UB Control/Robbery

[grizzledmage]

OK - this is the current build I'm using...

// Lands
    1 Sunken Ruins
    1 Reflecting Pool
    1 Bad River
    1 Temple of the False God
    1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
    1 Dimir Aqueduct
    1 Tainted Isle
    1 Watery Grave
    1 Underground River
    1 Salt Marsh
    1 Frost Marsh
    1 Urza's Factory
    1 Terramorphic Expanse
    1 Faerie Conclave
    1 Spawning Pool
    1 Tolaria West
    11 Island
    8 Swamp
    1 Barren Moor
    1 Lonely Sandbar
    1 Secluded Glen

// Creatures
    1 Guile
    1 Dominating Licid
    1 Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir

// Artifacts
    1 Mind Stone
    1 Talisman of Dominance
    1 Sensei's Divining Top
    1 Staff of Domination
    1 Phyrexian Totem
    1 Chronatog Totem
    1 Dimir Signet
    1 Drake-Skull Cameo
    1 Nevinyrral's Disk
    1 Fellwar Stone

// Instants
    1 Muddle the Mixture
    1 Brainstorm
    1 Cryptic Command
    1 Remand
    1 Dismiss
    1 Rewind
    1 Mana Leak
    1 Pact of Negation
    1 Spell Snare
    1 Negate
    1 Remove Soul
    1 Counterspell
    1 Telling Time
    1 Spite/Malice
    1 Swat
    1 Smother
    1 Dominate
    1 Rend Flesh
    1 Sudden Death
    1 Eyeblight's Ending
    1 Force of Will   
    1 Chill to the Bone
    1 Devour in Shadow   
    1 Capsize
    1 Expunge
    1 Forbid
    1 Dissipate

// Enchantments

    1 Annex
    1 Control Magic
    1 Enslave
    1 Persuasion
    1 Confiscate
    1 Legacy's Allure
    1 Copy Enchantment
    1 Take Possession
    1 Debtors' Knell
    1 Treachery

// Sorceries

    1 Profane Command
    1 Night's Whisper
    1 Demonic Tutor
    1 Beacon of Unrest
    1 Diabolic Tutor
    1 Compulsive Research
    1 Counsel of the Soratami
    1 Ponder
    1 Foresee
    1 Ribbons of Night
    1 Damnation
    1 Ancestral Vision
   

Mythrandir suggested I include "pointers;" i.e. good/bad matchups, and what seems to be lacking. As to GOOD matchups, I would say I generally do well if the other guy (1) gets mana screwed, (2) gets mana flooded, or (3) has a skill/experience level that's lower than mine. BAD matchups are, well, the opposite.

Seriously, though; I am not noticing that my win/loss record is better/worse against any particular style of opponent. Overall, I can put in a better showing against any deck that is not too lightning fast,  but even against such fast decks (like direct damage, weenies, aggro) I still do not feel that I am intrinsically overpowered.

I will say that, even though I can often hang in a long time, the deck just seems to not have that extra "je ne sais quoi" to see it through successfully to the end. (This is all assuming, of course, that it is being played optimally by the controller, and frankly that's a whole other discussion.)

And here are some additional cards I have been considering as additions (of course, there's always the question of what to take out for each addition as I do not wish to go above 100 cards.)

Note that some of the cards below involve land-hate, as I am finding that a significant source of my troubles end up being land-based.

Land hate:

1 Nettlevine Blight
1 Pooling Venom
1 Shifting Borders OR Political Trickery
1 Poison the Well

I am also thinking that more bounce could be useful; right now there's really only Capsize, so perhaps

1 Recoil (I like it better than Boomerang due to the discard)

I have a lot of counters, but maybe not enough/optimal? Other possibilities:

1 Put Away (expensive but getting a card back - sort of -  from GY could definitely be useful)
1 Draining Whelk
1 Counterbalance
1 Time Stop (?)
1 Last Word (?)

Other robbery spells I have also considered:

1 Commandeer (although kind of situational and kind of expensive)
1 Steal Artifact (also somewhat conditional but potentially very good)
1 Blatant Thievery (expensive BUT perhaps to replace one of the other creature-only steal spells I have, like maybe Persuasion or Enslave)

Other miscellaneous considerations:

1 Worldpurge... for when things are just going wrong... an ultimate board sweep
1 Unmake, instead of one of the others (like maybe Chill to the Bone)
1 Mystical Teachings

SO - any and all comments are welcome, including other cards not mentioned here, including general comments on the advisability of the whole deck approach, etc. etc.... and I ask for as much detail in your responses as you are willing to muster.

Thanks guys!

[Mythrandir]

OK - this is the current build I'm using...

// Lands
    1 Sunken Ruins
    1 Reflecting Pool
    1 Bad River
    1 Temple of the False God
    1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
    1 Dimir Aqueduct
    1 Tainted Isle
    1 Watery Grave
    1 Underground River
    1 Salt Marsh
    1 Frost Marsh
    1 Urza's Factory
    1 Terramorphic Expanse
    1 Faerie Conclave
    1 Spawning Pool
    1 Tolaria West
    11 Island
    8 Swamp
    1 Barren Moor
    1 Lonely Sandbar
    1 Secluded Glen

// Creatures
    1 Guile
    1 Dominating Licid
    1 Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir

// Spells
    1 Mind Stone
    1 Muddle the Mixture
    1 Brainstorm
    1 Talisman of Dominance
    1 Annex
    1 Profane Command
    1 Cryptic Command
    1 Night's Whisper
    1 Remand
    1 Dismiss
    1 Rewind
    1 Demonic Tutor
    1 Mana Leak
    1 Pact of Negation
    1 Beacon of Unrest
    1 Diabolic Tutor
    1 Spell Snare
    1 Negate
    1 Remove Soul
    1 Compulsive Research
    1 Control Magic
    1 Enslave
    1 Persuasion
    1 Counterspell
    1 Counsel of the Soratami
    1 Sensei's Divining Top
    1 Telling Time
    1 Staff of Domination
    1 Confiscate
    1 Phyrexian Totem
    1 Spite/Malice
    1 Swat
    1 Smother
    1 Chronatog Totem
    1 Dimir Signet
    1 Dominate
    1 Legacy's Allure
    1 Rend Flesh
    1 Sudden Death
    1 Eyeblight's Ending
    1 Ponder
    1 Copy Enchantment
    1 Force of Will
    1 Drake-Skull Cameo
    1 Nevinyrral's Disk
    1 Chill to the Bone
    1 Devour in Shadow
    1 Fellwar Stone
    1 Capsize
    1 Foresee
    1 Ribbons of Night
    1 Take Possession
    1 Expunge
    1 Debtors' Knell
    1 Treachery
    1 Forbid
    1 Damnation
    1 Ancestral Vision
    1 Dissipate

Mythrandir suggested I include "pointers;" i.e. good/bad matchups, what seems to be lacking. As to GOOD matchups, I would say I generally do well if the other guy (1) gets mana screwed, (2) gets mana flooded, or (3) has a skill/experience level that's lower than mine. BAD matchups are, well, the opposite.

Seriously, though; I am not noticing that my win/loss record is better/worse against any particular style of opponent. Overall, I can put in a better showing against any deck that is not too lightning fast,  but even against such fast decks (like direct damage, weenies, aggro) I still do not feel that I am intrinsically overpowered.

I will say that, even though I can often hang in a long time, the deck just seems to not have that extra "je ne sais quoi" to see it through successfully to the end. (This is all assuming, of course, that it is being played optimally by the controller, and frankly that's a whole other discussion.)

And here are some additional cards I have been considering as additions (of course, there's always the question of what to take out for each addition as I do not wish to go above 100 cards.)

Note that some of the cards below involve land-hate, as I am finding that a significant source of my troubles end up being land-based.

Land hate:

1 Nettlevine Blight
1 Pooling Venom
1 Shifting Borders OR Political Trickery
1 Poison the Well

I am also thinking that more bounce could be useful; right now there's really only Capsize, so perhaps

1 Recoil (I like it better than Boomerang due to the discard)

I have a lot of counters, but maybe not enough/optimal? Other possibilities:

1 Put Away (expensive but getting a card back - sort of -  from GY could definitely be useful)
1 Draining Whelk
1 Counterbalance
1 Time Stop (?)
1 Last Word (?)

Other robbery spells I have also considered:

1 Commandeer (although kind of situational and kind of expensive)
1 Steal Artifact (also somewhat conditional but potentially very good)
1 Blatant Thievery (expensive BUT perhaps to replace one of the other creature-only steal spells I have, like maybe Persuasion or Enslave)

Other miscellaneous considerations:

1 Worldpurge... for when things are just going wrong... an ultimate board sweep
1 Unmake, instead of one of the others (like maybe Chill to the Bone)
1 Mystical Teachings

SO - any and all comments are welcome, including other cards not mentioned here, including general comments on the advisability of the whole deck approach, etc. etc.... and I ask for as much detail in your responses as you are willing to muster.

Thanks guys!

after looking at the decklist here are some "out's and in's":

LANDS:
- bad river
- salt marsh
- frost marsh (is the snow land that important?)
- terramorphic expanse
- secluded glen
- spawning pool
+ wasteland (great against those pesky manlands)
+ mishras factory
+ mutavault
+ maze of ith
+ fetchlands (u have flooded, polluted and bloodstone)
+ thawing glaciers
+ underground sea?? (too $$$ expensive for you?)

i know there are more in's than out's, but just test them out.. even if it means taking out some basic lands. i dont feel that a 2 color deck ,even if its a control deck need that many 2 colored lands, specially if u play fetchs.

CREATURES:

never tested (nor played against) guile so... teferi is a great card.
have u tried guilded drake? it works wonders if you have bounce cards.
+ shadowmage... despite being a stealing deck, doesnt mean u dont have creatures yourself.

COUNTERS:
mana drain (too $$$ expensive for you)?
then i would suggest:
+ desertion -> fits the concept
+ faerie trickery
+ hinder
- negate
- remove soul -> these 2, i´d take these to because u probably have the 3rd mana to play a hinder or faerie trickery.. so

OTHER SPELLS:
- profane command
- nights wisper (blue has better draw effects, dont u prefer deep analisys?
- beacon of unrest
- counsel of the soratami (once again there are better ones.. for more 1 mana u have concentrate, at instant speed u have stroke of genious, etc...)
- spite/malice (better options out there)
- swat (better spot removal or even bounce)
- legacy allure ( instead threads of disloalty?)
- foresee (impulse instead)
- expunge
- ribbons

+ threads of disloalty
+ impulse
+ repeal
+ repulse
+ diabolic edict/chainers edict???
+fact or fiction
+gifts ungiven and intuition (best tutors around)
+ necromancy
+ animate dead -> these 2 are great since you can use them on oponnents grave
+ bribery???

ARTIFACTS:
i think u have plenty of mana artifacts which is kind good.. but no grave hate?? what do u do against LFTL? grave hate is essential. ad tormod crypt, phyrexian furance/scrabbling claws and u could then add trinket mage

+ vedalken shackles (great in your deck)

PLANESWALKERS:
jace??
Lilian is good and fits the steal grave concept,u should try them out

as for your suggestions:

1 Nettlevine Blight
1 Pooling Venom
1 Shifting Borders OR Political Trickery
1 Poison the Well

these are too sub-optimial... the only 1 that i could see playing is shifting borders... nice to give him 2 basic lands (specially if he isnt playon U/B) and getting some nice lands.. good because of instant speed.. but even then,... need seriously testing?

1 Put Away (expensive but getting a card back - sort of -  from GY could definitely be useful)
1 Draining Whelk
1 Counterbalance
1 Time Stop (?)
1 Last Word (?)

i give your better options up there :)´

1 Commandeer (although kind of situational and kind of expensive)
1 Steal Artifact (also somewhat conditional but potentially very good)
1 Blatant Thievery (expensive BUT perhaps to replace one of the other creature-only steal spells I have, like maybe Persuasion or Enslave)

Other miscellaneous considerations:

1 Worldpurge... for when things are just going wrong... an ultimate board sweep
1 Unmake, instead of one of the others (like maybe Chill to the Bone)
1 Mystical Teachings

mystical teachings: YES, specially if u play teferi
steal artifact: Probably YES.
all others: NO, better options/too expensive

after eventide try using UR stealing avatar (dominus of fealty) + necroskitter (stealing concept and more pressure)

NOTE ON THE DECK: from what i´mm seeing you´re way too dependend on other ppl plays, you should add some creaures of your own, specially to put some presure on, i´d definitely add the manlands because these do just so. also try 1 or 2 more fatties/creatures.

well i hope it helps.

[grizzledmage]

Wow - pretty extensive, and LOADS to think about.

Some initial responses...

On lands, your suggestions of fetchlands are excellent... but unfortunately I have none (even after obtaining an entire booster box of Onslaught a couple years ago... how annoying is that anyway...) and am currently unwilling to spend the $$ for any - but I will keep an eye out for possible trades. Similar for Underground Sea - don't have any and unwilling to spend the $$. The manlands (Mutavault, Mishra) are excellent suggestions; I have no Mishra but can obtain one without too much trouble, and can swap them in for a couple of the CIP-tapped lands (e.g. frost marsh, salt marsh).

Guile is incredible in a regular constructed MU deck but frankly its utility here thus far has been negligible... bad situations?... even though I can still envision great things for it. Will consider. Gilded Drake; hmmm... will consider also but likewise seems very situational. Shadowmage Infiltrator I was considering earlier anyway and will open that book again.

Negate/Remove Soul out for Hunder/Faerie Trickery; I hear you loud and clear... but counterarguments - (1) N/RS both great in early game; Negate better than H/FT in countering counters (2) plus N/RS can both be fetched with Muddle the Mixture, which has come in handy more than once. (Although is MtM comes out for Mystical Teaching... and I don't know if I want that yet cuz MtM has fetched Demonic Tutor for me many times... then that aspect becomes moot.)

Also, why Faerie Trickery instead of Cancel? (BTW, earlier version did have Faerie Trickery but swapped it for Forbid.)

- profane command
- beacon of unrest

Really! I find these to have great utility - why don't you like them?

- nights wisper (blue has better draw effects, dont u prefer deep analisys?
- counsel of the soratami (once again there are better ones.. for more 1 mana u have concentrate, at instant speed u have stroke of genious, etc...)


Agreed - will look into these... how about Inspiration also?

- spite/malice (better options out there)

The aspect of choice/option is very attractive... what might be better?

- swat (better spot removal or even bounce)
- legacy allure ( instead threads of disloalty?)
- foresee (impulse instead)
- expunge
- ribbons

OK... although I definitely like the Ribbons...

+ threads of disloalty

I've seen almost no creatures that it could enchant.. and getting it onto an animated manland is unlikely, and wouldn't stick anyway.

+ impulse
+ repeal
+ repulse
+ diabolic edict/chainers edict???
+fact or fiction
+gifts ungiven and intuition (best tutors around)
+ necromancy
+ animate dead -> these 2 are great since you can use them on oponnents grave
+ bribery???

Good suggestions all; I would have to obtain a FoF and Necromancy, but neither too expensive.

Liliana is a great idea but in a creature-poor environment I fear that I will be unable to protect her from attack... but might be worth a try... and the tutoring is very nice...

And I will almost certainly add the Mystical Teachings.

Grave hate; Tormod's Crypt actually hurts me as well (Beacon, Debtor's Knell, Animate Dead, etc) - how about something like Withered Wretch? Also adds a touch of combat help.

AND... what do you think of Isochron Scepter, especially if I add in some of the cheaper instants you have suggested?

[Mythrandir]

Wow - pretty extensive, and LOADS to think about.

glad to be of help

Guile is incredible in a regular constructed MU deck but frankly its utility here thus far has been negligible... bad situations?...

as in never having popped up in a game? or having in hand/play didnt help at all??

Negate/Remove Soul out for Hunder/Faerie Trickery; I hear you loud and clear... but counterarguments - (1) N/RS both great in early game; Negate better than H/FT in countering counters (2) plus N/RS can both be fetched with Muddle the Mixture, which has come in handy more than once. (Although is MtM comes out for Mystical Teaching... and I don't know if I want that yet cuz MtM has fetched Demonic Tutor for me many times... then that aspect becomes moot.)

this is just my opinion.. your deck can easily cast these counters on 3rd turn.. so negate/remove soul would "only" be good at countering something on 2nd.. i think remove/negate are more for a aggro deck. you need hard counters, specially because you dont play that many counters.

Also, why Faerie Trickery instead of Cancel? (BTW, earlier version did have Faerie Trickery but swapped it for Forbid.)

easy, faerie removes (LFTL, genesis, wonder, etc..) and its only drawback is against (probably) UW skies that runs somes faeries.

- profane command
- beacon of unrest

Really! I find these to have great utility - why don't you like them?

mainly because they are too expensive. i´d rather have animate dead and necromancy instead of those two.

Agreed - will look into these... how about Inspiration also?

well, i prefer deep analysis (specially if you play with gifts and intuition) or concentrate.. even though they are sorceriesyou´r probably better off with them.. laso FOF way better than that

The aspect of choice/option is very attractive... what might be better?

why not just a hardcounter? or a cheaper spot removal? i understand the verstatility, but i think they arent good enough...

- swat (better spot removal or even bounce)
- legacy allure ( instead threads of disloalty?)
- foresee (impulse instead)
- expunge
- ribbons

OK... although I definitely like the Ribbons...

ribbons is nice, but its a bit expensive.. 5 mana to (try) kill and draw a card?.. at sorcery speed? it doesnt let u hit players, only creatures... if i have an exalted angel on the table, this isnt enough, also this doesnt pass by regeneration...


+ threads of disloalty

I've seen almost no creatures that it could enchant.. and getting it onto an animated manland is unlikely, and wouldn't stick anyway.

havent u played against U/X skies? also it hits tarmagoyf, but i see your point.. probably too narrow card.

Liliana is a great idea but in a creature-poor environment I fear that I will be unable to protect her from attack... but might be worth a try... and the tutoring is very nice...

well, at least she will act as a shield...

Grave hate; Tormod's Crypt actually hurts me as well (Beacon, Debtor's Knell, Animate Dead, etc) - how about something like Withered Wretch? Also adds a touch of combat help.

believe me, it doesnt hur you as much as it hurts the other player... if u had tormod i couldnt activate my nantuko (no threshold.. ) but for your deck i´d add the furnace or scrabbling claws or bothh.. if you´re dealing with non-grave deck you can traded it for a card, as it has the cantrip.. so you´re trading 1 for 1

AND... what do you think of Isochron Scepter, especially if I add in some of the cheaper instants you have suggested?

well.. what shall i say about this card... i´ve tested, i´ve played, i´ve played it against.. and i dont think it´s worth it... unless you really transform your deck... what happened (many, many times) was i played it, removed and then got hit by disenchant... so you´re trading 2 for 1 =/ not a good trade.. also it can be hit by stifle... and in late games if your hand is empty this is just a useless card... =/ me personal experience is that in 100 card this aint worth it..

[Vazdru]

I'm in fear i will help you too much before we played game 2 and 3  but i think i should tell you that the best card in your deck concept is still missing  .

Vedalken Shackles! it's a gamebreaker vs almost every aggro deck as long it stays in play.

In my opinion Sower of Temptation is much better than Domininating Licid.

In a Counter/Control-Deck i always prefer Thirst for Knowledge over Compulsive Research; Fact or Fiction over Foresee; Impulse over Ponder - always for the same reason: Instant Speed!

Think about adding more basic lands and use Back to Basics - of course Mythrandir would never advise you to but its almost an autowin vs  Multi-Color-Deck, especially with your 2C-Control-Deck  - every UW-Control runs it so have a try.

Try Darksteel Ingot + Coaliton Relic for Cameo + Chronatog Totem and the best control card at all: Mindslaver!.

Bribery is in my opinion in your deck an autoinclude.

- Nightwhisper, Counsel of Soratami, Guile, Spell Snare

[grizzledmage]

Man my head is swimming with all these possibilities...

I'm in fear i will help you too much before we played game 2 and 3  Wink but i think i should tell you that the best card in your deck concept is still missing

Vedalken Shackles! it's a gamebreaker vs almost every aggro deck as long it stays in play.

This will almost certainly go in. It had been in the original draft build months ago, but the deck had many more non-basic lands and many fewer Islands, so I removed it and then forgot all about it. And I happen to own... one.

In my opinion Sower of Temptation is much better than Domininating Licid.

Huh - I'd missed that one altogether! I like the DL, though, because it can still work on a creature after the DL is in play... plus it can be "saved" from creature removal etc. etc... in other words, I see it as more versatile.

In a Counter/Control-Deck i always prefer Thirst for Knowledge over Compulsive Research; Fact or Fiction over Foresee; Impulse over Ponder - always for the same reason: Instant Speed!

Good suggestions, and some of them also mirror Mythrandir's. I would, unfortunately, have to obtain a FoF, although they're not too expensive these days.

Think about adding more basic lands and use Back to Basics - of course Mythrandir would never advise you to but its almost an autowin vs  Multi-Color-Deck, especially with your 2C-Control-Deck  Grin - every UW-Control runs it so have a try.


Indeed... but as you say it would be better to swap in some more basics... and wouldn't it then go against any manlands I have, or put, in?

Try Darksteel Ingot + Coaliton Relic for Cameo + Chronatog Totem and the best control card at all: Mindslaver!.

Bribery is in my opinion in your deck an autoinclude.

Also good suggestions; I don't have any Bribery or Mindslaver or Coalition, but in truth these are ALL cards I've been wanting to obtain anyway.

- Nightwhisper, Counsel of Soratami, Guile, Spell Snare

First two are probably already out (so to speak), and the last two are under scrutiny...

[Mythrandir]

Think about adding more basic lands and use Back to Basics - of course Mythrandir would never advise you to but its almost an autowin vs  Multi-Color-Deck, especially with your 2C-Control-Deck  - every UW-Control runs it so have a try.

worst card ever.. not even worth trying it really, awful, awful card

[grizzledmage]

Mythrandir is safe... for now...  I do not have any Back to Basics and at this moment I do not have the time/inclination to go chasing after those cards I do not own.

After some consideration, I have made these changes:

-Secluded Glen  +Mutavault
-Frost Marsh  +Wasteland

-Negate  +Faerie Trickery
-Remove Soul  +Hinder

-Swat  +Diabolic Edict
-Persuasion  +Vedalken Shackles
-Ribbons of Night  +Liliana Vess
-Expunge  +Mystical Teachings

-Foresee  +Impulse
-Night's Whisper  +Shadowmage Infiltrator
-Beacon of Unrest  +Animate Dead
-Legacy's Allure  +Steal Artifact
-Counsel of the Soratami  +Inspiration

-Drake-Skull Cameo  +Withered Wretch

(That last slot was a toss-up for WW, Tormod's Crypt, and Darksteel Ingot, and frankly I got tired of agonizing... finally went with WW in the hopes of getting another guy on the ground... good decision? Probably not  )

A number of the suggested cards for inclusion I really like, but simply don't have... so here we are for now... and let the games continue...

[Mythrandir]

-Drake-Skull Cameo  +Withered Wretch

(That last slot was a toss-up for WW, Tormod's Crypt, and Darksteel Ingot, and frankly I got tired of agonizing... finally went with WW in the hopes of getting another guy on the ground... good decision? Probably not  )

A number of the suggested cards for inclusion I really like, but simply don't have... so here we are for now... and let the games continue...

well, for me the problem is that Withered wretch is creature, by that i mean u have to cast and keep it in order to RFG, so there isnt any elemental of surprise. i would instead add a shred memory (which has transmute) or scrablling claws (that have a cantrip). the 2/2 body that the WW has isnt that great, specially in a non-aggro deck...

[grizzledmage]

Even though I have no plans on running this deck in any future tournaments (well, probably not), it is nevertheless a fun deck to have and play locally with my playgroup (http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/njveteranmages/).

Anyway, I have recently come into possession of a Standstill, so I took out the deck last night and swapped it in for Inspiration.

(I have also been playing around with a few other new decks for fun; 1 or 2 of them might be worth consideration to pilot in a future tournament...)

BTW I have been following most of the results in the current tournament. Hoping to try my hand again in Season V, which I assume will begin in January or sometime around then.