crucible of Worlds
- Memory Jar
- Static Orb
- Sensei's Divining Top
- Thopter Foundry
- Sword of the Meek
Instants (5):
- Gifts Ungiven
- Tainted Pact
- Fact or Fiction
- Mana Drain
- Thirst for Knowledge
Sorcery (13):
- Armageddon
- Revages of War
- Burning of Xinye
- Inferno
- Wildfire
- Devastation
- Vindicate
- Maelstrom Pulse
- Demonic Tutor
- Bribery
- Timetwister
- Wrath of God
- Damnation
Entchantment (9):
- Nether Void
- Moat
- Collective Restraint
- Awakening Zone
- Rising Waters
- Oblivion Ring
- Bitterblossom
- Oath of Druids
- Faith'S Fetters
Planeswalker (7):
- Ajani Vengeant
- Garruk Wildspeaker
- Karn Liberated
- Elspeth, Knight Errant
- Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
- Elspeth Tirel
- Tezzeret the Seeker
- Jace The Mind Sculptor
Its a Agro & Agro-Handle-Stacks-Variant, so its perfect for the Meta at the moment.
Reguards
Jan
I won't comment on the spells, but your manabase could use some tuning.
Quote
- All ten Duals
I doubt there would ever be a deck where I'd play all ten duals. Even when going five-color, some colors are used less than others. With full set of fetchlands, you'll find the duals you need. I'd cut at least Taiga as G and R are the least played colors.
Quote- Flooded Strand
- Misty Rainforest
- Polluted Delta
- Arid Mesa
- Scalding Tarn
- Marsh Flats
- Windswept Heat
On the contrary, I'd play all ten fetchlands in five-color. While each dual gives you two colors you might or might not need, each fetch gives you the color you need most and most often the color you need second to it.
Quote- City of Brass
- Glimmervoid
- Exotic Orchard
- Tendo-Icebridge
There are many multilands I'd consider playing before these. They include shock duals for most important color combinations and filter lands which provide great help paying for double casters. Worldwake manlands are also great, especially blue ones.
Quote- Seat of the Synod
- Darksteel Ctadel
- Ancient Den
As these exist only to boost Tezzerets, I strongly doubt their usefulness triumphs theis drawbacks. Leave one in if you desperately want to search for one with the Seeker.
Quote- Mishras Workshop
- Mishra's Factory
- Wasteland
- Dust Bowl
- Academy Ruins
- Ancient Tomb
- City of Traitors
- Rishadan Port
- Volrath's Stronghold
Most of them are good, but be careful on how many colourless lands you can afford. I'd propably cut Stronghold, Traitors and Factory for Tectonic Edge and coloured lands.
Quote- Flagstones of Trokair
This is okay. Other colored special lands to consider are Tolaria West and already mentioned WWK manlands.
I'd also add couple of basic lands just in case.
Quote- Coalition Relic
- Guilded Lotus
- Grim Monolith
- Mox Diamond
- Thran Dynamo
- Khalni-Gemme
- Darksteelsteel Ignot
- Azorius Signet
- Simic Signet
- Orzhov Signet
- Selesnya Signet
- Worn Powerstone
I'd replace Khalni Gem and Darksteel Ignot with 2cc stones. Mind Stone and Everflowing Chalice are great while colorless, and I like Mirrodin talismans more than signets.
Overall, I'd stick to either three main colors with slight splashes, or even two main colors with single splash. Pure five-color is doable, but you should still press some colors more than others.
Mh, i played the deck round about 200 times and in 25 tornaments. And i had never problems with my manabase :) some of the lands like the artifact ones i have in the list are there for a little switch in the deck for some other cards like mox opal etc. The kalni gemme is so beautyfull when you play it with armageddon etc and play like you had mana as normal etc.
Just a sidenote but playing 10 fetchlands and talismans leads to more lifeloss which often can influence the game. I lost plenty of games because i took these 2 shockdmg or -2 life due to talisman/fetch etc. While it is important to always have access to the right colors and it wins you games (or at least does not lose them for you) it is important to balance the lifeloss/mana ratio as well especially in this aggro orientated metagame.
I'd probably cut some double colored spells like Damnation + Braids to focus on UU RR and WW. But as you mentioned it works out for you the way it is so I guess never touch a running system or sth ; )
Quote from: Nastaboi on 21-06-2011, 07:57:43 PM
I'd replace Khalni Gem and Darksteel Ignot with 2cc stones. Mind Stone and Everflowing Chalice are great while colorless, and I like Mirrodin talismans more than signets.
Overall, I'd stick to either three main colors with slight splashes, or even two main colors with single splash. Pure five-color is doable, but you should still press some colors more than others.
While Khalni Gem really looks bad on paper, it turned out to be really great in stax. Not only colorfixing for all 2colored spells, futhermore pushing your strategy as silencesoul alrdy said (combination with landdestruction). I would not cut it atm, because there is no better colorfixing in that slot.
I kinda wanna discuss: Use burning of xinye as 2nd Wildfire or go for destructive force. I know wildfire2 does not kill baneslayer, but that can also be a problem, if the angel hits the wrong site of the table.
Btw is frost titan really better than inferno titan?
Quote from: LasH on 21-06-2011, 11:45:22 PM
Quote from: Nastaboi on 21-06-2011, 07:57:43 PM
I'd replace Khalni Gem and Darksteel Ignot with 2cc stones. Mind Stone and Everflowing Chalice are great while colorless, and I like Mirrodin talismans more than signets.
Overall, I'd stick to either three main colors with slight splashes, or even two main colors with single splash. Pure five-color is doable, but you should still press some colors more than others.
While Khalni Gem really looks bad on paper, it turned out to be really great in stax. Not only colorfixing for all 2colored spells, futhermore pushing your strategy as silencesoul alrdy said (combination with landdestruction). I would not cut it atm, because there is no better colorfixing in that slot.
I kinda wanna discuss: Use burning of xinye as 2nd Wildfire or go for destructive force. I know wildfire2 does not kill baneslayer, but that can also be a problem, if the angel hits the wrong site of the table.
Btw is frost titan really better than inferno titan?
Yeah, Frost Titan is such a great thing. In Combination with stall cards like Winter Orb, Tanglewire etc. and it blocks essential cards. Sometimes it frees the way throught oponents lines to hit him in his balls :-). Inferno Titan only makes 3 Damage WTF :-). I make some changes atm i think about Karn, Venser Planeswalker so all Titans with Venser i think GG, cut Braids and get 2 more Manaartifacts in, more Massremoval like Day of Judgement. Batterskull its a twist i think about adding Stoneforge & a Sword for all the Tokenmachines. But for now i love this deck how it is.
Hi Jan,
are you facing aggressive 4/5C aggro decks in your meta often? How is the deck performing against them? I'm curious, because I can see that apart from pulse, ring and vindicate, every your anti-aggro spell has CMC 4+. Isn't that far too slow for a fast aggro? In my meta, the aggro builds are often able to play gaddock, or to destroy at least one artifact/enchantment by turn four + to kill the possible blocker, so a single answer like moat does not stop nor slow them down at all.
Plus, do you happen to have any deck consistency problems? Knowing what random draws and little redundancy the staxx has, I see no deck manipulation possibilities for the early turns in your deck - isn't that a problem for you? (I included brainstorm, preordain and ponder into my staxx deck recently, just to improve my draws and plays for the first 3 turns, which appear to be more critical with the recent meta).
Thanks,
Topas
Hi Topas,
i played the Deck on the Hanau Grandprix in a little different constelation and reached place 33. All other Staxx are on the places 50+ so i never had a problem with agro decks, RDW never had a chance, ww and all others they got no carddraw. So 5c Agro are harder but can be handle. Control decks with many counters kill my staxx sometimes. I never seen gaddock against me so it never was a problem. Bad Moon etc. are only a problem on turn 3/4 at this time i have manaartifacts and crush the lands. Last game i played against the winner of the last grandprix jochen was standing 1/1 firstgame easy game, second for him and the last game was hard for him. he plays stoneforge, sword etc etc. i was at 7 live so i played a wrath of god all gone, next turn i played armagedon, and then i played moat, two turns after he is on one land i play karn, so 10 turns after i had round about 25 cards on the table 2 titans carn on 44 etc. and thats the great thing on this deck it sucks and this many times. Fast agros like ww, rdw put me on 2 live then wrath, batterskull, faiths, oath etc bring me back into game and hes on one handcard - the staxx is a pure great topdeck deck. I put new in the Deck a Day, Abyss, 2 Manaartifacts and Venser Planeswalker. So Venser is ultimative in this deck - every round a 4counter tangle wire, titans with 2 effects each turn, a moat that gone so i can atack, etc. etc. Staxx has so many killoptions and so many stalling effects and it works. A frend plays a Staxxvariant with 9 Plainswalkers and i think 15 Creatures thats so agressive but he have problems against other removal stall decks more then i. I love to stall the game, play combos on the table and my oponent has to handle all the shit. So 4/5c agros can play entchantment/artifact removal so thats cool but they only play 4-5 in a deck and whats with all the massremoval from my side, the plainswalkers, oath into big creatures. Agro is the best Metadeck you can play but staxx can handle it.
reguards
jan
Quote from: Kassow-Rossing on 26-06-2011, 09:19:06 PM
Of course you should play all ten duals. Makes no sense not to run as many duals with no drawback as possible since you have so many cards in each colour.
Quote from: Nastaboi on 21-06-2011, 07:57:43 PMOn the contrary, I'd play all ten fetchlands in five-color. While each dual gives you two colors you might or might not need, each fetch gives you the color you need most and most often the color you need second to it.
Anything from 7 to 10 fetch lands are good but playing all 10 is dangerous and I wouldn't advice it. There are enough pain in the deck already. 7 and 8 has proven to be perfect for me over many years.
A fetchland with some amount of dual lands in the deck gives you access to any color when needed. A dual land gives you access to two colors. To me it's very clear which one is better.
QuoteThese don't only exist to boost Tezzeret so once again do not listen to Nastaboi. He clearly knows nothing of what he's speaking. You should by all means keep Darksteel Citadel in the deck since it's one of the core lands. You should cut Ancient Den and Seat of the Synod because they do nothing but boost one of the Tezz's, which is not enough.
I was mostly referring to Seat and Den and should have grouped Citadel with colorless lands but forgot about it. I know pretty well that it synergizes with geddons while not wildfires. And you admit even yourself that Seat and Den have no other purpose and side with me with the argument.
Quoteso once again do not listen to Nastaboi. He clearly knows nothing of what he's speaking.
QuoteI hope you don't listen to the advices given by Nastaboi because he clearly didn't read your deck list as he also mentioned himself.
Could you please stay away from comments like these? I never stated I didn't read the list. I read it and while I disagree with many spell choices, I desided to only comment the mana base as that's where I disagreed the most. All my statements are up to argument-based criticism, but insulting me is not really a counter to my argument.
Fetchlands are always the best lands you can have. Think of them like City of Brasses that hit you only once. They also shuffle away the bad cards you saw with Top, Jace or Brainstorm (which you don't seem to have for some reason) and they make the Collective Restraint tick.
I still don't see how you can make claims like me not reading the whole deck list or not having played similar decks as neither of these statements is not true. If I disagree on something, there might be other reasons than not being educated enough on the subject.
City of Traitors is good at accelerating but has its drawbacks. If I wanted to make room for more colored lands, I would be among those to consider being cut, as I would rank it worse than Wasteland, Workshop, Academy Ruins, Tectonic Edge, Dust Bowl, Rishadan Port and Ancient Tomb.
Citadel works with Burning of Xinye if you have less or equal to four lands, true. It is a nice land to have if you can afford that many colorless sources.
(http://img703.imageshack.us/img703/2236/indexdas.png) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/703/indexdas.png/)
hm, self-proclaimed staxx master strikes again. looks like kassow-rossing still only knows his opinion and is not able to discuss/understand other opinions in a proper way.
nice to see some things do not change.
Quote from: Nastaboi on 27-06-2011, 04:20:32 PM
Citadel works with Burning of Xinye if you have less or equal to four lands, true. It is a nice land to have if you can afford that many colorless sources.
Offtopic:
Wording: You destroy four lands you control, then target opponent destroys four lands he or she controls. Then Burning of Xinye deals 4 damage to each creature.
Why does it not work with 5 lands ingame. I cant target citadel when 5 lands are ingame?
And Lash you can't choose to destroy your Indestructible land if you can choose another land instead unfortunately. It works if you control only three other lands which is like half the times.
@Kassow-Rossing:
Comments like the posted ones below are not tolerable for a friendly environment in our board. It's ok to discuss about several choices but going personal or blindly bash
someones ideas / improvements is not the way to do.
There is not only one way to build 5-Color-Staxx and to imply Nastaboi (who has excellent deckbuilding skills which are proven in lots of tournament in the last year) that
he don't know what he is speaking about seems strange.
I will have a chat with the other mods about how to handle this situation.
Quote from: Kassow-Rossing on 27-06-2011, 06:18:11 PM
... It was just an outrageous message with not one sentence of truth in it so I had to correct him. If this is the way you feel, maybe you shouldn't be on this site because I didn't write my articles to self-proclaim myself anything but to help people understand how the deck functions. I have played the deck a lot and done a lot of statistics on various scenarios so I felt I would share some of that information but not to be torn down by noobs like you who haven't said one thing right since you've entered this webpage. I'm sorry if my articles have disturbed you but you should behave or you'll be spoken to like this.
...
Quoteso once again do not listen to Nastaboi. He clearly knows nothing of what he's speaking.
QuoteI hope you don't listen to the advices given by Nastaboi because he clearly didn't read your deck list as he also mentioned himself.
By the way I don't play all 10 duals in my Staxx, I think minimizing the number of main colors in the deck + splash the others is the way to do (and I think in this case the shocklands
are better then unstable Glimmervoid or City of Brass). Ok City of Traitors and Citadel I would play, but Citadel and the other Artifact-Lands are no must plays in my understanding.
It's valid to have a discussion about that cards but not in that way.
I was helping Jan over privat messages and he is now helping me as well.
If you mention Nastaboi's great deck building skills you can mention mine as well. I win many tournaments as well in Denmark. In fact I'm the one in charge of all three montly tournaments we hold. I don't see how that is relevant at all.
I won't post any messages like the others again but I strongly disagree with the advices Nastaboi made sound like there was no other truth than his. I chose to sound just as black and white as he did in my first respond and because Crusader mixed his opinions into our discussion he pulled himself into the argument, which was his own choice.
i too feel like mentioning somebody decks skills or tournament success in a case like this is weird. it has nothing to do with this argument. its almost implying that for some people different rules apply.
Quote from: Kassow-Rossing on 29-06-2011, 01:06:19 AM
the advices Nastaboi made sound like there was no other truth than his.
If you read my first post, I wrote everything in first person, using an expression "I'd" in every paragraph. That means: "how
I would do it". If that sounds like there is no other truth, then I don't know how to write even more softly.
You are right tony, the question is not about anyone's competense of tournament level or deckbuilding. The problem is that
ad hominem should have no part in discussion.
Nastaboi I can see that and you are right. However it still sounds like you telle him to change stuff I don't think he should change. An example:
"As these only exist to boost Tezzeret, [..]"
That really sounds like a statement and like it's the only reason why those three lands are in the deck. That is not true, as I have already proven, and I felt I could take the same tone as you in my first respond to this thread.
I do understand that I was out of line when I wrote like I did. Tell me how you would have reacted. I've been playing the deck with succes for one-and-a-half-year now and then I read a thread where I, honestly, tend to disagree with everything advices. Would you be able to respond differently?
The topics:
1. I do feel like he should be playing all 10 Duals.
2. I do not feel like he should be playing all 10 Fetches.
3. I don't think he should change his multi-lands since I think those are the best for the deck. I don't think he should be playing Shocks, Filters or WWK Man-lands.
4. I do not think those three artifact lands only exist to boost Tezzeret.
5. I do not feel like he should cut Stronghold and Traitors. I do not think he needs to add more coloured lands either.
6. I do not feel like he should add basic lands to the deck just in case.
7. I do not feel like he should change Darksteel Ingot with a 2cc mana stone.
8. I do not feel like he should change the Signets for Talismans.
9. I do not feel like he should be cutting some colours to make some colours more dominant.
That's pretty much disagreeing on every term. Please tell me how you would have reacted.
Telling that I disagree, but definitely NOT claiming that the poster had not even read the deck, don't know what he is talking about, and should not be listened to. You can disagree on opinions without addressing the person behind them.
I already mentioned that I accidentally misgrouped Citadel with two other artifact lands, and you even admitted yourself that the other two should be cut for that precise reason.
first of all i can underline the things said by my mate derStefan82 in this thread
I haven't followed the topic promptly as I'm quite busy in the moment - I will have a closer look and will post a short statement how such "discussions" won't get out of hand in the future - as long the topic gets locked (probably EDIT: till Friday, tired today)
btw. i think we have a quite friendly board here in comparision to other boards i've visited and i hope this holds up
By the way I didn't say that Nastaboi has better deckbuilding skills or something like that, I only mentioned that
this exactly bad thing you did, mentioning Nastaboi don't know about how a control deck works and nobody should listening
is strange as he really build lot of successfull controldecks (including staxx/wildfire etc.).
So highlighting his own competence as excuse for those things is strange. Nobody in this thread made desicions on sombodys
competences in a negative way beside you. We're not here for fighting about competence and every guys word should be equal.
Arguments are the way to solve those conflicts and show competence.
I hope we don't need another of this discussion about correct attitude in the near future and I'm happy to lock this Topic.
some things I want to point out:
* the board exists for people to give in their opinions and to produce new ideas - so obv. everyone is welcome to do so
* therefor is quite necessary that noone gets bashed for his own opinions even if they absolut contrary to your own ones
* it's easy to cause disputs and misunderstandings so try to be gentle to the other boardmembers as good as you can (even if you had a bad day ;)) ...especially if you think he's totally wrong
I know it's hard, I've had some harsh-guided disputes on my own on several boards ::). I bashed lots and got bashed by hundreds of posters for my own opinions :) BUT..
quote: i think we have a quite friendly board here in comparision to other boards i've visited and i hope this holds up
topic is unlocked again
things cleared w/o public
have some fun again
People and Nastaboi particular I'm sorry for the troubles I've caused. Jan I hope you have great fun with your deck and that you'll have a lot of luck building a great Staxx deck.
Apology accepted. :)
Hi all,
what a trouble with my first thread hrhr.
Im very bussy atm.
@ Nastaboi good thoughts, i cutet all the artifactlands for a basic and a fetch and the 3rd dont know. To play all Duals are testet and works well atm. To Play 10 Fetchs is good but 6-8 are eneught in here i think and testet.
@ Kassow-Rossing i think you are like the deck so much that you must defense it (you are worked hard on the groundversion of it over years and still test new things) :-) thats ok - i love it also :-)
@ gerry wasn stress du mit mir hast zzzzz :-)
Gruß
Jan
First my new decklist, its not 5c anymore.
Artifacts:
1 Mox Opal
1 Mox Diamond
1 Gilded Lotus
1 Thran Dynamo
1 Worn Powerstone
1 Manalith
1 Coalition Relic
1 Spectral Searchlight
1 Everflowing Chalice
1 Dimir Signet
1 Prismatic Lens
1 Grim Monolith
1 Fellwar Stone
1 Talisman of Dominance
1 Rakdos Signet
1 Darksteel Ingot
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Expedition Map
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Winter Orb
1 Batterskull
1 Crumbling Sanctuary
Sorcery:
1 Transmute Artifact
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Compulsive Research
1 Diabolic Tutor
1 Mind Spring
1 Fabricate
1 Rhystic Tutor
1 Firespout
1 Wildfire
1 Burning of Xinye
1 Devastation
1 Death Cloud
1 Upheaval
1 Black Sun's Zenith
1 Destructive Force
1 Damnation
1 Bribery
1 Duress
1 Thoughtseize
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
Lands:
1 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Taiga
1 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
1 Polluted Delta
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Wasteland
1 Flooded Strand
1 Misty Rainforest
5 Island
2 Mountain
3 Swamp
1 Tolaria West
1 Ancient Tomb
1 City of Traitors
1 Academy Ruins
1 Mishra's Workshop
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Glimmervoid
1 Seat of the Synod
1 Great Furnace
1 Vault of Whispers
1 Darksteele Citadel
1 The tabernacle at Pendrelle Vale
1 Maze of Ith
Instant:
1 Mana Drain
1 Pact of Negation
1 Muddle the Mixture
1 Daze
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Into the Roil
Planeswalker:
1 Liliana Vess
1 Sorin Markov
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker
1 Tezzeret the Seeker
1 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
1 Garruk Wildspeaker
Enchantments:
1 Oath of Druids
Creatures:
1 Pelakka Wurm
1 Inferno Titan
1 Rune-Scarred Demon
1 Sphinx of Uthuun
1 Primeval Titan
1 Wurmcoil Engine
So the current plan is to accelerate into a big Bordcleaner. So far, the deck does pretty well. The bad matchup is vs 4c goodstuff in favor 60:40 for 4c as far as my testings delivered. Its pretty decent vs all kind of aggro decks.
Im not sure about D-Force, Sphinx of Uthuun and the tabernacle. I hope to get some feedback how to improve my mu vs 4c goodstuff. I added already discard to handle things like stoneforge mystic better (bc the red sword is really good vs this deck). The deck has not many options for specific targets (into the roil), maybe i need to play some more cards to handle stuff like B2B, Vortex, but so far i had no problems when these cards resolved.
Im thinking of adding another transmute tutor for Deathcloud, because if it resolves its usually game.
(:
Very interesting. I have no comments but I would like to applaud you for the new version!