5c with Alara

[Georg B]

Hi, I just added some Alara cards to my 5c Control.deck and I want to know what you think about it.

My List how it is now:

// Lands
    1 [SH] Volrath's Stronghold
    1 [RAV] Watery Grave
    1 [DIS] Breeding Pool
    1 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
    1 [ON] Windswept Heath
    1 [ON] Polluted Delta
    1 [ON] Lonely Sandbar
    1 [DK] Maze of Ith
    1 [LG] Karakas
    1 [TSP] Flagstones of Trokair
    1 [JU] Krosan Verge
    1 [TE] Wasteland
    1 [JU] Nantuko Monastery
    1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
    1 [FUT] Tolaria West
    1 [ON] Secluded Steppe
    1 [ON] Flooded Strand
    1 [R] Bayou
    1 [ON] Wooded Foothills
    1 [R] Volcanic Island
    1 [R] Badlands
    1 [R] Tropical Island
    1 [R] Plateau
    1 [R] Savannah
    1 [R] Scrubland
    1 [R] Taiga
    1 [R] Tundra
    1 [R] Underground Sea
    1 [CS] Snow-Covered Island
    1 [IA] Snow-Covered Plains
    1 [TE] Reflecting Pool
    1 [ALA] Arcane Sanctum
    1 [ALA] Seaside Citadel
    1 [ALA] Crumbling Necropolis
    1 [ALA] Island (1)
    1 [ALA] Plains (3)
    1 [ALA] Swamp (3)
    1 [ALA] Forest (1)

// Creatures
    1 [ON] Exalted Angel
    1 [FD] Etched Oracle
    1 [TSP] Stuffy Doll
    1 [PS] Flametongue Kavu
    1 [FD] Eternal Witness
    1 [SH] Wall of Blossoms
    1 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
    1 [FD] Trinket Mage
    1 [OD] Shadowmage Infiltrator
    1 [DIS] Court Hussar
    1 [RAV] Loxodon Hierarch
    1 [MR] Solemn Simulacrum
    1 [LRW] Shriekmaw
    1 [LRW] Garruk Wildspeaker
    1 [LRW] Liliana Vess
    1 [LRW] Mulldrifter

// Spells
    1 [R] Wrath of God
    1 [RAV] Remand
    1 [4E] Swords to Plowshares
    1 [TSP] Prismatic Lens
    1 [DIS] Azorius Signet
    1 [AP] Fire/Ice
    1 [RAV] Lightning Helix
    1 [AP] Pernicious Deed
    1 [GP] Mortify
    1 [PLC] Damnation
    1 [AP] Vindicate
    1 [CHK] Gifts Ungiven
    1 [R] Demonic Tutor
    1 [6E] Enlightened Tutor
    1 [R] Regrowth
    1 [TE] Intuition
    1 [OD] Tainted Pact
    1 [RAV] Life from the Loam
    1 [TSP] Mystical Teachings
    1 [IA] Brainstorm
    1 [IN] Fact or Fiction
    1 [RAV] Dimir Signet
    1 [MR] Talisman of Dominance
    1 [MR] Talisman of Progress
    1 [FUT] Coalition Relic
    1 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
    1 [PS] Eladamri's Call
    1 [SC] Guilty Conscience
    1 [VI] Tithe
    1 [PS] Terminate
    1 [IN] Collective Restraint
    1 [LG] Mana Drain
    1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
    1 [LRW] Austere Command
    1 [LRW] Profane Command
    1 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
    1 [OV] Zuran Orb
    1 [LRW] Faerie Trickery
    1 [PS] Dromar's Charm
    1 [MI] Dissipate
    1 [VI] Impulse
    1 [NE] Seal of Cleansing
    1 [WL] Argivian Find
    1 [TSP] Krosan Grip
    1 [ALA] Esper Charm
    1 [ALA] Jund Charm

My latest Changes have been:

-Cephalid Colloseum: because it makes no card advantage and it takes to mutch life. That makes it bad against aggro, and I play not enough "graveyard-cards".

-Barren Moor: 2 Cycle Lands are enough. And I think the black one is the first to cut.

-Hallowed Fountain: I wanted to cut one of the three Shock Duals, and I have lots of white nonbasics (Karakas, Flagstones...). So I think this is the one I have to cut.

+ The three blue Shard-Lands (Arcane Sanctum, Seaside Citadel, Crumbling Necropolis): They minimize the risk of a color screw and they have so nice artworks.


-Lightning Bolt
-Shred Memory
+Jund Charm
The Bolt is good against Aggro, but bad against Control, and the transfigure ability of Shred Memory isn't good enough.
The Charm is a lot more flexible. It is great agains Aggro (mass removel) and a bomb against Control (mass graveyard removel ).

+ Esper Charm: It is just a realy good card. 2 cards for 3 and as an Instant. And it is a removel if it has to be one.

And one chane witch has nothing to do with Alara:
-Hide/Seek
+Krosan Grip
Sure, Hide/Seek is more flexible, but the Grip has so mutch power, that I think it is better.

[pyyhttu]

I've been eyeing your build for some time here to get an overall impression of synergy and strategy the deck is driving and yeah: looks very solid. Especially on the creature front: you've got all the good utility creatures I'd choose myself on 5C-Wins as well. Those critters offer the instant value the deck needs once they hit the game. Only for Venser I'd try to find a spot as it's the only all-around answer to permanents and you already run Karakas, possibly setting up a game winning condition right there.

About the cuts: You sure about the Hallowed Fountain? I know you dire to try the new, cool "comes into play tapped" lands, but once you notice you can't even fetch them, I'd say you switch back to that Hallowed fountain. But do try and report how the new tap lands work for you, I'm not a big fan of them, even in 5C.

Also, is that Zuran Orb necessary for survival against aggro? It does go nicely with Flagstones and Trinket Mage, but what you really fetch everytime with mage against aggro, is Engineered Explosives. I've noticed that if 5C land base is rounded into corner with Zuran Orb, it's all downhill from there. You've lost anyway. I'd replace that Orb with Crop Rotation I see you don't have: it offers more value against other decks and is an instant, surprisive solution to opponent's wasted Wasteland + can fetch you Ith against aggro. Orb in 5C just prolongs your suffering.

And I sign that Krosan Grip: it's real power house in critical situations and usually hits to that annoying silver bullet on the battle field while getting past opponent's counters he/she left in hand: people tend to keep mana open for counters (no shit).

And those new Charms: yeah, I like them, definetely worth trying _if_ manabase supports their CC: they replace Mortifies and Putrefies. Also experiment other charms in case those don't work for your meta, Bant Charm also feels good.

Finally, consider cutting that Seal of Cleansing: I see that you're running Argivian Find but still, I'd go for a solution that can be cast for an instant speed. You should have the time to build your tempo and save mana for the Disenchant/Naturalize. Smart opponents don't feed their game breaking artifacts/enchantments for Seal, but might unknowingly do that if surprised with an EOT Disenchant. (I would evev go as far as playing Orim's Thunder).

[Georg B]

Ill test the new lands and I will report about my achievements. I think I dont need aone more land with basic land types, because I play each dual. Thats enough to fetch.

Hmm, Zuran Orb can be fetched with Tolaria West. So if I make a gifts for Life, Tolaria West, +2 Cycle Lands, I can fetch the combo with Flagstones. And that is realy strong angainst Aggro.
But maybe you are right. What would you add instead? And yould you play Flagstones without the Orb?

I dont Like Crop Rotation (well, I like the card, but not in this deck). It makes card disadvantage and I do not play any broaken lands (like Academy or Tabernacle (I own one Tabernacle, would you add it?)).

The seal is in the deck to have a solution if I have Elightened Tutor in my hand. For the Teachings I have the Grip.

[pyyhttu]

And yould you play Flagstones without the Orb?

If I _had_ to to play Orb, I'd also play Flagstones, yeah. But I'd try Flagstones with Crop Rotation first. Nikolas Labahn's 5C seems to agree, but we both may be wrong here and it just migth be that meta in your area support better that gifts -> Loam, Tolaria West, 2 cycle lands, if you survive long enough. It's pretty nice set up but complicated and "non-elegant" (It's vulnerable to grave hosing).

I dont Like Crop Rotation (well, I like the card, but not in this deck). It makes card disadvantage and I do not play any broaken lands (like Academy or Tabernacle (I own one Tabernacle, would you add it?)).

Tabernacle is an investment card and in my opinion only works *efficiently* in various staxx builds that aim for virtual card advantage and board control. In your build Tabernacle costs tempo in form of land drop (+doesn't produce any mana) so the net gain after that isn't very favorable to you.

I learned this by the hard way: I tried Tabernacle in a slightly modified 5c-oath once, based on that Topel's design found from these board as well.

I had bad experiences of it.

I think I originally added the card just because for nostalgia reasons, I happened to had one, and wanted to use it but didn't really test it in advance. It always cost me a turn when played it, it didn't really do anything, and I mulliganed it away from my starting hand. The deck was something like this.


Edit: In case you do need more tempo and a good target for that EOT Crop Rotation, try Krosan Verge. I know some people dismiss it as a bad card, but I've had good experiences with it.

[Mythrandir]

well, i think the main problem of the shard lands is that they dont have a basic type. so if you happen to play colective restraitn, worldly counsil or evasive action
, these lands seem a little suboptimal to me. Also they cant be fetched via tithe, krosan verge, fetchs....
I also play 5cc (but no combo with stuffy) and tabernacle is quite useful against aggro. specially if u play urborg.

i´d also play with crop rotation, since you are playing stuffy combo (its nice to fetch academy ruins)

another thing, since u play with loads of artifacts why dont u try tezzeret, it can fetch u that stuffy/add mana (with the signets)/be a winning condition.

also 2 cards that i´m testing and loving, is figure of destiny and glen alendra archmage.

just my 2cents.. 1 thing i would like to make my deck more similar to yours is the artifacts mana.. but dont really know where to cut.. =/

edited:dont cut hide/seek. play with + krosan grip (cut out the seal). hide/seek is a very versatil tool.

[Vazdru]

also 2 cards that i´m testing and loving, is figure of destiny and glen alendra archmage.

...

edited:dont cut hide/seek. play with + krosan grip (cut out the seal). hide/seek is a very versatil tool.

I totally agree with Mythrandir.

Glen Elendra Archmage is quite powerful in your deck. Evasion + Card Advantage + Counter-Ability -> in combination with volr. stronghold it's gettin awesome! at least for your opponent.

You need! Hide/Seek to have a better chance to avoid such games like our last one. Hide is strong against Survival as well.

Go and Seek

Life from the Loam while playing vs. control
Price of Progress against Rx
Back to Basics against Ux

and you will feel much better than before 

[Mythrandir]

Go and Seek

Life from the Loam while playing vs. control
Price of Progress against Rx
Back to Basics against Ux

this sums up basically why hide/seek is so powerful.. i´ve just played against a GU skies which had btb and i spent the entire 3rd game "playing with fear" of that card and i spent the entire game trying to play a mystical teachings for it, that´s how good it it.

also it can be used against stuffy which i like. hide/seek is such a power tool, dont cut it.

and you will feel much better than before 

100% behind u vazdru. play better, more freely, stress free. lol

[Georg B]

Ok, first I want to thank you for your comments.
Its always good to see that the Users in this small forum are very committed and that they have a good know-how about the format.

I cutted the Seal and added Hide/Seek.
Also I cutted Zuran Orb and Flagstones to add the Fountain and the Archmage (just to test it, because it costs five mana in the round I cast it to be efficient, but if you tested it...).
One thing I dont understand is, why Figure of Destiny should be good in 5c.
What expiriences have you made with it, Mythrandir?

[Mythrandir]

What expiriences have you made with it, Mythrandir?

i´ve been testing it for quite a while, and vazdru knows it.

- The main interesting thing about figure it´s non-comprimising with a high CMC in spite of adding another winning condition. every time i get it on the table it becomes a target to kill and if it gets to be a 4/4, then that task is bit harsh.

- You only pump when u like (at instant speed), so you can still play other spells.
even if it gets killed, its a 1-1 trade. and u only paid 1 mana for it. so nothing of casting a 8 CMC fatty in order to get killed by a random spot removal.

- Every time i play it early on, i easily get it at 4/4 and deliver quite some damage points.

- Its good against aggro as it can act as blocker (and you only had to spent 1 mana).

- If it becomes an 8/8 its almost a game winner (and remember you only pumped it at EOT).

i´ve already won some games with it. (its a bit like goyf a cheap efficient creature)


btw. i´ve updated my 5cc control if you wanna check it out: http://www.magicplayer.org/forum/index.php?topic=13.new#new

[Mythrandir]

well, i´ve just made a (very long) match best of 3 with Georg B. (5cc VS 5cc-stuffy) and either he was lucky or his "draw engine" is better than mine. 2 out 3 his hand was always full, i asked him if it was normal he said "yes", however our deck lists arent that different (apart from mulldrifter, which i dont play, but i´m seriously considering it) this si quite intriguing for me since most of the time i´m playing from the top. perhaps it was coincidence.. dunno. any ideas why?

also he has agreed with glen being a powerful card as for the figure it wasnt put into a serious test.

3 fantastic games (over 2h).

Very ggs, thks

[Georg B]

Hey, what do you think about my latest changes:
-Stuffy Doll  -Guilty Conscience
+Isochron Szepter + Orims Chant

-Argivian Find
+Teferi

I hav not tested the Szempter Chant combo right now, but I think the parts are more flexible.
The thing that sucks is that it can be killed by a simple disenchant.

[Mythrandir]

Hey, what do you think about my latest changes:
-Stuffy Doll  -Guilty Conscience
+Isochron Szepter + Orims Chant

-Argivian Find
+Teferi

I hav not tested the Szempter Chant combo right now, but I think the parts are more flexible.
The thing that sucks is that it can be killed by a simple disenchant.

stuffy combo is good, however iso is mroe versatile.. and since u play loads of 2 CMC instants, ther will be no problem. the main disvantage is really the disenchant or any other 1.. you´ll be trading 2 cards for 1.. not a good deal.. =/ i used to run it a LONG time ago, but it got destroyed everytime, so i cut it.. however i didnt play orim chant.


As for teferi is quite good, but the UUU cost really hurts (at least my deck..)

[Georg B]

Ok, to update this thread, here is my deck as I play it at the moment (I cutted the Szepter Combo, because the Stuffy Combo is more solid.) :


// Lands
    1 [SH] Volrath's Stronghold
    1 [RAV] Watery Grave
    1 [DIS] Breeding Pool
    1 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
    1 [ON] Windswept Heath
    1 [ON] Polluted Delta
    1 [ON] Lonely Sandbar
    1 [DK] Maze of Ith
    1 [LG] Karakas
    1 [JU] Krosan Verge
    1 [TE] Wasteland
    1 [JU] Nantuko Monastery
    1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
    1 [FUT] Tolaria West
    1 [ON] Secluded Steppe
    1 [ON] Flooded Strand
    1 [R] Bayou
    1 [ON] Wooded Foothills
    1 [] Volcanic Island
    1 [] Badlands
    1 [R] Tropical Island
    1 [] Plateau
    1 [R] Savannah
    1 [] Scrubland
    1 [] Taiga
    1 [R] Tundra
    1 [R] Underground Sea
    1 [CS] Snow-Covered Island
    1 [IA] Snow-Covered Plains
    1 [TE] Reflecting Pool
    1 [ALA] Arcane Sanctum
    1 [ALA] Seaside Citadel
    1 [ALA] Crumbling Necropolis
    1 [ALA] Island (1)
    1 [ALA] Plains (3)
    1 [ALA] Swamp (3)
    1 [ALA] Forest (1)
    1 [DIS] Hallowed Fountain

// Creatures
    1 [ON] Exalted Angel
    1 [FD] Etched Oracle
    1 [PS] Flametongue Kavu
    1 [FD] Eternal Witness
    1 [SH] Wall of Blossoms
    1 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
    1 [FD] Trinket Mage
    1 [OD] Shadowmage Infiltrator
    1 [DIS] Court Hussar
    1 [RAV] Loxodon Hierarch
    1 [MR] Solemn Simulacrum
    1 [LRW] Shriekmaw
    1 [LRW] Garruk Wildspeaker
    1 [LRW] Liliana Vess
    1 [LRW] Mulldrifter
    1 [EVE] Glen Elendra Archamge
    1 [TSP] Stuffy Doll

// Spells
    1 [] Wrath of God
    1 [RAV] Remand
    1 [4E] Swords to Plowshares
    1 [TSP] Prismatic Lens
    1 [DIS] Azorius Signet
    1 [AP] Fire/Ice
    1 [RAV] Lightning Helix
    1 [AP] Pernicious Deed
    1 [GP] Mortify
    1 [PLC] Damnation
    1 [AP] Vindicate
    1 [CHK] Gifts Ungiven
    1 [] Demonic Tutor
    1 [6E] Enlightened Tutor
    1 [] Regrowth
    1 [TE] Intuition
    1 [OD] Tainted Pact
    1 [RAV] Life from the Loam
    1 [TSP] Mystical Teachings
    1 [IA] Brainstorm
    1 [IN] Fact or Fiction
    1 [RAV] Dimir Signet
    1 [MR] Talisman of Dominance
    1 [MR] Talisman of Progress
    1 [FUT] Coalition Relic
    1 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
    1 [PS] Eladamri's Call
    1 [VI] Tithe
    1 [PS] Terminate
    1 [IN] Collective Restraint
    1 [LG] Mana Drain
    1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
    1 [LRW] Austere Command
    1 [LRW] Profane Command
    1 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
    1 [LRW] Faerie Trickery
    1 [MI] Dissipate
    1 [VI] Impulse
    1 [TSP] Krosan Grip
    1 [ALA] Esper Charm
    1 [ALA] Jund Charm
    1 [DIS] Hide/Seek
    1 [WL] Argivian Find
    1 [SC] Guilty Conscience
    1 [] Counterspell


I cuttet Dromars Charm to add Counterspell, because I made the expirience that I use the counter mode almost every time, and so the Counterspell is better, because it is easier to cast.

At the moment I'm thinking of cutting the Esper Charm (although the foil version in my deck looks so good ), because it is not as good as I thought.
there's only an advantage of 1 card for you and that's to few for the cost of WUB. And it is digging only 2 cards deep, so it is a bit random. Maybe it is better in deck with more counters (In a pure WUB control).

What do you think about it? I would like to add Kitchen Finks instead. They are good beaters against control, and brilliant blockers against aggro.

[Mythrandir]

I cuttet Dromars Charm to add Counterspell, because I made the expirience that I use the counter mode almost every time, and so the Counterspell is better, because it is easier to cast.

At the moment I'm thinking of cutting the Esper Charm (although the foil version in my deck looks so good ), because it is not as good as I thought.
there's only an advantage of 1 card for you and that's to few for the cost of WUB. And it is digging only 2 cards deep, so it is a bit random. Maybe it is better in deck with more counters (In a pure WUB control).

What do you think about it? I would like to add Kitchen Finks instead. They are good beaters against control, and brilliant blockers against aggro.

Well as far as dromar charm i mainly use it for the counter, however the other modules have proven to be really good.

Esper isnt good.. =/ WUB for 2 cards? even at instant... the discard 2 module isnt good in a deck like yours. i would run a deep analasis or wordly counsil before that 1.
Dont u like evasive action? i know that remand is good, but in my 5CC ´ve come to realize that i need hard counters, not really tempo, IMO.

How do u fair jund charm? i´ve tested it and the BRG is a bit harsh for my deck, but u play signets/talimans.

Why terminate and no putrefy? is the difference in mana that great? like me your deck doesnt use that many R mana, so....

[Nastaboi]

like me your deck doesnt use that many R mana, so....

... both of you should cut red alltogether. It doesn't give you anything other colours won't, and you'll get better mana base which is more valuable. And all played domain/sunburst cards work as well with just 4 different basic land types.