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Topics - Lorian

#1
Deck Lists / 4,5-C Control
08-09-2009, 01:30:23 AM
Hey there,
i'd be gratefull for some opinions to the deck and some suggestions for the questions / considerations afterwards.
First the Decklist:

          // Colour-Lands: 33
          Tundra
          Tropical Island
          Underground Sea
          Savannah
          Scrubland
          Bayou
          Volcanic Island
          Plateau
          Badlands
          ---
          Hallowed Fountain
          Breeding Pool
          Watery Grave
          Temple Garden
          Godless Shrine
          Overgrown Tomb
          ---
          Snow-Covered Island
          Island
          Plains
          Forest
          Swamp
          ---
          Flooded Strand
          Polluted Delta
          Windswept Heath
          Wooded Foothills
          Bloodstained Mire
          ---
          Flood Plain
          Bad River
          Grasslands
          ---
          Reflecting Pool
          Flagstones of Trokair
          Karakas
          Lonely Sandbar
          Secluded Steppe
      
          // Utility-Lands: 6
          Tolaria West
          Academy Ruins
          Volrath's Stronghold
          Nantuko Monastery
          Wasteland
          Maze of Ith
         
          // Mana-Artefacts: 5
          Coalition Relic
          Azorius Signet
          Dimir Signet
          Selesnya Signet
          Simic Signet


          // Creatures & Planeswalker: 19
          Qasali Pridemage
          Trinket Mage
          Kitchen Finks
          Court Hussar
          Shadowmage Infiltrator
          Eternal Witness
          Rhox War Monk
          Glen Elendra Archmage
          Venser, Shaper Savant
          Academy Rector
          Loxodon Hierarch
          Stoic Angel
          Etched Oracle
          Meloku the Clouded Mirror
          Mulldrifter
          Shriekmaw
          Eternal Dragon
          Exalted Angel
          ---
          Garruk Wildspeaker

          // Draw & Dig & Tutor: 16
          Ancestral Vision
          Skeletal Scrying
          Fact or Fiction
          ---
          Sensei's Divining Top
          Brainstorm
          Impulse
          Worldly Counsel
          ---
          Life from the Loam
          Crop Rotation
          Personal Tutor
          Tainted Pact
          Demonic Tutor
          Eladamri's Call
          Intuition
          Gifts Ungiven
          Mystical Teachings


          // Permission: 8
          Pact of Negation
          Force of Will
          Misdirection
          Counterspell
          Mana Drain
          Forbid
          Dromar's Charm
          Cryptic Command

          // Removal & Anti-Aggro & Stuff: 13
          Pithing Needle
          Swords to Plowshares
          Path to Exile
          Vindicate
          Bant Charm
          Krosan Grip
          Engineered Explosives
          Pernicious Deed
          Wrath of God
          ---
          Vedalken Shackles
          Collective Restraint
          Treachery
          ---
          Phyrexian Furnace

Ok, let's start discussing that stuff.

1.) Auto-Includes that just aren't in here, 'cause too expensive

  • Library of Alexandria
  • Moat

2.) General performance of the deck as it is
I'm halfway contempt with its performance.
The main problems are very good starts of red-based Aggro with burn or U(w) Stax or Mana-Denial builds.
Moon-Effects and BtB can be handled most of the times by expecting it and playing accordingly.
Creature-based Aggro without too much burn can normally be handled and
vs. other control decks i feel it has a very good matchup.

3.) The colour red and the mana base
At the moment there are only three red duals in here to power domain and sunburst (having EE and Restrains available at 5 often helps me loads) and help with fetching for double colour requirements or after some landdestruction.
(Badlands will become a Taiga as soon as i aquire one.)

I've tested the deck for some time with red splashes like Fire/Ice and the likes but what i found is, while it helps vs. aggro it really worsens the matchup vs. Moon / BtB and Mana-Denial.
So the red cards had to go.

What i dislike about the mana base is, that in the worst case i've got 6 CiPt-Lands, especially the Mirage-Fetchlands. Fact is, i know no alternatives as other lands would again worsen the matchup vs. LD, moon, etc..
Any ideas here? (maybe a moot point if the new edition really has new fetchlands)

4.) Cards on my personal "watchlist"
There are some cards i'm not 100% sure about in this deck. I'd be delighted if some of you would share their experiences with those in similiar decks:

  • Flagstones of Trokair
Rocks with Crop Rotation and vs. LD - sucks vs. Moon & BtB
  • Karakas & Venser, Shaper Savant
The combo really owns when you get it in the right moment. Then again sometimes it just feels like "win even more" or it's an very expensive Boomerang or the land that should have been a snow-covered plains.
  • Rhox War Monk
It buys a lot of time vs. Aggro if you meet the colour requirements in turn 3 / 4 ...
  • Garruk Wildspeaker
Similiar here. Sometimes wins the game sometimes it'S an expensive Fog in sorcery-speed...
  • Skeletal Scrying
Wins the late-game vs. control but is often dead vs. aggro as at the time you can afford to spend some mana for it instead of removal or playing your own critters you often don't want to get yourself in burn-range.
  • Cryptic Command
Another highlight vs. control and sometimes vs. aggro in special situations.
At other times you want it to be that Mana Leak.
[/list]

5.) "Unusual" choices in my build that i'm -so far- very sure of.
I've been told a lot of times that this card should't be included or that the other card is an auto-include and i should use it.
Here are the Highlights i'd really like some more opinions about:

  • Mirage-Fetchlands
Yeah, i also dislike the CiPt. Alternatives would be Filterlands or Ravinica-Commons. But in my opinion they have all the synergies: LftL, Fetching Basics vs. Moon / BtB, Skeletal Scrying, Nantuko Monastry, domain, sunburst.
What do i miss here?
  • Nantuko Monastery
Some say you can't afford it cause of the colorless mana and yeah, i kinda hate within my first 10 cards.
But what i see is the recurring 4/4 1st-Striker that can't be handled with Sorceries.
  • Darksteel-Ingot / More Signets / Talismans
One could play more Artefact-Mana.
As it stands in 1/10 games i already get mana flooded sometime in the mid-game.
  • Bant Charm
This argument i don't understand. What's not to like about the versality of Bant Charm?
  • Vedalken Shackles
This card has won me many a game.
Sure it's target for the opponents artefact removal, but on the other hand unhandled it win's vs. creature based aggro and in the late-game vs. control really makes him dig for his Krosan Grip.
  • Mana Leak / Condescend & all that 3CC-Counters
I'm really low on Counter-Spells in this version.
Reason being, that in turns 3 or 4 i usually want to tap out for some creature, Shackles, etc.
So in my view, i'm better of with some removal for the 3/4 CC Thread i could'nt counter in the first place.
But maybe i'm missing something here too?
[/list]

6.) Cards i might want to include but am not sure about them / don't know what to cut
Ok, finally (yeah, you almost made it through the whole hell of a post! ;) ) here's a bunch of cards i'd like to play or even have played for a while but sorted out.
Maybe you can share some experiences of your own concerning these?


  • Future Sight
This would be the prime target for the rector vs. control builds.
A pitty that vs. any fast aggro it would be only win more if finally i could play it.
But as it stands, i have no viable rector target vs. control right now.
Sure, sometimes Treachery does the job or a Deed may protect me from some large Decree but more often than not Rector is a chump-blocker vs. some fattie here.
Any idea for some enchantment that is good vs. aggro and vs. control?
  • Solemn Simulacrum
Possible 2-1 tradeoff but then again so slow...
  • Voidslime / Stifle
Stifle... Instant Strip Mine, Savior vs. some nasty triggered effect or... the other dead card...
Is it worth it?
To circumwent this, i tried Voidslime for some time but the colour requirement really sucks as for some reason almost always you have your only green mana on the Tropical in the early game.
  • Deep Analysis
Sorcery Speed Draw 2 for 4? 3 Life and 2 Mana blocked vs. Aggro?
I see that card in Aggro-Control Builds sure, but in here?
  • Raven's Crime
Oh, i like it with an up and running LftL-Enginge!
But hey, when i got that engine going, didn't i win already anyways?
  • Krosan Verge
2 Lands for One! Suck empty your library of surplus lands in control late-game!
But so unbelievable slow...
  • Trygon Predator
This guy left alone for 2-3 Turns early wins the Matchup vs. Stax and similiar Artefact-based decks.
And most of the time he does nothing vs. that nasty Crucible or Scroll Rack of the other Control-Guy.
Would i be Survival, i would play it. But here?
  • Knight of the Reliquary
Well, he would just fit into the concept of the deck and find me that Utility lands i need right now.
But wait, didn't Intuition and Gifts already do that and more at instant speed and without dying to some terror?
  • Pulse of the Fields / Story Circle
This would seem some possible solutions to my problem with very fast aggro-burn.
But then again i'll prefer Deed or Restraint most of the time instead of Circle and the Circle will also die to Deed or EE at 3, which often is a must in this Matchups.
And Pulse?
Most RDWs play some form of lifegain-denial or that many painlands, that you can't get much out of it anyways.
[/list]


Ok, first of all:
Thank you very much if you really read all these of my thoughts.
I'd really appreciate your opinion to some of my questions and considerations! ;)