Rules for this thread (plz read!)
* everyone in the community is allowed to post once in this thread (i want no discussions, your second post will deleted without any further warning)
* plz let me know if you want have Sensei's Diving Top in our format or not - (for me it's personally some kind of community choice so i want to have as many feedbacks as possible of the community till the next bannig deadline in october)
* i don't wanna have "either or" or unclear votings, if you don't feel safe in your decision, plz don't post
* your vote should look like
BAN (or UNBAN)
explanation (voluntary)
___________________________________
notes:
* this is no official vote for ban/unban Sensei's Diving Top - it will only influence my vote in the HLL Council in october
* this is no official thread of the HLL council, just my personal interest
part of Banned List Changes Season III - 2011
Sensei's Divining Top
Sensei's Divining Top stays on the watch list, and mainly because of the two reasons which haven't changed from the last time: Being an auto include in almost every deck, the card makes this format more like of 99 than 100 cards. Secondly, the artifact makes drawn out games while giving significant advantage to the player who has it first active. There aren't enough good tools that punishes directly from playing the card (à la Burning-Tree Shaman), so we are a little bit at crossroads here. While we strive to keep the banned list as short as possible, we must ask whether the format would be more enjoyable without the card, and for this we'd need more community input from the next 3 months. So keep posting those deck lists and tournament results.
On the other hand, the ban of Sensei's Divining Top does not fall clearly into any of the five banning reasons being an unprecedented exception to the established policy, and we don't know what waits at the end of that road. Also, the card is skill rewarding with many options it offers when activated. Lastly, we don't have enough information how the card is perceived by a larger community and the current assumption is, that the card isn't necessarily that big of a problem.
BAN
also BAN Gifts
Unban.
BAN.
The powerlevel is not the reason to ban it, I don't think. But the time issues it causes are really annoying and quite problematic in tournaments. We joked about taking a stopwatch and calculating the time every time someone picks up their top3. Turns out that is not all as they also have to think if they need to use it on their upkeep and things like that, so it actually goes beyond that. Also, I see no reason not play it every deck. I mean, it always cycles. I've heard people in my local store saying that they do not plan to make a HL deck until Top gets banned.
UNBAN.
I feel that the time spent "divining" is still bearable.
Also, it's not an autoinclude. 5C Aggro, Boros etc. don't want this.
Keep the banned list short and clean. That's my opinion.
Unban!
It isn't powerful enough to see ban hammer. there are alot of other cards that have time issues and there are other cards that are auto-includes (fetches) independently of your deck.
Aggro decks can't really abuse this (at least early on..), so even though this goes or can go in all decks this is mostly a problem in mid-games. A fast player can easily pay 1 eot and see top 3 and choose fast. The biggest problem is still shuffling not paying the 1 and choosing your top.
With this said, well me just clarify i'm not pro-banning fetches. Just saying that top, although decisive in a lot of games, specially midgames isn't powerful or disruptive enough to see a ban.
You can still play needle in everydeck to stop this. You can counters, you can krosan grip it.
just my 2 cents
Unban.
I like the skill rewarding cards.
UNBAN!
I assure you it would be a huge mistake to ban such a powerful tool for control in these days.
UNBAN
I neither think that it is too powerful nor that it takes too much time during the game to use it. If time is a factor to ban it, than we should also think about banning other cards as well.
UNBAN
Top is not a overpowered card.
UNBAN
I want the shortest ban-list as possible, and top shouldn´t be on it.
UNBAN
There will always be staple cards played in most decks. The card only consumes (too) much time because people abuse it to deliberately stall or slow play - in both cases the other player can either call a judge or make himself a nuisance to quicken game pace. Searching and shuffling your deck takes a lot of time even when trying to hurry. I also believe that because Highlander is a favorite kitchen table format people tend to fall into that play mood (slow, taking time and chatting etc.).
BAN
I also want shortest possible ban list and still think Top should be banned. I don't know what skill factors people are talking about here. Good players operate faster with Top but even then it takes lots of time and the card is just too good in control mirrors (+it's not very fun either). Burn is pretty much the only deck (I still don't count WW as a deck) at the moment that don't play this so banning it would give additional deck building options. The only other ban worthy card involving a huge time factor (on top of being brutally overpowered) is Gifts Ungiven and that should have been banned years ago.
BAN
Whoever gets the top first has a tremendous advantage, and pretty much everybody is playing it and tutoring for it.
Unban.
It doesn't feel too powerful. It's not that played in my meta. I've also not experienced the top taking alot of time in action over the years I've been playing and I feel that it has been greatly exaggerated.
UNBAN
BAN
Takes too much time. You should ban gifts also!
UNBANN
Just an annoying tool, but not overpowered.
UNBAN
It helps control more than aggro.
UNBAN
UNBAN
UNBAN
BAN
Although I like the card, it's too much time consuming and really irritating card if one of the player has it on the table and the other doesn't. One more slot for my decks please. I favor banning Gifts also.
Unban.
It's not overpowered.
BAN
It`s never fun.
UNBAN.
Not overpowered by any means. Keep the banlist short as possible. This is not done by banning general value cards.
UNBAN
Time issues is a very scetchy reason to ban a card.
UNBAN
BAN
UNBAN SDT
Top gives litle chance of deck manipulation and card quality to nonblue decks. It can help with unlucky or bad draws after mulligen, when player needs to find land or fix colors. Definetelly not broken or overpowered.
UNBAN Gifts. Strong tutor, but nothing to go wild. I dissagree with the argument - easy to splash = autoinclude. Even if current lands provide almost perfect manabase for 3c, 4c or even 5c decks, splashing another color for two or such number of cards is not worth possible mana issues.
BAN std.
1) The unfun factor. I've many times mulled away top from my starting hand (in casual games, never in tournament) as it is way too tidious to play with if you only want to experience a fun game of magic. Also, when playing against a slower player with top - good god I don't like being a dick but sometimes I just feel like punching people who first top, thne 1min later top again as it is too hard to remember the cards. When I pass the turn to someone with a top and say 2 fetchlands on the table I could easily go and draft or something..
2) The round time cannot support a control mirror where both an active top. That will be the only game (hopefully) finished in that match. Wotc came to this same conclusion, and that is not irrelevant.
3) Being skill intensive is not a reason worth keeping a card around, as we have seen from banning of f.e. survival of the fittest.
4) The only reasonable way to punish people from running top is playing decks that use their mana exceptionally well, creating an effect similar to why merfolk in legacy has a good matchup against other blue decks - they optimize their mana better. However, most people don't seem to find playing zoo or monored goblins all that enjoyable. And even in those matchups top pulls it's weight perfectly well -> HL as a format cannot punish you from running std, and I have not yet come across a deck I'd feel like would not want to run sdt. It truly is 99 card format. (f.e I feel like burn should use top to find the lethal burn spells, and WW to find it's bomby armageddons. The 2 examples I get most often for decks that should not run top)
5) the best reason I have for keeping top unbanned, is to make trinket mage better - thus making it easier to find GY hate that unfortunately is not worth running anymore - this would tune down gifts a little bit, a card I would be saddened to see finding it's way to the banned list. I know I'm arguing agaisnt myself on this one but I just felt like brining this up.
6) this obviously does not prove anything, but I am very much anti-ban person. I dont think gifts should be banned. I was sad to see sruvival go. IMO led should be unbanned. Im not sure all the tutors need to be banned that are atm. I wouldnt mind DR unbanned. Yawgmoths win I welcome wholeheartedly but I have been speaking for the banning of SDT for like a year or something. Ages it feels like. And it is one of my favorite cards in the game. Still, I cannot wait untill I get to take it out of my deck.
BAN
i feel if a card is good in every deck and additionally is colorless so it can be played in every deck, then highlander kind of turns into a 99 card format. STD + 99 cards. its the same with wasteland, but unlike std wasteland is actually good for the game i think, plus you tap it, destroy something and then its gone! if std sticks, it sticks and annoys you till end of the game.
1. makes games stale and slow paced
2. doesnt add much to the game, if control needs cards selection, there is lots available
3. turns highlander into a std + 99 card format
4. can not be easily removed, while being really powerful
BAN
BAN
Time consuming equals unfun and I think that is strong enough criterion for banning.
BAN or UNBAN that's a question...
BAN!
nuff said... well maybe not, so:
lets summarize proBAN comments: annoying, unfun, timeconsuming, easily tutorable, colorless, hard to remove, autoinclude, SDT+fetches creates too much advantage/insight against a SDT-less opponent
UNBAN comments: short banlist, not autoinclude, skill rewarding, not that powerful, time issues exaggerated
Most BAN comments make sense and I agree with them although I do love playing with SDT myself. Control decks will surely miss it but on the other hand - control match with Top on both sides is a something I will never miss :).
Unban
I see no good reason to ban SDT - time consumption is not an argument against SDT in my opinion. If we start to ban cards because they make games last long, where is the limitation to this ban-worthy "time-stretching" ability? The next step would be to ban elements of staxx decks, because they can wreck your whole game plan (Boo,unfun!) and do not win straight away, or heavy control elements - those cards can also stretch a game nearly to infinity without a chance for the opposing player to break out of this "cage".
Bannings because of time issues could end in: "Just ban all good control cards!" - That is not the way to go in my opinion. That was exaggerated, but I think you got my point.
It's a bomb in control mirrors. Yes. There will be always cards that will win a game - given the right circumstances. And this card does not win the game straight away. It needs some time to create impact on the game. So you got some time left to win, before your opponent wins out of the card quality SDT creates for him/her. SDT does not win the game for you, you still have to work for it. That leads me to...
Skill: I feel better to loose a game because my opponent's skill, than loosing against a dumb 4/5 for two mana or because of manascrew. Also: oversimplified, but again - I think you know, what I mean.
@Autoinclude: I do not think so. In aggro decks this card is much too slow. SDT provides card quality on the long term, it does not create pressure - not the thing those decks want to play.
@Slow-play, oblivious opponents: There are ways to repay in kind, if you find it appropriate in a fun format like highlander: extreme fast play to make your opponent nervous, trash talk, staring at him/her or (plain simple): beg them to play a little faster.
Off topic: @Highlander-council: good idea to directly ask the community. You're doing a great job.
+1
if i counted correctly the community vote is currently
Ban 11
Unban 21
UNBAN.
Unfun should never be an issue in my opinion, let's not turn the banlist into a "gentlemen's agreement".
Sdt is very powerful in control/3c-5c aggrocontrol because HL runs so many shuffle effects. But at the same time it provides control with a chance to find its answers vs aggro. I think the true problem -again- are the aggro/control decks which can abuse top the best with their bazillion fetches and tutors while simultaneously running a fast clock.
There are always cards which "break" mirrors in a singleton format, starting to ban them all would be stupid. For example an 1st turn runemommy is nothing I'd like to see in an aggro mirror, or *cough* mystic.
UNBAN
Most important reasons and arguments have been stated already.
/Edit: will there be polls regarding the other questionable choices to ban (Demonic Tutor, Gifts Univen, Mana Drain, etc.), too?
Quotewill there be polls regarding the other questionable choices to ban (Demonic Tutor, Gifts Univen, Mana Drain, etc.), too?
From Vazdru's initial post:
Quote* this is no official thread of the HLL council, just my personal interest
So no, polls in a thread are not a part of standard processes we've used so far, or plan to use. But we like to experiment.
UNBAN
* Skill rewarding +++
* Makes the format more enjoyable because it is a fun, but not overpowered, card to play
* Not an absolute auto-include I think, and even if it was I still wouldn't punish it since the decks that best use it don't need punishing
i try to relaunch this poll :)
like you can easily see Sensei's is on ban-watchlist again so your input could tip the scales for our votes in april
http://www.magicplayer.org/forum/index.php?topic=982.msg9729#new
Then I'll throw the first stone. ;D
- no ban
Reason(s): One of the reasons I often hear when it comes to complaining about Sensei's Divining Top are time issues. To be honest, I cannot see this point. If that would really be an issue, Top would have been banned in Legacy long ago... but I never read any complaints in Legacy forums about that. (Though, I have to admit, I'm not a Legacy player. Maybe they just don't write about it because of superstitions :P ). There are decks in Legacy that want to utilize the top every game (e.g. Miracles) but still nobody complains about the Top. Sure, the format is faster, but iirc they got just half of the time we got for one game.
As far as I remember I never faced time issues because of somebody using Top extensively, but very often because some people play so incredibly slow, that it's really putting your patience on the edge. They don't even not need a Top to stretch games - even with cutthroat aggro decks they manage it.
Most players know their decks and its strategy well enough to figure out the order of the top three cards within seconds. Against these you never face time problems because of Sensei's Divining Top. Sometimes it does take time to decide how to order the cards you see with top, but that's usually when the game is on the edge. That's ok, I think and it's not so much different from the use of other cards in certain situations. Magic is still a game that involves some amount of thinking and decision making... I guess, I don't have to tell you. :)
@autoinclude in many decks: True, just like a bunch of other cards, like Wasteland, fetchlands, duals, Brainstorm in blue decks, Deathrite Shaman,... That shows: it's a powerful card amongst many others, so what? There are still some decks that don't wanna play Top (die-hard aggro comes to my mind - if you got the mana to use the top, the game is not developing in your favor).
As mentioned before - it's a card that favors good decision making. Read: good players. Statistics and coincidences are part of the game (that makes the game diverse and interesting imho), but still I like to see the better player winning (even though that's often not me ;D ). I'm usually quite irritated by random topdeck wins from nowhere.
BAN
In my opinion the card by itself is not so strong that I would vote for a BAN.
But in combination with the timeout factor, especially on greater tournaments, is for me a reason to vote for BAN.
I personally would like to see Top go, it's just pretty annoying and most of the situations with the Top just aren't that complicated. It's usually the case of trying to find either business spells or lands and weaker players usually find the best play given enough time and that just makes the games go longer.
Time sink from the Top is also kinda sneaky: The moment you activate Top and shift between the three cards takes time that adds up quickly, but you also need to consider topping in different stages of the game. Do I top on upkeep? On my main phase? You played something, should I Top in response to find a counterspell or do I need the mana for something else? Is that card good enough to swap for the Top and shuffle it away to gain some tempo?
Those are some of the most common questions on my mind every time I have top in play and they all take some time to answer even if I never actually activate the Top.
- I don't think council should ban it because of its powerlevel
- I don't think council should ban it because of its autoinclusion in most decks
- I don't think council should ban it because of it being time consuming
I think they should ban it because of all the above reasons combined make it too obnoxious.
Quote from: carte_blanche on 08-02-2014, 04:41:17 PM
Reason(s): One of the reasons I often hear when it comes to complaining about Sensei's Divining Top are time issues. To be honest, I cannot see this point. If that would really be an issue, Top would have been banned in Legacy long ago... but I never read any complaints in Legacy forums about that. (Though, I have to admit, I'm not a Legacy player. Maybe they just don't write about it because of superstitions :P ). There are decks in Legacy that want to utilize the top every game (e.g. Miracles) but still nobody complains about the Top. Sure, the format is faster, but iirc they got just half of the time we got for one game.
This isn't a very solid reasoning. Miracles is kinda of a niche deck in Legacy, it was in limelight for a brief period of time after Avacyn Restored came out (bringing us the miracles) and it faded out with the release of the next set Return to Ravnica as it brought really problematic Abrupt Decay to demolish the Counterbalance. Some people still play it as it's pretty much the only real control deck in Legacy, but those players usually know the deck well enough to pilot it fast enough to actually win two games. It's also the only deck that runs 4x Top because the card isn't that good in that format. The reason people don't complain about it is that it is only good in handful of decks and those decks aren't tier 1 by any means.
SDT is banned in Modern and it stays that way, as Wizards axed the Second Sunrise on the pretense of it taking too much time in tournaments and Top is almost as bad offender as that deck.
I am still somewhat undecided on how I will vote regarding Sensei's Divining Top. While I believe the card is troublesome because of time consumption (especially with the many shuffle effects that are being played in our format) I am not convinced yet that is has to be banned as soon as possible. I also really hate how this card (and Jace2.0) play online. It just takes forever clicking around and rearranging cards but that it is certainly no reason for a banning.
I would like to know from you guys playing Highlander on a store level with real cards:
How many draws are happening? How involved is the Top in those draws? I rarely see games go to a draw with two fast players even with both playing slow decks in Hamburg where I am playing. With Top it certainly is a different story....
Sensei's Divining Top is a strong card, but the card doesn't win games alone.
I think this type of card (you have decisions to make) helps highlander.
It is only a supporter-card which helps Combo, Control & Midrange.
Combo & Control need this kind of cards.
If this is a vote, I vote for "NO BAN".
SDT never felt too powerful nor time consuming for me. NO ban
Don't ban Sensei's Divinig Top!
I've honestly never understood the "time consuming" argument. Yes, a slow player might take a bit to rearrange his cards with the Top, but that's the same as with other library-manipulation cards like Sylvan Library, Mirri's Guile, Brainstorm, Preordain etc. A slow player has a higher chance of timing out regardless of whether or not he uses the Top, and most players I know don't play slow enough to make using the Top an issue. It's a good card, but not totally oppressive. Certainly not powerful enough to be banned. It also provides a bit of library manipulation to decks that usually wouldn't have access to it (aka decks that don't play blue and/or green), and taking it away from these decks might further limit their viability, shift the color distribution of the decks played further towards Blue and Green and limit deck diversity. It would also make combo decks a bit less consistent. Sensei's Divining Top is an important part of the format and banning it would be a bad idea.
UNBAN
If you want to have format where there are also non agro decks, Top cant get banned. What would go next? Branstorm? Top gives nice ulitity to control decks, to combodecks and to ramp too. It is powerful card indeed, but nothing too broken. Agro can ignore opponents top calmly. In control mirrors it is pretty good card (but there is lots of cards that are way too good in control mirrors - Crucible, Mana drain, PW's, Loam, ...)
Sure, its a autoinclude in some decks and a strong card,but i think its not to powerfull. So i vote for NO BAN
imo powerlevel isn't the point to argue about as SDT isn't overpowered in any kind
a question which cross my mind:
as Sensei's Divining Top is colorless every deck can run it - that is the main difference to mentioned Brainstorm, Sylvan Library and that kind - that's also the reason why every combo and control deck must run it, like a lot of midrange too - that limits the deckbuilding of combo- and control-decks to 99 in fact :)
you find 311 copies of SDT at mtg-pulse
in comparision: Brainstorm 260 / Sylvan Library 218
so SDT is no color-staple but an archetype-staple which makes it somehow different to any other cards as it is probably the only one of its kind (except Wasteland maybe)
time-factor has been mentioned already...
fun-factor is quite subjective, but that's why we have this thread :)
there must be good reasons for banning as SDT is banned in Modern and Singleton too ::)
i can live with SDT quite good but wouldn't miss it much if I'm honest
Because of its colorless nature it goes in almost every Deck. And since it repays its investment over a few rounds it is a card most control and midrange decks want. I have, from time to time, experienced that it leads to longer games but only when it is used by players that take forever anyway and/or do not know how to use it properly. A good player that knows his deck does not take much time with this little artifact and if the game happens to go into the extra rounds it usually is not the tops fault. Games are bound to go in overtime on big tournaments. Since there is only one big Highlander tournament big enough, the time factor is neglible. In Modern it is understandable, since a huge GP features many unexpierenced players and thus guarantees extraturns every round but I still think it should not be banned in those other formats. This might be a reason but most highlander players are experienced with the format and know their decks in and out, so I doubt it is a real factor. I went in overtime on the hl gp 3 times this year. And it happened because games were going back and forth so much once, nothing happening for rounds on end the second time and vazdru playing with glacial pace (which he usually does not) the third time. Top unsurprisingly had nothing to do with it. Maybe he might have kept me in the games longer or won them earlier. Has anybody even considered that you actually might win games faster by finding what you search with the top? I think the time factor is overrated.
Top is an imensely powerful card if used correctly and that for the meagre cost of one colorless mana. But other more degenerate cards are legal, so the powerlevel argument is invalid in my opinion. It initially costs you a card without providing any immedeate value. It only gets good over time, when you can get the right spell at the right time, save a good spell from discard or smooth out your curve. But that all costs Mana and you are -1 card for as long as you have it on the board. It can only generate quality advantage and then you will still have to draw those bad spells piling up unless you find a fetch land.
As a player whose top has been played in his esper deck from its printing in Kamigawa and has spun several thousand times I would hate to see him go, although he does not warrant the inclusion of trinket mage for his and needles sake alone. So his powerlevel is not that insane at all. If it gets the axe, so be it, but I vote NO BAN.
No need to ban SDT.
SDT is mustplay in ALL highlanders, even in mono red. Who doesnt play it, well, it is his mistake. Usually those players want to ban SDT, because they dont know how/dont want to, make full profit of its power. It is skill intensive card, which is avalaible to all decks, so do not punish players, who know how to play it correctly, just because for others it is simply "stupid".
I vote for NO BAN.
UNBAN
if you think it is time demanding, what will we ban next? fetchlands? it is skill testing card, it should stay in format..
UNBAN
Can someone explain me why it is a skill testing card? Because you can improve your draws, what almost every player can do?
The reason it is banned in modern is mostly the time factor(I assume, for example a Protour in the Kamigawa block had 55 Minutes time limit because of this card).
Since we are already searching like a mad men the whole time and then people use the top again it's a real waste of time.
I vote for a ban.
No ban
No Ban.
UNBAN
Quote from: orca- on 11-02-2014, 07:47:00 PM
Can someone explain me why it is a skill testing card? Because you can improve your draws, what almost every player can do?
In my humble opinion it's a skill testing card because it reduces the variance at least a little bit. It also makes shuffle-effects way more valuable which again results in more decisions which need to be considered, e.g. tutoring with one or more good cards on top is quite a big decision. Therefore, as the numbers of possible plays is increased the better player will more often choose the better line of play.
When it comes to the time issue I don't think that SDT is the problem, it's one of the cards which shows the problem quite clearly. The problem of slow playing players taking hours for their decisions. So all in all I vote for
UNBAN.
No Ban
NOBAN
no ban
just keep unbanning combo cards until there is a tier 1 combodeck =).
ban
I vote for BAN.
In my opinion the card is not overpowered. I would consider a Ban because of the time factor. There are so many shuffle effects in the format.
The top is often used multiple times a turn. Additionaly it can be abused to avoid a loss or a draw. So I would ban it.
No ban.
Slow players will still play slow even if Top is banned. If someone tries to abuse it by slow-playing, call for a judge and ask them to observe the situation.