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How I voted and why

Started by ChristophO, 01-04-2016, 07:22:06 PM

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ChristophO


Hi everybody,

as a member of the HL council I want to make the decisiojn making process more transparent (as many have asked here in the forum). THis is why I will write a post here with how I voted this time and give an outlook how I will vote the next time. I hope to achieve discussion within the community and constructive replies that will help the community to be engaged in the voting procedure. While this discussion will not change the voting just passed (in March) it could and should strongly influence my voting procedure in June (for 1.07 update). In the best case we would have a complete discussion about all possible votes and while not everybody will agree with my votes everybody has the possibility to make his voice heard and hopefully replied to more often than not. To achieve this we need to stay civil, rational and keep the "noise" if possible low without making it impossible what is important to respective poster.

This will be a work in progress!

Bans (Y/N):

Sensei's Divining Top:   YES

Explanation:
- Observation: Highlander is plagued by games going to time.
- Sensei's Divining Top is the biggest offender.
- Tournament data from Slowakia (~50+ players) showed that decks with Top ended in a draw 10% of the time in that tournament. There was a single draw between decks not playing  Top.(draws can happen because of controly decks not just because of Top of course). Still those numbers are horrific.   
- This matches with my personal perception of draws being very problematic in the format while attending tournaments in the past.
- Rounds already last 60 instead of 50 minutes (at the cost of 2 extra turns) due to concerns matches not finishing on time
- Drawing is especially bad in HL as well because the Frankfurt tournaments routinely hand out first round byes making losses
- Alternatives for reducing time use I can see in fetch lands which would be an even more drastic change hence I chose to go with Top
- I hope loss of card strength in UW control (and similiar decks) will be compensated by a lower percentage of matches ending in a draw.

Natural Order:  YES
Explanantion:
I am extremly unhappy with Natural Order having been unbanned for such a short time only. That said both for the banning and unbanning of that card a mayority in council was there without my voting. I had hoped to see a push to current Tier 2 decks such a pattern, green ramp and maybe others I would not foresee (mayber elves?). That said NO still strongly buffs the multicolored midrange decks in the format. Green 1cmc mana elves are among the strongest fair things you can do in this format. Wasteland and the Dark Depths package make a resolved Natural Order for Primeval Titan a true nightmare. I am open to discuss other banning possiblites to make NO a harder inclusion in midrange decks such as 4c blood. Without Dark depths and Primeval titan I would like to have NO back in the format.

Fastbond: YES
Explanantion:
My mind is pretty much made up about htis card. I strongly feel it is a card that is either completely busted when played or do nothing. It is banned/restricted in every 60 card format and rightly so. I have alwys voted againt the card being in the format and will continue to do so. Hopefully together we can rid the format of the card.

Oath of Druids: YES
Explanation:
For a long time I wanted to keep the card in the format. I was always hoping the card would enbale nice Oath control decks and even played stuff like that every now and then. Sadly the card is almost exclusively used to mill you complete deck in 5c storm or artifact combo or to find Salavagers for an on the spot combo kill. The card is also way to cheap and hard to remove and was always very busted and just balanced by the downsides of forcing the plethora of great midrange creatues out of the deck. Since I want to weaken the artifact and stack based combo decks in the format I feel this is a correct choice.

Mana Drain/Maystical tutor/Demonic Tutor: Keep on  WL 
I am not convinced those cards need to be banned. While they are swingy so are many other cards in the format. I also feel the format needs strong tutors to enable decks besides goodstuff. I know that especially the finnish community is concerned and unhappy with Demonic being legal.



Watch list:

....to be continued...


My perception of the format:
Problems:
- 4c midrange is too strong because fixing is too easy
- matches take too long
- stack based combo decks are too powerful

My vision for the format:
No busted stuff on T2 (or earlier) with two card combos in the meta. 
Combo decks are viable but not Tier 1 so meta does not get warped.
Creature based combo decks like reanimator or pattern are no problem.



Vazdru

#1
Thanks Christoph for starting this!
First of all I like the idea giving the community a better insight in the process leading to he decisions made by the council. On the other hand I respect and understand that there are good reasons not revealing the whole discussion or the votes itself. I guess if anyone tries to reflect that he/she will also find good reasons for ... at least if he tax his brain ... at least I hope so ... for his own sake. Anyway I take that risk to run this experiment which can go either way.

Forgive me that I just quote my votes and ideas, please check the posting-date before you read. It's all quoted even if I would express my thoughts differently nowadays especially if it is made for a public announcement (keep in mind it was made in a ,,safe" area and originally not for being public. Thanks for your understanding!)

Quote from: Vazdru on 21-03-2016, 09:32:38 PM
concerning transpareny: I've never had the idea to reveal the whole discussion nor to disclose the individual votes but just the final results. My idea was to give the community the chance to understand which cards are discussed controversial in the council to encourage them to launch their own petitions and start open discussion within the community and with us about this cards. Actually the community doesn't know much about the process lead to our decisions and therefore do not take part that often which is a sad thing imo. The reasons for this effect is surely versatile, nevertheless  I pondered if it would be a noteable and good sign and a step towards the community and in favour of a better transpareny of our work.

But everyone can obviously reveal and explain his own votes and quote his own ideas for the format which Christoph already did.
At the beginning of the council this wasn't the main idea because the council was seen as a team, discuss controversly behind closed doors but fight for a common aim but with same principles and statements in public.
This "closed doors" become critized lately, I understand the concerns mentioned. To represent ideas which you are not absolutely agree upon got harder too.

Before I start I will refer to some facebook comments first:
I support the idea that every active hl-community, especially those with regularly hl tournements like e. g. Erfurt or Leipzig should have at least one representative in the hl council.
So if you feel being part of an unrepresented active hl group please raise your voice and I will do my best for you to get your member in the council, if there is anyone of you willing to do this "job".
In fact it was one of the first discussed basic principles in the council, that active hl-communities, no matter where it is located should get a chance to change the format and it's developement.
That this aren't just empty phrases should be obvious for everyone (at least if he try to open his/her eyes) as Dalibor as first Slovakian council member joined us recently.
That it is hard to specify a community in a common sense, to find the best way to find its represantatives (based on the visible dedication for our format, based on democratic votes or supporters etc.) has been already discussed. There are quite different approaches how this can work well.

Quote from: Vazdru on 27-10-2015, 06:35:09 PM

Perfect Number of Council Members

Im my opinion there is no ideal member number for the council. I don't see a reason why e. g. 9 should be worse than 7? Coordination? No, if all of them are willing to participate somehow I can only see upsides of a bigger number. Sure thing, the voting-power of a single member decreases with the headcount of the council, but even this can be seen as neutral (at least no downside imo).

Quote from: Vazdru on 30-08-2015, 02:55:36 PM

I still believe it is a good idea to have a "representative" of the Slovakian community in our council
it will be the right signal to foreign communities that we are aware of it and value their local work for our format
furthermore it doesn't feel right to have 5 council members from Germany, 2 of Finland but no Slovakian one based on the community-size

Now my votes:

Natural Order: BAN
Quote from: Vazdru on 29-02-2016, 10:45:44 PM
Natural Order
-> ban, remove from watchlist


The expected (rather hoped) impact unbanning this card hasn't happened imo. Additionally it turned out that Natural Order is still an autoinclude in almost every green-based deck and makes Midrange-Mirrormatches more random than Jitte ever could  ;) I have to confess I was wrong voting for a unban.

Demonic Tutor: BAN
Quote from: Vazdru on 22-03-2016, 02:45:51 PM
concerning Demonic Tutor:

it is obviously an iconic card for all highlander player, I'm aware of this as I play highlander for about 20 years now
but things have changed during that long time
we have the highest density of tutor effects, I already disliked the unbanning of Enlightened and Mystical Tutor but I am now adopted to that
with every set the number of tutors rise, we have som good ones for creatures (Green Sun's Zenith, Eladamri's Call, Fauna Shaman) but also combo got some new tools (Dark Petition and Bring to Light just to name a few)
furthermore we still have banned Imperial Seal which seems quite unlogical for me based on the power level compared to DT (it is just a matter of the price-tag)
Demonic Tutor is just too cheap and flexible imo
there are lots of scenarios where T2 Demonic can just lead to an easy win, no matter if you go for Wasteland, combo-piece or non-basic hate
I guess not the card DT leads to is the problem but the option to go for any best card to the given scenario and of course the cheapness (CC) of DT
i stay with my vote for ban  

Mystical Tutor, Mana Drain: NO BAN
Quote from: Vazdru on 29-02-2016, 10:45:44 PM
We've had 3 big tournaments recently: Slovak Cup, Highlander Cup and Metagame Masters, the metagame was diverse in my opinion, nevertheless we've had 4C-Blood-Mirror in the finals at the biggest of those tournaments and recent MGM-Final was 4C-Blood vs RDW ... against this background I don't like to weaken blue-based control or combo-players by removing one of the mentioned cards. If the meta changes somehow, my opinion towards this cards may change, therefore I would like to keep them all on watch-list.

Workshop: NO BAN
Fastbond: NO BAN
Dig Through Time: NO BAN


Quote from: Vazdru on 07-03-2016, 02:47:31 PM
One thing we should keep in mind as well imo: our aim is to have a broad field of possible decktypes and therefore a diverse meta-game
If we ban cards like academy and/or Workshop the archetype "Artifact-Control / -Combo-Control" is weakened obviously. Actually we have already just a small amount of this decks, which perform good but not over the top. They will vanish obviously if we remove Workshop and/or Academy. Furthermore we  have already a high amount of 4c Blood, Jeskai and Izzet in our meta. I don't like to change banned-list in that way, to get an even bigger cluster of these archetypes in our meta.

Workshop (no ban, meta-reasons)

Fastbond (would be ok, if it is gets banned but I still like the idea that people tinker deck-builds around this card, which seems broken in only a few scenarios //  Hermit Druid kills you btw. in the same unfair way like Buried Alive-Combo as well - the only reason why these cards are not banned is that the decks playing it aren't too powerful - and imo same is true for Fastbond)

DTT (no ban, power-level)

Sensei's Diving Top: Abstention rather ban
Quote from: Vazdru on 21-03-2016, 09:32:38 PM
concerning Sensei's Divining Top:

SDT has an exeptional position as we don't have any other card on our banned-list for the reasons listed for banning top
i feel it should be banned but want to postpone this till a according guideline has been prepared
so i vote for "active abstention, keep on watchlist"  

Sidenotes:
Quote from: Vazdru on 03-03-2016, 10:58:48 PM

following mind game:

player A looses quite often vs Fastbond
player B looses quite often vs High Tide
player C looses quite often vs Workshop Trinisphere
player D looses quite often vs Scapeshift

each of those players can find good reasons to ban Fastbond, High Tide, Workshop, Scapeshift
none of them can accept the reasons of anyone other because there is no fundamental data but their own limited experience
each attempt of A, B, C or D to concinve any other is foredoomed


conclusion:
each of them can vote for ban or unban based on their experience
if you have a larger group of experienced players the most annoying card get axed on the long run

any other solutions ??

maybe just ban all of them ??

Quote from: Vazdru on 04-03-2016, 01:30:35 AM

I compare nothing - it was just a mind-game  :)
just replace Hightide with Tolarian Academy or Scapeshift with Oath ... just let your imagination run wild
it doesn't matter at all for this thought experiment

in fact not only "early kills" or "fast mana" are felt as unfun
in fact I hear people complaing about Blood Moon, Scapeshift, Dominance of 4c Blood, Yagmoth's Will, Sensei's, Price of Progress, Tabernacle etc etc and my impression is that most of them talk to me because of their own experiences and not based on a big view on the format, which is obviously quite hard without relying data and everyone around shouting: "your approach is weak because it is based on insufficient data - so let me have MY opion based on MY experience and be quiet"  

would it be as easy we've just have to ban the random early kills aka Tolarian Academy, Mana Drain, Fastbond, Mishra's Workshop, Hermit Druid etc and everything is fine? ... then it would be perfectly ok for me to do so

Quote from: Vazdru on 01-04-2016, 02:17:55 PM
we need another date for Ban/Unban-Announcements!
this "April's Fool" jabbering is annoying and makes a serious debatte impossible

:) good night!
Far below the earth
Where the demons hunt the souls of those that sleep
In the city of the Vazdru and the Drin
Where the black flame burns inside the palace fountain.

Vazdru

some additions:

Quote from: Vazdru on 17-03-2016, 02:51:26 PM

i've added Tainted Pact to wl-suggestions
reasons:

* for multicolor goodstuff-decks it is a basically a second, instant speed Demonic Tutor
* for decks like 4c Blood it usually doesn't matter if you have 25 or 70 cards left in your deck after Tainted Pact resolved
* its restriction (until...remove two cards with the same name) do not work in hl-multicolor-decks anyhow
* it is no card for combo basically or single-/two-color-decks but strengthen only the multicolor midrange decks like 4c Blood - to make those decks a bit less attractive banning Tainted Pact should be discussed imo


Quote from: Vazdru on 23-03-2016, 01:49:05 PM
we all have to accept that there are quite different views on single card and its powerlevel
for player A Fastbond is overpowered, B says Workshop and C says Sensei's - there is no black or white rather wrong or right, they all have different experience and different interpretations
for me SDT isn't overpowered although i voted for abstention rather ban but for other reasons
Far below the earth
Where the demons hunt the souls of those that sleep
In the city of the Vazdru and the Drin
Where the black flame burns inside the palace fountain.

carte_blanche

Thanks for explaining a bit why you voted for / against bans. Even though I don't agree on all of this, it makes it a lot easier to... digest if ppl give reasons.

The post is kinda spam, but I wanted to express explicitly that I appreciate you explaining your thoughts on the cards on the respective (un-)ban-lists. Kudos to you!

Maqi

#4
To honor the understandable request for more transparency regarding the council's decisions, I will make my vote public too.

Ban:
Mystical Tutor (overall a little too strong, ends games in somewhat random fashion)
Natural Order (too oppressive early, random, almost always gg)
Mana Drain (t2 drain into 4+ drop is just dumb. There is no counterplay to it, because doing nothing plays in the hands of the drain deck)

Unban:
(Nothing) (I cannot identify a card that would enrich our format. With the exception of maybe Gifts Ungiven. I'm a little skeptical though. Therefore I didn't add it)

Add to ban watchlist:
Tolarian Academy (hard to get rid of, enormously broken when the setup is achieved)
Mishra's Workshop (randomly ends games t1 or t2. Feel bad gameplay. Allows no counterplay)

In the case of Sensei's Divining Top, I went with "leave unbanned". Although I hate the way SDT plays, I acknowledge that it is an integral part to most U(x) decks and I fear that they might be weakened a little too much. That being said, there were many super strong blue cards printed recently (DTT, Mystic Confluence for example). Blue Control is certainly far from unplayable.



There is one thing I want to add to the ongoing discussion of implementing direct democratic principles to the ban/unban process.

As you can see, I voted for a Workshop ban. Is Shop an immediate problem metawise? I'd say no. Nevertheless, the card is randomly broken and suppresses interaction beginning from turn 1.

The point is, one can have differing underlying principles when deciding about bans/unbans. In short:

I. Is the meta diverse? => no bans
II. Are there cards that pose intrinsic game problems in spite of a healthy meta => ban those cards

There is no right or wrong here. Two people can have differing opinions and can both be right, when you take their underlying philosophy into account.

We are currently working on establishing a unified ban/unban philosophy for future decisions. Such a thing seems undoable when you position the voting process at community level.

Nevertheless, I am not opposed to a community vote for example, that is added to the regular voting process.

Nastaboi

My votes:

BAN Sensei's Divining Top

Playing against this card is just plain miserable. Anyone who has been on receiving end of EOT top, fetch, top, draw, top, land, fetch, top knows what I'm talking about. Every single HL player in Finland has wanted the Top gone for years, and their frustration has lead to things like not putting Top in their deck in purpose, soft banning it in playgroups for non-tournament matches and even flirting with the idea of their very own format and ban list. When the ban was announced, it was dismissed as April fool's because it was "too good to be true".

DON'T BAN Natural Order

In Finland, people are not jamming NO in general good stuff decks, as its inclusion has an opportunity cost. Here it sees only play in decks like Hulk combo or ramp decks, where it's more central to decks strategy. Those decks are not considered among the best but rather tier two strategies, and the card Natural Order is not even that good against blue based control decks or aggressive red decks, which are plenty. News on its ban were met with disbelief and anger.

--

BAN Demonic Tutor, Oath of Druids

These are the most powerful cards not banned. Demonic is the more powerful of the two, but Oath is less interactive.

DON'T BAN Mystical Tutor, Fastbond, Mana Drain, Dig Through Time

These cards are powerful but less powerful and harder to abuse than Oath or Demonic. Right now I feel they don't warrant a ban, but I might change my mind in future.
Quote0:13:51 [Nastaboi] Nastaboi plays Invincible Hymn from Hand
0:14:25 [Nastaboi] Nastaboi's life total is now 221 (+213)

pyyhttu

My votes and rationale behind them:

On banning Sensei's Divning Top

We've already banned a card partly due to the time constraints it caused
(Shahrazad). Sensei's Divining Top is worse. It is widely printed and good,
that its impact is felt as an overall enjoyment and fluency of game play,
which in Highlander with 100 cards and search effects is already stressed. If
you guys remember, the old extended with Sensei's Divining Top created game
states where one player durdled around with the top of their library for a
minute or two every single turn. Players hated that, especially in control
mirrors by the player who didn't manage to find his Top before opponent did.

Top has been such a difficult card to measure, because it does not fit it in
any of the four banning policy guidelines Vazdru mentioned above. In fact, if
we ban it, we would go against "keeping the number of banned cards as low as
possible", but with Top the overall enjoyment of the format would in my
opinion take the precedence, and make an exception.

On not banning Natural Order

Simply because we unbanned it so recently. Leave it for a while so that we can
gather the necessary tournament statistical data about it.  Then proceed to
make an informed decision. Having card banned just recently and then banning
it again just 6 months afterwards is too short a period to gather statistics.

On removing Fastbond from watchlist:

Fastbond has been on watchlist since October 2014. Time to make mind on this
one. Has the card made an undesirable impact, or can it be kept?

On removing Mystical Tutor from watchlist: Mystical Tutor has been on and off
from watchlist since October 2012. It has been mainly been used in UWx-based
controls, or then in various combos. And since combo decks are under presented
in the format, I would keep the card, and remove it from the watchlist.

On removing Oath from watchlist: I'd like to hear others on this. Why should
this banned? At the moment I'm abstaining: The card currently has role in four
decks: some builds of Academy, Storm, Oath and rogue. Because of the rogue
factor, I'm currently more inclined to keep the card. Banning the card would
only kill that deck type.

On banning Mana Drain: Quite a many people have addressed this as a game
swinger and random. We could at least see couple of years how the format would
be without this. Banning Drain could justify then other cards, like Gifts

On banning Demonic Tutor Demonic is the core reason why people splash black.
UW-control for example. I'd like to see how the format would be without this.
I know this would nerf combo, but banning Demonic could justify then other
cards, like Vampiric, which is still card disadvantage and not self evident
play against aggro.

On removing Dig Through Time from watchlist: Dig is powerful, but not this
powerful. It would be one of those weird banned cards player base would not
never understand.


Tabris

#7
Before I talk about my votings I want to make clear that I am strongly in favor of making those decisions transparent before the
actual voting procedere is happening. So members of the community can interact with our considerations and opinions can change.



Fastbond [Ban]: I voted for a ban. Simply put this cards breaks one of magics core rules. Playing a land on each of your turns. Its from an era were card
evaluation and powerlevel consideration were not present at all. In magics history we encountered several instances of "fast mana enviroments" that broke their
respective metagame. Necropotence+Bloom, Urza Cycle, Affinity, to name just a few. Even recently we saw what can happen if the focus is put only on standard and people
try to abuse fast mana cards in older formats (modern with summer bloom/eldrazi). So WotC itself said it numerous times, fast mana is always bad for a competitive environment.

Fastbond is the GODEMPEROR of fast mana, giving storm a powerful tool to make yawgmoths will even stronger. Now I admit I voted for the unbanning back then. I was naive
enough to think/wish that some niche land decks could make good use of this card. I was wrong, very wrong. So keeping this card in the format is a mistake and you cant adept to
this since its ridicolous cost of one mana allowing you to hold it back until the turn you are going to abuse it (and please dont say discard...we have 3 or 4 if you are generous,
staple discard spells) or you just play it t1/2 and all the damage is already done before you can do anything about it.

Mystical Tutor [No Ban]: I dont see that card as problematic as some other council members. Its an important tool for control decks and will always play a huge role
in spell based combo decks (which I want to have in the format). Surely its instant speed and mana cost make it very strong. We play an eternal format after all (meaning
we always will have powerful cards) and while I embrace the singleton idea I also like consistency and possibility to build niche/weird decks which need
such cards (high tide, scapeshift, staxx,). If you deny those consistency/redundant tools we are all doomed to play boring goodstuff decks which are simply playing the
best cards from all five colors and therefore generate a very redundant deck.

Oath of Druids [No Ban]: This card is ridiculous. One could say I am very biased since I ve won a HLGP on the back of this card (how is brag-camp going?). The Oath control shell
I played was fitting my playstyle very much. I love flexible cards and controlish blue based decks. Oath of Druids was helping me to have some kind of cheap win option while
fighting the goodstuff/control/aggrocontrol battles pretty much on my terms. Now since storm became a force (and I am in favor of the creatureless Storm builds which will simply
win if there is no counter/hate element on the table) this card created the occasional "ups I win" games. Those are frustrating and I want players to have fun. Its a long time
since I ve seen Oath Control as a deck and last time I played the card was it was in Eggs (since you got a 50/50 chance of winning with LED+Salvagers). That being said I dont identify this card
as too strong to ban it but absolutely see its potential to be there and therefore want to watchlist it. It doesnt need much to convince me to also vote for a ban tbh.

Natural Order [Ban]: Here we go again with mistakes and stuff. I ve voted for a ban back in the day, voted for the unban last year and now I voted for a ban again. So you could say
I didnt learn my lesson the first time but let me assure you I did it this time. I saw some comments regarding the "weird" fact that we just unbanned it so why would we ban it right away.
Well maybe because we arent wizards and shit. We need to evaluate a format with 18k cards (I think?) and the interactions in a highly diverse meta and we thought we could
bring that card back into the format to make certain strategies stronger. Well let me tell you thats now what happend but instead we pushed goodstuff lists even more
to the point were the format got even more random since many matches were decided who resolved NO first (very close to birthing pod where the person who resolved a Pod first had a 70% chance to also win that game).

In the future there will be even stronger targets than Titan.
So its only a matter of time until we need to ban it. Since the core mechanic of this card is skipping mana costs (again, mana is a balancing factor) and its not that hard to
set it up with new mana elves coming every four editions. Its sad that we cant make ramp strategies stronger but tbh I think we didnt even scratch the possiblities regarding this archetype
so maybe people need to invest more hours into their decks if they really love ramping so much they shouldnt rely on the card and wait until NO arrives so they can get ahead with little to no work whatsoever.

Mana Drain [No Ban]: This card is strong. very strong I am not questioning it. Its also the only unconditional hard counter besides actual counterspell. So I like to have strong control
decks in my meta. Not only because it fits my playstyle but because I think its necessary to have that archetype in a healthy meta. With Ugin/Karn we see that Mana Drain got more
application but you still need to have something to have it really matter and the trend is going to 3c+ decks where the color restrictions are reason enough to keep Mana Drain in check.
Additionally I want to take the lazy route and say its an eternal format where the powerlevel will always be high (it seems convenient that I take this argument when it fits my "busted"
cards but not for others for example Fastbond. If someone makes this kind of objection I would say that the one cards breaks the structure of the game and doesnt allow much interaction or close to no work while the other cards are just powerful but dont allow you to do that without any cost (oath requires you to play no utility creatures, drain has heavy mana costs + follow up card and so on).

Senseis Divining Top [No Ban]: I was against the ban since I am in huge favor of consistency (which allows on the long run the better player to win more games) and also liked the idea
that we give non blue decks a tool for library manipulation (other than sylvan library, mirris guile etc.). Its also a fine tool for control an a very good tool for combo decks. I
see the time argument and tbh I am not too upset the card is gone since it also allows for some new cards to shine (staple blindness etc. but thats another issue). I will for sure
miss it in my UW control deck were I was unreasonably happy like a child when I could instant Terminus my opponents board.

Demonic Tutor [No Ban]: I dont want to waste much time on this. Its one of the best cards available to us. Its cheap its easy to splash and it gives some sweet sweet consistency. I am
sure I am not the only one who searched 90% of the time a land with this card. Now thats not an excuse to distract you from the powerlevel of the card. Its ridiculous but then
again I had never the feeling "wow my opponent is playing DT how unfair" it was fine and gave some decks reach it otherwise wouldnt have also combo decks got better with it and so on.

I think this card is iconic, its stylish and maybe its too powerful but I dont think it will lead to a healthier meta not having this card anymore. As always we have to ask ourself do we
want to sacrfice the power of tier 2 decks to weaken tier 1 decks. Because an UB control deck will profit way more from this card than lets say 4cblood. I didnt answer that question
for myself but banning DT right now seems wrong (no hard counter arguments as you can see so I would be interested what the community has to say about it). Oh I did waste some time on this.

Dig Through Time [No Ban²]: Sorry I cant say much but this. If you think this card is problematic you need to ban Treasure Cruise first. If you do I will tell you why its wrong.


Entomb[No WL]: I would love to see that card in the format but it would generate even more T2 wins that we already have enough of. Yes I am fan of LftL, of reanimator as a niche deck and so
on but I fear it would enable too many broken scenarios instead of cute things (like you want to have a fluffy pet but get a crocodile instead).

Stoneforge Mystic [Unban]: We need to unban that card. We have all the tools to handle it. We got so many flexible cards which enable a lot of decks to handle the sfm itself or the skull
and the powerlevel is not even close to a lot of other cards we have in the format right now and they dont even allow interaction. I can see that many decks would implement it
as an autoinclude. So what? We already have a creature driven meta and have so many high quality cards why stop here?

Gifts Ungiven [WL]: I was in favor of unbanning it but tbh in the current state of the meta I dont want another easy splashable value/game closing generating card. Storm and Artifacts would
love to get their hands on this card. It would have a lot of sweet value midrange applications but it would also allow the busted decks doing even more busted things. So not decided until
we weaken Artifacts and Storm.

Skullclamp [No Unban No WL] hahahahahaha.NO.

Tolarian Academy [Ban³]: I said it many many times. This card is very unhealthy for our format not just because of Eggs, which kind of doesnt exist since no one is playing it but because of
the Artifact combo deck. This card doesnt allow interaction (yes..wasteland..sure I am interested to see how you are getting your wasteland in response to playing the Academy and creating
a billion mana and even if so...the only option you have is the one (maybe two) card out of the deck in the right moment+ hoping your opponent doesnt play the academy just in the turn hes going
off and can on top of it even get it back with crucible/ywill).

So yea it fits pretty much the whole rules breaking theme I am speaking off. Getting artifacts in play before t4 (which is a generous estimation) is
not difficult, having multiple ways to untap it is also very easy and difficult to prevent (a lot of cheap tutor cards for lands). As an opponent you are constantly challenged to have answers and this card destroys everything cute you ever imagined in HL. You need to interact with your opponent from turn 1 have your specific answers also have a clock, A FAST clock and lose in the meantime to 75% of the field with your specialized hate cards. If you only have two types of decks in the meta, the deck which is the boogeyman and the decks who can beat that, you have a very bad meta especially without
any sideboard (no I am not in favor of a sideboard in HL). So I could write days and days about how broken that card is. I encountered it, I played with it, it fits the definition
of fast mana (maybe IT IS the definition of fast mana)its even restricted in Vintage (strong indicator for its powerlevel) and its hard to interact with. So yea...we need to get rid of it. asap.

Yawgmoths Will [Ban]: I voted for the unbann back in the day. I was again very naive to think it would give some niche decks some sweet applications. It didnt. No one played
that card in BG-something or Grixis Artifacts or WB Pox or whatever. NO it wasnt played at all until Storm and Artifacts embraced the full brokeness of the card. Especially in combination
with Fastbond it showed its power. This card is an enabler for all the busted things happening and we could ban a lot of other cards to make this card less broken, but since no one ever played it
outside of the busted decks I dont see any reason to have it in the format.

Mishras Workshop [NO Ban]: If pricetags ever become a critera for our bannings this card needs to be banned. I wouldnt miss it but I dont see its brokeness since I like it when
very narrow strategies get their reward. But again I think of staxx for instance which was never opressing or anything but right now only the Comboartifact deck uses this card but its not even that important. So kind of neutral.

All Draw 7 Spells [No Ban]: I can see banning them to weaken artifacts. But why would we ban so many cards when all the problems would be solved by banning one card. So a clear no
also I am eager to see the day where a RDW players plays a wheel of fortune and just destroys me with the new drawn cards. Also High tide.

Tainted Pact [No Ban]: I just love seeing people losing because they are too greedy with tainted pact. So no. I kind of like the design of the card and this is one of the things
which make Hl such a great format. Playing cards no other format plays because you need to or because you want to. The powerlevel is in my eyes just fine and the deck which plays it
(4c blood) will not suffer by losing it, if that would be the idea behind a ban.

I am not sure if this wall of reason (pun intended) isnt already enough so I will stop here and dont discuss the other candidates for watchlist entries.

MMD

#8
Dear Council,

Thanks for the information which is highly appreciated (I think by every Highlander player).

Based on your statements I have a couple of questions and would appreciate to receive answers for:

Sensei Divining Top

Is the card itself or perhaps the unable player/deck builder behind the real problem?

My opinion: I think too many players harm themselves by putting not enough win options in their control deck and tinker too much with the SDT in play without a good plan behind this action and the "able players" should in most of the cases not cause the given problem for their own sake. SDT ist just another (perhaps the most relevant) problem for an "unable" control deck player/deckbuilder, not the only one.

How have you measured the effect of the card to decide about the ban and how will you measure if it´s time to unban it again?

My opinion: not possible = no good reason to ban and therefore: good bye SDT forever

Fetchlands

A lot of relevant and clever things are said about a ban of the Fetchland cycle in these detailed topics: http://www.magicplayer.org/forum/index.php?topic=1186.0 and http://www.magicplayer.org/forum/index.php?topic=583.0

I have to wonder that there is nearly no statement (or in best case action plan) from the council about that (The topic started +5years ago).  

Do you think this topic is stupid and should be disregarded and if so why?

My opinion: Banning the Fetchland cycle is theoretically a very good approach to improve our format but needs to be evaluated and tested because of the drastic effect it would have. Tinkering to offer an optional online tournament is not what I have expected as adequate statement and sufficient action plan. What about to plan a big tournament with good price support, so all players are eager to test and participate? I would be happy to join but I am unable to organize it . Perhaps crowdfunding might be a tool if no organizer can be foun.

Imperial Seal

What is the reason the Council refuses to put Imperial Seal on the unban watchlist?


My opinion: This card facilitates consistency and focus which are your non-banning arguments for the stronger Mystical Tutor. Control usually does not play Personal Tutor and Good Stuff usually even does not play Worldly Tutor, so I would not accept the reason that Seal will go into every deck which can pay the casting cost. Imperial Seal will be a niche application card for sure.

So when availability and/or price tag is the reason you have to ban the following cards as well:

Mishra´s Workshop
The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
Bazaar of Baghdad
Candelabra of Tawnos
Grim Tutor
Timetwister
(even Juzam Djinn and Chains of Mephistopheles)

Gaea´s Cradle (surprise, surprise)

Why is Gaea´s Cradle completely disregarded when fast mana is a problem and green creatures get better with every edition?

My opinion: Even Gaea´s Cradle is not a visible problem today it can become one very fast. The brokenness of this card should be valued with a watch list nomination.

If someone is interested, my personal vote for today  ;):

Ban: Tolarian Academy (fast Mana without possible interaction from the opponent), Fetchlands (good stuff problem which will grow with every edition, time issue, new multicolored lands with every edition and IMO already enough of these are already available for a stable 3C mana base)

Ban Watchlist (Usually too broken for this format but currently helping to create a more diverse meta, random order ): Mana Drain, Demonic Tutor, Oath of Druids, Tainted Pact, Mystical Tutor, Fastbond,  Yawgmoth´s Will, Mishra´s Workshop, Treasure Cruise, Dig Through Time, Gaea´s Cradle

Unban Watchlist: Stoneforge Mystic (not broken enough to be banned but fueling Good Stuff too much), Imperial Seal (helps deck diversity and focus)

Unban: Sensei Divining Top (given reason not valid/authoritative, Fetchland ban would counteract Council´s argument)

Cards I am unsure to ban/unban either: Entomb, Gifts Ungiven, Natural Order, Umezawa´s Jitte


Final note:

Publishing votes (before implementing something) will cause reactions from the community. This can only help the council to make the best possible decision for the format and to establish understanding for the community.

However, the banning issue is not the main issue - it´s the lacking centralized and up-to-date communication and marketing (homepage, forum, etc.)



Keep the good work up! You are doing an invidious but needful job for all of us!
Feel free to browse through my MKM account:

http://www.magickartenmarkt.de/index.php?mainPage=showSellerChart&idInfoUser=13199

I also have a huge amount of chinese and japanese foil HL staples not listed yet,  which I would like to downgrade to english foil. Just let me know!

Maqi

#9
Hi! I will try to answer your questions. Bear in mind though, that this is my response and not the cumulated or condensed opinion of the council. Although I will recap some of the arguments made during our discussions.

@SDT: I admit that through inexperience, more time to use top is consumed than should be. But it is also true, that even a proficient user will use inadequately more time through this card than through basically all other cards. Don't forget that it is strategically correct to spin the top after a myriad of different game actions. For example, EOT spin top (searching for an action spell, tapping out of countermana), opponent plays a flash creature, spin top again to find a solution. Untap. Draw the solution, play it. Spin again to put the action card back on top. Tap SDT. Draw and play the card. Next turn draw SDT, replay it and start spinning again...
You can do this game procedures fast but it will take a lot of time anyway. Even in proficient hands.

We gathered statistical data of some recent big tournaments and identified, that (iirc) in all* (!) games which ended in an unintentional draw at least one of the decklists contained top. The other way around, games beteeen decks which didn't contain top, never ended in a draw.

So, we are aware of the statistical value this approach has (not knowing whether top was in play actually, the fact that control decks play slower than others even without top etc.). The direction in which this data points is clear though.

This would basically also be the 'door back in' for SDT. If our analysis shows that unintentional draws don't drop at all, this would hint at the fact that top wasn't the major cause. Also a sharp drop in the viability of U(x) Control could lead to an unban of SDT.

(To be continued)

*I can't remember the statistics in detail. The data wasn't that clean i've been told. The direction was clear though, which was that playing SDT goes along with unintentional draws.

@Fetchlands: I'm very much against a fetchland ban. For me, it goes too much against the nature of HL as an eternal format. I understand where they're problematic, though. Nevertheless, fetchlands are also kind of cool. Like, they protect from LD, they fuel delve, they let you pre-scan your deck before tutoring. They enable landfall, have nice synergies with cards like Courser of Kruphix and Brainstorm, protect against fatesealing Jaces, grow Goyfs, make Delirium achievable, let LftL not be dead most of the time etc.

All those little things, to me, add up and make for an actually very enjoyable cycle of lands. The loss of those sweet applications is something proponents of a fetchland ban don't seem to fully take in account.

@Imperial Seal: First, I think the card is dangerous because it is so good in combo decks (enabling t2 Oath or t2 Hermit Druid for example).

Furthermore, the price tag is super gross. That is of course also true for cards like tTaPV, Bazaar and Workshop. Aside from all other problems with those candidates however, they at least provide something unique to gameplay. Like, they really shape a game of magic and let you design around them. They are somewhat iconic for our format and people could save money and buy them over the years.

Seal on the other hand is 'just a tutor'. Its effect really isn't unique or enriching. I don't see what positive we add by unbanning this. It would basically just lead to pricier decks, more uninteractive broken stuff and unhappy players. Add to that the frustrating feeling of having to play a supoptimal deck because you don't own seal.

Now imagine we would ban the card again after one season. Now those 300+€ you invested are basically gone for a while because the demand for the card is very low.

@Gaea's Cradle: My definition of fast mana is different apparently. Moxen, Rituals, Sol Ring etc. Those cards provide a mana boost without setup beginning from t1. I obviously agree on the brokenness of Cradle (and Academy). Both cards require setup though which makes them per se not broken in my book.

Dr. Opossum

#10
Following the brave example of my colleagues, I will also write my votings about the current season. Since I'm known in the Council for my detailed statements and want to present my wall of text enjoyable, I will divide the list in:

Part 1: Cards, that already were on the Watch List and which were talked about a banning/ unbanning
Part 2: Cards that didn't had a place on the Watch List and were added/ removed from it.

Short reminder: As you can read in the FAQ, a single card has to go through the Watch List (WL) to be reviewed for a banning or unbanning.  With that we want enable the players to prepare themselves for the upcoming bannings/ unbannings in a better way. For all cards on the Watch List have to be assumed that these could be banned or unbanned in the following season. Therefore, the list is also divided like here: http://www.highlandermagic.info/index.php?id=watchlist


Part 1


Natural Order (Ban, Keep on WL):



Here my post about it:

Quote
I don't think we look like "fools", if we revise our opinion on Natural Order and take the card out of the format. Actually I find it more irresponsible to leave a card unbanned just because of this reason. Quite the reverse: with this we show reflection capabilities and admit that we also do errors.
I not only feel confirmed in my opinion on this card, but also encouraged. The last month have led to one-sided games and always same processes (NO -> Primeval Titan -> Dark Depths + Thespian's Stage or NO -> Craterhoof Behemoth).
-> ban (keep on Watchlist)

I never was a fan of this card. However, I think it is important that we as the Council made the decision, despite the short legality period, to take it out of the format and could stand behind this decision. Overall our official announcement brings my thoughts on the spot.


Sensei's Divining Top (No Ban/ Keep on WL):

Especially SDT was heavily discussed by us. Since my answers in the Council forum were very detailed, I leave them this way:

Quote
SDT: It's still my opinion, that SDT is totally inconspicuous and the main problem lies in the players, who are not able to estimate slowplay and remind. Also the current attempts to get hints from the data of the bigger tournaments, absolutely do not convince me. I would not even put this card on the Watch list, but voted for Watch list placement because of the feedback of the community.

Quote
Slow Play/ SDT:
Slow play is indeed not something that only happens to bad players. Quite the reverse. I warned several pro players for slow play. My argument doesn't concern the play skill of the players, but their ability to call a judge for a felt slow play of the opponent. Suspicion of a slow play is a legitimate call, because it collides with the IPG. To take this call serious and to check is the task of a judge. And even if it does not come to a warning, presence of a judge leads to faster play. For this reason, judges sitting beside the open tables as part of the end of round procedure when timeout is called and primary on the tables with extra time. One thing I didn't take care of is, that not every TO set up enough judges for their tournament and there are often no judges on weekly small store tournaments. Maybe I just think too utopian in this case.  :\

However, I think that a time argument doesn't balance out the points against a ban.
Top is one of the few possibilities to also get some library manipulation in other colors than blue.
Top enables some combos.
Top is not excessively strong.
The ability is bound to mana.
I also witnessed your described example. Even more than once. But it only happens in a hand full of games.
Because first Top has to be in the game.
Because for that scenario at least one Fetchland has to be in the game.
Because Top has to be actually activated.
Because the top cards have to be relevant for the game, to need a longer thinking process. etc.
Top can lead to a time problem. Top not always leads to a time problem. Shahrazad leads always to a time problem. Here I more likely accept this argument.

Quote
Extended:
60 cards
depending on the list 3 – 4 Tops
with a build upon a specific deck plan (CounterTop/ Tog/ etc with 3 additional Trinket Mages or 4 Confis or 10 mil. Card draws or Fetchlands)

For me the relevant paragraph is this one:
"Ultimately Top 8s throughout the season were littered with the one-cost artifact either in conjunction with Counterbalance to lock opponents out of games, Trinket Mage to be found reliably, or (and usually in addition to) Onslaught's sac-lands to allow players to shuffle away cards they didn't wish to draw while peeking at a fresh set of three cards. Such a pervasive performance during a single season created a different problem as well: it made tournaments take too much time."

-> reasons for banning:
overall presence (CounterTop 2007 most frequent main or side plan)
deck construction always on Counterbalance-Top synergy (deck is built around this synergy)
consequential board presence of this synergy (synergy shows constant board presence -> synergy parts are 4 times in the deck each + searcher)
Fetchlands as clear game plan to support the synergy (Fetchlands are not primarily used to fix mana, but to support the synergy)
time argument is the result, not the actual problem (the synergy)

Highlander:
100 cards
1 Top
not more than side plan in the deck / deck is not built around Top/ Top rarely is essential for the deck plan
few tutors, that only have the purpose "find Top" in the deck
Fetchlands have primarily the function to fix mana and only secondary to manipulate the library (especially based on SDT)
-> no ban (keep on Watch list)

Even if I obviously was against a ban of this card, the reception of the community is noticeable. Several people responded positively about this. I stand behind the result, that we have produced. If rounds will finish faster because of this or not remains to be seen. But this could be evaluated most rapidly and effectively by banning this card.
Additionally, I would like to note, that cards that are on the banned list, are not deleted from our minds nor the card data base. They have the possibility to find a way back into the format someday as well.


Demonic Tutor (Ban, Keep on WL):

I struggled with this decision. Also for me Demonic Tutor is a card, that I developed a love for and that I really like to play. My thoughts about it:

Quote
* Each of your arguments against Demonic Tutor, is a reason for it in my opinion.
Demonic Tutor is not broken? Demonic Tutor is the strongest card in the whole format, because it is EVERY card in the format. With Demonic you draw JTMS, Wasteland, removal of choice etc at the same time.
* It is format defining? It increases the count of EVERY of your cards by 1. (If the "iconic"-argument really has any relevance, I like to point out the question what the main thought of "Highlander" and the slogan "There can be only one" is.) It is the ONLY card, that is played regarding to its color in 100% of the decks. Means: every deck, which can potentially play black, plays Demonic Tutor. Even worse: because of its mana cost it is easily splashable, so that players play black only because of this card. A card that so obviously belongs in the deck and don't want to be missed so badly, is of course felt as format defining.
* Yes, 4C Blood can get over it most easily. But the reason for this lies in the archetype Goodstuff, where every card should be as flexible as possible. Anyway, also in this deck it is the strongest card. The ban will have a bigger impact on Combo. Classical Combo decks consist of combo pieces and searchers (Cantrips, Tutors, Draws). But this gives us completely new possibilities at the same time. An example of the Canadian ban philosophy: There are a lot of overlap with our list. But cards that we relative clearly and consequently define as virtually un-unbannable, only have a few points. Most  points have the Tutors. Because they make a deck constant. They make Combos unfair, since they increase the chances for them to occur and/or make them possible. The problem doesn't HAVE to be the Combo piece, but the game with probabilities. With the removal of the most flexible Tutors a more daring behavior with the Banned list is possible.
* I agree, that Demonic Tutor needs a certain skill level, but in my opinion the players of the format are underrated. As soon as I know the deck list, I also know what I have to search for. Whether it is the missing combo piece, the removal against the obvious thread or a board advantage. The really skillful situations are rare. The card is and stays unsurpassable in flexibility by far.

I tried to view the card detached from my personal preferences. Therefore the point "Iconic Card" hardly weighted anything. Highlander lives by diversity. The idea behind it was to give a fairly large deck the lowest possible amount of cards.
To aim for this thought, theoretically enables the Council a liberal handling with the Banned and Watch List. Combo decks have a hard time in every formate, since the ban against them is efficient and the unban partially has unpredictable impacts. Other archetypes have this problem to a lesser extent. By banning of the strongest tutors in the format, constancy would be taken away from the Combo decks (or the speed, because they have to fall back on more mana intensive tutors), but at least they stay in the format. Like already stated in the statement about its Watch List position, it therefore is not only problem solver, but also the cause of problems.

Even if every now and then Demonic Tutor "only" searches a land, its use is strongly determined by the deck. The TPS player will try to keep it until the bitter end for its actual purpose. Thomas Stier impressively showed us in the coverage videos, how fast 4C Blood can mutate with Demonic to a control land destruction machine ^^. That it can be removal, landdrop, combo piece etc at the same time, therefore does not deny its power in my eyes.

In the last weeks I talked to different people from different regions about Demonic Tutor. I'm aware that the iconic argument has more relevance for many players than for me. Therefore if the feedback for keeping the card in the format is similar strong from players from other regions, I'm willing to think about my vote. None of us is interested to make the whole community unhappy. However, for now I stand behind my ban.


Dig Through Time (No Ban, Keep on WL):

My reasons for the placement of Dig Through Time and Treasure Cruise on the Watch List:

Quote
Watch list unlike Banned list. With my addings I follow the opinion, that a card earned a place on the Watch list, if multiple persons feel the card as damaging/ unpleasant/ frustrating. Even if I would not ban a some of these cards at any time, I feel committed as a council member to give them special attention and observation, because of the wish of the community. Of course it is subjective when the point "multiple persons" triggers. For me it is dependent on the reactions in the forum, in the groups of social networks and in talks with the players. The following cards fulfilled the criteria for a position on the Watch list for me (aka Yes):

Treasure Cruise
True-Name Nemesis
Yawgmoth's Will
Mana Drain

Quote
It really surprises me how this card is underrated. UU Instant Look deep, draw 2 and manipulate/ know the position of 5 cards of your library? Independent of this I also think Treasure Cruise is a bit more frustrating and questionable than Dig. My opinion on the cards copied from the last thread:
Quote
Dig Through Time/ Treasure Cruise: There are good reasons why Dig AND Cruise are banned in Modern and Legacy and why they are restricted in Vintage. I say Yes to Dig Through Time, but not INSTEAD of Cruise, but in addition. In fact I think Cruise is more problematic in Highlander. Dig gives more information to the player, but not in the same extent like in 60-Cards-formats (+ each card up to 4 times). However Cruise will ALWAYS felt frustrating for the opponent, because the caster fills up his resources for one mana after playing all his hand cards.
Anyway I currently rather tending to an unban and accept this card as "toy for blue" or jump on the variance-train, which stays on the rails with DTT to some extent.
-> no ban (keep on Watchlist)

Even if I would not ban Dig Through Time (especially at the current popularity of 4C Blood), I think its placement and therefore its close observation and discussion of these cards is right and important. Also in the future cards will appear on the Watch List, which maybe only a part of the community feels as "too strong". I think our task as Council is also to follow up these concerns.


Mana Drain (Abstention, Keep on WL):

Mana Drain is one of my trouble child. I will start again with a quote:

Quote
The only reason not to put Mana Drain into a blue deck is its availability. Yes, Mana Drain is beside Counterspell the only appreciable counter for 2 Mana. No, Mana Drain is NOT the only counter beside Counterspell for 2 Mana. I understand, that it feels awkward, not to be able to play Mana Drain anymore and instead have to fall back on Cancel, Hinder, Logic Knot, Forbid etc. This is mostly because of the absurd advantage and therefore existing gap between Drain and counter xy.
Drain is harmful. Obviously you also need a spell to use the mana. The deck builder, that don't have use for UUX mana in his/ her blue deck, definitely done something wrong. Even if detractors don't like to see this card on the Banned list, but it should have his rightfully place on the Watch list.

It is important to understand, that Mana Drain in the worst case is still a Counterspell. Normally Mana Drain precisely not inevitably need an expensive spell to create a clear advantage. Even a 3 mana spell provides, beside the fact to just
thwarted the opponents turn, an additional game advantage. Should we decide against fast mana in general, Mana Drain cannot be ignored in any case.

However, I've decided for an abstention. Reason for this was beside the 4C Blood dominance, my views on the tutors in the format. Because even here Mana Drain would be less conspicuous without Demonic or Mystical Tutor support. A weakening of Control decks on all fronts and with a missing guaranty to really ban the especially flexible tutors, I don't think that banning Drain at the moment is a good idea.


Oath of Druids (No Ban, Keep on WL):

Oath of Druids is a card, where we don't have to argue about its potential. It not only pushes Combo decks, but also has an own deck type. Unfortunately (or fortunately, if you want to keep the card in the format) it doesn't show the performance in the last season, that it makes it questionable for me. Also elsewhere Oath appears inconspicuous at the moment. Therefore I decided against the ban and for further observation.


Mystical Tutor (Ban, Keep on WL):

And here we already have the next tutor. Actually I never thought the "Miracle" argument was convincingly enough. Convincingly for me is the combination of speed, mana costs and flexibility. Yes, the ban weakens Control decks. But he also weakens all blue based Tempo, Combo and Midrange decks. However, it will not kill any of these decks or makes them unplayable. Additionally these decks could fall back on numerous alternatives: Personal Tutor, Merchant Scroll, Intuition, Mystical Teachings, ...
The advantages of Mystical at a glance:

Quote
We have decided to put Mystical Tutor on the Watch list.
Each legal Tutor in the format has a distinct search and/ or timing restriction. However, Mystical Tutor is barely disadvantaged in many aspects.
- Mystical Tutor is an auto-include in nearly all Combo decks, which play blue. It searches directly for the needed Combo part or enables/ secures the Combo turn by searching for e.g. discard or counter backup.
- The color blue does not only have strong protection and support spells (Mana Drain, Force of Will, Intuition, etc.), but also has much easier possibilities to draw the searched card outside of the draw step.
- Mystical Tutor searches much more flexible than his "siblings" Enlightened or Worldly Tutor. Mystical Tutor finds direct answers in form of protection (discard, counter) and removal (mass or spot removal for all permanent card types), but also indirect answers (other tutors).
- Mystical Tutor searches card types, with which could only be interacted on the stack and therefore are much more difficult to be prevented.
- Mystical Tutor is as one-drop or due to his EoT option, mana efficient.
- Mystical Tutor has only the timing restriction for instant spells.
- Mystical Tutor gets more and more options with each new set, like any other tutor too.
-> The potential of this card is unmistakably and therefore should be observed.


Fastbond (Abstention, Keep on WL):

I can't take Fastbond serious in Highlander. The optimal case is countable. Yes, Paul CAN have turn 1x Fastbond, 5x lands and 1x crazy shit. Then it is very absurd and one sided. To ban a card, that have to be on the starting hand (or at least near it) is for me more absurd. For it full potential Fastbond needs the 3 typical Combo pieces or a very early board presence. Players of this card often describe it as "nice to have" instead of "overpowered". They always refer here to the consistence via tutors. Additionally, the card is unspectacular without the corresponding pieces, when drawn later.

The main problem of the card is the deck around it. It is 5C Artifact Combo. Filled up with ridiculous synergies and tutors, that makes the synergies constant and present.
However, the question for me is: Why is this deck only played in Berlin and Erfurt (by maximal 4 players, 3 of them irregularly)? Why does this deck only perform on 8-man tournaments in Berlin, but not on bigger or weekly events in other places? Why is it completely inconspicuous in other lands and parts of Germany, concerning its occurrence and performance?

I orientated my rating of this card particularly on the overall community. Especially characteristic in my opinion was this conversation:
http://www.magicplayer.org/forum/index.php?topic=584.msg12367#msg12367 that was initiated by the user TobiR.

However, I noticed the sad faces of the community members here and the survey results on the last MGM. I'm aware, that Fastbond COULD lead to very frustrating games.

Quote
It was important for me to know why Berlin and surrounding condemn this card.
Surprisingly the evaluation was similar. The majority has indeed granted, that Fastbond rarely appears and also rarely overperforms on tournaments. The problem with this card lies in the felt unfairness and the lack of interaction. The players almost uniformly mentioned that IF it comes to the situation, it just felt disproportionately unfair to lose against this card. Independently of the outcome of the match. The question is how high we value this and let it have an influence on the banning thoughts.

Even if this aspect couldn't force a "Ban" from me, it affected my decision. Therefore I chose abstention and hope of more feedback from the community.



Congratulations! You successfully fought through 3369 words. :)

Part 2 and a few more words to MMD on Sunday.

<3

Maqi

Added content to my post further above.

Dr. Opossum

Following cards were discussed, whether they get a place on the Watch List and will be discussed and observed more intense. The initial question "To the Watch List?" is answered by me in brackets. Currently there are more candidates on the list that you are used to. I represent the view that the Watch List doesn't need a hard limit, for a long while. Therefore, I also gave my vote to candidates for a placement on the Watch List, which I might not give my Ban/ Unban, but whose observation and discussion was wished by a part of the community. I thank you for your input!


Part 2


Stoneforge Mystic (Yes):

I think this card is strongly underrated. Yes, it is one of the weakest cards on the current Banned List. However, there will be always a weakest card on the Banned List. The reason for the ban was not its state "overpowered", but the always same play sequences, like they occur with e.g. Natural Order. The card was disproportionately overpresent. Currently it benefits exactly these decks, that appear very often anyway. All Midrange decks (4C Blood, Jeskai, UW, Abzan, Esper, ...) welcome this card with open arms. A tutor for artifacts on legs and "Make your equipment "uncounterable""-feeling. Still I gave it my vote for the Watch List.

Quote
Stoneforge Mystic
The wish after this card by the community is meanwhile so clear, that I almost find it impudently to not at least put it on the Watchlist. I understand the arguments for and against it, but after such an extensive feedback from Maintal as well as from Berlin and surrounding, we maybe should withdraw our views to a certain scale. Especially since we give a positive signal and show that 8 persons not completely overrule the opinion of the community.

-> Watchlist

However, I don't only condemn this card. Especially BECAUSE it will find a place in many decks after an unban and with it the played artifacts, on which the players have to adjust. I see a subtle constraint in this card to finally play more artifact removal and therefore put some stones in the way of 5 Color Artifact Control at the same time. ;)
How well this would work can only be shown by an unban.


Gifts Ungiven (No):

A card of whose unban I'm mostly afraid of. Many compare it to Intuition. So I will connect here. Intuition classically searches for a specific card and 2 Witness effects (alternative 3 cards with the same or a very similar effect). Gifts allows me one more specific card with the same Witness count, because independent of what combination my opponent gives to me, the direct access to 2 wish cards are enabled. With increasing importance of the graveyard, Gifts becomes rapidly a 4-card-tutor. It is not only able to find the missing combo piece, but the whole combo. This additionally easily splashable instant tutor, shouldn't be in the format in my opinion and therefore got a clear No here.

Since I also don't think that a meta change would change this opinion and in case of potential problems for the archetypes Control and Combo (apart from that these problems are none existing currently) I would think about other cards first, I completely refrain from placing it on the Watch List. In no universe I would call Gifts Ungiven a "fair tutor".


Tolarian Academy (Yes):

Tolarian Academy has found is place in the meta after the unban. Currently mainly artifact based Combo and Control lists use the advantages of Academy - these decks, that had influence on the statements of many other cards. In my opinion it is disproportionately to ban half of the deck, even if this deck is a problem in the meta. Anyway, I agree on the arguments, that say that Academy leads to very unbalanced matches, is less interactive and has a high potential. For this reason and on basis of the feedback I got from several players from the community, this card has earned a placement on the Watch List. Whether I really want to ban it, I would like to leave this undecided here and therefore would like to give intense observation to Tolarian Academy, too.


Mishra's Workshop (No):

The arguments against this card primarily amount to "price" and "powerlevel". Until now only one card was banned because of its high price and the connected unavailability. This card is "Imperial Seal". And Imperial Seal is another black tutor. Even if it maybe doesn't have the power of its cheaper and more commonly printed siblings, it still is a card that much more players could need and gives an advantage to those who can invest more money into Highlander. For Mishra's Workshop this is not true to the same extend. This card needs a shell of many many artifacts and therefore its function is much more limited than a much more flexible tutor.

But also its powerlevel is within bounds in my opinion. Yes, it can lead to surprising plays, if I have it on my starting hand with a corresponding artifact. And yes, if this artifact is Winterorb or Trinisphere, the motivation of the opponent might drop. But presumably I don't want to draw it after turn 4. Because then a working artifact deck should have a stable board position. A card that I can only use and exploit in such a small timeframe and additionally is only played barely or not at all, I don't want to give my Ban to. Therefore I voted with No for a placing on the Watch List.


Yawgmoth's Will (Yes):

Until now only Storm and Artifact Combo lists use the potential of Yawgmoth's Will sufficiently. These decks are strongly built around graveyard synergies. Nevertheless, I think it is surprising, that Will isn't played by many other decks, than it is the case at the moment. Because also in Midrange and Control lists it is a powerful and flexible Witness effect.

Even if in my opinion the numerous and unerring possibilities to find this card is the main problem, Will is a very powerful card, that earned a place on the Watch List. Independent of that it barely occur in current lists, a majority of the community evaluating it as inconspicuous or whether I want to ban it or not, I would like to observe Will.


Tainted Pact (Yes):

And here we are with the next tutor, that in my opinion is problematic. Many players have situations in mind, where the opponent exile until the last card on their search for a specific card or reveal a second card with the same name and end the search process. However, I think in competitive play these situations are exceptions.

Quote
I can only support this.
Just last Wednesday I realized again how strong Tainted Pact is. Yes, you exile everything until you found what you are looking for. But in nearly every case you look for a certain genre of answers, instead of a specific single card or the missing win piece. That the card in addition is an instant, makes it even more ridiculous. Especially since we have other similar strong tutors in the format (which doesn't get better with Gifts Ungiven btw...). What say the other members about this card(s)?

Here it is already. In many cases you search for a specific genre, the final direct damage, a removal for the annoying permanent, a big creature for board advantage, etc. And it does this with instant speed. Therefore, Tainted Pact is not only good in specific deck lists, but in all lists that can get on with few identically named cards (obviously multicolor).
Anyway, the mentioned limitations are very well notable and legit arguments of the supporters of this card. I would like to discuss this card with my colleagues more intensely.



@MMD: As I see Maqi already answered your questions comprehensively. :)

One supplementing:

QuoteDo you think this topic is stupid and should be disregarded and if so why?

Even if I also think that the cut of the Fetchlands would have a too big impact on the format, we had to take on the topic more in detail and more intense. No, the topic is of course not stupid. We are thankful for every input and every feedback from the community about the cards. Also the Fetchlands have a part in our considerations, but as Vazdru already said, there probably aren't that many supporters of a ban.


Greetings and thanks for reading!

Vazdru

#13
how I voted and why (in shortform)

ban:
Mystical Tutor
Mana Drain
Demonic Tutor
Dig Through Time

unban:
Imperial Seal

First of all I guess the unban was necessary because it seemed quite unsystematical.
Imperial Seal is legal in some other formats and doesn't see any play outside combodecks. The card is worse than on first sight (at least my impression of over 1000 Duel-Commander games, where this card is legal). That T1 Seal into a brutal T2 is possible but not a common scenario. Seal can be a akward midgame draw like some other drawback tutors as well. The price-tag -if this ever have been a criteria- isn't a reason to keep that card on banned-list.

But I don't wanna raise power level of our format more and more. So I voted that way to get at least one Tutor cutted. There were two tutors on watchlist so they get my vote. Easy thing.

Aims:
1) Lower Powerlevel in general.
2) No add-on of further tutors but logical exchangement Mystical or Demonic Tutor for Imperial Seal.
3) And hereby not make combo decks better than they already are - imo they are already quite good but not dominating (esp. Scapeshift / Artifact-Combo / BUG-Oath-Combo)


Futhermore cards like Dig Through Time and Mana Drain are banned in other formats for good reasons. I guess it is time to cut some overpowered cards from the format and those were my two favorites to do that.

Aims:
1) Lower Powerlevel in general.
2) Lower Powerlevel of blue-based decks, which doesn't seem wrong to me with regard to results of Izzet, Ub-Wizards, Jeskai, Esper, UB-Delve in recent tournaments.
3) Cut of some busted and overpowered cards from the format. The banned-list was never that short, it isn't necessarily the right development to keep the banned-list as short as possible if we want to original spirit of Highlander alive.


Far below the earth
Where the demons hunt the souls of those that sleep
In the city of the Vazdru and the Drin
Where the black flame burns inside the palace fountain.

Maqi

#14

   Blood Moon      ban         
   Back to Basics      ban         
   Dig Through Time      ban         
   Mana Drain      ban         
   Mystical Tutor      ban         
                  
   Oath of Druids      no ban         
   Stoneforge Mystic      no ban         
   Demonic Tutor      no ban      Watchlist   
   Tainted Pact      no ban         
   Tolarian Academy      no ban      Watchlist   
   Treasure Cruise      no ban      Watchlist   
   Grindstone      no ban         
   Yawgmoth's Will      no ban         
                  
   Birthing Pod      unban         
   Entomb      unban         
   Imperial Seal      unban         
                  
The Izzet-Situation
- Izzet is in my opinion (slightly) the best deck in the format. At the same time Izzet offers a kind of gameplay which many players deem unfun.
- The only rival to Izzet (measured in tournament wins) is RDW.
- Emperion-Izzet beats RDW.
- Izzet's best and most annoying weapons are Blood Moon, Back to Basics and (Mystical Tutor into) Ruination. These play patterns suppress a large amount of otherwise possible decks that require some form of elaborate setup or have to bridge across several colors in order to execute their gameplan.
- Non-basic hate together with cheap and efficient countermagic exert a harsh and restricting doorman function for what is possible in the current metagame.
- The deck is supplemented by some of the most powerful spells in the format: Treasure Cruise, Dig Through Time, Mana Drain
- Results have shown that "decks with a plan" do not play a meaningful role in the format. To open the door for them, Izzet needs to be weakened.

The Blue-Situation (within the Izzet-Situation)
- Besides Izzet and RDW, tournaments are mostly being won by Ub-Wizards, Esper Control, UB-Control, UW-Control and the like.
- One reason for this is, they play mostly one color (Blue) and splash for a second, thereby being mostly safe against Izzet's non-basic hate angle of attack. Note that non-Blue two-color decks are mostly bad. An Izzet dominated metagame therefore becomes a U(r) vs. U(x) metagame with RDW thrown in for good measure and other decks resting at the sidelines.
- In comparison to other colors, Blue has stronger and more broken cards. Something has to go in order to level the playing field.

Conclusions
- Oppressive non-basic hate has to be banned.
- Some Blue power has to be banned.
- Tutoring options for "decks with a plan" have to be unbanned.
- Birthing Pod can be unbanned in order to counter blue dominance but has to be monitored closely.
- The Mystical Tutor ban will also weaken "decks with a plan" but the simultaneous unban of Entomb and Imperial Seal is a net gain for them. This trade-off can be seen as a hedge. Also, Mystical Tutor is a critical linchpin card for Izzet. Without it, the Madcap Experiment into Platinum Emperion plan seems to be gone for good and Ruination won't be ending games as often as is currently the case.
- "Decks with a plan" - or Combo decks if you like - will become relatively better in a world which would be a little less blue. These decks usually have a good matchup vs. non-interactive decks like RDW. This way, RDW will have more predators and won't reign supreme.

Things are more complicated than what can be expressed in the above paragraphs. Although I stand by the points I made, I want to stress that there are more deliberate reflections which went into my voting. I also did some testing with Entomb-powered Reanimator builds beforehand. The games I played reinforced my notion that Entomb is not too broken for our format as it stands right now.