Bannings II / 2012, October 15th

[Doks]

Hello everyone.


Once I read the news in this thread, I immediately thought that these bannings will cause a lot of discussion again (which is not a bad thing).

Things that personally interest me the most:


- Enlightened Tutor unbanned:

Hell yes, I really like this decision! While it opens more possibilities for almost every archetype, the currently 'weaker' ones like heavy control, stax and to a certain degree combo will probably benefit more from it than creature based strategies which in the end should be a very good thing for the format.
I'm not even that worried about pushing Oath based decks with this unbanning since it's 'only' one really strong card and it was not like Oath dominated one Top8 after the other.

- Demonic Tutor on watchlist:

I strongly disagree with this decision. Paired with good old Mana Drain, DT is one of the very few left 'true' control staples
that let the archetype keep up with stronger and stronger creatures.
I'm not saying that he's only run in pure control decks (obviously every deck playing black will probably run him), but from my experience, he is rather used to find answers than getting a threat itself, so all in all a somewhat 'more defensive' spell. I have no problem with 'igniting a discussion' as the council's explanation was given, but I'm seriously worried about a real ban in the upcoming spring.

- Mystical Tutor on watchlist:

A very good, although only logical follow up to the Wordly Tutor watchlist placement and unbanning of E. Tutor. M. Tutor will most likely replace stuff like Mystical Teachings or Intuition in decks that can't abuse the latter to its fullest. However, I don't think it will push Miracle stuff over the top. If people really wanted to abuse Miracle cards, they could have already done it with Personal Tutor that we currently almost never see.


- Tutor policy:

In general, I think the council has done a pretty good job with this october's decisions. It's only kind of 'fair' to unban the other Mirage Tutors when the arguably strongest (Wordly Tutor because of the power creep level) one is legal for years now while the problems its strengths brings are so obvious.


Your thoughts? Kind regards,

Doks

[Dreamer]

My deck just got placed on the watchlist.
I doubt Pattern would survive if Worldy, Demonic and Order got axed. Something similar might be doable as a grindy recursion toolbox thing,but...

The unbans seem good and reasonable. As mentioned, nearly any white deck can use Enlightened Tutor for some purposes.

On the motivations of the Demonic watchlisting - that is, discussiona bout tutoring in the format - I have to say that playing Pattern has been thoroughly enjoyable precisely because of the tutoring power the deck has access to. It gives a feeling of being in control of your own fate, gives the ability to choose different gameplans and adds a bit of consistency. In general, it makes me feel that my losses are nearly always my own fault for misjudging the game state and tutoring for the wrong thing.
The fact that Pattern mostly deals in creatures probably helps here - it sets a minimum threshold for the prices of most effects (contrast Worldy for Pridemage vs. Mystical for Vandalblast or the like), and the permanent-based nature of the combos gives opponents a bit more room to interact than with spell-based combo. Also gives me a bit of presence on the board, which is nice. I would be sad to see this kind of control over your own gameplan go away.

[carte_blanche]

@Unban: So we're making a step towards more combo... not that I had any problem with that decision. Maybe it's the right thing to do against too many decks without any plan and playing just the good cards (no offense meant @ goodstuff players, just a personal opinion). That in turn might strengthen the control strategies by two reasons: First these decks are able to find their (at times very specific) answers more easily. Secondly because I suspect that a proper control deck could deal more easily with a combo opponent than a deck without a real plan (that beats pure control with a load of "must be handeled"-cards). So I hope for a "metashift" that favors control decks a bit.

Maybe the goodstuff players are forced to build their decks along a certain direction (e.g. tempo) on the long term, what I really would appreciate.

@Mystical Tutor: I have to admit, that I'm a bit afraid of that card. Eot Mystical into crazy stuff is quite a deal. The difference about the tutor targets the mirage tutors search is: Enlightened and Worldly Tutor search for permanents, so you have a chance to deal with the tutor targets later on (the damage might be dealt already, but still...). The target of Mystical Tutor is on the stack once and is gone. If you can not react directly to the spell, the game might be over.
So my feelings about this card are abivalent. On one hand: Might push control / combo further (if need be) on the other hand I'm a bit afraid of a one mana "I win" instant. Hard to tell what would happen... maybe one has to give it a try, though.

That brings me to Demonic Tutor: In general I agree to Doks. Taking up the argument about "splashing black just for Demonic" is a thing to be... worried. But many multicolor lists do the same with two or three colors - just a slight splash for this creature and that spell. Maybe that becomes more complicated when Enlightened Tutor -> Back to Basics is more common? So I'd say: It's okay to keep an eye on that card but the decision has to be made in half a year when we know better if the card is a severe problem.

@Natural Order: Comparing the card to Tinker is what I do the whole time but everybody said: "Noooo, it costs one more mana - and it searches just for a creature. That's by far not as strong."
Maybe that's a bit provoking, but either ban Natural Order or unban Tinker - for the sake of a completely broken format or the opposite. -> Nay, just let's ban Natural Order. That's at least my opinion.

Summa summarum: Thubs up for the bans unbans so far. Good work (as usual, I should add.)

[Dreamer]

Natural Order is not even close to Tinker. The mana dorks usually used to fuel it are roughly ten million times more vulnerable than using Signets or the like to ensure a Turn 3 Tinker (which you can then even protect with Spell Pierce and friends. Let alone it's blue so Daze works even more easily).
Plus you can get a Turn 3 Tinker unaccelerated in some rare cases. It's true that Natural Order targets are growing in power and versatility, but the spell itself is much, much weaker than Tinker. The card is very strong, no doubt, but Tinker is another deal entirely.

[ChristophO]

The cost and protection differences are neglectable between Natural Order and Tinker. You can always just play blue and green and protect NO just as easily as Tinker. I also think that Staxx decks do not typically play Daze and Spell Pierce, but UGx aggro control decks do. In fact I believe Counter back for NO would be more likely because of the exisiting deck types.
Both cards are extremely powerful. It feels strange to have one banned and the other not regarding cards such as Primeval Titan and Progenitus as possible creature targets.

I am not a big fan of noncreature permanents that completely wreck certain deck types once resolved like Back to Basics, Blood Moon, Winter Orb, Oath of Druids, Moat, Humility AND Enlightned Tutor in the format at the same time. All these cards can wreck the game by themselves if deployed by turn 4 AND given the opportunity to search for them at the end of turn for cheap.

I do not mind spell combination decks and tutors for those decks because these decks can not afford to also play a game of board control. They are not the most interactive decks but they make life hard for sluggish midrange goodstuff decks but have a harder time against real aggro decks with a quicker clock. They also have to worry more and more about the increasing numbers of hate bear creatures WotC keeps printing which can easily be included in many creature decks if such a spell combination deck would post some strong results. Spell combination decks also have to fight a lack of fast mana in the highlander format which severly diminishes the spell combination deck "goldfish" speed. Tehrefore it is good that LED as fast mana for spell combo decks has been unbanned which has almost no other uses.

Demonic tutor is a powerful card but not overpowered to find haymakers. Many times it is just a fair tutor for an answer card. It should absolutely not be banned, especially after the unbanning of Enlightended Tutor and the possible unban of Mystical tutor which are both far better at finding those game ending cards than demonic tutor because they are both cheaper and have instant speed to boot.

Quick aside:
---------------
If I were to make bannings, I would be inclined to better the format by testing the following changes:
a) either weakening Natural Order by banning Primeval Titan or banning Natural Order
b) weakening Multi color mana bases (limit fetchland number to 3 or 5 or ban them all) AND throw out the stupid non basic hate (Blood moon, BtB)at the same time
c) ban Workshop
d) unban the same stuff which might be unbanned soon/has just been unbanned

Ideally the Oath of druids and 5c Staxx/Control decks would loose power because their mana bases would be a bit slower and 2 color aggro  and aggro control decks would be competitive again.
-----------------------------------------------------------

So I kind of like these Ban list changes because of d)

[Kristian]

Why would you make control decks worse when they're not viable from a competetive point of view?

[berlinballz]

Hello everyone,

@ Mystical Tutor / Personal Tutor

Doks is right and we haven't seen Personal Tutor alot, although I really don't know why.
(some people still don't play Gitaxian Probe, so maybe progress just takes time)

Maybe it just wasn't strong enough, but it is now thanks to Supreme Verdict.

Control has gotten stronger lately, especially U/W.

The thought of decks that play Entreat the Angels, Supreme Verdict (maybe even Bonfire of the Damned) and Personal Tutor is not nice.

Personal Tutor now does pretty much everything.

Therefore my prediction is that Mystical Tutor can never be unbanned. Powercreep or not, there is not one
creature in Magic that matches what "Mystical Tutor" would do. I'd rather assume, that Personal Tutor
will have to go on the watchlist.

Ufortunately it's not in my nature to play control, so I'm just stressed out by the Personal-Tutor-Future.

I want Birthing Pod back.

Cheers. HL IS AWESOME!

[haju]

As much as I like the changes of the Banned List, I dislike the changes of the Watch List. I think Demonic Tutor shouldn't be there, but not because of its "untouchable" status, more because it's not strong enough to be banned. After all this is what's the Watch List is for. To point out cards which might be banned the next time bannings are announced. I've listed some reasons here.

Mystical Tutor needs to be watched extremely closely. In combination with Miracle-Cards it can be devastating. Comparing this to Personal Tutor is not a valid move, as Personal Tutor is a sorcery. Which gives me some time (of course the worst case scenario is: Play Personal Tutor, put Entreat the Angles on top and play something that draws a card in your opponents next turn).

Natural Order shouldn't be on the Watch List, too. It's a quite expensive way to cheat a green creature into play. There are strategies (Reanimator) which are way better, faster and have way more "unfair" creatures.

[GoblinPiledriver]

Enlighted Tutor:
I find this card problematic: It enables strong hoser cards like Back to Basic, Blood Moon and Winter Orb. I think this will made Matches less fun, if such cards appear more often. The other extrem overpowered Card is Oath of Druids on MTG-Pulse it appears 8 times, but not on the Top 8 Decks on the last Grand Prix's. Enlighted Tutor will appear often but I dont know if really Control-Decks would more appear with it. I think the format will suffer more than it brings more diversion.


Lion's Eye Diamond:
A pure Combo card. Now we have several combo cards enabled for TPS: Yawgmoth's Will, Enlighted Tutor and Lion'S Eye Diamond. This will lead that Combo will appear more often, but that will lead to less interactive games. I don't know if it's really the way it should be.


Demonic Tutor:
This card is banned in several formats like Singelton and Legacy. Only here it's allowed, it's drasticly undercosted. I don't have anything against tutoring but you have to pay the price for it and 1B is much too low. This card is mentioned earlier as a joker and especially here in 100 card format the effect is much better than in Legacy where it is banned.


Natural Order:
It would had been banned earlier if it would cost 2G, the double green mana is the only thing which keeps the card seemly balanced. Today it's usually played with Primeval Titan which gives massive card advantage with Wasteland, Maze of Ith and Volrath's Stronghold. Normally the game is almost over when it hit one time. In most cases the adavantage couldn't be equalized.


Stoneforge Mystic:
This card is banned in Singelton and  Modern. This creature leads to an huge amount of played Batterskull, Sword of Fire and Ice, and Sword of Feast and Famine. The Stoneforge Mystic gives the right equipment for the right situation for very less mana, it reduces the needed mana for the equipment(drasticly) and it wears the equipment by itself. This combination makes this creature much too good. It would be better for the format if the people need to draw at random the needed euipment, or search for it for more mana cost than 1W. Only because the Stoneforge Mystic exist, Batterskull and the 2 most played Swords are played that much often.  


Wordly Tutor:
This card should only be banned because it cost one green? More popular than Worldly Tutor is Eladamri's Call (93/181), Green Sun's Zenith(105/181) and Fauna Shaman(91/181). Worldly Tutor is only played 47 times. So the question is is is too good? With Worldly Tutor you loose one card thats why its played only 47 times. If the Highlander Council want to decrease cheap tutor amount why not ban Eladamris's Call. I think this would be more effective, but sure i wouldn't be sad if Worldly Tutor would be vanished.


Mystical Tutor:
This card is banned in legacy. This card gives acces to an extreme amount of cards(unlike Enlighted Tutor), and with Miracle this would dominate the format very quick. I think the format would suffer much with Mystical Tutor. Personal Tutor on the other hand is also good but not too strong, the opponent is warned one turn before and only Sorcery's could be searched. This makes Personal Tutor much more balanced than Mystical Tutor.


Summary
In General I think it's better for the format to ban more cards than less. This would make the format more diverse and would create more room for deck construction and other cards. If you have so much Highlander staples there isn't much room left for other cards.

[Vazdru]

Thx piledriver.

Would like to read more feedback of the community, esp. concerning watchlist-cards and if there is any experience with those cards yet. Thx in advance.

[Tiggupiru]

Enlighted Tutor:
I find this card problematic: It enables strong hoser cards like Back to Basic, Blood Moon and Winter Orb. I think this will made Matches less fun, if such cards appear more often. The other extrem overpowered Card is Oath of Druids on MTG-Pulse it appears 8 times, but not on the Top 8 Decks on the last Grand Prix's. Enlighted Tutor will appear often but I dont know if really Control-Decks would more appear with it. I think the format will suffer more than it brings more diversion.

I wish this would see more Blood Moon and Back to Basics action going and I think they will, but the mana is still way too good and the chances to run against hate is way too slim for it to make a huge difference. And Oath is pretty horrible card. Sure, it looks powerful and the effect is actually very sick, but by playing the card you are giving up on great utility guys the format has to offer. No Sakura-Tribe Elders, no Snapcaster Mages, Vendilion Cliques, Kitchen Finks... etc. Unless you play it just to gain some value in some control deck and the ability is suddenly much less sick. It only becomes a problem if there is a consistent combo-kill with the Oath.

My take on the E. Tutor? I like this unbanning, I am little bit biased because this basically goes into all of my decks, but the card eats a draw step and it gives control-combo more consistency. I do recognize the power and would keep this in the watchlist for longer than one cycle no matter what the results, but Winter Orb or Blood Moon are just awful arguments. I've lost to the Winter Orb once, and then I learned from my mistake and took it out of my deck.

Mystical Tutor:
This card is banned in legacy. This card gives acces to an extreme amount of cards(unlike Enlighted Tutor), and with Miracle this would dominate the format very quick. I think the format would suffer much with Mystical Tutor. Personal Tutor on the other hand is also good but not too strong, the opponent is warned one turn before and only Sorcery's could be searched. This makes Personal Tutor much more balanced than Mystical Tutor.

Miracle would dominate? You mean all of the two playable miracle cards for control would immediately warp the whole format into anti-miracle and miracle decks? Have you even played this format?

My take on Mystical: I feel that this is less powerful than Enlightened in this format. HL revolves more around the battlefield than Legacy, so sacrificing one card to tutor for a spell is much less of a problem. I feel this works beautifully as a reactive control card. You use this to find answers, rather than doing anything broken that Enlightened potentially could allow. Gifts is banned and Fact or Fiction is too slow to be scary. Of course there is a possibility we see the critical mass of good combo cards to make a consistent TPS, but there is no way knowing if that's even possible in todays meta until it happens so worrying about that doesn't seem too productive.

My opinions for the other cards:

Lion's Eye Diamond: I don't see this as a problem right now. If there is some sick combo deck, then at least we get good documentation of the problem rather than just leave it banned "just in case".

Demonic is just the sickest. It's the best card in the format and the only reason not to play it is the fact it's black and black is a horrible color in eternal formats. Granted, that's a pretty compelling argument, but it doesn't make the card any less dumb. Banning this is an interesting proposal. Right now the banned list doesn't make any sense considering the tutors. Vampiric banned, but Demonic legal? Better yet, Mystical banned but Demonic legal? I honestly have no idea what is better for the format, but right now the situation is a mess. Doesn't mean it's bad, but it's kinda hard to explain to an outsider why the things are the way they are.

Stoneforge I have no problem with, but I don't really play decks which automatically fold to it, so my opinion hardly matters here.

Worldly Tutor is perfectly fine. As long as Demonic is in the format, this is more than okay in comparison.

Fast Natural Order into Titan is beatable, but not easy. It requires removal and you still come up short out of the deal, but you are still in the game. Then again, fast Jace is pretty much the same story. It does not warp the format, it's not automatic inclusion in the green decks and there are some risks in running it. I really don't think we don't need to ban every card that people sometimes lose to.

[LasH]

Quote: 20-04-2011 If at all something must be done, then it is to nerf creature-based aggro.

Nothing else.

About the Watchlist.

Demonic tutor is not as powerfull as any other instant tutor. Instant reacting is much more powerful, demonic is usually at least one turn later. This makes it a slow reactive card. There is no autowin card out there to tutor, but alot of spells on legs to tutor eot to handle anything on the bord with body.
Question about the tutoring: Why is nobody playing sylvan tutor? Because its sorcery speed.

Sorcery Speed tutors are balanced in HL.

You want a healthy format? Stop unbanning combo cards. Stop unbanning broken cards. Not even the most broken cards in the format (oath/workshop/jar/ywill etc) can actually constantly or effective stop the creature dominance. Start BANNING, not UNBANNING.

Ban all instant tutor's (eladamri's call, worldy, enlightened)
Start banning problematic creatures (Stoneforge Mystic - 2 years to late)

To quote goblinpiledriver: It would be better for the format if the people need to draw at random the needed SPELLS, or search for it for more mana cost than 1X at INSTANT speed.

Who cares to have a long banlist? Rather a longer banlist with deck difference than a short one with 1 archetype dominating each tournament and combo decks around who can explode turn 2 or do nothing. Who has fun playing only mirror's or to face T2-4 combo decks in HL?

[Doks]

Quote: 20-04-2011 If at all something must be done, then it is to nerf creature-based aggro.

Nothing else.

About the Watchlist.

Demonic tutor is not as powerfull as any other instant tutor. Instant reacting is much more powerful, demonic is usually at least one turn later. This makes it a slow reactive card. There is no autowin card out there to tutor, but alot of spells on legs to tutor eot to handle anything on the bord with body.
Question about the tutoring: Why is nobody playing sylvan tutor? Because its sorcery speed.

Sorcery Speed tutors are balanced in HL.

This explains what I was trying to say with the term "defensive tutor" in the opening post, just better. Thank you very much.


On another note, after some further discussions with friends, I'm still of the opinion that Stoneforge Mystic is unhealthy for the format. It's probably not blatantly broken and overpowered like certain other cards, but stupidly strong and especially retarded as a T2 drop on the play. It let's the game completely revolve around it and the threat of the equipment it brings. Either have an answer or die, doesn't matter if you're playing a more aggroish or controlish archetype. In addition, Batterskull is only run because of Stoneforge Mystic which is just dumb.


Regarding Mystical Tutor, I wish for one of two possibilites in the future of which I prefer the first:

1. M. Tutor stays banned and Wordly Tutor gets banned.
2. Wordly Tutor stays unbanned and M. Tutor gets unbanned.

Today's creatures grant the W. Tutor player an incredible toolbox. Grant this to non-creature based decks, too, or permit it for both archetypes.

[MMD]

My cents regarding the changes:


All competitive Tutors in HL – in general -
I dislike the Mirage Tutors, Demonic Tutor and Eldadamri´s Call and would like to see that they get the axe.

The reason behind my request is not the sole power level, which I think is acceptable in comparison to the creature power creep nowadays. I think they are bad for the format because they bypass the 100/1 rule in a very playable and competitive way. All of these tutors lead to an increase of ever recurring play pattern which is IMO boring on the long run in an eternal 100/1 format.

Just take the example of the deck to beat: UGwb Good stuff:

This deck will play all of the above mentioned tutors which will lead to a deck with 2-3 copies of the best situational cards in your deck (or even 3-4 copies of format defining cards like Stoneforge Mystic). The deck will just have place for a handful of pet/test cards with the remaining cards written in stone (manabase + best creatures/spell of each colour + 5 Tutors).

You do not need a strategy beside the rule to play the best cards available in HL. You simply overpower the opponent with cards which are just better then his cards. In case the opponent drops a problematic card you just use one of the several copies of the specific answer and go on with your good-stuff-strategy (e.g. Shriekmaw/Oblivion Ring/StP plus the 5 Tutors against a resolvea d Baneslayer Angel). The argument is not only valid for finding answers put also for questions. If you tutor early you "draw" one of your "four" Stoneforge Mystics. If you tutor late you "draw" one of your "four" Primeval Titans.

I don't think this is the "Soul" of a true Highlander format and would appreciate to let them go - BAN them all!

Lion's Eye Diamond – I am not frightend at the moment. I would like to see a winning deck list with this card. But certainly a powerful card which could be deck defining. - Watchlist

Natural Order – There are several "if´s" which have to apply before this card wins you a game. And with so many "if´s" it is OK for me when a card does win a game in the end. A four mana sorcery speed spell is also not easy to protect/force through. Main target is Primeval Titan and there is a certain chance to win the game against this card when only the CIP trigger resolves - Watchlist

Stoneforge Mystic – This card is format defining and perhaps the best creature in the format but it will not win you the game by itself. I see this card problematic only together with all of the tutors currently available. Alone it is just a very good card like many other cards in this format. - Watchlist

Following cards should also be on the watchlist IMO:

Imperial Seal - based on power level and disregarding price issues (but I am very fine with this card banned, even with having one copy of this card sleeping in my binder)

Umezawa´s Jitte - based on the power level of the card itself - ONLY when the creature tutors get banned

Mana Drain - most powerful card in HL if you can afford UU. A game ending card for 2 Mana should not be allowed.

...finally I would like to stress the Fetchland/Dual Land issue once again 

[delta_strike]

Personally, I think that it is a really bad idea to ban tutors.
because tutors ensure that you get a greater variety of deck types. You will also get more fun and longer games.

If I think about not playing with turtors, I think that the games will be boring and it will be something like. The person who draws the best card first from the top wins or the one who gets the best card on the table first win, because you can`t search for any answers.


it's just my opinion.