Bannings II / 2012, October 15th

[W0lf]

don`t be mad i just wanted to give you a useful tip,invest more time in playing the game and you will find ways how to deal with various cards.
Bannings cannot be the solution for a lack of experience, thats´s the whole point.

[Dreamer]

~100% of my Magic playtime for the last several years. Lack of experience, yessir...

Observations on the traits of mana bases != I can't beat some mana base. (mana base, forgodssake!)
There are incentives, the fetchban was/is being tested because it was thought to help with some of these problems. Turns out, it doesn't solve the most pressing issues thus far. That's all there is to it. And even if you assume I am bad, testing the ban has been supported by people that ARE certainly good players. So, yeah. STFU.

[W0lf]

ah so you agree this whole banning discussion was pointless? thank you sir 

[Dreamer]

No, I do not. That the discussion/testing doesn't change the status quo doesn't mean it was useless. We now know more than we did before, which is good.

[Madsam]

I like the idea of attacking the mana base with bannings, but I feel like it pushes mono red and mono white over the top. Of course you can still run UW Control, which is a really strong deck and is not hurt much with such bannings. In fact most 2 color control decks are not hurt much (this is what Deeamer stated previously I think). Those Fetchland banned tournaments are a quite interesting approach and I really like to see some more results before I am convinced about those bans.
The option, banning the old duals is also an interesting idea, but being dealt even more damage for mana fixing will only benefit mono red as well. Especially when the opponent is forced to play untapped lands to make a move against a deck this aggressive.

[Dreamer]

Monored becoming stronger is not a problem. What is a problem is that currently 3 colour manabases are more stable than 2 colour ones, and also more resilient to hate. Furthermore, fetches lead to more shuffling. A fetch ban does solve the shuffling issue to an extent but it doesn't fix the most grievous issue - 3 colour manabases are apparently still not disadvantaged compared to 2-colour ones. Which is a problem.

It's less of an issue for control - if you don't have fetch-dual-stuff you just can't do the for the hell of it splashes that are optimal, but 2 colour control is still quite stable. With more and more new dual lands being printed 2 colour aggro might eventually become nearly as stable as 3 colour aggro (which has little use for the new lands), but still very vulnerable to hate.

[meteora]

Can we just go back to the tutordiscussion?

I give you a quick summary of tutors i saw being played (noticed):

NATURAL ORDER
needs to go
OATH OF DRUIDS
needs to go - yeah i know we guys from würzburg play it ourselves and we love it but it´s really to strong


STONEFORGE MYSTIC
MIRAGE
DEMONIC
TAINTED PACT
ELADAMRIS CALL
GREEN SUNS ZENITH
do we really want al those cards in our format...
discuss!

[Madsam]

Natural Order is a really strong card, that can win out of nowhere, but I think Tabris has quite a point in his statement (Thoughts about the Current HL-situation thread). It is not always autowin (of course Primeval Titan is a strong card and it is searched in about 90% of the cases) and it is conditional. A turn three sac mana-dude NO into titan or something else IS strong, but even with spoiler mulligan you have this in one of 10 games. I myself am quite neutral about this card. I don't mind if it stays and I'm not unhappy if it goes.
Oath on the other hand deserves a ban. The conditions are just too easy to achieve.
SFM: Again quite neutral, annoying creature, finds strong equipments, enables batterskull if not handled.
The Mirage Tutors are really strong, all but worldly tutor should stay or be banned (the enlightened tutor unban was a mistake imo)
Worldly mostly finds an answer or if played early SFM. Dont think he is too strong, because creatures are the type of cards that are handled the easiest.
Call is again a creature tutor, but one that cantrips. It is stronger than Worldly, but again, "only" finds a creature and most often an answer and not an additional threat.
Green Suns Zenith is fair imo, cause you have to pay quite a lot for stronger creatures. Again, mostly finds answers.
Demonic is quite often the only real argument to play black. Sorcery speed, but again cantrips. Finds combo pieces as well as answers and threats. Combo pieces here includes also a missing spell in a reanimator, not only something for "pure" combo decks. Not quite sure about this one, think the sorcery speed renders him fair.
Tainted Pact: Too situational, many decks that could play him don't it. Again fair imo.