Messages

Since this is thread is meant to be used for a discussion, I would like to respond to Silberhases post here, since I don't really understand the reasoning behing your suggested bannings.
You wrote that you think Combo is too strong at the moment, but I think that a lot of your suggested Bans would push combo even more. Even if most Cards are used by combo Decks, they are crucial to all the fair decks running around.

I would love to see some opinions on this:

Back to Basics/Blood Moon: I think Price of Progress is the most problematic Non-basic-hatecard. While Back to Basics and Bloodmoon are useless when opponent got a solid board, PoP just can win from nowhere.

Totally Agree. If there's one Non-Basic hate card that could be removed from the format, it is Price of Progress. This Card doesn't only punish you for putting non-basic lands in your Deck, but also punishes you for playing them. It win's out of nowhere and can only be interacted with via counterspells (or dromokas command i guess). I don't think it has to be banned, but watchlisting it, could be a fine move.


Demonic Tutor: I still can't understand why people say this card beeing healthy in this format. It's played in every black deck and often wins games on its own by searching for the best card or finish up with your combo. So please ban this card and noone would consider to unban it anymore.

I can't stress enough, that in terms of bannings/unbannings, you shouldn't only look at individual Cards and decide arbitrarily which card is too strong and which isn't. How do you decide what powerlevel is too much for highlander anyways? A strong feeling you got, because you often lose to a certain card or win with it? Taking into account, what a ban or unban would do to the format and certain archetypes is the much better way and can be understood by way more people.
Regarding Demonic Tutor I see it this way: Yes Demonic Tutor is the best Tutor in highlander, but only combo decks can use this card as an "oops I win" card. Fair decks often get their best anwers to the opposing threat with it or another realtively fair threat in order to close out the game. For control and even more so for Midrange, this card is essential when it come to beating non-interactive combo decks, since you can only put that much narrow silver bullets in your deck without weakening you other matchups too much. Combo Decks on the other hand will still have an abundance of other fringe tutors available (crop, rotation, entomb, fabricate, imperial seal, personal tutor, enlightened tutor, transmute artifact, tolaria west and other transmute cards, expedition map... the list goes on). Those are often too weak (slow) for fair decks. So taking away one (the best) Tutor wont reduce the combo decks consistency very much but will hurt Fair decks and push combo decks even more in comparison.

Dig Through Time/ Treasure Cruise: I think, people underrate this cards immensely. It's just too easy to fill your own graveyard. Even cards like Phyrexian Furnace have hard times to keep this in check. Therefor Treasure Cruise feels too close beeing just an Ancestral Recall and I think Dig Through Times is even better then Cruise. These cards are banned in every other format, even DuelCommander and I guess they also should be banned in Highlander.

Comparing Highlander to other 60 Card Formats and even duel Commander doesn't work out in my opinion. Being able to put four copies of a card in a 60 Card Deck compared to one copy in a 100 Card deck is a big difference. Even the effect of the two cards is much weaker in highlander than in 60 Card formats since the chance of not finding what you need is way higher.
In duel Commander decks always have access to their general, which grants a big boost in consistency. Games play out totally different because decks are built around synergies with that general.
And as I've stated above: I think Removing those cards would kill the control archetype in Highlander completely.

Entomb: I'm totally fine with that card, but it's very hard to say, if this ban was right. It gives reanimator a big boost and it's definitely t1, but of course, combo decks never should be the deck to beat. I just would keep it on the watchlist and observe the meta.

Agree

Tainted Pact: This card is far away from beeing an Demonic Tutor and Im totally fine with that card. So just keep it unbanned.

Agree, there's a real cost to playing Tainted Pact. Trying to use this as a Demonic Tutor is often wrong. Instead you need to rethink after every card you see if that revealed card might do the job for you or if you risk exiling other important parts of your deck in order to get the right card.

Tolarian Academy: I understand that it's not always fun for the opponent to play against, but Highlander is an eternal format and imo non-interactive combo decks should also take part of the metagame. There are enough powerful banworthy cards, that would also weaken academy decks so a ban of the academy itself is not necessary Imo.

Yes, banning Academy would be a big hit for the Deck since it's a card that archetypes are built around. Thus I don't think it should be banned either. However this is the card I am least sure about.
What other cards would you suggest Banning in order to weaken Academy decks while keeping the splash damage to other Archetypes to a minimum?

Yawgmoth's Will: I don't see any reason to ban it.

I don't either.


Gifts Ungiven: I'm not sure if its correct to unban it, but this card is far weaker than cards like Demonic Tutor and Treasure Cruise/DTT for example. So if you ban these cards I think I'm fine with an unban.

Gifts may be weaker overall, but it's mainly a combo card. Taking away DT/DTT/TC in order for Gifts to enter the Format would push combo decks over the top I think. Even without the suggested Bans.

Mystical Tutor: The ban was correct Imo and there is no reason to unban it again.

You said that the ban of mystical made Terminus completely unplayable. Don't you think it would be better to have Terminus and Entreat the Angels back in the Format in order for Decks like UW Control to be good again? Why do you think it should stay banned?


I also would mention some cards not beeing at the watchlist at the moment:

Fastbond: While Tolarian Academy is a build-around-card that creates new archtypes, Fastbond doesn't help making any t3 lands decks more consistently. Its only beeing abused in various combo decks beeing more ridiculous and more frustrating for the opponent. I think it should be banned.

Isn't consistency the bigger Problem when it comes to Combo Decks? To me, Fastbond is mostly a combo Piece, that can also lead to busted start sometimes. If you don't have anything to do with you mana however, this card is stone dead. You mostly need a draw 7 in Order for it to be good. I've seen too many Fastbonds that did nothing than damage my opponent and I'd rather take away cards that increase the consistency of combo decks, than taking away the combo itself.

Karakas: this card becomes more and more problematic while even more powerful legendary creatures gets printed. This card is an absurd answer to many legends and almost a stable in every deck, not only in white decks.

I Agree that many people might underestimate the powerlevel of Karakas. It's a manasouce that can win games on it's own. Rendering a hand - with Tasigur and flip Jace for instance - totally useless often feels too strong. I've lost to this card as much as I've won just because of it and it always felt random. This Cards keeps a lot of otherwise playable and strong creatures out of the Format. BUT! With reanimator being a stong Player in the Format now, I think this Card is needed to keep it in check. If that wasn't the case, I'd be happy to see this card watchlisted and talked about at least.

True-Name-Nemesis: This card should be at least on the watchlist. This card is very hard to answer and I think its too painful for aggro decks. Although I hardly played decks, who has big problems with that card, I don't think it's very healthy for our format.

Compared to all the busted and non-iteractive cards we have discussed in this thread, TNN truly is the least powerful. You don't even have to get it off the board to beat it. Aggro Decks can race this, Flyers can race this, Trample Creatures don't care about it, Doran laughs at it and there are enough cards to kill TNN, which are played in decks already even if this card didn't exist (Liliana, Toxic Deluge, Persecution, Council's Judgement, Diabolic Edict, Sweepers, Skullcrack). I don't see this thing as problematic at all.

Also, thank you Jan (Berlinballz) for your article on Metagamemasters.eu. I like your suggestions and I do agree with you. Bannings should happen on tournament based Data - not on gut feelings we have. If a Deck becomes oppressive we should think about measures to keep it in check - not "randomly" ban cards because we think they are too strong in general.

I agree with removing B2B and Moon from the Watchlist. Those cards are annoying but necessary in the format to keep things balanced. Without them there's no reason to play monocolored or two-colored decks at all and combo decks with four or five colors will dominate.

I also agree with what Tabris wrote on Dig, Cruise and Drain on Facebook. Those are the cards that keep control in the Format. If they get banned, you Ban the control Archetype in general and blue will de downgraded to a support color for Midrange or Combo decks.
I know a fair share of the community thinks that Mana Drain is problematic. Although it can lead to busted lines you need to have the right Setup for it. After all, we only have Counterspell and Mana Drain as unconditional hard counters in the Format and those are crucial for Control Decks.

In general the power level of highlander has been growing in the last years and was pushed even more with the unbanning of Imperial Seal and Entomb. I personally like that development. But due to the rise in power level we have to think about cards that were deemed too strong for some time and reevaluate them. Compared to what Reanimator, Artifact Combo or other srteamlined Decks are capable of in the early turns of the game, even the most powerful plays that fair decks have access to are fine (Dig, Crouse, Drain, DT, TNN, Moon, B2B etc.). Most of the Combo Decks also use those cards but if you take them out of the format, the fair decks will suffer more since combo Decks have a lot of different tools to gain consistency which cannot be used to the same potential by the other Decks - like narrow Tutor effects, Lands, Transmute etc.

I think Control as at its weakest state at the moment. Counterspells have gotten worse (too slow), Creatures and Planeswalker have gotten better. It is pretty tough to keep up with the threats that people present to you and the speed of other decks. Especially if you try to 1 for 1 you opponent for the most part of the game until you can catch up with CA spells.

Combo Decks are now a real player in the Format. I am not sure if those Decks are too strong, but for now, I would sit back and observe how the metagame evolves. We only have a relatively small player Base and only few tournaments compared to the DCI Sanctioned Formats. So I think we should take some more time to evaluate the state of the Format and not use every B/R-Date to try and shake things up.

I think the Format is in a very good Condition right now so I don't see the need to ban anything.

The only thing I would change is to maybe unban Mystical tutor in order to strengthen Control Decks again. I don't know if it would push Combo decks too far though. For the same reason I would not unban Gifts Ungiven. Gifts seems too powerful for Combo Decks. Since those have become tier 1 already, there's no need to push them even more.



Final Verdict:

1. Remove B2B and Moon from the watchlist
2. No Bans needed (yet)
3. Maybe unban Mystical

[not]

I think you completely missed the point Maqi and I are trying to make here.

We are not discussing other cards and whether to ban them or not. Its about why (we think) banning DT would be a mistake.
To see why that is the case you cannot only look at the card in a vacuum, its always within a context. You need to have a look at the metagame as a whole - which was dominated by UR and mono R in the latest tournaments. Whether this is new or not is irrelevant here. It just shows that decks with DT are in fact not dominating. Weakening those decks would only shift the Metagame further towards the ones mentioned above.

And yes, you are right. There is a reason to see different points of views. This is why I opened this thread, to share mine and evoke a discussion.

Btw. I understand why a card like Shaharzard does not belong into our Format. Comparing this to DT is a bit of a stretch though

The point of bannings however is to create a better or more diverse Metagame. Keeping Decks in Check that regularly crush tournaments, that are too hard to counter if you don't join them and warp a format.

Just banning DT for being "too strong for HL" despite it not showing up in the most dominant Decks at the moment will not help the format. It should be about Decks you need to weaken or opening up new Deck building spaces. Not about a personal Vendetta you have with a card.

I don't know if unbanning imperial Seal would be the right way to go. I catually think the Card is too strong. It is another DT effect and yes it has downsides like card disadvantage and life loss. But the fact it costs only 1 Mana is scary and makes it so much harder to interact with than demonic.
It is a lot faster than Demonic, soft counters like Spell Pierce, Daze, Miscalculation etc. mostly can't hit it. Spell Snare does not hit it! And you can "sneak" it in with your spare mana a lot earlier than DT.


And unbanning Stoneforge. Well, I see the community wants it. But the Card scares me a lot. It is a 2 Drop threat that demands an answer right away. No other Creature does that in my opinion. Sure we have very strong 2 Drops but none that puts you at a very strong disadvantage if you let your opponent untap with it.
In addition I think it might actually pull the metagame towards certain colors: White and Red. White because, well, you can play SFM then and red because red has the most efficient and consistent answers to SFM in the form of burnspells (Also artifact removal). And i feel that Red is already a very present color in our metagame.

If it gets unbanned in might be similar to when Natural Order was unbanned. In Midrange matchups, the one who resolves or untaps with SFM first mostly wins.
It might not be that extreme or I also might be completely wrong though. Maybe it helps keeping RDW in check a little better so I think we could give it a try. As long as the right measures are taken if it ends up being too strong. I wouldn't be mad if if stayed on the Banlist though

What about Entomb? I think the Card is totally fine. I don't think it would make reanimator too strong and it actually might have some implications for other Decks that use the Graveyard or Yawgmoth's will.

[card needs to stay]

Hi fellow Highlander Players,

since there likely will be some changes to the banned list soon, I would like to provoke a discussion about potential upcoming changes to Demonic Tutor and share my thoughts on it.
Surveys at MGM and the Highlander Grand Prix have shown that quite some people think Demonic Tutor should be banned. I am not one of them and I am convinced the card needs to stay in our format and I will tell you why. As you can see it is quite a bit of Text but please stay with me.



1. How would a potential Demonic Tutor ban affect certain archetypes?
There are basically three archteypes that use Demonic Tutor: Combo, Control and Midrange. Since there is mostly RDW as a viable aggro Deck, besides some fringe options, I do not think a DT ban would affect that archetype too much.

Combo:
I think combo would be the Archetype that would suffer the most from a ban on Demonic Tutor. It would take away consistency from those Decks. In the last couple of tournaments we have had more midrange and aggro decks putting up good results than combo. Besides from Scapeshift and the the 5c Artifact Deck we haven't seen a lot of them. Storm has basically disappeared and we do not see many reanimator decks either.
Although I dislike playing against solitaire decks myself and It does feel miserable to lose against them I want to see combo decks in our Format. Diversity is good and makes Tournament experience interesting. Weakening Combo is not a good option in my opinion.

Control:
Black Control would suffer a little less, but still hard enough. In those Decks Demonic Tutor mostly finds you a win condition or an answer. As a control-player myself I feel that the flexibility DT provides is very much needed. It is difficult to find the right mix of answers, threads, silver bullets and win conditions for your deck. Having cards that can be either is very important. Yes, Control also has mystical Tutor and I think the card is even better than DT for control, because you don't have to "tap out" on your turn to find what you need. Anyways, taking DT away makes it even more difficult to find the right answers in any given matchup. Besides, there haven't been a lot of black control decks or DT-Splashing control Decks in the last top 8s either. Why make it even harder for them?

Midrange:
Black midrange Decks would feel the DT ban the least. Those decks are packed with Goodstuff Creatures and Planeswalkers, have a high thread density and thus high redundancy. They want to present threats and ask for answers. (As well they have Tainted Pact, which cannot be consistently played by the majority of control Decks.) Mostly it does not matter too much whether you slam a Kaya, Thrun or Leovold. If DT was banned – well – I am sure there are enough value PWs or Creatures waiting in the maybeboard to take its place. I might be exaggerating a little bit, but I think most of it is true. Besides, there are Midrange Decks like Jeskai putting up good results consistently without having access to DT.


To Sum it Up, I think Black Control and Combo would get hit the most and those Decks are and have not been overrepresented in recent Top8s. Banning DT would give Midrange decks an even bigger edge against the other Archetypes since creatures are so powerful these days and oftentimes hard to answer. Especially with the potential unbanning of Stoneforge Mystic on the horizon there might be another 2 Mana thread running around which needs you to find an answer right away.

2. What does DT do and is it too good?
Most people in favor of a DT ban argue, that DT is the best Card in the format and thus needs to go. I partly agree with the statement that it is the best Card, because it is basically every Card in your Deck. Plus 2 Mana. But that is the Limit. And having to pay the 2 Mana extra to get your card oftentimes isn't nothing. Especially in the Mid-Game if you have access to 4-5 Mana. Sometimes you don't have the time to get the real optimal card because of mana limitations. Or you have to anticipate what you will need (which can go very wrong). So the playing DT is not a no-brainer and involves some thinking and leads to interesting lines of play.
Of course it is insane in Top-Deck Mode and often leads to a win. And for combo Decks the whole story might be a bit different, because they can look for a key piece of their combo. In those cases it also might let you win instantly. In Control or Midrange this is not the Case though. Don't get me wrong, the card is strong, but not busted or oppressive by any means in my opinion.

Very important in my opinion: What DT (and other tutor effects) also allow you to do, is to play silver bullets against certain bad matchups, which is great. Highlander Decks do not have a Sideboard so it is much harder to gain some percentage points against Bad matchups. You can't beat everything but DT can help you make your Deck a little better against weak spots without having to commit too much and make your other matchups worse.
In general DT decreases variance in our Format which isn't a bad thing for a 100 Card singleton format. I even think it gives you more deckbuilding options and creates diversity instead of taking it away.

3. The Metagame is quite diverse and not Dominated by DT!
So I took a look at the decklists of the recent 9 bigger HL Tournaments we had back to MGM #6 and Broke down the Archetypes. Out of 72 Top8 Decks there were:
15 Control Decks (4 of which Played Demonic, 11 did not, none splashed for DT)
29 Midrange Decks (17 with DT, 12 without, none splashed for DT)
15 Combo Decks (All of them played DT)
13 Aggro Decks. (12 did not play DT and 1 Deck splashed for it. It was Dion's mono Ub Wizards)

Sidenotes:
- In Total 37 Decks played Demonic Tutor, 35 did not. That's a pretty even distribution. The only Azorious Control Deck was NOT splashing Demonic. The   Only one doing it was Dion's Mono Blue Wizards Aggro Deck.
- 8 of the 15 Combo Decks were Scapeshift variants. I put them into this Category since Scapeshift mostly is the primary wincondition although they play more as a control Deck, so you might put them into this Category.
- I found only 2 non-RDW Aggro Decks.
- The Only Control Decks that Played Demonic were 2 Grixis lists, 1 Mardu and 1 Sultai Control. The Rest was basically UR and very few Mono U and a Jeskai Control deck. (True control, not midrange)

4. Last thoughts:

The arguments against Demonic I recall have been
a.   "The Card is so Good, Decks even splash for only Demonic"
- I think my summary of the Metagame has shown that this is not true (anymore). UWb Decks seem to have fallen out of favor and for the people playing the Deck splashing for DT is not a slam Dunk (anymore).
- The most successful Control Deck (UR) also does not splash for Demonic. I know Payron has tinkered with the Idea but as far as I know, the version he tried was by no means superior to the straight UR version.

b.   "It is the best Card in the Format"
- Well. That does not convince me. Just because it is said to be the best Card, it does not mean it needs to be banned. Brainstorm is the best card in legacy but it stays there. (Although I know some people also suggest for it to be put on the banned list.) Brainstorm defines and warps that format though. I would not say that DT does the same with ours.
- If DT goes, there will be another best Card. And after that another. Those cards might be more difficult to identify but should they be banned as well? I don't think the "best card argument" really is a valid one.

I know it feels miserable to lose against a (top-decked) Demonic. But it also feels miserable to lose against RDW when you resolved a Siege Rhino, equipped it with Sword of light and shadow and connected 3 times (Yes, happened), as well as losing to combo Decks without being able to interact at all. There are feel-bad situations in Magic. We should accept that and move on.

Last but not least Bans and Unbans should be used to make a format better, create diversity, maybe help underrepresented Decks to shine again or get rid of oppressive cards that are so good that you basically can only either play them or try to beat them. I do not see that in our current format at all. And by no means have I ever heard anyone say "I can never beat Demonic Tutor Decks! I guess I need to join them!". We play a high power level format. Some Decks do busted things. But I haven't encountered a truly oppressive Deck lately. People adapted to the 5c Artifact deck or learned to play against it and so will we try to adapt to the RDW menace. I think our format is at a very healthy state at the moment. So I do not think we need to fix a problem that doesn't exist. I am even convinced that taking DT out of our format could decrease diversity and push Decks that are viable or close to being viable out of competition.

Thanks for staying with me through this Wall of Text! Maybe I was able to convince some people that DT isn't too bad, maybe even needed in our format. At least I hope to have provoked some new thoughts on that matter. Feel free to share your thoughts.

Cheers
Max

Deckcode: a0dblba7

x

I'm in as well, for the first time.