New bannings I / 2012

[Kristian]

So with the new bannings, we're just gonna leave control neutered and useless and let aggro run rampant?

[Nastaboi]

So with the new bannings, we're just gonna leave control neutered and useless and let aggro run rampant?

What do you mean? We just unbanned three cards that have no use in aggressive decks, two of them being most potent in combo decks. What we should have unbanned for not leaving control neutered?

BTW discussions on new banned list should probably go elsewhere (hint, mods).

[Kristian]

I sincerely doubt that the loss of birthing pod is enough to help control decks. Life From the Loam is indeed a good control card, but it's only really effective in control vs. control. Against aggro, geting your lands back while getting your face beat in just isn't good enough. Yawgmoth's Will also seems insufficient in the control vs aggro (albeit it has some potential). It simply takes too long to enable plays that helps for control vs aggro. Dread Return? Combo piece...

The core of the problem is that there's so many effective spells on legs and effecient creatures that make aggro decks much more consistent and effective. As a control player, you *have* to play creatures to deal with aggro, and it still doesn't help you enough. You need only to take a look at top 8s to see how much it affects the format. All we ever see working is aggro decks spanning from ultrafast weenie to solid midrange.

Personally I would have banned Stoneforge Mystic too since it's simply too powerful in my opinion. All I'd like to see would be aggro, control and combo doing well in equal amounts since I love playing all archetypes, but it's not going to happen as long as aggro is as favored as now.

EDIT: Also thank you for moving the posts.

[W0lf]

just use the singleton banned list, it´s almost the same as the Highlander one.
Dunno why you still decide to run your own, it´s just confusing and not needed.

[MMD]

just use the singleton banned list, it´s almost the same as the Highlander one.
Dunno why you still decide to run your own, it´s just confusing and not needed.

Great idea! I have no knowledge about Singleton at all, but is there any reason not playing Painter/Grindstone all day long? Regrowth and Crucible are also very frightening.  

I think the latest banning/watch list decision is nearly perfect. There are two bigger tournaments in Berlin and Frankfurt this month. We´ll see what will happen. I assume that none of the unbanned cards will break the format and Birthing Pod definately had to go. IMHO there are still some cards left on the banned list to unban, at least for a season.

Keep up the good work council!

P.S. There is one thing to complain. The trials for the Highlander Cup in Frankurt are with the old bannings on the 14th and the tournament itself on the 15th will have the new banning rule which is really bad timing IMO. There are not so many big tournaments but this timing really splits up one of the biggest tournament in 2012.

[Cadaj]

just use the singleton banned list, it´s almost the same as the Highlander one.
Dunno why you still decide to run your own, it´s just confusing and not needed.

Singleton is/was an exclusive Magic Online Format, since a lot of sets arent available in Magic Online some cards and its interactions arent available in Magic Online.

New bannings are good and i dont see any way of strengthening control without changing the mulligan rule (since it benefits Aggro way more than Control), but no reasonable change comes to mind.
Classic control just isnt viable anymore, this is also reflected in the printing policy of Wizards, the new cards are just printed in a way that doesnt allow classic control.

So we just have to deal with the fact that classic control probably wont be Tier 1 ever again.

[DarkLight]

So with the new bannings, we're just gonna leave control neutered and useless and let aggro run rampant?

Some people allways want to grouse ...

[Nastaboi]

P.S. There is one thing to complain. The trials for the Highlander Cup in Frankurt are with the old bannings on the 14th and the tournament itself on the 15th will have the new banning rule which is really bad timing IMO. There are not so many big tournaments but this timing really splits up one of the biggest tournament in 2012.

I see this more as a positive thing. Now you have some real motivation to test and brew new decks and try to catch less prepared opponents off-guard. What could be better for innovation than a big tournament where you could reap rewards before no one else?

[LasH]

Disappointing to see loam again. First games alrdy show that each game is focused on this card again. Horrible mistake in my opinion.

Tbh its good to see unbannings for combo decks but on the other hand the games couldnt be any more boring. So many games played in HLL vs combo and its just boring to battle these decks (So u face Hermit combo - he has his turn 3/4 combo kill or he doesnt, so you face TPS - He plays alone for like 5-10min just to fizzle or kill you). Pattern has so many ways to win and each game is still "unique". This is not true for the new generation.

And now even the "standard" decks play the most frustrating card ever (towards time aspect). Nothing is straining my nerves more than waiting at least 1min till my opponent decides to go into draw step for loam or draw. Then cycle and do the same again.

I really dont understand the explantion of the council. I absolutly dont see how loam does not affect the bord. Till you reach the time to cast a planeswalker you can also have an engine running with loam wich does decent pressure too (manlands, wasteland-effects, fetchland, draw engine with cycle/canopy, maze).

This just pushes green to the color you cannot afford not to run if u wanna play competive. I only see RDW in the competive corner left as non green deck.

[W0lf]

Ah yes forgot that Magic Online cardpool is so limited.
So sry
Still like some decisions they made like banning demonic tutor while allowing enlighted.
Would be nice to have this in HL aswell

[Nastaboi]

Tbh its good to see unbannings for combo decks but on the other hand the games couldnt be any more boring. So many games played in HLL vs combo and its just boring to battle these decks (So u face Hermit combo - he has his turn 3/4 combo kill or he doesnt, so you face TPS - He plays alone for like 5-10min just to fizzle or kill you).

Fortunately, these decks are so bad that they rarely win anything and are thus not widely played. Playing against mono-green Millstone deck is also boring, as is against Dwarves or any other bad deck.

I'd like to hear how you are about to set Loam engine reliably by turn four? Intuition does it effectively but apart from that?

Loam does not affect the board similarily than Concentrate does not affect the board. You get some cards you can play but it does not affect directly on board.

[LasH]

I'd like to hear how you are about to set Loam engine reliably by turn four

As soon as you have it in your starthand. How do you put a planeswalker reliable on turn 4? Only if u draw it. I dont know where i said something about turn 4 (because the best planeswalker cost 4 mana? And even then according to your own explanation you will need protection for it - so other cards are included)
But even if you really understand it in that way i know many scenario's in which you can build up a solid loam engine till turn 4 (crop rotation/sylvan scrying/dt/expedition map/mana elv acceleration + cycle land).

Loam does not affect the board similarily than Concentrate does not affect the board. You get some cards you can play but it does not affect directly on board.

Thats debatable. Loam does affect the bord "passiv" as long as you have lands in your graveyard. If you compare loam to other cards compare it to other graveyard based spells or to other recurring spells which concentrate is not. Even if u can "abuse" loam with cycle lands for draw advantage thats just one of the many possibilitys to build up a lock. You cannot build up a lock with concentrate so thats not a card to compare. Cards that build up a lock affect the bord even if you need at least 2 parts (in this case: active card + passiv recurring).

[ChristophO]

Still like some decisions they made like banning demonic tutor while allowing enlighted.

Why? I feel exactly the opposite way. Enlightened Tutor is the faster card. Because you can play it for "free" End of Turn fetching all kinds of ridiculous stuff. Opponent taps out? Go get Back to Basics or Winter Orb. Try doing that with Demonic. It's pretty tough. Being Sorcery speed AND costing 2 mana is a big deal. I believe we all agree that Vampiric Tutor is much much stronger than Demonic Tutor. I strongly believe that the disadvantages of Enlightened Tutor (card disadvantage, have to reveal, only enchantment/artifact) are more than compensated by it's advantages (instant speed, mana cost) in most decks.

Regarding Loam:
I believe the card plays a lot smoother in real magic. I agree that board presence has become more important and that the council has commented on my questions in the loam thread in their explanations. Thanks! While I am still somewaht doubtful about the benefit of the card for the format I also have to put up some trust into the decisions of the council. Most of them have been sensible in the past. Maybe I am wrong about Loam and if not I can live with it ;-) .

Regarding Yawgmoth's Will:
I personally like the unbanning of Yawgmoth's Will but have already heard and read huge rants about it and such an "idiotic" decision. I think it is important to stress that Will is a lategame bomb that will often also be resolved as a small card advantage spell enabling a land drop, and 1 or 2 spells from the yard because most decks lack fast mana to do more broken stuff. I do not believe a winning storm deck list will show up now with LED still missing but I believe Will is going to see play in Midrange and Control decks as a card adavantage tool which I like because I remember using WIll like that in Type 2 ~2001. It is tough to abuse Will without playsets of the good Rituals and a bunch of tutors.

Regarding Dread Return:
I strongly believe we will see a dedicated Dread Return Deck win prizes in the coming Grand Highlander Prix's (I think this is an awesome solution to the naming problem). The deck has some consistency issues and folds HARD against non basic hate but the stronger draws are unbeatable for most sluggish 4c Midrange decks. I would like to point out that I have already achieved a single T2 kill in a OL practice game using Nomad en-Kor + Illusionist. While I really enjoyed this my opponent was kind of pissed. I would also like to point out that with Dread Return unbanned the Breakfast Combo can be considered more powerful than Painter + Grindstone because the kill is 3 mana cheaper while both pieces are also of the same type so that more tutors for both pieces can be shared and there are also quite a few replacements for Nomads en-Kor: Shuko, Shaman en-Kor (2CC for transmute) and even more en-Kors.

   
   

[DarkLight]

Disappointing to see loam again. First games alrdy show that each game is focused on this card again. Horrible mistake in my opinion.

And now even the "standard" decks play the most frustrating card ever (towards time aspect). Nothing is straining my nerves more than waiting at least 1min till my opponent decides to go into draw step for loam or draw. Then cycle and do the same again.

I really dont understand the explantion of the council. I absolutly dont see how loam does not affect the bord. Till you reach the time to cast a planeswalker you can also have an engine running with loam wich does decent pressure too (manlands, wasteland-effects, fetchland, draw engine with cycle/canopy, maze).

This just pushes green to the color you cannot afford not to run if u wanna play competive. I only see RDW in the competive corner left as non green deck.

Life from the Loam will not push controldecks to be competitive enough, it will be the same like before the ban 4-5c Goodstuffpiles will abuse it for boring games.

Tbh its good to see unbannings for combo decks but on the other hand the games couldnt be any more boring. So many games played in HLL vs combo and its just boring to battle these decks (So u face Hermit combo - he has his turn 3/4 combo kill or he doesnt, so you face TPS - He plays alone for like 5-10min just to fizzle or kill you). Pattern has so many ways to win and each game is still "unique". This is not true for the new generation.

We will see at the upcomming tournaments how effective it is really but in HLL it was really hard/boring to play against these decks.

[MMD]

IMHO there is no big advantage of Loam unbanned (besides a shorter banned list) but I neither see a big problem Loam hurting the format. Loam IS boring when the engine works but I expect that the situations where you have the time to set it up will be more rarely than during the old loam era. Time will show.

Regarding Dread Return:
I strongly believe we will see a dedicated Dread Return Deck win prizes in the coming Grand Highlander Prix's (I think this is an awesome solution to the naming problem). The deck has some consistency issues and folds HARD against non basic hate but the stronger draws are unbeatable for most sluggish 4c Midrange decks. I would like to point out that I have already achieved a single T2 kill in a OL practice game using Nomad en-Kor + Illusionist. While I really enjoyed this my opponent was kind of pissed. I would also like to point out that with Dread Return unbanned the Breakfast Combo can be considered more powerful than Painter + Grindstone because the kill is 3 mana cheaper while both pieces are also of the same type so that more tutors for both pieces can be shared and there are also quite a few replacements for Nomads en-Kor: Shuko, Shaman en-Kor (2CC for transmute) and even more en-Kors.

I agree Cephalid Combo is much stronger but you need to build your deck focused on this (and some other) combo(s). Painter/Stone will nicely fit into Goodstuff Strategies, like it did a couple of years ago. Even without Survival/Pod there are enough ways to search your integrated combokill quite comfortable while ramping and/or beating face in the meantime. Currently I am looking forward having Cephalid Breakfast back in the the metagame as this is another axis to attack Goodstuff decks.