Hey Mythrandir,
first thank you for that elaborate answer, i really appreciate that.
But hey, obviously you do fancy Dragonlance so you have to be a good guy.
Ok, enough sweet talking for this month.
I'm going to give you my thoughts to your ideas, followed up by some Changes i will be testing from here on.
First to the "big decision" of being 4, 4,5 , or 5 coloured:
I still favour the 4,5 at the moment.
I saw in your answer that you know the problem of "what land exactly to fetch now?" as in ruling out Cryptic Command and Vedalken Shackles.
I've been pure 5C before i downgraded to 4,5 and often had the situation, that i couldn't play my next draw 'cause of colour screw - especially in the critical first turns vs. aggro.
This gets exaggerated because for me, i like to fetch some important bascis (U/W/G in that order) as soon as i feel the threat of Moons.
Interesting additional point here : I've lost many a game to the one critical LD or Signet-Kill in rounds 1 to 3.
You can hl-mulligan your hand with that deck to some nice first rounds plays but are too dependant on the colours one specific mana source gives you.
How exactly do you manage that situation?
I think this decisions here might be based more on personal playing style than on pure logical cardchoices.
Related to that i feel it would get even worse by playing more basics.
But the enemy fetchlands will change a lot here.
Btw: I couldn't play that many more basics after all (Tainted Pact).
To be exactly it's two of them: Snow-Covered Plains and Forest.
On purpose i don't use xBB Spells so no need for the snow swamp.
The snow plains would be my first choice of course but from my experience i often have too much white already 'cause of Flagstones, Karakas and Eternal Dragon. (I really deem it funny that in 9/10 times when going for the loam engine i'll Intuition for the white cycle land instead of the blue one in a U-based deck )
In the end it comes down to either snow plains or Flagstones.
But i see your point that it's not worth it to rule out red cards 100%.
Hide/Seek will see my deck immediatly and i will give Lightning Helix a go over PtE and see how that works for me.
Concerning the pure 4C-Idea:
Constraint and EE are so much more powerfull at 5 and in Mire and Foothills i have two fetchlands that sometimes need the mountain to find me the colour i need right now. This will probably get "worse" with the enemy fetchs.
Ok, enough of the general talk and to the specific cards:
Lands
Apart from that i wouldn't play it in this deck.
5C-Oath: Yeah Auto-Include but i'm playing 19 creatures myself and besides that mostly instants EoT of the opponent's turn.
Having to pay for even one or two of my creatures early would severly hold me down.
What are your experiences here in your 5-C ?
Do you play that many 3CC Creatures as i do?
Enemy Man-Lands so far have never been proven a problem for me.
Wasteland & Crop Rotation or Intuition & Loam / Pithing Needle & Trinket Mage work for me here.
Do you play the Needle?
Then again i only got 7,5 black spells, none of them BB.
Similiar land:
So far i got Crop Rotation or some crazy Brainstorm/Sensei & Dredge Vodoo or in rare situations FoF.
Thirst for Knowledge comes to mind but i play too few artifacts.
Compulsive Research is a Sorcery...
None of the Retrace Cards is good enough to be played only for this synergy.
Trade Routes is too slow.
Zuran Orb sucks.
Balance is banned.
Any ideas to this one?
I just don't know what to cut for it.
Which brings us to:
I really do think that early Sensei's wins the control mirror though.
Many people disagree with me in its importance.
So long i need more then 5 of those Colour-Fixers and Domain Enablers.
[/list]
Creatures:
What is his huge merit:
T1: CiP-Land
T2: Land, Signet
T3: Land, Rector (aiming for Restraint then)
Which is one of the best plays vs. Sligh/RDW that this deck has.
Additionally with Eldamaris Call he's the Replacement for the newly banned Enlightened.
Deed and Restraint are such key-cards in the aggro matchup...
Why did he not prevail your tests? Colour-Requirements?
These for sure are great ones, but they neither provide card-advantage nor solutions/tools like shriekmaw or Qasali.
If i'd play a second one it would be Elspeth.
I just don't understand what a PW who can't protect himself by bringing along Token-Creatures can be played in a control deck (exception being Oath for obvious reasons).
It always feels like tapping out in my own turn for an expensive Fog.
How exactly would you make use of Lilli or Jace vs. an aggro Deck?
Funny thing again is, that i persume its Colour requirements are less difficult to meet than those of the War Monk.
Do you know the strange problem that 3 Colours with blue are harder to cast then 3 colours without blue?
[/list]
Draw/Tutor:
I will try to incorporate Tithe and Shred Memories.
While i shy away from the BB for the transmute another Tutor for Mana Drain, LfTl, newly added Lightning Helix, Artefact/Enchantment Removal, occasional Colourfixing with Signets or namely any card with Demoic sounds very very reasonable. As does just winning those LftL battles.
I share your experiences with Personal Tutor.
In the end it's a second and very bad Demonic in 6/10 cases, Lftl without those looked after lands in the grave or a forseeable Vindicate or WoG in 2/10 cases each. Will become Tithe.
Permission:
I favour Forbid for the LftL synergies.
But i see your point for Dissipate if my Meta would be lotsa LftL / Oath.
Removal:
Most of your points taken.
I don't like PtE all too much either, though it's the second Intuition target for those anyoing indestructable or insane thoughness guy.
Damnation i don't see in this deck very soon 'cause of BB alone, it's a pitty.
Your Autoincludes:
It would be my 101st card for sure but i don't see what to cut for it.
My Problem with it are mainly 2 points:
It sucks early game if not by some lucky chance you have drawn the perfect card for the given board situation already.
While being perfect with Gifts and Intuiton most of the times, for me it's too slow to grab my solution out of the graveyard and play it the turn after ('cause not having enough mana to do it both in the same turn).
And most of the times i deem LftL + Acadmey Ruins/Volrath's Stronghold + Solution the better play as it is recurable and not one shot only.
[/list]
Comments to your comments on my comments:
We're agreeing here in most points.
My opinion differs only with few cards:
I see it as StP#2 first with some nice options of being a shatter or counter that draw-spell or counter of your own important spell.
The point is, that most decks that run high problem Arts / Enchantments also run a lot of creature removal.
In what cases / vs. which kind of decks does Trygon do that good for you?
[/list]
Ok, before i come to the newly made changes that are going to be playtested, the answer to the other question of you:
I play this deck RL and in MWS.
And yeah, the manaproblems - be it too many or too less manasources - are much more commonplace in MWS.
Seems like Pile-Shuffling isn't thaaaat random after all.
Newly made Changes to the Deck:
Cards i would like to play / test but just can't find anything to cut for:
I will look at this again when i modify the mana-base with the new enemy fetchlands.
[/list]
first thank you for that elaborate answer, i really appreciate that.
But hey, obviously you do fancy Dragonlance so you have to be a good guy.
Ok, enough sweet talking for this month.
I'm going to give you my thoughts to your ideas, followed up by some Changes i will be testing from here on.
First to the "big decision" of being 4, 4,5 , or 5 coloured:
I still favour the 4,5 at the moment.
I saw in your answer that you know the problem of "what land exactly to fetch now?" as in ruling out Cryptic Command and Vedalken Shackles.
I've been pure 5C before i downgraded to 4,5 and often had the situation, that i couldn't play my next draw 'cause of colour screw - especially in the critical first turns vs. aggro.
This gets exaggerated because for me, i like to fetch some important bascis (U/W/G in that order) as soon as i feel the threat of Moons.
Interesting additional point here : I've lost many a game to the one critical LD or Signet-Kill in rounds 1 to 3.
You can hl-mulligan your hand with that deck to some nice first rounds plays but are too dependant on the colours one specific mana source gives you.
How exactly do you manage that situation?
I think this decisions here might be based more on personal playing style than on pure logical cardchoices.
Related to that i feel it would get even worse by playing more basics.
But the enemy fetchlands will change a lot here.
Btw: I couldn't play that many more basics after all (Tainted Pact).
To be exactly it's two of them: Snow-Covered Plains and Forest.
On purpose i don't use xBB Spells so no need for the snow swamp.
The snow plains would be my first choice of course but from my experience i often have too much white already 'cause of Flagstones, Karakas and Eternal Dragon. (I really deem it funny that in 9/10 times when going for the loam engine i'll Intuition for the white cycle land instead of the blue one in a U-based deck
)In the end it comes down to either snow plains or Flagstones.
But i see your point that it's not worth it to rule out red cards 100%.
Hide/Seek will see my deck immediatly and i will give Lightning Helix a go over PtE and see how that works for me.
Concerning the pure 4C-Idea:
Constraint and EE are so much more powerfull at 5 and in Mire and Foothills i have two fetchlands that sometimes need the mountain to find me the colour i need right now. This will probably get "worse" with the enemy fetchs.
Ok, enough of the general talk and to the specific cards:
Lands
- Tabernacle
Apart from that i wouldn't play it in this deck.
5C-Oath: Yeah Auto-Include but i'm playing 19 creatures myself and besides that mostly instants EoT of the opponent's turn.
Having to pay for even one or two of my creatures early would severly hold me down.
What are your experiences here in your 5-C ?
Do you play that many 3CC Creatures as i do?
- Mishra's Factory
- Rhishadan Port
Enemy Man-Lands so far have never been proven a problem for me.
Wasteland & Crop Rotation or Intuition & Loam / Pithing Needle & Trinket Mage work for me here.
Do you play the Needle?
- Urborg
Then again i only got 7,5 black spells, none of them BB.
Similiar land:
- Riftstone Portal
So far i got Crop Rotation or some crazy Brainstorm/Sensei & Dredge Vodoo or in rare situations FoF.
Thirst for Knowledge comes to mind but i play too few artifacts.
Compulsive Research is a Sorcery...
None of the Retrace Cards is good enough to be played only for this synergy.
Trade Routes is too slow.
Zuran Orb sucks.
Balance is banned.
Any ideas to this one?
- Vesuva
I just don't know what to cut for it.
Which brings us to:
- Acadmey Ruins
I really do think that early Sensei's wins the control mirror though.
Many people disagree with me in its importance.
- Mirage Fetchies
So long i need more then 5 of those Colour-Fixers and Domain Enablers.
[/list]
Creatures:
- Acadmey Rector
What is his huge merit:
T1: CiP-Land
T2: Land, Signet
T3: Land, Rector (aiming for Restraint then)
Which is one of the best plays vs. Sligh/RDW that this deck has.
Additionally with Eldamaris Call he's the Replacement for the newly banned Enlightened.
Deed and Restraint are such key-cards in the aggro matchup...
- Stoic Angel
Why did he not prevail your tests? Colour-Requirements?
- Tarmo & Figurine
These for sure are great ones, but they neither provide card-advantage nor solutions/tools like shriekmaw or Qasali.
- Planeswalker
If i'd play a second one it would be Elspeth.
I just don't understand what a PW who can't protect himself by bringing along Token-Creatures can be played in a control deck (exception being Oath for obvious reasons).
It always feels like tapping out in my own turn for an expensive Fog.
How exactly would you make use of Lilli or Jace vs. an aggro Deck?
- Doran
Funny thing again is, that i persume its Colour requirements are less difficult to meet than those of the War Monk.
Do you know the strange problem that 3 Colours with blue are harder to cast then 3 colours without blue?
[/list]
Draw/Tutor:
I will try to incorporate Tithe and Shred Memories.
While i shy away from the BB for the transmute another Tutor for Mana Drain, LfTl, newly added Lightning Helix, Artefact/Enchantment Removal, occasional Colourfixing with Signets or namely any card with Demoic sounds very very reasonable. As does just winning those LftL battles.
I share your experiences with Personal Tutor.
In the end it's a second and very bad Demonic in 6/10 cases, Lftl without those looked after lands in the grave or a forseeable Vindicate or WoG in 2/10 cases each. Will become Tithe.
Permission:
I favour Forbid for the LftL synergies.
But i see your point for Dissipate if my Meta would be lotsa LftL / Oath.
Removal:
Most of your points taken.
I don't like PtE all too much either, though it's the second Intuition target for those anyoing indestructable or insane thoughness guy.
Damnation i don't see in this deck very soon 'cause of BB alone, it's a pitty.
Your Autoincludes:
- Hide/Seek
- Lightning Helix
- Tarmo & Damnation
- Regrowth
It would be my 101st card for sure but i don't see what to cut for it.
My Problem with it are mainly 2 points:
It sucks early game if not by some lucky chance you have drawn the perfect card for the given board situation already.
While being perfect with Gifts and Intuiton most of the times, for me it's too slow to grab my solution out of the graveyard and play it the turn after ('cause not having enough mana to do it both in the same turn).
And most of the times i deem LftL + Acadmey Ruins/Volrath's Stronghold + Solution the better play as it is recurable and not one shot only.
[/list]
Comments to your comments on my comments:
We're agreeing here in most points.
My opinion differs only with few cards:
- Bant Charm
I see it as StP#2 first with some nice options of being a shatter or counter that draw-spell or counter of your own important spell.
- Trygon Predator
The point is, that most decks that run high problem Arts / Enchantments also run a lot of creature removal.
In what cases / vs. which kind of decks does Trygon do that good for you?
[/list]
Ok, before i come to the newly made changes that are going to be playtested, the answer to the other question of you:
I play this deck RL and in MWS.
And yeah, the manaproblems - be it too many or too less manasources - are much more commonplace in MWS.
Seems like Pile-Shuffling isn't thaaaat random after all.
Newly made Changes to the Deck:
X Krosan Verge Doran Shred memory Tithe Lightning Helix Hide / Seek | replaces | Y Grasslands Rhox War Monk Skeletal Scrying Personal Tutor Path to Exile Cryptic Command |
Cards i would like to play / test but just can't find anything to cut for:
- Vesuva
I will look at this again when i modify the mana-base with the new enemy fetchlands.
- Stifle
- Regrowth
[/list]