Tolarian Academy

[Kassow-Rossing]

Back on the topic, Academy is always either bad or insanely good, and thus we'd gain nothing from unbanning it.

Same goes for Gaea's Cradle or Fauna Shaman for example. Your statement is no argument. It should be tested because the reasons for the banning no longer apply. It can then stay banned or get unbanned depending on the testings.

[MarcMagic]

Well I don't really get it. TA will strenghten decks which are currently not or at least not often played, decks which are played but won't dominate even after more unbannings and decks which can be build around TA. The last one is kind of recursive but nvm.. Storm is not viable atm and even if it will become viable after TA unban (it will obv not) it won't dominate anything and due to this it's only pro the format not con. Staxx wants to play TA without any question but atm they cannot abuse it. TA produces lots of mana if you already got enough manasources (if you got 3 signets/talisman its okay to produce +2 blue mana imo). You can get faster starts (not really faster than Workshop->coalition relic/double signet start which are no autowin) but those antiaggro business spells of Staxx are most of the time double colored non-blue spells. I don't think people will be able to play sth like MoM + TA + random x-spell (which is 3-card combo and does not instantly win). Kind of the same with Power Artifact.. "it will see play in any staxx deck because you nevertheless run 1-2 monoliths" is just bullshit because Staxx can't play such "dead"cards. Well and all other decks which can play TA in their favor don't exist atm. And everybody knows how hard it is @ HL to build decks around single cards without playing straight combo (Goblin Welder for example).

But this whole discussion is more or less redundant because it will come to the same point over and over again. There are not enough information about tournaments, testings, metagame etc to decide easily for the formats sake. And it's a big difference whether you play 4:60 or 1:100. But what I know for sure, all previous unbannings like Power Artifact, Dust Bowl, Worldgorger Dragon, Protean Hulk, Kikki-Jikki, Chain of Plasma, Timetwister and the ones I forgot, did kinda nothing to the format and were feared bevore. Ofc it's because the meta changed etc but maybe we could risk even a bit more. Just my opionion, in the worst case it's only for 3 months and a dominance won't even be noticed until it's banned again (quite paradox tbh).  

[Nastaboi]

Back on the topic, Academy is always either bad or insanely good, and thus we'd gain nothing from unbanning it.

Same goes for Gaea's Cradle or Fauna Shaman for example.

No, it does not. In order to Cradle or Shaman to be very good, you need to fill your deck with creatures, which makes your deck less broken. Fauna Shaman is never insane as it has summoning sickness and can be used only once in turn (and have no good untappers either).

[Kassow-Rossing]

Back on the topic, Academy is always either bad or insanely good, and thus we'd gain nothing from unbanning it.

Same goes for Gaea's Cradle or Fauna Shaman for example.

No, it does not. In order to Cradle or Shaman to be very good, you need to fill your deck with creatures, which makes your deck less broken. Fauna Shaman is never insane as it has summoning sickness and can be used only once in turn (and have no good untappers either).

Oh yes. Gaea's Cradle can be really insane in the right situation or really poor in the wrong situation. That goes for almost every card in the game. Some more than others. Tolarian Academy can be really poor if you have no artifacts on the battlefield and really insane if you have just cast Armageddon and still have to artifacts on the battlefield.

Let's move on to more real arguments such as the reasons for bannings in 2007 doesn't really mean anything anymore as far as I know. I would like for one of the HL Council to speak up on this manner.

[so_not]

It's a bit harder to remove artifacts than creatures so Academy and Cradle can't really be compared (Academy also gives better mana). Like Nastaboi said, blue is bonkers green is not.
Anyway I'll stop fighting against windmills. If people want to play their pet cards it's fine. I like winning instead.

On the subject I would very much like to play something like (very fast sketch):
Tolarian Academy
Mishra's Workshop
Academy Ruins
Tolaria West
Shelldock Isle
+other lands

Chrome Mox
Mox Diamond
Mox Opal
Top
Duresses
Brainstorms
Crop Rotation
Candelabra
Expedition Map
Thoughtcast

Grim Monolith
Demonic Tutor
Transmute Artifacts
Cloud of Faeries
Mana Drain
Sylvan Scrying
Regrowth
Channel
Lim-Duls Vault
Muddle the Mixture
Thopter
Sword
some talismans, signets and counters

Frantic Search
Grim Tutor
Timetwister
Wind Fall
Worn Powerstone
Coalition Relic
Metalworker
Trinket Mage
Eternal Witness
Intuition
Temple Bell
Thirst
Doomsday
Show and Tell

Gifts Ungiven
Jace
Thran Dynamo
Argivian Restoration
Fact or Fiction
Garruk
Tezzeret Agent of Bolas

Time Warp
Capture of Jingzhou
Temporal Manipulation
Tezzeret the Seeker
Panoptic Mirror
Fow
Gilded Lotus

Mind over Matter
Time Spiral
Mindslaver
Yawgmoth's Bargain
Mindslaver
Palinchron
Emrakul

+other cards (maybe too many win cons, probably includes some stuff that are too slow and I probably forgot many good cards too)

[Kassow-Rossing]

It's a bit harder to remove artifacts than creatures

Yes it is

Academy also gives better mana

Yes it does.

None of the above changes the fact that Gaea's Cradle and Fauna Shaman (Just to look at two good examples) are either really really good or really really bad depending on the situation. This apply to many cards. I still really think the card should be tested unless somebody can find a written reason from the Council why it shouldn't. So far we have:
TA must be banned because Staxx is the best deck of the format
Doesn't apply any longer.

[Tiggupiru]

It's a bit harder to remove artifacts than creatures so Academy and Cradle can't really be compared.

Not to mention in Vintage there is no Gaea's Cradle played at all, despite the fact that creatures do not die in that format. Academy on the other hand, sees plenty of play and is restricted to boot.

In Legacy, Academy is banned and Cradle sees no play either. And before someone happily points out that "the format is different", I like to say that while that statement is true, this is still some major indication of the power levels.


Oh and, Stax is not the problem when Academy becomes unbanned, like so_not stated. Stax is still a fair deck, that just got a card that makes it's sick draws sicker and little more consistent. Academy does make a combo deck around it, probably even has some of the Stax's elements, as Spheres combo rather well with Academy, and that deck would be the problematic one.

To that decklist I would add Deserted Temple, Mind's Desire, Memory Jar, Future Sight and at least some artifact lands, maybe all of them. Spheres could also go in as they are pretty decent disruption, might prove to be wrong, though. It would be a blast to play, but I really don't think it will be fair in any means.

[Kassow-Rossing]

Aah.. Okay well then I suggest the HL Council take up TA for a test with some different combo decks before the 15. of July

[LasH]

+other cards (maybe too many win cons, probably includes some stuff that are too slow and I probably forgot many good cards too)

Probaly u forgot to handle the very not broken creatures. Gaddock Teeg. You conceed. Quasali Pridemage? Oh no matter which of your 5-6 random combo parts you actually have, you will never end up with the 2nd part. Oh you found it? Oh wait you're alrdy dead.

Since all cards of this list are legal atm, do you really, REALLY think that TA makes the difference to your list? If thats your opinion, play it and see what happens.
You need more than one card to bring up the brokeness. Your list is clunky and would not even come close to beat RDW. I dont start speaking about bant, which can handle anything you play with counter + creatures + artifact removals.

It's a bit harder to remove artifacts than creatures so Academy and Cradle can't really be compared

Not for any Bant List
http://pmtg-forum.de/wbb2/attachment.php?attachmentid=304

I counted cards like eladamri's call for both, because it can search shredder or pridemage.

Possible Artifact removal/bounce:17
Possible Creature removal/bounce:18

Ofc its only one deck, but its actual one of the most recent, which you will face pretty sure on a tournament.

And bringing up vintage and legacy again...Thats desperation. Read the text of Marcmagic he pretty said the most important points about the entire topic.

[so_not]

+other cards (maybe too many win cons, probably includes some stuff that are too slow and I probably forgot many good cards too)

Probaly u forgot to handle the very not broken creatures. Gaddock Teeg. You conceed. Quasali Pridemage? Oh no matter which of your 5-6 random combo parts you actually have, you will never end up with the 2nd part. Oh you found it? Oh wait you're alrdy dead.

Since all cards of this list are legal atm, do you really, REALLY think that TA makes the difference to your list? If thats your opinion, play it and see what happens.
You need more than one card to bring up the brokeness. Your list is clunky and would not even come close to beat RDW. I dont start speaking about bant, which can handle anything you play with counter + creatures + artifact removals.

Like I said it is a rough sketch just to make conversation about different kinds of Academy decks. This particular deck pretty much works around Academy (untap spells) so yes academy makes all the difference. The deck already has 1 mana discards and counters and it wouldn't be too hard to add more disruption and removal. The deck already has plenty of tutors, some one card combos, draw sevens and other thinning/drawing stuff so it is not really that hard to get some of the combos online. Combo decks in general have very hard time against rdw although they can't do pretty much anything to stop you if tutor for show and tell - Emrakul for example or get thopter-combo online.

It's a bit harder to remove artifacts than creatures so Academy and Cradle can't really be compared

Not for any Bant List
http://pmtg-forum.de/wbb2/attachment.php?attachmentid=304

I counted cards like eladamri's call for both, because it can search shredder or pridemage.

Possible Artifact removal/bounce:17
Possible Creature removal/bounce:18

Ofc its only one deck, but its actual one of the most recent, which you will face pretty sure on a tournament.

And bringing up vintage and legacy again...Thats desperation. Read the text of Marcmagic he pretty said the most important points about the entire topic.

How does one 103-card decklist change my point?

[LasH]

How does one 103-card decklist change my point?

Well i alrdy investigated time, if you are to lazy to check more decklists about this, its up to you. But don't bring up things that are simply not true in general. Pridemage and stuff are in ANY list with GW, so is Wickerborn in a-lot list with G, so are the tutors, so is vindicate and ms-pulse and o-ring in any deck which runs these colors.

UNIVERSAL cards, deja-vu?

[coldcrow]

Stop the hyperbole.

Comparing Vintage with HL is unappropriate and does nothing to strengthen your point at all. Academy is strong in Vintage because of the cheap mana artifacts, which we do not have. Point is moot.
Inherently combo as the only plan is not too strong in HL cause of the singleton rule. That is why creatures are the preferred way to win. That is also why creature decks became so strong with the recent printings, because said creatures fill multiple roles now:
a) being good beaters
b) disrupting the opponent
c) generating CA
d) advancing your primary/secondary combo/control plan

Which is my entire point: The 3c-5c goodstuff creature decks are really aggro control: they have a strong creature base and a very solid control plan due to creatures like pridemage,elder,clique,venser,teeg and so on.
Also the best combo deck (Pattern) has a very solid secondary aggro plan which makes it so strong vs control.
Seeing the theme? Cards that fill multiple roles (beater,disruption,CA) will alwys be preferred in the 100 card singleton format, as long as there isn't enough redundancy in a certain synergy deck.
It is just a question what meta you like: Ours is already warped by the presence of the goodstuff decks, which have the best matchups in average. They might lose a few games vs dedicated metadecks (U/R nonbasic hate for example) but in general offer the best answers for all kinds of matchups.

It would be interesting to see if we could allow combo decks to be tier 1-2 without dominating the meta and I would welcome a test of such decks.

[Nastaboi]

I wouldn't mind if people outside the council tested cards they think could be unbanned and told their conclusions. Of course we won't make decisions based solely on that, but we would appreciate it as we don't happen to have all the time in the World.

[so_not]

How does one 103-card decklist change my point?

Well i alrdy investigated time, if you are to lazy to check more decklists about this, its up to you. But don't bring up things that are simply not true in general. Pridemage and stuff are in ANY list with GW, so is Wickerborn in a-lot list with G, so are the tutors, so is vindicate and ms-pulse and o-ring in any deck which runs these colors.

UNIVERSAL cards, deja-vu?

Take any of your beloved board control decks, rdw, boros, ww, ug or goblins or pretty much any non-goodstuff deck for example. Is something like Creeping Corrosion or Shatterstorm played? How about Wrath, DoJ, Damnation, Firespout etc?
--



Academy is also banned in 100CS although I doubt they have tested it very much.

Format can't be balanced by making someones pet Staxx better if that means unbanning of random and overpowered cards when there will be the risk of them dominating the format. If I were to demand unbanning of some card, I would try to build the most broken deck I could think with that card and prove the council the card shouldn't be banned. This probably sounds a bit harsh but people should stop demanding unbannings if their deck building skills are limited to a single favourite deck or net-decking. To me the best part of the game is deck building and highlander cardpool is so huge so you can build dozens and dozens of viable decks. Still people go with the regular stuff which is sad

Some off-topic speculation:
Goodstuff decks are good no-doubt but like I have said before, you can always play control too. Problem with old-school board control decks is not only creatures but also Planeswalkers against which they have very little answers. Now creatures are both good with and good against walkers so naturally playing creatures is the easiest way to go. Now board control decks could try to abuse this by maybe playing more control magic effects for example? Before WotC prints more playable Walker-removal, you are pretty limited to Fetters, Needle, Pulse, Vindicate and Oblivion Ring which all takes the focus of board control deck to a more utility based control. One still overlooked fact is that in control Sword of Feast and Famine is an effective Mirari's Wake, only better one (has pseudo-haste and built-in disruption). The only problem with it is that you have to play more creatures to abuse that fact. In a midrange world, decks that resemble caw-go or faeries have the edge (actually dedicated combo decks mostly have problem with very fast aggro so if format warps in even more midrange direction then combo could become more viable).

[Tiggupiru]

And bringing up vintage and legacy again...Thats desperation.

Yeah. I am desperately trying to prove you that this is a broken card. I like building decks to abuse Academy, I like playing decks like this, and I like winning games, but if Academy gets unbanned, I really doubt my opponents will have enjoyable time.

And speaking of desperation, it's desperate to think that one disenchant, that costs three no less, is going to wreck the Academy deck. It most definitively slows them down if you manage to do it in first few turns, but you are spending your whole turn blowing up one of their artifacts, so it's not like you can put a convincing clock either.

Here is a prototype I built to test with, it's far from perfect, might have too few lands, might need some more disruption, might miss some very obvious cards. Deck is blast to play and focuses on finding Academy ASAP by mulliganing aggressively. Plays a bit like a storm combo deck.

http://pastebin.com/q6zcwjde