New bannings I / 2012

[Nastaboi]

Have you guys ever tried to adapt to a metagame? Broken decks warp metagame around them and still keep winning and probably need something banned. However, I believe that these cards or decks you are already complaining about even before you see how the metagame will shape with them can be handled by just building your deck a bit differently or switching decks. You are not supposed to play the same 100 cards for years and hope to do well with them, you have to adapt.

[Kristian]

So with the new bannings, we're just gonna leave control neutered and useless and let aggro run rampant?

Some people allways want to grouse ...

Yeah because everyone want to play magic by only turning creatures sideways over and over and over and over...

[LasH]

Have you guys ever tried to adapt to a metagame? Broken decks warp metagame around them and still keep winning and probably need something banned. However, I believe that these cards or decks you are already complaining about even before you see how the metagame will shape with them can be handled by just building your deck a bit differently or switching decks. You are not supposed to play the same 100 cards for years and hope to do well with them, you have to adapt.

I really respect you alot but "adapting" to the metagame is a really sad argument.

Would you say this to the players of the "Caw-Blade" Standard-Format too? Yes we play an eternal format with lot more possibilitys to "adapt" but some cards are just silly (And still we have only about 3 playable tier1 decks considering top8 lists). You could also say unban tolarian academy and adapt to the artifacts by playing more artifact hate. Is this the way to go on? Because then we dont need a banlist anymore.I dont see any list which is running the same 100 cards for years and i think nobody wanna do that even if it would be possible.

And for me the only lists that have to adapt are control decks. So far no aggro deck had to adapt to anything in the last years. Do they have to adapt to loam? You alrdy said it in your statement: no.

So once again this adapt thing will only hurt control decks because in the long run, you have to handle loam.

[coldcrow]

The problem is that there are no control tools to unban and there is no way all spells-on-legs get the axe. So catch-all keeper like control won't come back to HL at all. Decks like MBC, UW have weaknesses, but are quite good at beating several decks.
Worldly and ElaCall should be strongly considered for a ban though, since they can fetch threats/answers/wins at instant speed for 1/2 mana.

LED should be unbanned too, as far as I have tested it the interaction with ywill or draw7s comes up too unreliably and is in no way faster than other combos. I think people only overreact to the rare nuts draw - which every deck possesses btw.

[Maggot]

From my testing so far:
Aggro decks have to adapt by playing GY Hate or they will be loosing to the Dread Return, Scrambeld Eggs lists and Storm, because they can be faster than the aggro nut draws. Goodstuff will add less GY hate because they have more tutors for the same.
Control decks are getting better, because thy already have the tools to fight those decks (removal and counter).
Actually they are not getting better but the meta changes in their favor.

If the council wants some Turn2 combo Kill nut draws, than there is nothing about it one can do, except playing EDH.

[pyyhttu]

I'd be happy if combo decks would emerge being that one turn faster than aggro decks.

Aggro decks have to adapt by playing GY Hate or they will be loosing to the Dread Return, Scrambeld Eggs lists and Storm, because they can be faster than the aggro nut draws.

They can, but how often?

If possible, could you post your aggro and combo deck lists you used in your test game gauntlets? Thanks!

[Nastaboi]

Supposed problem: aggro

1. Ban cards so that combo gets better
2. Control gets better as it beats combo
3.
4. Profit

[LasH]

1. Just ban worldy + eladamri's call
2. Stop dominance of spells-on-legs
3. 
4. All archetypes are competive (we might even see a moat again vs a non flying aggro meta lol)

[Nastaboi]

Unfortunately the best spells-on-legs are just great value cards (Mystic Clique Sower Huntmaster Finks Flametongue etc) that it doesn't really matter which one you draw to get an edge over opponent. Critical mass of those have already been reached. Thus banning creature tutors won't do much on stopping them.

[LasH]

They stop the consistent/permanent answers to cards like moat, collective restraint, oath etc. And thats just one example.

You know why nobody plays sylvan tutor?

[Nastaboi]

Because Sylvan Tutor is a bad card. So is Collective Restraint. Look, I know Worldly and Eladamri's are good and powerful cards, but I don't think they are the keys to goodstuff's success. Were there no Stoneforge Mystic, I wouldn't play Worldly in non-combo decks as card disadvantage it provides is not insignificant.

[Kassow-Rossing]

Loam is not a problem. At least not yet. Loam is not deciding games any longer and it's not a slow draw-engine any longer. Gifts is long gone.
And if Loam turns out to be a problem anyways: Ban Intuition, which already is a powerful tutor spell and problem is solved.



Yawgmoth's Will is a seriously strong card in most formats. In Highlander there is no real abuse for it yet so I see no problem here. I doubt it'll ever get banned again.



I think perhaps Stoneforge should get banned. I completely trust the HL Council's decision in 6 months.

[MMD]

They stop the consistent/permanent answers to cards like moat, collective restraint, oath etc. And thats just one example.

This is also my point of view. Even if we could not stop the creature power creep we could crop good stuff´s flexibility or at least increase diversity which is an important HL topic IMHO.

Everyone and his mother playing 4-5C goodstuff with 1-2 silver bullet creature against a certain deck type which is mostly sufficient because of the available tutor package. With Birthing Pod gone there is one less tutor to find this silver bulett which is one step into the right direction. The power creep on creatures will not avoid mighty 187 creatures in future but I assume that they will not print cards like Worldly Tutor ever again.

Possible math: 4 slots each against aggro, control and combo
today: 2 creatures each plus Worldly Tutor and Eldamri´s Call = 8 slots instead of either up to 12 slots or a higher vulnerability against a certain threat
(I don´t want to go into detail regarding other Tutors and deck types here)

As a side effect you will also decrease the number of Stoneforge Mystic´s per deck and will also force Tier 2 creatures (and/or Tutors) back into the maindeck. The Highlander concept whould have been strengthend because you will not see only Stoneforge/Batterskull/Kitchen Finks but also Loxodon Hierarch & Co again.

The Council has already stated the Worldly Tutor is on the watch list and I would even put Eladamri´s Call on it as well. Regarding card power level there should certainly be Demonic Tutor (and Mana Drain) on it as well, but this is another story and I would not start this discussion again as I agree that these cards could be vital for the "remaining" control decks in HL.

[DarkLight]

From my testing so far:
Aggro decks have to adapt by playing GY Hate or they will be loosing to the Dread Return, Scrambeld Eggs lists and Storm, because they can be faster than the aggro nut draws. Goodstuff will add less GY hate because they have more tutors for the same.
Control decks are getting better, because thy already have the tools to fight those decks (removal and counter).
Actually they are not getting better but the meta changes in their favor.

If the council wants some Turn2 combo Kill nut draws, than there is nothing about it one can do, except playing EDH.

True words

1. Just ban worldy + eladamri's call
2. Stop dominance of spells-on-legs
3. 
4. All archetypes are competive (we might even see a moat again vs a non flying aggro meta lol)

Yeah take all interaction away from aggro to handle anything, aggro only need to draw from the top?

I think perhaps Stoneforge should get banned. I completely trust the HL Council's decision in 6 months.

Yeah it's really hard to play artifact or creature removal?!


The banlist changes are official since 5 days and all people still flame that aggro is still overpowered? You all tested that much?

[coldcrow]

It would force g/w/x aggro to play more non-creature answers, which, by the way, other decks have to do aswell to deal with creatures but have no instant tutors for.

The point of these discussions is to balance out the meta, not to defend petdecks or strategies. For example alot of people get upset about the yawgwin turn. But somehow it is ok when pattern wins with a rector into pattern. They only difference is that the yawg player will probably go into solitaire mode for a few minutes.
Also the aformentioned nut-draws. For it is seemingly ok to go T1 hierarch, T2 qasali, establish a board presence and have one answer on board already and maybe holding daze/pierce/force, but on the other hand NOT ok if a combo player goes off Turn 3. Which is also not common at all.