Tolarian Academy

[so_not]

1. Creatures getting better and better, but on the other hand, control cards don't.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gnYhG_ekoH8

Better than all.

[Helle]

1. Creatures getting better and better, but on the other hand, control cards don't.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gnYhG_ekoH8

Better than all.

Definitly true, but unlike Moat, Abyss and the like, Jace is also being played in aggrodecks, if they can support the color requirements.

[Tabris]

1. Creatures getting better and better, but on the other hand, control cards don't.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gnYhG_ekoH8

Better than all.

lulz.

Wondering that chapin have this much irony in stock about himself.

[LasH]

1. Creatures getting better and better, but on the other hand, control cards don't.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gnYhG_ekoH8

Better than all.

Definitly true, but unlike Moat, Abyss and the like, Jace is also being played in aggrodecks, if they can support the color requirements.

#2

Any bant deck not running Jace? UG Aggro not running Jace? And if we respond via youtube from now on:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-b3qQEP02o

Duh-Eh.

[Payron]

I remember staxx in the old days with academy and I realy don t want this times and meta back. I rather have a aggro dominated meta, which I think is more fun then everybody is playing deck with lockdowns as win con only!
But maybe I can't count here because I realy hate Staxx and I am happy the concile does work in the direction, that HL should be fun to play and that means a lot interation not like most combo and staxx decks just play for there own :-/

[coldcrow]

Yea, forces forbid you would have to design your aggro/control deck with combo in mind. You might actually move the interaction towards the stack, not the board.
Do you really think the single card Academy or Ywill would break stax/tps and make it unbeatable? The problem of stax is not that it lost TA, it is
a) aggro got alot faster
b) better utility creatures which can be played without diluting the deck
c) old/new creature tutors becoming better/being printed leading to the banning of survival for example
d) multicolour manabases enabling easy splashing of powerful utility cards for aggro, weakening one of the main advantage of heavy artifact decks, which was enabling 5c spells.

[so_not]

1. Creatures getting better and better, but on the other hand, control cards don't.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gnYhG_ekoH8

Better than all.

Definitly true, but unlike Moat, Abyss and the like, Jace is also being played in aggrodecks, if they can support the color requirements.

#2

Any bant deck not running Jace? UG Aggro not running Jace? And if we respond via youtube from now on:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-b3qQEP02o

Duh-Eh.

How does this mean Jace is any less control card? I could have also taken Gideon for example. That card is definitely not an aggro card but it is just so good that you can play it in midrange bant and other decks too. I really don't understand why people want so stubbornly believe that control only means some slow and clunky old-school pile when you can still play the most powerful finishers, card advantage spells and best removal and have a great control deck that doesn't have to play vulnerable and specific cards. Why can't you just accept the fact that Magic changes and if something like Staxx was the deck to beat some years ago doesn't mean it couldn't be dead right now.

[ChristophO]

Stax tries to remove interaction from the game, just like combo decks do. So, in order not to grow combo or stax any stronger, I'm perfectly fine with the ban. (By the way, I think it still will be abused by the aforementioned cards/decks).

I registered just to be able to post an answer to this. Armageddon, Ravages, Winter Orb, Back to Basics, Natural Order (->Progenitus) are all Cards that are played by Aggro Decks to reduce interaction with the opponent to milk free wins. Once they resolve they all create loosing board states immediately given the proper circumstances.

Why is it unfair to Wildfire away the board and drop a T. Academy (with 2 artifact mana in play) but Armageddon on Turn 4 on the play with 2 beaters and a mana elf is fair (with the possible follow up of Cradle)? Or playing an Orb after countering a big spell for which the opponent tapped out abusing a favorable board state? As long as there are no opressive decks that outclass other T1 Highlander deck strategies some cards for combination decks should continued to be unbanned.

I believe the Academy is a viable option for this goal.

[LasH]

How does this mean Jace is any less control card? I could have also taken Gideon for example. That card is definitely not an aggro card but it is just so good that you can play it in midrange bant and other decks too. I really don't understand why people want so stubbornly believe that control only means some slow and clunky old-school pile when you can still play the most powerful finishers, card advantage spells and best removal and have a great control deck that doesn't have to play vulnerable and specific cards. Why can't you just accept the fact that Magic changes and if something like Staxx was the deck to beat some years ago doesn't mean it couldn't be dead right now.

Finally not a provocating one-liner from you. Thanks for that and stop watching David Caruso . Back to topic:

You kinda give the answer to yourself.

"That card is definitely not an aggro card but it is just so good that you can play it in midrange bant and other decks too."

That makes it a universal card and not a specific control or aggro card, its more like demonic tutor, playble in all decks in every situation. I speak from SPECIFIC control cards, to compete with the new printed aggro stuff. Is there any playble new card for a lockdown or a nice bord cleaner? No they print shit like the new worse ghostly prison for 5 mana (or 2 and you loose life hooray) or wrath effects for >5cc. Thats the point.
You claim that every deck should have his weakness and have vulnerable cards. Whats vulnerable on a quasali pridemage? Do you loose the game if you loose him? 2 Mana to have bord control, a excellent beater and a boost for your other creatures. Compare this to the next generation pure control cards and then we go on. I sure dont want back to a point where you can play all your oldschool cards, but there should be SOMETHING scary for aggro, which ONLY belongs to control/combo players (fe firespout).

And ofc do decks change, for example firesgeddon is a deck which was playble some years ago and now its dead. But there were no bannings which cut the deck down. Stax got about 10 cards banned since it was the deck to beat. And there are still at least some cards on the banlist, which are discussable right now.

The more archetypes, the better the meta. Don't you agree?

[Kassow-Rossing]

Thx for the reasons Pyyhttu. That just shows there is no real reason why Tolarian Academy should be banned any longer At least not from what the link tells us.

I think your argumentation is biased by a stax-players view.

U got me But the argument for banning Tolarian Academy was: Staxx is too good so we ban the best card in the deck. Staxx is apparently no longer near the best deck of the format so the reason behind the banning is gone => It must be tested again, otherwise it must be unbanned.

I'm kind of split on the topic of unbanning Tolarian Academy. I'm worried that it might warp the format, however it has been almost 4 years since it was banned. Perhaps some testing would be in order. As always, if it turns out not be too broken/awesome/good, I wouldn't mind the ban being lifted. That being said, I have no real clue about the card's potency since I really never had a deck that could properly benefit from it.

I totally agree. The card should be tested again and I will accept either the banning or the unbanning no matter the reason if it isn't "Staxx is too strong". Tolarian Academy is such a ridicules card but so is Gaea's Cradle. Maybe TA has been weakened since 2007 and maybe it has become much more of a Cradle.

[Nastaboi]

In the last couple of years, they have printed:

- new Swords to Plowshares
- two new better Terrors
- new Wrath of God
- 3WW 5/5 lifelinking angel
- a bunch of insane planeswalkers
- a bunch of insane 6cc finishers
- new Counterspell
- new Ponder
- new Court Hussar
- new Wall of Blossoms
- new Duress (which hits everything aggro plays)
- new Flame-Tongue Kavu
- new Wasteland
- new Firespout
- new Relic of Progenitus
- new good mana acceleration

Just to name few. These are not control cards?

[LasH]

New counterspell? Speaking of deprive? Is that the new counterspell for control decks? Serious?

Wall of omen
Firespout
Day of judgement
Agree.

Rest belongs to deckbuilding forum for bant aggro with B splash for named ones + dark confidant and rec. nightmare.

Btw, can we stay on topic for tolarian academy?

[coldcrow]

In the last couple of years, they have printed:

- new Swords to Plowshares
- two new better Terrors
- new Wrath of God
- 3WW 5/5 lifelinking angel
- a bunch of insane planeswalkers
- a bunch of insane 6cc finishers
- new Counterspell
- new Ponder
- new Court Hussar
- new Wall of Blossoms
- new Duress (which hits everything aggro plays)
- new Flame-Tongue Kavu
- new Wasteland
- new Firespout
- new Relic of Progenitus
- new good mana acceleration

Just to name few. These are not control cards?

Alot of those cards are being used in the aggro-control decks which leads to the current almost uniform Tier 1 decks. You start with G/W then either go Bant/Naya or 4c-5c goodstuff "aggro-control".
It is pretty much a result of the 100 card singleton format. Best are the cards which fill as many roles as efficiently as possible.
Planeswalkers are actually pushing towards aggro even more, because the most reliable way to remove them is to have a superior creature base.
Imho the time is very ripe to rethink the current bannings and unbanning Jar is a step in the right direction.

[Sturmgott]

Don't.

[Nastaboi]

Alot of those cards are being used in the aggro-control decks

That just means, as so_not already stated, that printed control cards are so good that even aggressive decks want to play them. It does not mean that they don't exist or aren't been printed.

Back on the topic, Academy is always either bad or insanely good, and thus we'd gain nothing from unbanning it.