Views on bannings

[Kassow-Rossing]

I will do this as shortly as possible because it's very likely boring reading for most people. However I feel like I have to say something.

Gifts Ungiven should be banned in my eyes. Every blue player will play it and it will always be a good card. It is easily splash-able and it will ensure a much higher percentage of winning the game once resolved. Gifts Ungiven can find many different combo pieces and will therefore be an auto-include in any control deck. Life from the Loam got banned because of this card. Gifts Ungiven is a 2:1 card but it won't draw the two random cards but two of the seven best cards in the deck (or whatever). This card will always be a threat to the format for as long as it stays in.

Demonic Tutor should be banned in my eyes. In a 100 cards singleton format, a tutor spell is just more powerful than it other times is. For that reason Vampiric Tutor, Enlightened Tutor and Mystical Tutor has been banned. The fact that is costs one whole more mana to cast than the previous mentioned tutor's matters not much. It is much better than any of them. Demonic Tutor is a card that is hard to "defend" when talking to non-Highlander players about the banning list of the Highlander format. It is simply too good.

Wheel of Fortune should not be banned in my eyes. Yes it is better in red than in blue (Timetwister) but I don't see it be near good enough neither unfair to be banned. I won't argue much here because I have not tested the card in any way. If the HL Council has, I'm fine with this even though I find it peculiar a red card is banned when a blue is not if they do the same. Timetwister should not be banned because it doesn't do that much. Even in the right situation.

Life from the Loam should not be banned in my eyes. In no way is this card better than Crucible of Worlds if cards like Gifts Ungiven and Intuition wouldn't exist and Crucible is far from being good enough. Back when LftL got banned I think a mistake was made. People were "crying" (Sorry it's easier to explain using familiar words) about the fact that Gifts Ungiven was too good and that the Wasteland Lock-Down was dominating the control match-up's. They were right. As a result Intuition and Gifts Ungiven should have been banned because those cards are over-the-top good in a 100 cards singleton format. Life from the Loam does nothing dangerous alone, Gifts does.

Trinisphere should not be banned in my eyes. I have tried asking the HL Council for the reason why this card was banned and the response has been "sry - can't find it". To my knowledge (And I'm sorry if I'm mistaken) I believe this card has been bd. I can seeanned for a very long time, maybe right from the beginning, for no reason at all. I suspect it to be taken from the Legacy ban list where it makes perfectly sense to ban such a card. I don't think it belongs to the HL ban list. It won't kill of any deck, even aggro will be able to run around it in this format. I would not even play it in my Staxx deck, where it suits better than any deck. Obviously it will be amazing with M. Workshop but without Wshop turn1, I don't think this card is any threat to the format.

Patrick

[Nastaboi]

I have some figures for you. Thus far, resolved Gifts has lead to victory in 34 games out of 44 which is 77 %. Demonic has won 21 times out of 34 -> 62 % and Jace, the Mind Sculptor impressive 16 out of 20 -> 80 %. The sample size is really small and I mostly play control-on-control matches, but it gives us something to think about. If nothing else, these figures show that Demonic can be used "fair" as finding a land when screwed or an immediate answer to a threat so it's a great card for not losing. As opposed to Gifts, which will usually win if you are not too far behind or you opponent doesn't topdeck something equally threatening.

I tend to agree with you on most parts, but everything will be discussed in detail with council to see if any of these moves should be made. Trinisphere BTW is banned just because of "the unfun factor", and while there are no other real arguments for keeping it on the list, I don't really miss it.

[coldcrow]

I do not want to post a kneejerk reaction here but:
This is the typical result of previous bans which lead to more bans. If you ban Gifts and DT, noncreature combo is dead (it is pretty much anyways) and the format becomes even more a clash between aggro and control with some fringe combo decks mixed in.
Also my personal consequence would be leaving the format alone for the time being.

[Kassow-Rossing]

Thx for the response both of you.

The numbers matter, but I don't think they should be the sole reason to ban or not ban a card. I don't think Jace, the Mind Sculptor should ever be banned from a format like this. It costs UU and it's great fun. Gifts is so easily splashable that you have to keep it on some sort of Watch List all the time. As goes for Demonic Tutor. Trinisphere could be banned for the fun factor, but then I really think 10 other cards should be banned as well. I don't think a non-powerful unfun card should be banned for the fact that it's unfun if no one wants to play it. Maybe I'm wrong on one or several levels.

[Mythrandir]

Trinisphere BTW is banned just because of "the unfun factor", and while there are no other real arguments for keeping it on the list, I don't really miss it.

weird!

@kassow. Wheel of fortunate has been explained before and i agree. There aren't many aggro blue decks, beside Skies (which i havent' seen in quite a while). So timetwister isn't as a killer as wheel for aggro decks. Decks such as RDW or pure burn where you can easily empty your hand in a few turns and then cast wheel to refuel your fire (no pun intended) is just too strong, IMO.

Although i haven't seen many timetwisters being played, even in online mode, i wish this hadn't left the banning list.

[PurlQg]

I can't see gifts and demonic tutor being as big a problem as you state. I happen to play non-creature combo ofcourse .
I do agree that both cards are strong and some of the more powerful cards in this format, but my point of view is that some powerful cards are needed to keep the format alive.
If you remove all usable tutors you remove some possibilities on the other hand if you have to many combo runs rampant.
You could ban both cards because of their powerlevel but there has to be more reasons, and sofar I haven't heard any other reasons that really makes a case for any bannings. Easy to splash? Most of the really powerful cards are "easy" to splash. Most really good cards improves your chance to win..
I would ban jace 2.0 before any of the tutors, I do feel it's more of a problem compared to these two. Ban the cards they search for before you ban the tutors I always say..

[coldcrow]

Also: if you ban all the good tutors the variance of viable decks will shrink dramatically, possibly leading to the already visible meta of stax vs naya vs rector (I am exxagerating of course). True non-prison control also needs tutors to find their wincons or solutions. I don't understand why ET + MT + VT are banned anyways. I find the current meta less interesting than a possible more combo/controllish meta with them. IT doesn't matter where the interaction happens, on the board or on the stack, but a slight push for control would be good. The only problem I can see right now would be that Rector gets 2 more tutors

[Crusader]

Trinisphere:
Banned when Staxx started to become a prominent deck. T1 or T2 Sphere is just too much for many decks to overcome. It does not happen every game, but often enough to steal games from the start. Vs Beatdown it is like a time walk x2, changing into a one sided arcane lab.

The Tutors:
The one mana instant T. are incredible powerful, because you can
1: react eot --> full mana available
2: can tutor up t1 a powerful t2 play
Oath Example: T1 Vamp/ET -> T2 Oath
              T2 Demonic -> T3 Oath
I guess everybody agrees, that tapping out turn 2 and three opens more windows for aggro to stay in play then just tapping out turn 2. Bashing for 6-9 extra damage is also nice.
3: The 1 mana Ts. are only inferior if you topdeck them and if you need an answer right now.

Jace 2.0:
If  a card should be banned, i would say this guy. If this planeswalker stays on board for 2-3 Turns it is highly unlikely that you will win the game.

just my 2cents

[Nastaboi]

I did not state that I want Jace banned nor that banning should be based on my figures only. I was just representig those figures and letting you to draw your own conclusions.

We don't want to all tutors banned, just the very best ones. I feel that Demonic is more powerful than Enlightened and Mystical, but many think it's other way around.

Control is find without tutors. In deckbuilding, there are a thing that's called consistency. When you put enough answers and some card draw in your deck, you'll be able to eventually gain control, and then win just what you happen to have that time. In my UW control recently published in the blog, I chose not to splash Demonic as I felt no need for it and went for a red splash instead. Control without Gifts? You'd propably just add another card that is good against aggro in its place, and have one less card that decides control mirrors in the spot. Aggro is not getting any stronger.

BTW, the only time I have lost with Jace is when an opponent had an immediate answer.

[Tiggupiru]

Jace is sick in control mirror, but it's not like Library of Alexandria-sick, which you can't counter, and have only limited answers. Jace can be fought with counters, bounce and creatures (O-Ring works too). If your opponent is playing blue-based control, you really should be wary of the possibility of him having a Jace and not tap-out to play semi-irrelevant cards when opponent has access to four mana. Keeping up the counter mana can work as well, because in HL, you can't just draw and play another copy of sick planeswalkers, so it's kind of risky to play your trump cards into untapped islands. Just give the card the proper respect and you shouldn't lose too many games to it.

Against aggro, Jace, Market Sculptor is either a bad speed bump, or it doesn't really accomplish anything too relevant. Naturally, it wins against aggro once the board is under control, but same is true for any finisher. Banning Jace sounds pretty ridiculous if you ask me.

I mentioned this last time bannings were discussed, but what comes to ET and MT in Pattern-Rector: Enlightened is not going to be sick in that deck. I cut Idyllic long time ago from it, and while ET is definitely going in, it's still very limited. Pattern is the worst combo-piece, but on the upside, you can find Recurring Nightmare (O-Ring, too), which makes up for the lost CA. Mystical is (I think at least) decent in the version that splashes for blue, but the splash is still because of Gifts, MT is just freebie. I'd see no reason to splash blue, if Gifts were banned.

[PurlQg]

I totaly agree with Nastaboi, if gifts get banned pure control won't change much.
The decks that will feel the weight of this if it was to be a reality would be the combo decks for sure!

[LasH]

In my opinion, its not necessary to ban/unban any cards right now. The format is healthy.

To go more into detail:

Gifts Ungiven - Life from the Loam: I disagree that GU needs a ban. In my opinion, banning Lftl was the right choice. There is a huge difference in lftl and crucible. You have a big draw Engine with Lftl + cycle lands. 2nd argument: If your crucible gets countered, you need another card to revive it, while lftl can "revive" itself. 3rd Argument: Lftl + dredge slows down any game.

Trinisphere: I like this card too. I even tested it for fun recently, and my conclusion is: It straight wins any game with turn 1 workshop + trinisphere. Thats why i agree that its better not touched.

Wheel: Would make a "i win" for any burn deck, if it resolves.

Demonic: Should stay in the format. I don't feel like it's an "auto win" or to powerful. And the format does need some tutor's.

Jace: Yes one of the strongest cards in the format. But loosing to jace does not feel frustrating for me (yet).

[Mythrandir]

Jace: Yes one of the strongest cards in the format. But loosing to jace does not feel frustrating for me (yet).

I think this is true for most (good) PW. As a control player any garruk, ajani, elsepth, koth, tez, sarkhan left unchecked is going to get you killed, unless dealt within a couple of turns.

I've won and lost with PW on the table... on my side and on the otherside. PW will see more and more play as we see more of them, so we just have to adjust to it. Jace doesn't seem power broken.

[Maqi]

In my opinion, its not necessary to ban/unban any cards right now. The format is healthy.

Demonic: Should stay in the format. [...] And the format does need some tutor's.

Agreed!

[~Fenry~]

In my opinion, its not necessary to ban/unban any cards right now. The format is healthy.

To go more into detail:

Gifts Ungiven - Life from the Loam: I disagree that GU needs a ban. In my opinion, banning Lftl was the right choice. There is a huge difference in lftl and crucible. You have a big draw Engine with Lftl + cycle lands. 2nd argument: If your crucible gets countered, you need another card to revive it, while lftl can "revive" itself. 3rd Argument: Lftl + dredge slows down any game.

Trinisphere: I like this card too. I even tested it for fun recently, and my conclusion is: It straight wins any game with turn 1 workshop + trinisphere. Thats why i agree that its better not touched.

Wheel: Would make a "i win" for any burn deck, if it resolves.

Demonic: Should stay in the format. I don't feel like it's an "auto win" or to powerful. And the format does need some tutor's.

Jace: Yes one of the strongest cards in the format. But loosing to jace does not feel frustrating for me (yet).

Totally Agreed!!!

At the moment the format is as good as never before.